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40 OZ posted:Yeah, like the Star Wars prequels versus the old trilogy. Great example. Lucas wasn't even the director for V and VI.
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Oct 18, 2011 20:55
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40 OZ posted:Why shouldn't directors edit their own movies? Games aren't developed by one person though.
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Oct 18, 2011 21:04
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Capcom at least already has expert tournament level players for an internal testing team that plays the poo poo out of the games during development and offers their thoughts on game balance and bugs and stuff. For example, they are nerfing snapbacks in UMVC3 even though the player community hadn't really done too much creative stuff with them, based on stuff the internal testers found. So basically this is already what you have proposed, it's just a bunch of guys instead of 1 guy and they are called testers instead of designers or whatever. Edit: Some S-Kill quotes on this topic: http://www.shacknews.com/article/62815/capcoms-seth-killian-talks-super posted:Let me just say, for anyone that doesn't know this, the people at Capcom QA are killer. People are like, "Capcom QA didn't even know about this." Capcom QA knows about almost everything. Not absolutely everything because a million great players playing together will discover things that QA didn't know about. But the QA guys are no joke. http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2010/mar/23/shoryukencom-interviews-seth-killian-about-ssf4/ posted:There's a lot more to being a good tester than simply being an excellent competitive player, but yes, our games are played by high-level players under NDAs. There have been some names you'd recognize from SBO, but it's not Daigo and Justin if that's what you're thinking--the testers are full-time Capcom employees. While Capcom QA is a pretty closed shop, it's well known in the Japanese games industry that Capcom QA is the most hardcore unit in the business, and I can say firsthand that the team is full of some real beasts. As an example, some of you may remember a strong SF3:3S player named Raoh (played on Japan's 3S team, been to a couple of EVOs and beasted, etc.). He no longer works for Capcom QA (so I can talk about him), and while that was before my time, I'm told he wasn't able to win their internal competitions. So top 8 at EVO, SBO qualifier, and the Japanese national team doesn't necessarily mean you win inside of Capcom QA. The testers are serious business. ZerodotJander fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Oct 18, 2011 |
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Oct 18, 2011 21:14
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Archive of last nights ST tournament is up on Youtube for anybody that missed the stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnI2oA5oFTM
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Oct 18, 2011 21:38
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I cracked so hard at the end. 
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Oct 18, 2011 21:40
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I think the point is more that game development can become a really insular process, and it helps to have someone to counterbalance that. I remember reading an extended article about Valve's development of Portal 2, wherein they spent many months of development time working on a game that they really thought (at the time) was a cool sequel, and it utilized a completely different mechanic from the first game. Then they had some of their puzzled family and friends play it, which prompted them to realize "What the gently caress are we doing? We're making a Portal game with no portals in it." They shelved the project after almost a year of work and started over from the beginning. Portal 2 ended up being a great game, and whatever they were working on before may make an appearance in some other form later, but it's fortunate that they got some outside influence to renew their focus, else Portal fans would've been pretty loving confused by what Portal 2 would've ended up being. Fighting game developers have traditionally not allowed for that level of outside influence on the direction of their games – in fact, I'd say that's true of most Japanese developers in general. It's true that having a cohesive vision for your game is not a bad thing, but if the mechanics you're designing aren't fun and you're completely closed off to feedback from anyone outside your development team, the chances of your game being good are pretty low. Valve has the benefit of being a massively successful company that can more or less develop what they want, how they want, when they want; Capcom, large as it is, can't afford the same level of investment into every fighting game they crank out. Namco has done a pretty good job of incorporating the feedback of high-level Tekken players without completely bending to their whims, so it's clear that there is a way to make that approach work. And I think Skullgirls has a lot of our interest because of the unprecedented transparency of its development: Mike Z appears to be making thoughtful design decisions and knows what game he's trying to make, but there have also been changes in response to player feedback to ensure that the final product is enjoyable. It's a fine line, I suppose. Most players in any genre really have no idea what it is that they want, although they'll swear up and down that they do. A fighting game developed solely based on the opinions of Shoryuken posters would be a scary thing indeed.
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Oct 18, 2011 21:42
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ZerodotJander posted:I cracked so hard at the end. I cracked right at the beginning.  Then I couldn't connect to the guy in loser's so I forfeited.
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Oct 18, 2011 21:51
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ZerodotJander posted:Capcom at least already has expert tournament level players for an internal testing team that plays the poo poo out of the games during development and offers their thoughts on game balance and bugs and stuff. Seth has also dropped hints that there's some anti-Phoenix strat that the community at large hasn't figured out, hasn't he? If these things are removed for Ultimate, I gotta say, I really wanna see them.
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Oct 18, 2011 22:02
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It'd be funny if Capcom did a "and here's the glitches you DIDN'T abuse" release after ultimate drops.
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Oct 18, 2011 22:04
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AXE COP posted:It'd be funny if Capcom did a "and here's the glitches you DIDN'T abuse" release after ultimate drops. You have no idea how badly I want to see this now.
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Oct 18, 2011 22:11
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Considering the state MvC3 shipped in I have a hard time believing in Capcoms amazing QA team.
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Oct 18, 2011 22:40
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Wezlar posted:Considering the state MvC3 shipped in I have a hard time believing in Capcoms amazing QA team. This pretty much sums up my thoughts on things as well. I find it odd that anyone outright believes anything S-Kill says anymore. Seth Killian is a professional liar. For example, he is the one that claimed Hakan was a good character before SSF4 dropped. This is an outright lie. It is literally his job to tell the community things that will appease them.
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Oct 18, 2011 22:51
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- 'Ken will have a new move in SSF4' - 'SSF4 walkspeeds will be the same as those in ST' - 'MVC3 will have an epic story mode' - 'MVC3 will be supported after launch with many balance patches' - 'We meant for Sentinel to have 900,000 HP all along' - 'There are no comeback mechanics or gimmicks in SFxT'
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Oct 18, 2011 23:18
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Oh hey, if you play on the yomi dev server and hit shift+b at the character select screen you can play as in development expansion characters. It looks like most of their special abilities aren't programmed in yet though. Edit: heh, one of them is Vega Fenn the Fool! fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Oct 19, 2011 |
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Oct 19, 2011 00:34
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That game is actually pretty fun to waste some minutes with, didn't know Sirlin made card games/whatever the hell those are.
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Oct 19, 2011 00:59
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Whiskey A Go Go! posted:Pretty sure what he was trying to say is: It was actually a c/p I guess I've been lurking YOSPOS too much lately. Sirlin is pretty obnoxious when he randomly critiques things like 3so but HDR is pretty cool other than not having original backgrounds so whatever.
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Oct 19, 2011 00:59
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Fenn the Fool! posted:Oh hey, if you play on the yomi dev server and hit shift+b at the character select screen you can play as in development expansion characters. It looks like most of their special abilities aren't programmed in yet though. Wait, do you have a link to this? How do you play Yomi online?
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Oct 19, 2011 02:21
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https://www.fantasystrike.com/dev you can play puzzle strike there too Fenn the Fool! fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Oct 19, 2011 |
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Oct 19, 2011 02:31
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Any Floridians going to EXPcon?
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Oct 19, 2011 02:52
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Niddhogg posted:Any Floridians going to EXPcon? I had never even heard of this before but it looks pretty awesome. I might try to find a way to go, St. Augustine is like 3-4 hours away.
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Oct 19, 2011 03:02
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Cat Machine posted:- 'SSF4 walkspeeds will be the same as those in ST' Did he really say this?
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Oct 19, 2011 03:56
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Zand posted:This pretty much sums up my thoughts on things as well. I find it odd that anyone outright believes anything S-Kill says anymore. Seth Killian is a professional liar. For example, he is the one that claimed Hakan was a good character before SSF4 dropped. This is an outright lie. It is literally his job to tell the community things that will appease them. Actually, considering how feature-rushed MvC3 is, it's actually pretty decent in terms of glitches. By the way in case it wasn't obvious, many of the changes in the SF4 series stray more towards anti-frustration than high tier balance.
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Oct 19, 2011 04:39
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Niddhog where do you live in Florida? I probably won't go just curious.
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Oct 19, 2011 05:39
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Wezlar posted:Considering the state MvC3 shipped in I have a hard time believing in Capcoms amazing QA team. You've never programmed anything before, so of course not. It's pretty hard to appreciate what isn't in a product.
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Oct 19, 2011 05:58
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If people honestly think that MvC3 and SFIV are badly QAed fighters, I mean compared to other games in their own respective series they are probably the most balanced and have by far the least bugs. It isn't the QA's job to point out design problems, which is where most of my problems with the games come from, balance and bug wise except for the DHC glitch in MvC3, and the unblockable ultra glitch in vanilla(thank god this was discovered only a bit before super shipped), they have been pretty solid with not having game breaking bugs. Even then the DHC glitch isn't as bad as roll canceling in CvS2 or anything. Honestly I'm pretty willing to believe that they do have a pretty solid QA team at Capcom.
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Oct 19, 2011 07:23
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I don't think it's possible to make a fighting game without goofy glitches like Guile's handcuffs.
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Oct 19, 2011 07:41
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e: stupid in retrospect
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Oct 19, 2011 07:42
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e: woops wrong thread
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Oct 19, 2011 07:48
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ShinsoBEAM! posted:If people honestly think that MvC3 and SFIV are badly QAed fighters, I mean compared to other games in their own respective series they are probably the most balanced and have by far the least bugs. It isn't the QA's job to point out design problems, which is where most of my problems with the games come from, balance and bug wise except for the DHC glitch in MvC3, and the unblockable ultra glitch in vanilla(thank god this was discovered only a bit before super shipped), they have been pretty solid with not having game breaking bugs. Even then the DHC glitch isn't as bad as roll canceling in CvS2 or anything. Honestly I'm pretty willing to believe that they do have a pretty solid QA team at Capcom. Generally some of the best kind of QA is the kind that are better than Designers at the game, and can actually bring up good points and raise valid concerns!
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Oct 19, 2011 07:53
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I should note that MvC3 has far fewer gamebreaking glitches than MvC2 and claiming that Capcom's current QA team is "bad" is objectively wrong to the point of willful ignorance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1aiSTjr37w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXOQp5D20fY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anf9f6ppRvI Broken Loose fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Oct 19, 2011 |
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Oct 19, 2011 08:24
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Were we talking about bugs and glitches or deliberate decisions? This is confusing.
40 OZ fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Oct 19, 2011 |
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Oct 19, 2011 15:14
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Unrelated, but does anyone have the alt.games post where Seth Killian talks about how much he hates gimmick systems?
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Oct 19, 2011 15:55
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Cat Machine posted:Unrelated, but does anyone have the alt.games post where Seth Killian talks about how much he hates gimmick systems? Found this topic with lots of quotes and links I can't access at work : http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/seth-killian-comments-on-the-current-state-of-fighting-games-from-the-past.104110/
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Oct 19, 2011 16:05
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"No one is confused about the economic factors influencing Capcoms decisions. But they are making weak games." - 1996 (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/msg/19dc75c5c1136c30)
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Oct 19, 2011 17:01
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Skullgirls walkthrough from NYCC http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GG67Xoms0Ig fix yr hearts fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Oct 19, 2011 |
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Oct 19, 2011 17:25
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kaujot posted:Skullgirls walkthrough from NYCC I love how it switches to best of 3 automatically if it's a 1v1 match. It's a cool touch and makes sure the match isn't over too quickly.
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Oct 19, 2011 18:12
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I'm not saying I think the QA team is awful, they do a decent job. But considering they couldn't find the DHC glitch, the spencer glitch, the zero glitch, the captain America infinite, and sentinel shipped with 10 billion health etc. I kind of have a tough time believing that if you faced them against the top players in the world at whatever game that it would be a "bloodbath."
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Oct 19, 2011 18:21
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I thought noone considered sentinel health to actually be a/"the" problem?
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Oct 19, 2011 18:31
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Sentinel health nerf was a knee-jerk reaction to the week 1 Sentinel hate, nothing more.
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Oct 19, 2011 18:40
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Wezlar posted:I'm not saying I think the QA team is awful, they do a decent job. But considering they couldn't find the DHC glitch, the spencer glitch, the zero glitch, the captain America infinite, and sentinel shipped with 10 billion health etc. I kind of have a tough time believing that if you faced them against the top players in the world at whatever game that it would be a "bloodbath." Well, they were too busy fixing the Tron glitch, Ryu's infinite, the glitch when beam hypers clash, the crashes when Devil Trigger ran out at the same time as other effects, 85 Magneto glitches, toning down an incredibly broken Thor, the console bricking when left and right were held at the same time, your save data getting deleted every time you start a new Arcade Mode game, and numerous other things. Did you know that initially, Dark Phoenix's health didn't drain? And her feather projectiles never dissipated? No, seriously. Do you even know what you're talking about? Mortal Kombat shipped with a day zero patch to get rid of 4 infinites that were even easier than Captain America's. The demo shipped with 2 infinites where you just hit jab over and over. If you change a character's costume, it ignores any patches they received. The game will desync if the opponent didn't download the costumes you downloaded in the order you downloaded them. Marvel 3 is by no means a perfect game, but most of its problems are due to intended design flaws and not unintentional programming oversights. If you think Marvel 3 is a glitchy game, you haven't played very many games and obviously aren't qualified to make such a statement.
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Oct 19, 2011 18:40
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