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Ornamented Death posted:I don't think Rothfuss is self aware so much as he's just open to criticism. Unlike a lot of fantasy authors, he doesn't view his work as sacrosanct and can admit when something is a tad on the ridiculous side. He's trying to be edgy by adding a whole bunch of sex, but a) there's nothing edgy about sex in fantasy books, b) that's been true for like 40 years at least, and c) even if it were edgy, it's done so poorly that it doesn't matter.
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Sep 29, 2011 21:22
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There's sex in Lynch's second book. And it's goofy and pulpy like the rest of the book but not really cringeworthy or goony. Two people develop an attraction and start banging noisily.
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Sep 29, 2011 21:25
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The sex in GRRM books makes Kvothe look like Peter Pan. Rothfuss is basically putting his fingers in his ears and going LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU to all critics.
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Sep 29, 2011 21:38
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soru posted:The sex in GRRM books makes Kvothe look like Peter Pan. Rothfuss is basically putting his fingers in his ears and going LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU to all critics. I blame you for getting me into this series, by the way. Thanks a lot. 
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Sep 29, 2011 22:24
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It'd be so much less frustrating if the concept weren't so cool. I really thought the second book would at least start touching on his fall from grace, but Rothfuss just got wrapped up in his own brilliance and gave up any concept of pacing and story development in favor of sex, sex, ninjas, sex, killing people with magic, and a little more sex just for variety. At least with the Adem he came out with the Lethani, and a calmness that will help him become a namer. The sex was unneeded, but not overwhelming. I cannot for the life of me figure out why the Felurian section had to go on so long. The focus was 100% sex, but the only important takeaways were the meeting with the Cthaeh and the Shaed. It's possible to have him introduced to sex without turning him into an irresistable love god. The section could be 1/4 the length and still get everything important in. The Chandrian and Amyr arcs made almost no progress. He saw one, and got pictures of a couple, and maybe got access to some libraries, and one rhyme. The naming arc? He learned to call the Name of the Wind, but hasn't even begun looking for other names (though he did accidentally almost get Felurian). That means he's got 9 more to go if he's going to match the legend. He's still got to get kicked out of the University. He's still got to kill a king. He's still got to start a war. He's still got to go into hiding as an innkeeper. And does anybody really believe that the narrative won't catch up to the framing story at some point and get some resolution to what he is now? That's a fuckton to put into one book, and Wise Man's Fear showed pretty well that he doesn't know a goddamn thing about the pacing necessary to get it all done. It's either going to wind up rushed or split up into two books.
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Sep 30, 2011 05:31
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WeWereSchizo posted:It'd be so much less frustrating if the concept weren't so cool. I really thought the second book would at least start touching on his fall from grace, but Rothfuss just got wrapped up in his own brilliance and gave up any concept of pacing and story development in favor of sex, sex, ninjas, sex, killing people with magic, and a little more sex just for variety. 600 pages in to the new book, the last page will read as such: Kvothe gets mad at Ambrose and accidentally calls all the names, burning him into the ground. (speculation spoilers) Ambrose is the King, this ignites a civil war, Kvothe runs away so people don't rally around him. Also, he accidentally opened a door to the Fae and lost all his powers. THE END (chandrian and Amyr saved for trilogy no.2, Denna saved for trilogy no.3)
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Sep 30, 2011 11:13
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WeWereSchizo posted:At least with the Adem he came out with the Lethani, and a calmness that will help him become a namer. The sex was unneeded, but not overwhelming. I cannot for the life of me figure out why the Felurian section had to go on so long. The focus was 100% sex, but the only important takeaways were the meeting with the Cthaeh and the Shaed. It's possible to have him introduced to sex without turning him into an irresistable love god. The section could be 1/4 the length and still get everything important in. Not that I disagree with you about the sex being too much of a focus, but Felurian also told him the story of Iax and explained where the moon is when it's not in Kvothe's sky (a question that one of the Masters, I think Elodin, asks him at admissions). This will probably be the most important thing that comes out of it, since a lot of people are speculating that Kvothe's terrible mistake is he either releases Iax or somehow brings Fae and the human world together via moon-shenanigans. WeWereSchizo posted:That means he's got 9 more to go if he's going to match the legend. He's still got to get kicked out of the University. He's still got to kill a king. He's still got to start a war. He's still got to go into hiding as an innkeeper. And does anybody really believe that the narrative won't catch up to the framing story at some point and get some resolution to what he is now? I have a hunch that now that he has the Lethani and understands it, he'll pick up several names at once. He already got kicked out of the University in book one (the first time he called the name of the wind on Ambrose) though he was immediately reinstated. If the king he kills is Ambrose the groundwork for that is already basically laid. And I don't really expect much resolution at all from the framing story beyond maybe an Angel-style "let's get to work" after he finally opens up his box and gets re-powered. Edit: Though The Chronicler's last name is close enough to "Lockless" that some people are saying he's playing a long-con on Kvothe of some kind, so maybe that will be the resolution. For anyone who likes this sort of stuff I recommend the detailed rereads going on here. She hasn't gone very far into WMF but it does make me feel a little more like he actually has a plan (and a reason) for all of the things he writes about even when he writes them in an annoying way like Felurian. It also gives a lot of pretty neat hints (at least to me) about where the third book is going to go. Sophia fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Sep 30, 2011 |
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Sep 30, 2011 12:56
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Good find!
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Sep 30, 2011 21:37
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Sophia posted:Not that I disagree with you about the sex being too much of a focus, but Felurian also told him the story of Iax and explained where the moon is when it's not in Kvothe's sky (a question that one of the Masters, I think Elodin, asks him at admissions). This will probably be the most important thing that comes out of it, since a lot of people are speculating that Kvothe's terrible mistake is he either releases Iax or somehow brings Fae and the human world together via moon-shenanigans. 
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Sep 30, 2011 21:53
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WeWereSchizo posted:He's completely closed to criticism. If anybody dislikes a part of his work, it's clearly because they just can't appreciate his talent. Don't like the 300 pages of fae loving? Prude. Think sex ninjas are silly and unnecessary? Go be a Quaker if the idea of sex disgusts you so much. Unrelated, but Quakers are fine with sex. It is the Shakers (all 3 of them who are left) who do not believe in having sex.
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Sep 30, 2011 21:57
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Ranma posted:Unrelated, but Quakers are fine with sex. It is the Shakers (all 3 of them who are left) who do not believe in having sex. My bad. Sorry to any Quakers I may have offended.
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Sep 30, 2011 22:51
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Is it weird that I always got more of a Kama Sutra sense from Felurian's names than an anime power-move name kinda thing?
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Sep 30, 2011 22:55
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Danhenge posted:Is it weird that I always got more of a Kama Sutra sense from Felurian's names than an anime power-move name kinda thing? Nah, I guess it could go either way - it's just that the names sound like martial arts forms, which is probably what causes that association. Ultimately, he probably should have just left the names of all of his sex fighting moves out altogether. It's just embarrassing to read passages along the lines of, "I started off with a Hadoken, then moved on to a Sho-ryu-ken, and by the time I moved into a Sonic Boom, she had melted in my hands like chocolate in the afternoon sun."
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Sep 30, 2011 23:22
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Danhenge posted:Is it weird that I always got more of a Kama Sutra sense from Felurian's names than an anime power-move name kinda thing? Well, that was probably the intent, at least. I don't know that I had really a problem with the names. Just the duration.
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Sep 30, 2011 23:56
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The Supreme Court posted:600 pages in to the new book, the last page will read as such: I'm only 2/3 of the way through the second book, so maybe what I'm going to predict is totally disproven, but: He swore to Denna on his name and his power, his good left hand, and the ever-moving moon that he wouldn't attempt to uncover her patron. Her patron is a king, and he's also one of the Chandrian. He did uncover him, he killed him for beating her and killing his family, he lost his power, his name, and the dexterity of his left hand. Also, the Chandrian have something to do with the monsters not coming into the world. They might even be the Amyr, doing terrible things for the greater good. I'm much less sure about the second part, but the first would make a tidy package.
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Oct 1, 2011 01:50
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To be fair, the Felurian thing didn't really focus on the sex beyond Kvothe's... uh... entrance to the Fae and the "lessons." The whole thing probably just seemed longer because it was written awkwardly, which I don't necessarily mind at times, as a 16-year old boy probably would randomly start staring at a Fae spoilers: Immediately before she starts teaching him goofy sex moves, they have a name-off in which his sleeping mind awakens and he uses her true name. He implausibly manipulates her into letting him go. He uses her odd behavior to draw contrast between humans and Fae creatures, and adds some world building elements to emphasize the strangeness of the Fae. They spend (what seemed like) way too much time making him a magic shadow cloak (more Kvothe-legend stuff). They have a discussion about what's going on with the moon (which will almost certainly tie into the narrative later). He wanders off and gets mind-raped by a smug tree monster. That's pretty much it. The real problem with the Fae scenes isn't the quantity of sex, but the way it's written and incorporated into the narrative. I'd actually be a little surprised if he did get kidnapped by a sex faerie and they didn't mention the sex after the first few pages (although that doesn't necessarily justify the sex faerie's existence in the first place).
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Oct 1, 2011 02:29
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The Patrick Rothfuss re-read that somebody posted a few posts up is a really good read and I've got to say it restored some of my faith in Rothfuss as a writer.quote:For anyone who likes this sort of stuff I recommend the detailed rereads going on here. She hasn't gone very far into WMF but it does make me feel a little more like he actually has a plan (and a reason) for all of the things he writes about even when he writes them in an annoying way like Felurian. It also gives a lot of pretty neat hints (at least to me) about where the third book is going to go.
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Oct 3, 2011 22:59
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Danhenge posted:The Patrick Rothfuss re-read that somebody posted a few posts up is a really good read and I've got to say it restored some of my faith in Rothfuss as a writer. It didn't restore my faith in Rothfuss as a writer, but it does make me wish (I think it'd be too much to hope) that some of their speculations are right, because the books would be much better if so. But I can't help thinking that these readers are trying to supply what's lacking in the books, rather than seeing what's genuinely there. Example from the recent Denna-focused speculative summary: Jo Walton posted:
I come away feeling not "hmm, Rothfuss must be doing something cool and subtle with the moon," but "hmm, this would be a more satisfying book if Jo Walton had written it." Especially since the hopeful theories can so often be quashed (the moon theory, for example, faces the observation that "there is no rhyme or reason to the moon-phases in which Kvothe sees her. I actually paid attention to this, hoping for a pattern, and while it does seem that moon-imagery hovers around Denna whenever she is mentioned, it does not seem that she only appears at certain points in the moon’s cycle between the worlds").
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Oct 4, 2011 02:23
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Kvothe, "My first girlfriend turned into the moon".
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Oct 4, 2011 05:22
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That's rough buddy.
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Oct 4, 2011 11:37
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keiran_helcyan posted:Kvothe, "My first girlfriend turned into the moon". That whore
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Oct 4, 2011 11:56
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keiran_helcyan posted:Kvothe, "My first girlfriend turned into the moon". I love you for this. P.S. for anyone who isn't aware that's an Avatar: The Last Airbender quote, and one of the best lines in the series.
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Oct 5, 2011 23:08
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isochronous posted:I love you for this.
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Oct 6, 2011 17:20
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I just watched the first couple seasons of Futurama, and whoever said that he started reading Kvothe's narration in Zapp Brannigan's voice is going to make my eventual reread even more fun.
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Oct 7, 2011 05:22
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Oh hey, that was me. I found it didn't work quite as well for the second book, sadly. The line from the first one about how he has "a mind so clear and sharp that sometimes I have to be careful not to cut myself" made me laugh out loud so hard that people on the train were looking at me, iirc.
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Oct 10, 2011 17:43
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I'm very nearly done with the first book, and I'm just wondering about the second one, is it more of the same style? I know the books are styled as a chronicle but that doesn't entirely excuse the lack of a self contained plot per book, and NotW is fairly lacking there, unless Kvothe finds some Chandrain info in the next 3 chapters I guess.
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Oct 10, 2011 18:04
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The second book is even worse about that, and about everything else too.
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Oct 10, 2011 18:24
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Well, finished it. I guess I enjoyed NotW ok, but I really don't see why Rothfuss is/was being hyped as some awesome new writer when the book felt a hell of a lot like a meandering goony self-insert with no real plot. I'm willing to forgive a lot in an author's first book, but from what you guys are saying he doesn't improve much. I'll still probably read the second one anyway, since there's only going to be 3 books to this thing.
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Oct 11, 2011 17:57
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If all you have to say about this book is that it's a "meandering goony self-insert with no real plot" then please don't read the next one. Don't read something you don't like just to bitch about it. And if you do read the next one, then at least admit to yourself that there's something about it you like enough to spend money and time on.
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Oct 11, 2011 18:14
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I said right in that same post that I enjoyed it. Sorry I insulted your favorite books or something?
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Oct 11, 2011 18:26
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Man, I just wish he'd go into the magic more. I love the concept of naming every time it gets used in a fantasy series. Are there any other good book series with a similar magical vibe? I've read pretty much everything that can be considered "mainstream" or "standard" for the most part...
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Oct 11, 2011 18:35
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IRQ posted:I said right in that same post that I enjoyed it. Sorry I insulted your favorite books or something? It's not even close to my favorite - it's that your opinion seems to be overwhelmingly negative, so why bother? You're just going to be complaining about book 2 in the same ways in a couple weeks (plus some new exciting ways).
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Oct 11, 2011 18:43
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soru posted:It's not even close to my favorite - it's that your opinion seems to be overwhelmingly negative, so why bother? You're just going to be complaining about book 2 in the same ways in a couple weeks (plus some new exciting ways). Yeah, if you weren't keen on the first book because it seemed meandering, plotless and goony, I genuinely wouldn't bother reading the second book unless you're seriously bored. It has some redeeming moments, but is probably editorially worse than the first novel.
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Oct 11, 2011 19:19
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soru posted:If all you have to say about this book is that it's a "meandering goony self-insert with no real plot" then please don't read the next one. Don't read something you don't like just to bitch about it. And if you do read the next one, then at least admit to yourself that there's something about it you like enough to spend money and time on.
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Oct 11, 2011 19:31
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soru posted:It's not even close to my favorite - it's that your opinion seems to be overwhelmingly negative, so why bother? You're just going to be complaining about book 2 in the same ways in a couple weeks (plus some new exciting ways). Because I read the first one, I enjoyed it for the most part, and I'm a bit of a completionist. I also don't really see how discussing the negative points of a book automatically means you overwhelmingly hate it and are just complaining. Look I'm sorry if I'm rehashing poo poo that has been brought up before or something like that (because you sure seem defensive like it has) but it's a long thread and I'm vaguely trying to avoid spoilers for the next book.
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Oct 11, 2011 22:55
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IRQ posted:Because I read the first one, I enjoyed it for the most part, and I'm a bit of a completionist. I also don't really see how discussing the negative points of a book automatically means you overwhelmingly hate it and are just complaining. No, the reason people are telling you not to keep reading is that if what you found to be the only things worth mentioning about the first book to be meandering, plotless, and goony, the second book is even more meandering, plotless, and goony. If you did like the first and would enjoy more of the same, you will like WMF. But it's definitely more of the same. neongrey fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Oct 12, 2011 |
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Oct 12, 2011 00:13
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Just finished marathoning the two books back-to-back. The thing that bothers me with Kvothe is that he's not a typical hero. For starters, he's not an action hero. He doesn't fight (much), and while studying with the Adem has made him better at it, he's still not a fighter first. He's not a "clever hero" either. He doesn't so much plan and talk his way around things so much as he bluffs; he makes too many mistakes, says too many dumb things to qualify. While he uses guile and subterfuge quite a bit, he still can't really qualify as a "thief hero". In the end, he really is what the older Kvothe always claims that he is: a reasonably-clever guy with above-average skills in a few areas, and an overwhelming drive to succeed. He wins more often than he loses, but he's still playing the same game as everyone else. That's just not great fodder for a fantasy novel. Less seriously, it bugged the poo poo out of me that Kvothe lost his argument with Penthe about where babies come from. I mean...really. Actually, the whole arc with the Adem bothered me. I wish they had just skipped over it entirely.
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Oct 12, 2011 00:33
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Vengarr posted:Just finished marathoning the two books back-to-back. While I agree with Kvothe not being the greatest character, you just basically claimed that if a main character doesn't come out of a D&D manual, it can't be good fantasy. I think the general (and correct) consensus is the opposite. Good fantasy has realistic people, not super-heroes with dual wielding proficiency and +3 gloves of demon slaying. Not that I don't enjoy reading Brandon Sanderson or anything.
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Oct 12, 2011 01:09
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Vengarr posted:In the end, he really is what the older Kvothe always claims that he is: a reasonably-clever guy with above-average skills in a few areas, and an overwhelming drive to succeed. He wins more often than he loses, but he's still playing the same game as everyone else. That's just not great fodder for a fantasy novel. Really? I think this makes great fodder for a fantasy novel. I enjoy the deconstruction of legends a lot, and it's certainly not rare to do that in fantasy; Martin made an entire book series basically about this idea and Pratchett lives there. Where I think the problem is with Kvothe is that Rothfuss has a hard time balancing the need to make Kvothe seem regretful / not confident and his own love for the character. Since Kvothe is narrating the entire thing, it would be nice if the tone of the story really indicated that everything that happened was a fluke or a joke and would lead to a terrible end. Instead it's like the words are saying that but Rothfuss is nudging our shoulders saying "but isn't this great??" The re-read I posted before has me confident that Rothfuss has a very clear plan for where this story is going and he's been weaving clues and hints in throughout his story that will lead us to the ultimate conclusion. I'm no longer worried that the story itself will lack closure or finality. And I like the way he writes a lot even though other people don't so much. But he's too in love with his own character and that's the major shortcoming I see when I read through the books over again.
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Oct 12, 2011 01:44
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IRQ posted:Well, finished it. I guess I enjoyed NotW ok, but I really don't see why Rothfuss is/was being hyped as some awesome new writer when the book felt a hell of a lot like a meandering goony self-insert with no real plot. The part I quoted in boldface is the part I think is most important here, and the part with which I agree most profoundly. NotW was not a terrible read. There was some entertaining stuff going on. It was entertaining enough that I went on to read the second book, and I'll likely read the third. But the reason I picked up NotW in the first place is that there were so many reviews that were overwhelmingly positive and seemed to position this guy as like the new great hope of fantasy fiction or something. Like, when Betsy Wollheim says something is "the most brilliant first fantasy novel I have read in over 30 years as an editor," I would tend to expect it's pretty drat good. When Ursula Le Guin finds it "a rare and great pleasure", I ought to be swooning over this thing. And it's just ... not all that good. Sure, lots of fantasy is made up of goony self-inserts, lots of fantasy is meandering, etc. But the Kingkiller trilogy is supposed to be REALLY GOOD fantasy. Supposed to be.
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Oct 12, 2011 01:59
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