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I really do enjoy it whenever anyone says "capitalism hasn't killed millions" or something, because when you show how that's wrong it tends to actually make people think.
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Oct 13, 2011 06:44
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Yeah I hear "socialism kills" a lot, I've never had anybody explain to me how exactly the democratization of any economy ever contributed to a death e: This is from YouTube but it's relevant so I think I can do a snippet him posted:Uh, well the DOJ should be investigating fast and furious. Killing American citizens with drones. The crony capitalist practice of giving tax dollars to political allies (solyndra). The focus of collectivists is always just a bit dazed and confused, this guy is spouting the same tired crap we have been hearing for a year. Socialism kills it killed 150 million people this last century. Hey lets give it one more try . me posted:You should probably do a bit more reading into what exactly socialism is and the actual circumstances of the purges in the USSR. Saying "socialism kills" shows zero understanding of what actually went on and a strong desire to put an "evil" label on people who disagree with you politically (and seriously, "collectivists"? Way to drag the discourse down to bumper sticker level). him posted:It really shows a crystal clear understanding of collectivism. Any and all types of planed collectivist nonsense ends in death camps, at least thats what history shows us. You can intentionally misconstrue our historical understanding of this failed political philosophy, but dont tell me I dont understand it. I never called anyone evil, I said dazed and confused. Stalin called them useful idiots, so you see I was being kind. I would argue you are the one who is uninformed. me posted:I'm not misconstruing anything, the fact that you brought Stalin into this shows you really know nothing about socialism. So if I were to plan a trip to modern-day Scandinavia, where might I find the death camps? I know he's not going to give me a straight answer but I'm not really sure where I should go once I get the inevitable bizarre-tangent-rebuttal Kosmonaut fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Oct 13, 2011 |
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Oct 13, 2011 06:50
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Amarkov posted:I really do enjoy it whenever anyone says "capitalism hasn't killed millions" or something, because when you show how that's wrong it tends to actually make people think. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_industrial_disasters For starters.
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Oct 13, 2011 06:53
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Brain In A Jar posted:After the whole "Occupy Melbourne" rally against "corporate greed" and "the free market" and whatever other crap they always rant on about... most of us will be going to work or university the following Monday morning. Capitalism didn't invent any of those things. Under feudalism, under ancient tribal societies, work and trade existed. It's an outright falsehood that the market system is a creation of Capitalism. In fact, capitalism's main contribution was the liberalized market, and basically, that idea has not worked out. Decades of game theory have demonstrated time and again why it was foolish to think it ever would. Capitalism is anti-democratic, in fact, it is neo-feudalism.
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Oct 13, 2011 06:57
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pawsplay posted:Capitalism didn't invent any of those things. Under feudalism, under ancient tribal societies, work and trade existed. It's an outright falsehood that the market system is a creation of Capitalism. In fact, capitalism's main contribution was the liberalized market, and basically, that idea has not worked out. Decades of game theory have demonstrated time and again why it was foolish to think it ever would. Capitalism is anti-democratic, in fact, it is neo-feudalism. Even Marx recognized that capitalism is far, far better than feudalism.
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Oct 13, 2011 07:14
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Kosmonaut posted:Yeah I hear "socialism kills" a lot, I've never had anybody explain to me how exactly the democratization of any economy ever contributed to a death Take a shot if he says Utoya.
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Oct 13, 2011 07:38
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:Take a shot if he says Utoya. Just be sure to aim for his head
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Oct 13, 2011 07:51
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Kosmonaut posted:Also digging the "unearthly glow" of fluorescents that look more like sunlight than incandescents
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Oct 13, 2011 07:56
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:Take a shot if he says Utoya. As long as it's a shot of good old-fashioned pollutant liquor without all these drat commie environmental standards Strudel Man posted:Hm? What are you basing this on? The way incandescents look to me compared to fluorescents and sunlight. There's no evidence for it, but it's science fact
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Oct 13, 2011 08:12
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Kosmonaut posted:The way incandescents look to me compared to fluorescents and sunlight. There's no evidence for it, but it's science fact
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Oct 13, 2011 08:14
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Footboy posted:Got this one from a relative the other day.
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Oct 13, 2011 08:49
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I think my favorite was the TSA cavity search to prevent thing. Because that was totally first implemented under a liberal demmy president. Also calling him Winston. Precious.
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Oct 13, 2011 08:56
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Footboy posted:Got this one from a relative the other day. I guess it's wrong to assume that this person subscribes to every Republican talking point, but has anyone ever gotten a response when you ask them to explain how the government helping poor people buy medicine and intervene to keep melons from killing people with listeria and our oil wells from exploding will lead to tyranny, but all the invasive surveillance and racial profiling from removal of due process under Bush is just fine?
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Oct 13, 2011 09:00
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Because one is giving the government AUTHORITY to pry into big business, the foundation of capitalism, and if you let them at the foundation the entire structure collapses. The other let's them keep a close eye on terrorists, who seek to destroy capitalism, so it's a prevention measure. I'm probably exaggerating a tad but I think that may actually be the jist.
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Oct 13, 2011 09:08
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Darth Windu posted:Even Marx recognized that capitalism is far, far better than feudalism. Slight derail but one of the hypotheses of why Europe generally has stronger welfare systems than the USA is that capitalism in Europe evolved from Feudalism (where there was the idea that it was the lords job to look after the peasants, a sort of Noblesse oblige) wheras capitalism in the USA came pretty much fully-formed and didn't evolve from any other system. Hence you have the lack of safety nets as there is no tradition of the rich showing their magnanimity towards the poor in the form of safety nets, welfare etc...
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Oct 13, 2011 11:05
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RagnarokAngel posted:^^^ It really sucks I can't tell people 1984 is one of my favorite books because people will get the wrong idea. Whoa, they made a book out of that album? Van Halen rocks, dude! quote:Now I'm not insinuating that Occupy Wall Street is literally run by future Hitlers, I'm just asking questions! Is the Occupy Wall Street movement a fake "grassroots" protest manufactured and organized by liberal media and "the Left"? You decide!
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Oct 13, 2011 12:18
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Augh my personal finance instructor took the class through barstool economics and now he's hammering on the fairness of flat tax.
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Oct 13, 2011 14:35
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Kosmonaut posted:And on the great stone edifice were chiseled the awful tenets of the Amerilib party: Back to topic, I just had to explain to my mom what a Nigerian 419 scam is. For like the 3rd time. I think she's getting to that age where she's vulnerable to this kind of thing. 
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Oct 13, 2011 14:42
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Amarkov posted:I really do enjoy it whenever anyone says "capitalism hasn't killed millions" or something, because when you show how that's wrong it tends to actually make people think. One loving billion food insecure people this present day. We produce enough food to feed every single human being on this planet. Capitalism.
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Oct 13, 2011 15:30
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Kosmonaut posted:Yeah I hear "socialism kills" a lot, I've never had anybody explain to me how exactly the democratization of any economy ever contributed to a death For the love of God. Scandinavia is not socialist. Not a single Scandinavian country is socialist, nor have they ever been. I know you mean well, but don't go around telling other people they don't know what socialism is and then point to Scandinavia, or any present day European country.
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Oct 13, 2011 15:33
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Orange Devil posted:One loving billion food insecure people this present day. That isn't really a capitalism thing unless you want to say that every problem ever in human society is a capitalism thing, and if you do that then there's no point in listening to you. It's an infrastructure, distribution, and corruption thing; we have enough food to feed every human on the planet but not the means to get it to them reliably.
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Oct 13, 2011 15:42
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Orange Devil posted:One loving billion food insecure people this present day. I think a better example would be the people who suffer and die at the hands of the US for-profit-Healthcare system. There are a lot of factors involved in not getting food to those people. And if the US became a truly Socialist country, it's no guarantee that we'd go out and start feeding people in other countries just because we could.
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Oct 13, 2011 15:52
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Huitzil posted:That isn't really a capitalism thing unless you want to say that every problem ever in human society is a capitalism thing, and if you do that then there's no point in listening to you. It's an infrastructure, distribution, and corruption thing; we have enough food to feed every human on the planet but not the means to get it to them reliably. You better believe that means would be implemented drat quickly if there was a profit to be made from feeding humanity's poor. But the poors don't come with overflowing wallets, so capital looks elsewhere.
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Oct 13, 2011 16:24
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Orange Devil posted:For the love of God. Scandinavia is not socialist. Not a single Scandinavian country is socialist, nor have they ever been. I know you mean well, but don't go around telling other people they don't know what socialism is and then point to Scandinavia, or any present day European country. You assume the idiots who complain about socialism are using the correct definition. They aren't. If the two sides are using two different definitions, nothing will ever get done, so it's easier to accept their definition, show them why they're wrong even with their own definition, and THEN correct their definition once they admit they're wrong(Note I said easier, not easy :p).
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Oct 13, 2011 16:37
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My sister just posted this on her wall: I'm tempted to post a snark about how she is taking out tens of thousands of dollars in loans for medschool (while our parents are still paying PLUS loans for our undergrad), while I am enjoying my spiffy PhD in ecology and evolutionary biology, 100% funded by GOVERNMENT TAX DOLLARS through graduate assistantships.
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Oct 13, 2011 18:42
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So the message is "I work hard to pay for the 10% of the cost of schooling not being subsidized"?
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Oct 13, 2011 18:49
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LuckyDaemon posted:My sister just posted this on her wall: She's not in the 99%? drat, where do kids these days make $250K/year without a degree? A lot of 53%ers simply are NOT, like the guy who "bragged" about not having health insurance. A lot of these people might be mistaking payroll taxes and Medicare taxes for income taxes because they come out of their paycheck. Edit: Someone really needs to make a tumblr full of horror stories about getting foreclosed despite not having a mortgage, or being denied health insurance because you had a "preexisting condition" of suffering domestic abuse. Double edit: assuming those people can even get access to a computer. Dr Christmas fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Oct 13, 2011 |
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Oct 13, 2011 19:19
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Dr Christmas posted:She's not in the 99%? drat, where do kids these days make $350K/year without a degree? Fixed that for you. Aparently that's where the 1% starts. The .1% starts much MUCH higher than that.
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Oct 13, 2011 19:21
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Dr Christmas posted:She's not in the 99%? drat, where do kids these days make $250K/year without a degree? Personally, I love how they received 90% scholarships, which I can guarantee is either partially or in full federally or state funded. And then they act like they aren't living off well off the government tit.
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Oct 13, 2011 19:26
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LuckyDaemon posted:My sister just posted this on her wall: So, work your rear end off for poo poo pay and have a familial safety net plus be lucky enough to get a scholarship and live in a place that funds a state school well, and you too can graduate debt-free while enjoying nothing. This is an odd combination of privilege.txt and accepting a poo poo lifestyle.
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Oct 13, 2011 21:02
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ThePeteEffect posted:So, work your rear end off for poo poo pay and have a familial safety net plus be lucky enough to get a scholarship and live in a place that funds a state school well, and you too can graduate debt-free while enjoying nothing. This is an odd combination of privilege.txt and accepting a poo poo lifestyle.
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Oct 13, 2011 21:04
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LuckyDaemon posted:My sister just posted this on her wall: I know it's funny to joke about Occupy Wallstreet's "demands", but is it really that hard for people to comprehend what it's all about - the mega-rich's immense power through lobbyists and political contributions, while being able to hold our economy hostage and having historical low taxes and historically high wealth? It has nothing to do with how hard someone does or does not work. Corb3t fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Oct 14, 2011 |
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Oct 13, 2011 22:35
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So what about all the people who should be able to go to college but can't get scholarships because there are a limited number? Also, I agree about the OWS demands. Each person you ask is going to have something specific that brought them there. Whether its campaign financing, wealth distribution, healthcare, etc. But at their core, the complaints all come down to the same thing: for the last 30 years America has gotten richer, but all of that new wealth has only gone to the top.
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Oct 14, 2011 02:58
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Corbet posted:I know it's funny to joke about Occupy Wallstreet's "demands", but is it really that hard for people to comprehend what it's all about - the mega-rich's immense power through lobbyists and political contributions, while being able to hold our economy hostage and having historical taxes? Yes, apparently it is very hard to understand what it's about. Maybe that's because they just yell WHAT DO THEY EVEN WANT HUH over and over and then don't actually listen when people answer them. Or listen and then say "Hmm, no, I think it's just class warfare and they hate success"
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Oct 14, 2011 03:03
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Corbet posted:I know it's funny to joke about Occupy Wallstreet's "demands", but is it really that hard for people to comprehend what it's all about - the mega-rich's immense power through lobbyists and political contributions, while being able to hold our economy hostage and having historical low taxes and historically high wealth? Uh but taxes are the highest they've ever been. Don't you watch the news?
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Oct 14, 2011 05:34
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Dominion posted:Yes, apparently it is very hard to understand what it's about. Maybe that's because they just yell WHAT DO THEY EVEN WANT HUH over and over and then don't actually listen when people answer them. Or listen and then say "Hmm, no, I think it's just class warfare and they hate success" He wanted OWS distilled down to something that fits on a bumper sticker. I offered "Abolish the tyranny of the richest 1%". He seemed to accept that. v  v
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Oct 14, 2011 13:16
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Plom Bar posted:I had a guy on my Facebook who couldn't wrap his head around "What OWS is about", and after carefully explaining in detail some of the more significant points of the movement, he whined that my explanation was demonstrative that we're just a bunch of hipsters with no focus or central point. Thought terminating clichés are supposed to atrophy the imagination to prevent dissidence, à la Orwell's Newspeak and the "thought reform" (brainwashing) in Maoist China.
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Oct 14, 2011 13:53
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I've not been following OWS close enough, apparently. I get the 99%, I get the 1%, who the gently caress are the 53%?
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Oct 14, 2011 17:26
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47% of people* don't pay taxes.** Ergo, 53% do. They are the "53%."*** *includes children, the elderly, the unemployed, the disabled, and the retired. **Only speaking of income taxes, after deductions and refunds. Payroll taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, and other taxes are not included. ***No, they're not.
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Oct 14, 2011 17:30
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Found this one on Facebook this morning:quote:Total annual cost of regulatory compliance: 1.7$ Trillion. It's a mystery why companies aren't hiring... Cut that cost in half (1.7*10^12)/2, and divide by the national average salary for an individual with an advanced degree, 70000$. That equates to slightly over 12 million jobs. At 70000$ each. Corporate greed? Or government stupidity? I pointed out that was making a number of bad assumptions including: 1.) That the companies would use the money they saved to hire new workers. 2.) That they would hire workers at anywhere near $70,000 per year 3.) That all the cost of regulations is shifted onto households. 4.) That the report is any way accurate (I only read the page he referenced). He just deleted my response without comment, though. Do I get points for trying?
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Oct 14, 2011 17:51
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