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pawsplay posted:If It Had Been Up to Me Apparently it isn't!: pawsplay posted:EDIT: Do you actually have anything useful to say about balancing Pathfinder, or are you just here to castigate people for the sin of enjoying it?
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Oct 17, 2011 10:45
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Okay. Fighters are conceptually weaker than wizards. Why are fighters conceptually weaker than wizards? You've made two implicit assumptions that I can't find I agree with just now, and one explicit one. One of these is that magic is omnipotent. Magic is versatile, magic is reliable, magic is swift to evoke, magic is safe for the user, magic is good at direct combat, magic can shut down major portions of the battlefield, magic can be used quite a number of times per day, and more, off the top of my head. Change just a few of those assumptions and there is no reason that a magic user should be omnipotent, compared to a really scary swordsman. Why is magic all-encompassing? The second implicit assumption I can't really follow is the assumption that a fighter can't do any of these things. Why is the 'conception' of a warrior someone who must be an utterly mundane man? Why isn't the conception of a high-level warrior Conan or Theseus or Lü Bu or Cú Chulainn or Lancelot or Inigo Montoya or... The explicit assumption I have trouble with is that magic-users are conceptually stronger. You made an analogy, but I don't see how it applies. How is 'use of magic' so inherently a stronger concept than 'use of weaponry'? If I try to extend the analogy, I get that 'use of magic' automatically contains all end effects that 'use of weaponry' does--which seems to be limited to "hurt things real bad" and "severely hamper enemy tactical movements" so far. Is this correct? If so, why is that so? And my really most basic question honestly wasn't a big theorycrafting bit, not that I mind that.  I just want to know what "a 20th level Pathfinder Fighter" should be capable of in your eyes as a Pathfinder developer. In my last post I had a list of expected things that a high level cleric or wizard should be expected to be able to do. What is the pinnacle of the Fighterhood ideal supposed to be reknowned for in tales of his exploits?
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Oct 17, 2011 10:45
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One thing that bugs me about "but fighters can't break physics, that requires magic!" is this: Extraordinary Abilities (Ex) Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. They're not magic, not supernatural, but the game deliberately makes room for such abilities. And then screws fighters anyway.
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Oct 17, 2011 10:53
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ZeeToo posted:And my really most basic question honestly wasn't a big theorycrafting bit, not that I mind that. Here's my vote for a pretty good starting place. Highlights include chasing a deer on foot for a year, changing the course of rivers, chopping a peninsula off the mainland to make it an island, and killing a CR 11 monster.
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Oct 17, 2011 10:57
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Well, according to things that pawsplay has actually published for Pathfinder, a 20th level warrior should be able to: -be immune to fear, fatigue, exhaustion, and unconsciousness for a whole 2 minutes per day -once per round, attempt to frighten somebody (but only somebody weaker than he is) but not frighten them enough to run away or anything -get a +1 bonus to Charisma skill checks, and grant himself a whopping 20 temporary hit points twice per day -cannot be disarmed with his chosen weapon, and can auto-confirm crits with it (still has to roll the crit, of course) -get the equivalent of a single casting of a 4th level cleric spell (but he can break it up over the day!) These are actual 20th level abilities that pawsplay has written and published for warrior classes.
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Oct 17, 2011 11:12
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By comparison, a Fantasy Craft level 20 Soldier grants himself and each ally within 15ft 1/2 cover (+4 Def, +2 Ref) at all times, in addition to the +5 defense he gets for wearing armor (in addition to whatever the armor itself does). That's in addition to the 1/session set a combat-related die roll to be a 20 (and then spend all your action dice on it to eviscerate the evil overlord in a single blow) ability they get at level 14, of course. That manages to be powerful (especially in a game that minimises Save or Suck spells), and doesn't do anything too mythic in flavour (if you're not into that, which Pawsplay seems not to be), but still proves that you're a master of your craft.
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Oct 17, 2011 11:28
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J. Alfred Prufrock posted:Well, according to things that pawsplay has actually published for Pathfinder, a 20th level warrior should be able to: To be fair, "can't be disarmed and auto-confirms all crits" is a pretty decent thing to give fighters. It's not enough on its own, but I wouldn't mind seeing that on a list of high-level fighter class features.
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Oct 17, 2011 11:37
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Benly posted:To be fair, "can't be disarmed and auto-confirms all crits" is a pretty decent thing to give fighters. It's not enough on its own, but I wouldn't mind seeing that on a list of high-level fighter class features. This is literally the base PF fighter's capstone, except they also improve the crit-mod, but it is all limited to one sort of weapon like 'Greatsword' or 'Scythe' or whatever. quote:Weapon Mastery (Ex) Edit: Combined with a Two-Handed Fighter's ability at level 19 to take a -5 to hit in exchange for automatically threatening a crit, this makes a fighter consistently do insane damage. The problem is that most games are over long before level 19, let alone 20, so fighters don't benefit from these as much as they could. Though, a two-handed archetype fighter will always be able to put out pretty nice damage numbers. grah fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Oct 17, 2011 |
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Oct 17, 2011 12:07
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The problem is that "I can't do enough damage" was never the fighter's mechanical issue, but that's the only thing they got.
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Oct 17, 2011 12:15
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Benly posted:To be fair, "can't be disarmed and auto-confirms all crits" is a pretty decent thing to give fighters. It's not enough on its own, but I wouldn't mind seeing that on a list of high-level fighter class features. Right, so let's just compare that to the ability to literally re-write reality 3+/day... But oh, man, I can give myself twenty temporary hit points! If I do it twice a day that's a whole forty thp, that's, like, half of a single evocation spell!
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Oct 17, 2011 13:34
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The rules, in their infinite majesty, prohibit both fighters and wizards from healing with purestrain HP.
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Oct 17, 2011 13:57
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pawsplay posted:No, that really has nothing to do with any of the things I said. Can you point to some place I indicated that fighters shouldn't wear magical boots? Do you even understand how Power Attack works in Pathfinder? You say "objections" like I'm making a court case, which I am not. I am simply trying to explain why the Bo9S is unappealing to me, not why it's wrong. I don't like the Bo9S. Lots of other people don't like it. It has nothing to with "because caster supremacy" or wuxia-inspired names or liking or not like anime. It didn't appeal to me because I wasn't looking for ways to include thematically over-the-top martial powers in my games. Pathfinder capped how much you could get out of Power Attack a bit, but added damage from other sources. A Pathfinder Fighter can in fact chop through a wall with a mundane sword. quote:Nevertheless, that kind of book could still earn a place on my bookshelf if it facilitated those kinds of things for people who wanted them. I mean, sure, I can accept a quasi-supernatural swordsman in my campaign. However, B09S failed to deliver mechanically. The crusader refresh mechanic is really the worse thing, and as I said, my experience with Star Wars Saga has thoroughly convinced me that I do not like any way of balancing encounter powers that uses a similar approach. I feel about Bo9S about the same way I do about the origional Psionics Handbook; if it were the only game in town, sure, but I'm glad that developmental path dead-ended.
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Oct 17, 2011 15:10
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ZeeToo posted:I just want to know what "a 20th level Pathfinder Fighter" should be capable of in your eyes as a Pathfinder developer. In my last post I had a list of expected things that a high level cleric or wizard should be expected to be able to do. What is the pinnacle of the Fighterhood ideal supposed to be reknowned for in tales of his exploits? Go toe to toe with a hydra, maybe tie the world long jump record in mail armor, kill an ogre in one hit, jump a horse across a chasm, rout a squad of mercenaries by killing one of them with disdain, shake off a paralyzing spell through sheer grit, pull a knife from their belt and spike an enemy guardsman while charging the evil Vizier with a longsword... that's a pretty good start. quote:The explicit assumption I have trouble with is that magic-users are conceptually stronger. You made an analogy, but I don't see how it applies. How is 'use of magic' so inherently a stronger concept than 'use of weaponry'? No amount of swordsmanship is going to let you teleport, scry on somebody, or create a magical disguise. Magic by definition does things non-magical stuff doesn't do, so it is conceptually stronger. It's inherent to the concept, just as "I am a wandering mercenary, living by my sword and searching for the next mug of grog" is weaker than, "I am the greatest swordsman of my age, inspiring many to follow me, who seeks to found a dynasty" even if they have the same BAB, since the second guy could, in theory, train in just about any ability the first guy has. Greater choice is greater power. The only way to balance powerful wizard magic is to make magic difficult enough, or subject to enough countermeasures, that it does not provide a natural solution to every problem. J. Alfred Prufrock posted:Well, according to things that pawsplay has actually published for Pathfinder, a That's an interesting example you picked, since a character of that class can also revive the dead, or continue fighting when down to minus infinity hit points. pawsplay fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Oct 17, 2011 |
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Oct 17, 2011 15:44
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pawsplay posted:Go toe to toe with a hydra, maybe tie the world long jump record in mail armor, kill an ogre in one hit, jump a horse across a chasm, rout a squad of mercenaries by killing one of them with disdain, shake off a paralyzing spell through sheer grit, pull a knife from their belt and spike an enemy guardsman while charging the evil Vizier with a longsword... that's a pretty good start. Edit: rout mercenaries? Who are working for money? Try "rout elite, loyal guardsmen who would give their lives and souls for their master" at 20. 90s Cringe Rock fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Oct 17, 2011 |
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Oct 17, 2011 15:52
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chrisoya posted:I mean, "kill a guard with a thrown dagger at the same time as charging a bad guy" is maybe 5th level at most. Show me. The guard is a level 2 warrior in scale male with Dex 12 and Con 11. You get a fifth level fighter with normal starting gold. You are ten feet away from the guard, who is ten feet in front of the Vizier.
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Oct 17, 2011 15:57
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pawsplay posted:Show me. The guard is a level 2 warrior in scale male with Dex 12 and Con 11. You get a fifth level fighter with normal starting gold. You are ten feet away from the guard, who is ten feet in front of the Vizier.
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Oct 17, 2011 16:03
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I propose everyone here go read the Malazan Book of the Fallen series. In it are several Fighter archetypes that feel incredibly powerful even in comparison to Mages (which are just as powerful as they should be). He manages to make fighters seem good beyond just swinging a sword. Notable characters are Karsa Orlong, Dassem Ultor and possibly Temper (feels more like a mid-level fighter). I would like to note that throwing a knife and taking out a person would be well beneath these characters abilities, to say it is what a truly heroic person should be just capable of is laughable. Antinumeric fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Oct 17, 2011 |
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Oct 17, 2011 16:06
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pawsplay posted:Show me. The guard is a level 2 warrior in scale male with Dex 12 and Con 11. You get a fifth level fighter with normal starting gold. You are ten feet away from the guard, who is ten feet in front of the Vizier. His point isn't that you can do that now - it's that it's what you should be able to do.
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Oct 17, 2011 16:07
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pawsplay posted:Go toe to toe with a hydra, maybe tie the world long jump record in mail armor, kill an ogre in one hit, jump a horse across a chasm, rout a squad of mercenaries by killing one of them with disdain, shake off a paralyzing spell through sheer grit, pull a knife from their belt and spike an enemy guardsman while charging the evil Vizier with a longsword... that's a pretty good start. So a 20th level fighter should be equivalent to a 7th level wizard or so, good to know.
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Oct 17, 2011 16:14
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pawsplay posted:I don't think non-spellcasters cast spells. Fighters should be extraordinary. But they shouldn't be forced to be magical in order to be extraordinary. Call it what you like, but jumping thirty feet through the air and cutting a metal wall in half is magical. If I'm running a superhero game, I don't balance Superman with Batman by giving Batman heat vision. Guys, guys. Lay off of Pawsplay. He just wants the fighter to hurry up and swing his little stick so that the real players can get to warping reality.
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Oct 17, 2011 16:15
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GaryLeeLoveBuckets posted:Guys, guys. Lay off of Pawsplay. He just wants the fighter to hurry up and swing his little stick so that the real players can get to warping reality. What better rationale could there possibly be for writing a book of eleven base classes, none of which have a caster progression?
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Oct 17, 2011 16:32
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GaryLeeLoveBuckets posted:Guys, guys. Lay off of Pawsplay. He just wants the fighter to hurry up and swing his little stick so that the real players can get to warping reality. Stop being silly. Fighters being conceptually weaker than Wizards is a genre problem. Players of power disparity isn't fun though, and making fighters magical doesn't address the problem in a way that everybody likes.
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Oct 17, 2011 16:38
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Mojo Jojo posted:Stop being silly. Fighters being conceptually weaker than Wizards is a genre problem. Players of power disparity isn't fun though, and making fighters magical doesn't address the problem in a way that everybody likes. That's not magic.
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Oct 17, 2011 16:42
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chrisoya posted:Allowing level 20 fighters to maybe if they ask nicely kill a mook while they charge the bad guy is taking "NO AWESOME ALLOWED" a bit too far. Maybe the question was not phrased very well. Nobody asked what a level 20 fighter should be able to do that a level 19 one, or level 10 one, can't.
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Oct 17, 2011 16:45
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pawsplay posted:Maybe the question was not phrased very well. Nobody asked what a level 20 fighter should be able to do that a level 19 one, or level 10 one, can't. If I asked you what a 20th level wizard could do I'd bet you would not say- Can throw an fireball that has a small explosion when it hits.
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Oct 17, 2011 16:48
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pawsplay posted:Maybe the question was not phrased very well. Nobody asked what a level 20 fighter should be able to do that a level 19 one, or level 10 one, can't.
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Oct 17, 2011 16:48
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Mojo Jojo posted:Stop being silly. Fighters being conceptually weaker than Wizards is a genre problem. Players of power disparity isn't fun though, and making fighters magical doesn't address the problem in a way that everybody likes. It is an exaggeration, but I don't see how being able to cut through something that's really hard or jumping really high is a problem for a class that's already outshined by 3/4 of the people at the table.
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Oct 17, 2011 16:51
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Mojo Jojo posted:Stop being silly. Fighters being conceptually weaker than Wizards is a genre problem. Players of power disparity isn't fun though, and making fighters magical doesn't address the problem in a way that everybody likes. The fighter/caster disparity as we know it is ONLY as bad as it is in 3.x and its kin, and I find it utterly bizarre that people who should be aware of so many other games, from OD&D to FantasyCraft to FATE, where this disparity is much smaller at worst and nonexistent at best, insist that there's just no possible way to balance the two without "making fighters magical" (which, apparently, includes "jumping farther than real humans can" or "being stronger than real humans can be"). LogicNinja fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Oct 17, 2011 |
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Oct 17, 2011 18:14
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LogicNinja posted:It's not really a genre problem--Conan repeatedly took on wizards and sorcerous beings. It's only a genre problem if you define "magic" as "do anything you want in 6 seconds flat with no drawbacks or consequences" like 3.x does. Magic and non-magic can be balanced. Please do not introduce strawmen into this argument.
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Oct 17, 2011 18:30
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pawsplay posted:Magic and non-magic can be balanced. Please do not introduce strawmen into this argument. I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where I was responding to "Stop being silly. Fighters being conceptually weaker than Wizards is a genre problem." Anyway, exactly how far/high can a level 20 Fighter jump before it ~breaks verisimilitude~ for you?
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Oct 17, 2011 18:37
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LogicNinja posted:I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where I was responding to "Stop being silly. Fighters being conceptually weaker than Wizards is a genre problem." That is true regardless of game system. Your comment about games like OD&D and Fantasy Craft makes no sense because the issue is exactly the same there. Balance can be achieved in other ways, but conceptually, a character who can alter reality has more possible strategems than one who has a sword. quote:Anyway, exactly how far/high can a level 20 Fighter jump before it ~breaks verisimilitude~ for you? Verisimilitude isn't even the right word. No one has any illusion that the characters in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon are respecting real-world physics. However, it would be a significant change if they jumped up to the moon to fight, and used their swords to direct the sunlight of space as lasers at each other. D&D intersects genres where dudes with swords are legimitate protagonists. The answer depends a lot on how far a "normal" swordsman can jump in the genre before you start comparing them to PCs. Jumping fifty feet is perfectly fine, maybe even underwhelming, for an Exalted style campaign. For a game based on the D&D world of Mystara, it should be pretty close to verisimilitudinous, shading into "action movie" physics and Conan stories.
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Oct 17, 2011 18:46
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pawsplay posted:Go toe to toe with a hydra, maybe tie the world long jump record in mail armor, kill an ogre in one hit, jump a horse across a chasm, rout a squad of mercenaries by killing one of them with disdain, shake off a paralyzing spell through sheer grit, pull a knife from their belt and spike an enemy guardsman while charging the evil Vizier with a longsword... that's a pretty good start. CR 4 for a basic five-headed hydra. DC 30 to break the real-world long jump record (with a penalty for armor). CR 3 for an ogre. No specific width given for a chasm, but you're probably visualizing about 30 feet or so which is the same as the long jump, so same DC but you make a horse do it. CR for a mercenary leader is theoretially equal to his level. The spell is a Will save, so scaled DC. The enemy guardsman, again, has CR equal to his level. PF doesn't do XP scaling, but it's illustrative that in 3.5 that hydra CR would give zero XP to a level 12 character for soloing it. The system does not even consider that the hydra should be a speed bump for a character at half the level you're talking about. Except for the long jump, you're not talking about a level 20 character. You're not even really talking about a level 10 character. What you're describing, other than the long jump, is a level 6-8 character. The long jump in full armor, on the other hand, is something a level 20 fighter presently is unlikely to manage without magical assistance (or, uh, that one Tome of Battle stance you hate because it lets you jump so far). Edit: pawsplay posted:Verisimilitude isn't even the right word. No one has any illusion that the characters in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon are respecting real-world physics. However, it would be a significant change if they jumped up to the moon to fight, and used their swords to direct the sunlight of space as lasers at each other. So you remember how Mystara was based on old, pre-AD&D stuff, right? And you remember how back in those days, when you reached the limit of what we would today call pre-epic play, you then transitioned to Immortal? You are not Conan at level 20. At level 20, you are, at least in theory, Hercules. You are the biggest badass ever born of mortal woman. If you want to be Conan, at least as you perceive him, you're talking level 6-10 play depending on where in his adventures you're talking about. This is underscored by what you're talking about as "what a high-level fighter should do" being basically level 6-10 challenges. Maybe very high-level D&D/PF just isn't for you? There's no shame in that; I don't really enjoy the game much above 15 and I have a friend who refuses to play above 12. The system breaks down above that level for many of the reasons that we've been going over. Benly fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Oct 17, 2011 |
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Oct 17, 2011 18:54
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pawsplay posted:That is true regardless of game system. Your comment about games like OD&D and Fantasy Craft makes no sense because the issue is exactly the same there. quote:Balance can be achieved in other ways, but conceptually, a character who can alter reality has more possible strategems than one who has a sword. If you have a 50% chance of getting eaten by a demon every time you try to alter reality, your power is pretty sharply limited, for example. quote:Verisimilitude isn't even the right word. No one has any illusion that the characters in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon are respecting real-world physics. However, it would be a significant change if they jumped up to the moon to fight, and used their swords to direct the sunlight of space as lasers at each other. (Also, intersects? I'm pretty sure dudes with swords are supposed to be legitimate protagonists in all of D&D ever--you know, being one of the four most basic classes and all.)
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Oct 17, 2011 18:55
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LogicNinja posted:The balance between fighters and casters in OD&D is vastly better than it is in 3.x. Same with FantasyCraft. Even more so with, say, Legends of Anglerre. You could still decide not to cast the spell. I freely admit that Pathfinder spellcasting could be better balanced. quote:I'm confused. Did you just suggest that if we're playing D&D in the Mystara setting, there should be a harsher cap on how high my Fighter can jump than if we're playing in Eberron or FR or whatever? You asked how the game should be designed. It really depends on what you would consider a good outcome. quote:(Also, intersects? I'm pretty sure dudes with swords are supposed to be legitimate protagonists in all of D&D ever--you know, being one of the four most basic classes and all.) There are entire swaths of the fantasy genre where "guy who uses a sword and has no magic powers" is not a viable heroic type. If I were writing a Harry Potter game, and someone said, "I want to be a muggle," I'd be like, "That could be tricky to pull off." Benly posted:You are not Conan at level 20. At level 20, you are, at least in theory, Hercules. You are the biggest badass ever born of mortal woman. If you want to be Conan, at least as you perceive him, you're talking level 6-10 play depending on where in his adventures you're talking about. This is underscored by what you're talking about as "what a high-level fighter should do" being basically level 6-10 challenges. I disagree with your assumptions. At any level, Conan is still Conan and not Hercules, unless he starts being (whether defined in-game this way or not) magical. If you run a Star Wars game, a level 20 Jedi might be the Chosen One, but a level 20 Scoundrel is still just a scoundrel. Just a very, very, very good one. pawsplay fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Oct 17, 2011 |
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Oct 17, 2011 19:17
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pawsplay posted:You asked how the game should be designed. It really depends on what you would consider a good outcome. quote:There are entire swaths of the fantasy genre where "guy who uses a sword and has no magic powers" is not a viable heroic type. If I were writing a Harry Potter game, and someone said, "I want to be a muggle," I'd be like, "That could be tricky to pull off." This applies to games like Mage, which are explicitly about mages only no jocks allowed. quote:I disagree with your assumptions. At any level, Conan is still Conan and not Hercules, unless he starts being (whether defined in-game this way or not) magical. If you run a Star Wars game, a level 20 Jedi might be the Chosen One, but a level 20 Scoundrel is still just a scoundrel. Just a very, very, very good one.
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Oct 17, 2011 20:10
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Well, thanks for your responses, pawsplay. We're at the point now where I understand what your feelings are. Again I don't agree, but I've no interest in pursuing an argument where neither of us sees things the same enough to convince the other.
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Oct 17, 2011 21:49
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LogicNinja posted:That's pretty much a non-answer. Are you honestly suggesting that an acceptable amount of Jump bonus should vary for a D&D fighter from world to world (but, of course, wizards get the same spells in every setting)? As is so often the case when you ask that, no, I am not. What spells wizards get in a setting, and indeed how they cast them, varies considerably more than the amount of wire-assisted jumping and greenscreen allowed for the jocks from one game to another. quote:I'm fine with setting a gritty campaign at a lower level, e.g. a Heroic tier campaign in 4E, or "E6" for 3E, or whatever, but why would this affect what level 20 rules are like? You are working under some a priori assumptions about whate level 20 is like. Sure, if you want to play a game of demigods, everyone should level up as demigods together. I don't think we actually disagree about that at all. I feel like, in making your case for parity between the classes, you are refusing any room for disagreement on specific aesthetic or mechanical preferences as to how to go about that. In my view, if level 20 fighter is Hercules, something has gone wrong if at level 10, the characters were Fafhrd, the Grey Mouser, and Conan. quote:Sure, but those swaths aren't D&D, Given that D&D now includes Shardminds as a race and Demigod as an Epic Destiny, and apparently, in theory, Gamma World, I am very cautious about what I label as "not D&D" these days. quote:which has explicitly had Fighting Men as heroic protagonists since day one. If a version of D&D is implemented so as to make Fighting Men not be heroic protagonists, that's a failure of implementation, not a true implementation of the genre. I don't see anything about these last two paragraphs to disagree with.
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Oct 17, 2011 22:04
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pawsplay posted:
MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Oct 17, 2011 |
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Oct 17, 2011 22:11
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MadScientistWorking posted:D&D has included Gamma World since AD&D so I'm not entirely sure why the hell you are so confused about that fact. AD&D included rules for converting Gamma World, which is not the same thing.
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Oct 17, 2011 22:29
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Metamorphosis Alpha, on the other hand, has been part of D&D since 1980. And Gamma World is part of Metamorphosis Alpha continuity. This is like the soap opera snowglobe.
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Oct 17, 2011 23:00
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