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shrughes
Oct 11, 2008

(call/cc call/cc)
Interestingly enough, we very recently had a candidate who nailed the "Write a function that returns true if a binary tree is a valid binary search tree" question. It turned out that it seems he just already knew the question, because on the follow-up interview, he failed hard.

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gariig
Dec 31, 2004
Beaten into submission by my fiance
Pillbug

shrughes posted:

because on the follow-up interview, he failed hard.

What kind of questions are in the follow up interview?

Freundlich Freund
Jan 29, 2010
Hey guys, great thread it has helped me a lot in trying to prepare for interviews!

My situation at the moment is that I have recently had an interview with a local website design company for a Junior Web Developer role and wondered if I could get some advice on it. I've been offered today a 2 week trial to see if I actually can do the technologies that I say that I can, and then after this - or even earlier - they will offer me a 6-month contract on a £14,000/year salary. After this 6-months (or even earlier) they will review me and most likely give me a pay-rise.

My question is, is this a good deal? I just recently graduated from University with a 2:2 in Computing only 2-3 weeks ago and the jobs I have been applying to (granted they were more London area where it perhaps is more expensive to live) were in the region of £20,000-£25,000 starting salary. I also don't have any commercial experience to note, but did do some freelance where I made a website for a local business from scratch. Considering my (lack of) experience does this all seem reasonable?

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.
Two weeks without pay sounds stupid, get paid for it.

No idea if any of the numbers make sense but don't do a fortnight of free work for a vague promise at maybe getting a six month probationary contract thereafter.

baquerd
Jul 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Freundlich Freund posted:

they will offer me a 6-month contract on a £14,000/year salary. After this 6-months (or even earlier) they will review me and most likely give me a pay-rise.

My question is, is this a good deal?

That's ridiculously low pay if you are remotely competent, and yes get paid for the two weeks. If it comes down to it, take the job with the idea of getting everything you can out of it in a year and move on ASAP.

Freundlich Freund
Jan 29, 2010
Sorry I should of said that I will get minimum wage pay for that two weeks, so that's something. I spoke to a friend who worked in something similar and he said that it was an OK salary for the area that it is based (South West England) and that after those six months I have at least the experience to try and get something better if their new contract isn't as good?

Plorkyeran
Mar 22, 2007

To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed
That still sounds pretty awful, but if you really can't find anything better it's probably better than sitting around unemployed.

tef
May 30, 2004

-> some l-system crap ->
it is hard to judge without more information about the company, location and role.

that said you should be aiming higher - you shouldn't have to go through a trial period on minimum wage as a graduate. and 14k is very very low for a graduate staring salary, or probationary rate.

if every other job you're qualified is paying 6-10k over, then it is pretty obvious they're a lovely place to work. avoid them like the plague.

(and I can't believe they want to pay you minimum wage for two weeks first! that is a total con. the only reasons I can fathom do not reflect well on the employer, and i'd wager they have a significantly high turnover of staff)

Freundlich Freund
Jan 29, 2010
Thanks for your advice guys. I did have a shock when they offered only £14,000 as a starting salary, and obviously seeing other graduate jobs being a lot higher seems a bit strange. However, I have applied to about 10-15 jobs in the past 2 weeks and this has been the only one that has given a reply (bar 2 rejections) and obviously given an interview. So I could either stick it out and reject the job offer and wait to get something better, or do it, get the experience and then use that to my advantage in maybe looking for a new job?

Really hard to decide when it just seems to be deciding between the choice of two evils (low salary <-> unemployment but possible better job).

baquerd
Jul 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Freundlich Freund posted:

Thanks for your advice guys. I did have a shock when they offered only £14,000 as a starting salary, and obviously seeing other graduate jobs being a lot higher seems a bit strange. However, I have applied to about 10-15 jobs in the past 2 weeks and this has been the only one that has given a reply (bar 2 rejections) and obviously given an interview. So I could either stick it out and reject the job offer and wait to get something better, or do it, get the experience and then use that to my advantage in maybe looking for a new job?

Take the job while looking for another job. I looked up your degree and apparently 2:2's are roughly equivalent to a 3.0 in the American system, so with limited postgrad opportunities I can see how it may be rough out there. Practice coding all the time until you are excellent at it.

Edison was a dick
Apr 3, 2010

direct current :roboluv: only

Freundlich Freund posted:

Thanks for your advice guys. I did have a shock when they offered only £14,000 as a starting salary, and obviously seeing other graduate jobs being a lot higher seems a bit strange. However, I have applied to about 10-15 jobs in the past 2 weeks and this has been the only one that has given a reply (bar 2 rejections) and obviously given an interview. So I could either stick it out and reject the job offer and wait to get something better, or do it, get the experience and then use that to my advantage in maybe looking for a new job?

Really hard to decide when it just seems to be deciding between the choice of two evils (low salary <-> unemployment but possible better job).

I initially got a lowball offer of about the same at my current job, expressing concerns that it was below the national average got them to bump it up to £18k. They might have been hoping I was unaware it was a low offer, given graduates may not know what to expect.

Freundlich Freund
Jan 29, 2010

Edison was a dick posted:

I initially got a lowball offer of about the same at my current job, expressing concerns that it was below the national average got them to bump it up to £18k. They might have been hoping I was unaware it was a low offer, given graduates may not know what to expect.

Whereabouts was this (if your hailing from UK that is!)? Also, what was your situation - did you have any other offers for employment and did you have a better/worse qualification than I have at the moment?

Obviously I could try and bargain if they want me for the job after this trial period is over and whether I could use anything to improve the offer they're giving me.

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

Freundlich Freund posted:

Thanks for your advice guys. I did have a shock when they offered only £14,000 as a starting salary, and obviously seeing other graduate jobs being a lot higher seems a bit strange.

That does seem VERY low. My first job as a programmer out of uni was 18k and that was in 1998. (Granted in Oxford, which is a relatively pricy place to live)

Che Delilas
Nov 23, 2009
FREE TIBET WEED

Freundlich Freund posted:

Considering my (lack of) experience does this all seem reasonable?

I tend to think of things like this in the most cynical terms, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, but it sounds like they're trying to get you to work on a specific project for peanuts with the plan of dumping you after it's done, and are dangling the "review for permanent position in 6 months" line in front of you to get you to accept the crappy pay.

And I have to say, the trial period at minimum wage sounds like bullshit and would frankly insult me if I got that kind of offer. If I'm not performing the way an employer expects, then they should fire me, but in the meantime they hired me for a job that requires a certain degree of skill, experience, and/or education and I expect to be compensated appropriately.

I don't know anything about your area and its standard rates and practices, so my only advice would be to really research average salary rates for recent grads in your field, in that area. Talk to your school's career services (or whatever it's called), they should have good data on graduates in your major and their starting salaries. Also check on this trial period thing, see if it's common. It sounds really fishy to me.

Edison was a dick
Apr 3, 2010

direct current :roboluv: only

Freundlich Freund posted:

Whereabouts was this (if your hailing from UK that is!)? Also, what was your situation - did you have any other offers for employment and did you have a better/worse qualification than I have at the moment?

Obviously I could try and bargain if they want me for the job after this trial period is over and whether I could use anything to improve the offer they're giving me.

This was indeed in the UK. I had no other offers for employment, I had the intent to give an offer at another place*. I found out the low offer at my first interview, mentioned it to the interview at the other place and they indeed said it was a low offer, so when I went back to my second interview it might have prompted them.
I did get a 1st class BSc(Hons) in Computer Science from a top 10 UK university, but I had no real experience and not much of a portfolio.


*The actual offer never happened, the Executives went on holiday so I couldn't get a decision from them and by the time they got back the company was bought by HP.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009

I applied for an internship today, just got an email back at 10:30 PM asking if I'd be down for a phone interview tomorrow at 9:30 in the morning.

Talk about last minute notice! I said yes of course, but sheesh. Who even sends business emails on a Sunday?

quote:

Compensation: Stipend will be offered along with potential for equity to be obtained

After looking up the definition of stipend, it SOUNDS like it's paid and then possibly performance payment? Not sure why they wouldn't just say $X/hr. My roommate thinks it might mean like some sort of stock option, or something.

Wish me luck, goons! This bitch needs to be employed.

Ensign Expendable
Nov 11, 2008

Lager beer is proof that god loves us
Pillbug
I got an email a few days ago from a company I gave my resume to. The HR contact said that a hiring manager is interested in interviewing me for a position I mentioned I'm interested in. I replied with my availability, but haven't heard back from them since. What's the etiquette in this case? Should I email them, or should I wait?

Blotto Skorzany
Nov 7, 2008

He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

Sab669 posted:

I applied for an internship today, just got an email back at 10:30 PM asking if I'd be down for a phone interview tomorrow at 9:30 in the morning.

Talk about last minute notice! I said yes of course, but sheesh. Who even sends business emails on a Sunday?


After looking up the definition of stipend, it SOUNDS like it's paid and then possibly performance payment? Not sure why they wouldn't just say $X/hr. My roommate thinks it might mean like some sort of stock option, or something.

Wish me luck, goons! This bitch needs to be employed.

'Stipend' implies a non-hourly non-wage payment and indicates they may be trying to get around minimum wage laws by not calling it a salary

'Equity' refers to stock of some sort, the fact that they offer the "potential" for it is sketchy, and in general sets off alarm bells

All in all it sounds like an early stage startup with unscrupulous (and likely nontechnical) founders trying to get (technical) work (that they cannot do themselves) done for something close to free. I of course am speculating way in advance of the data, but the language used just reeks of sleaze imo

Orzo
Sep 3, 2004

IT! IT is confusing! Say your goddamn pronouns!

Ensign Expendable posted:

I got an email a few days ago from a company I gave my resume to. The HR contact said that a hiring manager is interested in interviewing me for a position I mentioned I'm interested in. I replied with my availability, but haven't heard back from them since. What's the etiquette in this case? Should I email them, or should I wait?
Just a few days? I'd say wait between 1 and 2 weeks then give them an email.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009

Otto Skorzeny posted:

'Stipend' implies a non-hourly non-wage payment and indicates they may be trying to get around minimum wage laws by not calling it a salary

'Equity' refers to stock of some sort, the fact that they offer the "potential" for it is sketchy, and in general sets off alarm bells

All in all it sounds like an early stage startup with unscrupulous (and likely nontechnical) founders trying to get (technical) work (that they cannot do themselves) done for something close to free. I of course am speculating way in advance of the data, but the language used just reeks of sleaze imo

I'm a little weary of it, too :(
It also says they're looking primarily for interns / part time / students / temp workers and "Work from home highly encouraged".

Hell, rather than copy-pasting snippets;
http://providence.craigslist.org/sof/2626411050.html

The guy who emailed me back is Indian, and while the email was worded mostly fine you can tell it's not his first language- so maybe if he posted the job that's why its worded like it is? Doesn't necessarily mean it's NOT shady, but I dunno. Just trying to be optimistic I guess.

Sab669 fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Oct 3, 2011

rjmccall
Sep 7, 2007

no worries friend
Fun Shoe
I wouldn't over-interpret "stipend"; some places just use that word for salaries paid to internships. Equity definitely means some sort of stock / ownership share, but I would treat that as worthless; it's not *insultingly* worthless, but it's definitely not something you should ever count on having value.

gariig
Dec 31, 2004
Beaten into submission by my fiance
Pillbug

Sab669 posted:

Hell, rather than copy-pasting snippets;
http://providence.craigslist.org/sof/2626411050.html

It sounds like the sales or marketing department wrote it plus the requirements are pretty generic. I would say go for it and interview them to make sure everything is on the up and up. Worst case you get a job while looking for a different job.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009

gariig posted:

It sounds like the sales or marketing department wrote it plus the requirements are pretty generic. I would say go for it and interview them to make sure everything is on the up and up. Worst case you get a job while looking for a different job.

Yea, I figure I'll go for it. I'm just I guess quite confused on this whole stipend thing. Would it just be a lump sum at the end of my internship? Cause I can't live without getting paid each week :P

The whole thing feels kind of weird though. Got that email at 10:30 asking for an interview at 9:30 the next day, to which I replied. Got a confirmation email at 7:45 AM today saying something like, "Great, you'll hear from us tonight".


Tonight? I look back at the email he sent last night. The phone interview is for 9:30PM. I either just read it as AM, or assumed it was a type-o. I mean, I guess it doesn't matter? I'll be here either way. That just struck me as an odd time for a phone interview. What are they chances I'm going to get a phone call from some guy out in India? They're 10.5 hours ahead of me- so those times would roughly translate to 8 AM / 6 PM for them, and my interview would be around 7 AM or so I believe.

e; What kind of questions should I be asking these people?

Sab669 fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Oct 3, 2011

MrMoo
Sep 14, 2000

tef posted:

goog tend to hammer people about algorithms in the hiring process.

if you want to avoid learning about algorithms, try applying for jobs of 'middleware developer' :q:

Holy lol, I'm interviewing for developer positions in NYC and coming across this. I'm of a tiny minority of C99 developers who didn't study CS, I have a MEng. in Computer Systems Engineering which obviously no one has an iota of awareness about. My speciality is cross-platform, cross-language middleware development.

I've never actually interviewed for a developer position so it is all quite enlightening. A bit way too many questions focusing on terminology which I have limited knowledge of or just get muddled up with other languages. I signed up for a range of interviews with Bloomberg and ending up with many different processes including a rather poor online test from the BrainBench company SHL. Plenty of dumb questions like what is ++2 && ++2, bonus points for questions assuming an unsigned integer is only 32-bits.

Salaries for these positions allegedly start 120-150 but I can't say that any of the developers in these groups are stunningly high calibre. Expect no skills in building, debugging, testing, performance testing, integration, documentation, or using the software. Follow the classic developer process of: it builds, ship it!

Everyone is asking for multi-threaded programming and low-latency specialities, unfortunately this can be a bit confusing when discussing software I help develop, ØMQ which starts from the foundation that most multi-threading design is highly inefficient and wrong :v:

MrMoo fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Oct 3, 2011

TasteMyHouse
Dec 21, 2006

MrMoo posted:

what is ++2 && ++2

...a compile error?

MrMoo
Sep 14, 2000

I'd just go with developer error, unfortunately not an option.

Another telephone interview tomorrow, last one asked about implementing lockless queues. I'm sure it's just a buzzword bingo competition.

Milotic
Mar 4, 2009

9CL apologist
Slippery Tilde

TasteMyHouse posted:

...a compile error?

Tell me about it. This on the other hand...

code:
    public struct _
    {
        public static implicit operator _(\u0049\u006Et\u00332 @double)
        {
            return new _();
        }

        public static bool operator &(_ @null, _ @float)
        {
            return true;
        }

        public static bool operator &(Func<_> _, Nullable<_> __)
        {
            return true;
        }

        static void Main(string[] async)
        {
            Func<_> _1 = () => new _ { };
            Nullable<_> _2 = null;
            if (_1 & _2)
            {
                Console.WriteLine("Where is your God now?");
            }
        }
    }


pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.

MrMoo posted:

I help develop, ØMQ

What do you do on 0mq? loving love that library.

MrMoo
Sep 14, 2000

The PGM transport, then random bits like IPv6 support, Windows support, and parts of the build system.

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.
Right on, thanks for helping make the magic happen.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009

So, I had that phone interview for the internship last night. Basically it's a start up company that doesn't even have a building. They're not big enough, promote work from home, yadda yadda yadda trying to save money. The two guys I spoke with basically work jobs 9-5 and are trying to start this company at the night time? Sounds kinda shady to me.

As such, they've got the attitude of "we don't care when you work, so long as you work"- they also asked how many hours per week I'd be looking to work, which I didn't like since it's a stipend instead of an actual wage. Overall they liked me and said I'd hear back from them this week, but I don't know if I should take it.

On one hand, if I'm telecomuting and can work whenever, I can maintain my current job and schooling. On the other hand, it could be a complete waste of my time and effort? Though I guess I'm mostly doing it for experience / resume fluff. Also have an interview tomorrow for a full time junior developer position, so...

Pweller
Jan 25, 2006

Whatever whateva.

Sab669 posted:

On one hand, if I'm telecomuting and can work whenever, I can maintain my current job and schooling.

I've participated in projects with similar premise to what you describe, not necessarily shady (though the ad read as shady). Could be a great experience or waste of your time.

For me it would come down to their perceived level of enthusiasm and possible levels of expertise and experience. The project is very likely to be poorly organized if you're all doing your own thing, and its momentum will probably be determined by the weakest team member.

I don't understand all this stipend talk (and internship seems to mean so many different things in the USA), but unless you're getting paid by the hour or some weekly rate that is reasonable for your hours put in don't bother. If it's work that you would be proud of after a couple months while you're concurrently a student, well then that's a whole other story too, couldn't hurt to try it out for a couple weeks.

Orzo
Sep 3, 2004

IT! IT is confusing! Say your goddamn pronouns!

Sab669 posted:

So, I had that phone interview for the internship last night. Basically it's a start up company that doesn't even have a building. They're not big enough, promote work from home, yadda yadda yadda trying to save money. The two guys I spoke with basically work jobs 9-5 and are trying to start this company at the night time? Sounds kinda shady to me.

As such, they've got the attitude of "we don't care when you work, so long as you work"- they also asked how many hours per week I'd be looking to work, which I didn't like since it's a stipend instead of an actual wage. Overall they liked me and said I'd hear back from them this week, but I don't know if I should take it.

On one hand, if I'm telecomuting and can work whenever, I can maintain my current job and schooling. On the other hand, it could be a complete waste of my time and effort? Though I guess I'm mostly doing it for experience / resume fluff. Also have an interview tomorrow for a full time junior developer position, so...
There's not necessarily anything 'shady' about this, but you're right that it could be a waste of time. But it might not be. Sounds like a couple of guys with ideas, which may be great or may be terrible. You should try to find out as much as possible about their ideas and couple that with your personal risk tolerance factor and make a decision about whether it's a risk you want to take.

MrMoo
Sep 14, 2000

MrMoo posted:

Another telephone interview tomorrow, last one asked about implementing lockless queues. I'm sure it's just a buzzword bingo competition.

I liked the one today, the team is more C orientated although not much C99. Questions about how null dereferencing is caught and raised to the application, limitations of signal handlers. Some questions about hashing which make me laugh as I know nothing about creating an ideal hash function, then some little bits around BSD sockets. Alas, no opportunity no mention quantum bogo-sort presented itself.

It's really odd talking code over a phone, I also have some cheap kitchen phone taken from my last apartment which likes to hang up a few times or produce random static during each interview for added entertainment.

edit: in the afternoon an interview in the city for a job I had no details about. A post-sales architect position, but they couldn't define anything and were looking for somebody flexible to meet such an undefined role. Confusing.

MrMoo fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Oct 4, 2011

Simpo
May 1, 2008

Sab669 posted:

So, I had that phone interview for the internship last night. Basically it's a start up company that doesn't even have a building. They're not big enough, promote work from home, yadda yadda yadda trying to save money. The two guys I spoke with basically work jobs 9-5 and are trying to start this company at the night time? Sounds kinda shady to me.

if they guys are working 9-5 on other jobs and assume they can get anyone else willing to invest in an idea they aren't even putting their full attention into they are dreaming. And if they have to work 9-5 they probably don't have much in the way of their own money backing it.

Could be fine, but that fact raises alarm bells for me

Cicero
Dec 17, 2003

Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.
http://www.recruitingtrends.com/average-salary-offer-rises-6-percent-for-the-class-of-2011

quote:

As a group, those earning computer-related degrees saw their overall average salary soar 9.6 percent from $58,189 to $63,760. The overall average offer for those majoring specifically in computer science jumped 9.3 percent to $66,084, while information sciences and systems majors saw their average salary offer increase by 5.9 percent to $55,619.
:stare:

That is a huge one-year jump. Also, it finally puts us (ever-so-slightly) ahead of ChemE majors.

oRenj9
Aug 3, 2004

Who loves oRenj soda?!?
College Slice
Does anybody have advice for getting part-time development work?

I've been developing now for about six years professionally, but I recently decided to go back go school full-time and finish my B.S.C.S. I didn't originally plan to work at all during my two years at school, but honestly, I think I can handle 10-20 hours of work a week on top of school.

The major hurdle I'm trying to overcome is finding something part-time. I contacted my old manager, and they were willing to work something out, but only if I could come into the office, but that is over an hour away now. I've looked through Dice without luck; then again, who is going to post a part-time development position?

Ideally, I think I would be well suited to a developer support role. In my experience, every team has a bunch of little things that need to be done by someone, but nobody ever has the time. I could be the person on the team with the time!

oRenj9 fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Oct 6, 2011

Mike1o1
Sep 5, 2004
Tiluvas

oRenj9 posted:

Does anybody have advice for getting part-time development work?

I've been developing now for about six years professionally, but I recently decided to go back go school full-time and finish my B.S.C.S. I didn't originally plan to work at all during my two years at school, but honestly, I think I can handle 10-20 hours of work a week on top of school.

The major hurdle I'm trying to overcome is finding something part-time. I contacted my old manager, and they were willing to work something out, but only if I could come into the office, but that is over an hour away now. I've looked through Dice without luck; then again, who is going to post a part-time development position?

Ideally, I think I would be well suited to a developer support role. In my experience, every team has a bunch of little things that need to be done by someone, but nobody ever has the time. I could be the person on the team with the time!

Are there no internships you can apply for? Around here paid internships offer around 20 hours of work a week, and typically pay around $15 an hour. That might be a bit low wage considering your experience, but it beats working retail!

Freundlich Freund
Jan 29, 2010

Freundlich Freund posted:

Thanks for your advice guys. I did have a shock when they offered only £14,000 as a starting salary, and obviously seeing other graduate jobs being a lot higher seems a bit strange. However, I have applied to about 10-15 jobs in the past 2 weeks and this has been the only one that has given a reply (bar 2 rejections) and obviously given an interview. So I could either stick it out and reject the job offer and wait to get something better, or do it, get the experience and then use that to my advantage in maybe looking for a new job?

Really hard to decide when it just seems to be deciding between the choice of two evils (low salary <-> unemployment but possible better job).

Just an update:

I did my week trial, and also I went for an interview for another job. Both offered me a job with the newer job offering £18k!

However, I did decide in the end to go for the previous job as I felt it would give me better experience. As a bonus I managed to get the starting salary go up from the £14k to £16 after I mentioned the newer job offer!

So start on Monday and I am pretty happy with my decision :)

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Pimblor
Sep 13, 2003
bob
Grimey Drawer
I've been through five interviewees in as many months now. I'm working in a soulless cubicled fluorescent environment where lower than business casual is frowned on.

I'm a Sr. SE so I get called to interview all these sad sacks. I rarely bother to look at resumes, and I don't care about your GPA. If you can answer/whiteboard the following I usually recommend them:

1.) Sketch out the top level design for a train website (boxes and lines and sample code)
2.) Not sperg out when I ask what a pointer is (or sperg out in general)
3.) I usually ask, on a scale of 1 - 10, where 1 is "have heard of it" and 10 is "wrote the book on it", to rate themselves in a few topics, C#, etc. If they go over 5 I usually test to destruction.
4.) mostly just shoot the poo poo to see if I like them, test for general not dumb-ness.

I should really look for a new job. But I suspect everywhere is like this, so I make my peace by reassuring myself that I'm at least well paid and the commute is short and they don't care when I come and go so long as my projects get checked in on time.

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