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quote:If you want our money, accept our rules Mary Sue is correct here. So long as economic power remains in the hands of a capitalist elite, that elite will always have political power over the masses. As we see with the present bout of "austerity", such welfare as the rich deem fit to bestow on the rest of us can and will be withdrawn whensoever they become arrogant enough to demand it. This is why reformism will inevitably fail: it seeks to fix an unfixable system.
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Oct 24, 2011 07:01
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El Boot posted:Holy poo poo. From Facebook: The most glaring retardacy I see here is that: you can be a recipient of all of these things and still have a job. So her assumption that all of these people are jobless is just flat out ignorant.
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Oct 24, 2011 07:05
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El Boot posted:Holy poo poo. From Facebook: So we should micromanage the affairs of individual welfare recipients down to the items on their shopping lists if they receive a pittance from the government, to make sure it isn't "wasted" on such petty things as But when we give banks, oil companies, corporations, private prisons, and defense contractors billions in taxpayer subsidies and tax breaks, it would by socialistic tyranny to do a single thing to hold them responsible and make sure they do not loot their employees' pensions to give themselves increasingly gigantic bonuses, commit massive fraud, let their oil wells and coal mines explode, dump poison in the air or water, taint our food with E. coli, put lead in our paint, or cover up rape. And what the hell, "For you to vote would be a conflict of interest?" Who the hell doesn't have an interest in what the government does?! Dr Christmas fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 07:24
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I agree with her but let's take it further. Anyone who gets a tax credit can't vote. Or has ever participated in any government program. If you've ever interacted with a government employee, you're disqualified.
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Oct 24, 2011 07:46
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El Boot posted:Holy poo poo. From Facebook: The place to begin is the assumption that poor people are lazy and don't work. These people don't actually realize that poor people work a gently caress of a lot harder than they do just to stay alive. The key question for these people is: What would you do with a person working 60 hours a week at minimum wage that is on those programs? Then remind me them that 99.9999% of the people on those programs fall in that category. That's about $700 a paycheck for working 50% more than the average work week, and barely enough for a single person to afford the absolute bare necessities. Now ask them what that person is supposed to do when they get sick. As an aside, I think a concerted effort to educate the US about the reality of poverty would do more to help the poor at this point than anything else. Everyone needs to start linking on Facebook that poverty money management game that has you forced to make extremely poor decisions due to circumstances that are no fault of your own. ErIog fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 08:37
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El Boot posted:Holy poo poo. From Facebook: Free barracks living?, no personal rights nor possessions? , jobs given by government? Sounds like authoritarian communism
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Oct 24, 2011 09:20
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El Boot posted:Holy poo poo. From Facebook: "If you are on this program and want anything material or not just above animal feed, GET A JOB" ... "You have to HAVE A JOB all the time while you are on this program" Okay then!
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Oct 24, 2011 13:09
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myron_cope posted:I agree with her but let's take it further. Anyone who gets a tax credit can't vote. Or has ever participated in any government program. If you've ever interacted with a government employee, you're disqualified. If you pay any taxes you can't vote. You might vote for lower taxes and that would be a conflict of interest.
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Oct 24, 2011 13:30
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myron_cope posted:I agree with her but let's take it further. Anyone who gets a tax credit can't vote. Or has ever participated in any government program. If you've ever interacted with a government employee, you're disqualified. ...so what if I had a summer job for the Social Security Administration one year? 
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Oct 24, 2011 13:34
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Friar Zucchini posted:...so what if I had a summer job for the Social Security Administration one year? Just be glad you aren't in jail!
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Oct 24, 2011 16:33
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El Boot posted:Holy poo poo. From Facebook: I got that in email form yesterday, I was about to post it here this morning. Like others have said, the first place to start any discussion about welfare (of any kind) is making sure people understand who exactly is "poor". Because the conservative rhetoric makes it quite clear that they don't know how people become poor. I also love the way the email/post catches the attention of old people ("written by a 21 yr old female who gets it") and supports the forced sterilization of poor people. First, I'd start with this idea that poor people shouldn't have nice things. Yet, its very easy for "poor people" to have nice things. My family currently has a pretty solid income, but only a single income. If I lost my job and was out of work for several months we'd be in big trouble. Enough time and we'd lose our house, end up on Welfare, Medicaid, and Food Stamps. But, we'd still have our big HDTVs, Blu-Rays, Desktop computer, laptops, smart phones, two cars, etc. Because they're all paid for. Falling into poverty doesn't make those things all suddenly disappear and just because we are poor today doesn't mean that we were a year ago. In fact, I suspect it's easier to fall down the socio-economic ladder than it is to move up it in today's economy. Plus, it can be quite useful for people looking for work to have internet and cell phone access, but that may be digging too deep. Secondly, I'd explain who beneficiaries are. According to the USDA half of all the money for food stamps goes to feeding children. Close to another 10% (in 2006) were over the age of 60. Why don't they just get a job? But the biggest issue is the idea that people who benefit from government programs are lazy unemployed welfare queens. A single mom, with two kids in elementary school, working full-time at $8/hour ($16k a year) is eligible for the following programs / benefits (though exact details vary from state to state and county to county): *TANF (Welfare) SNAP (Food Stamps) Medicaid Free School Breakfasts/Lunches Section 8 housing Heating/Cooling subsidies No Income Tax *-TANF varies wildly between states, more so than other programs. You can work your rear end off and still get these benefits. But the conservative goal for decades has been to turn people against the poor, while crying over class-warfare. Just remember, whenever you go to Walmart, you're being greeted and checked out by people that rely on Food Stamps to eat. 
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Oct 24, 2011 17:36
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ErIog posted:The key question for these people is: What would you do with a person working 60 hours a week at minimum wage that is on those programs? Do you have a source for this? I'd love to be able to respond with it. She replied that she was just glad to see a 21 year old thinking for herself, because it's rare. I guess I don't count because all of my opinions are fed to me by evil professors or something.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:04
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El Boot posted:She replied that she was just glad to see a 21 year old thinking for herself, because it's rare. I guess I don't count because all of my opinions are fed to me by evil professors or something. Doubly ironic when everything in the e-mail is regurgitated conservative talking points that are spoon-fed to the writer (probably not a 21-year-old, but an appeal to "even some young adults get it!") and the intended reader.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:09
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Written by a 10 year old! See, this kid gets it why can't those idiots in Washington wake up!!!!
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Oct 24, 2011 19:34
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That always just reminds me of those 'invented by a schoolteacher!' Airborne tablets. Surely I want to trust my respiratory health/government to someone who has literally no expertise in the relevant field.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:48
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gently caress beating around the bush, just point out in a concise bullet point list on why anyone who agrees with that email is an immoral fascist. Forced sterilization goes beyond simply not understanding what it means to be poor. It goes into Nazi poo poo.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:52
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:gently caress beating around the bush, just point out in a concise bullet point list on why anyone who agrees with that email is an immoral fascist. Forced sterilization goes beyond simply not understanding what it means to be poor. It goes into Nazi poo poo. Not to mention putting the poor in "army barracks" (ie. concentration camps) and taking away their right to vote. It's literal fascism.
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Oct 24, 2011 20:01
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El Boot posted:Do you have a source for this? I'd love to be able to respond with it. Thinking for yourself isn't very useful if your thoughts are based on complete fabrications of reality. ErIog's numbers are obviously exaggerations, but it is true that people can work long hours and still end up on those programs. The major exception is TANF, or true "welfare money". "Welfare" tends to be used to describe all government assistance, but TANF is the traditional "give poor people cash" program. And it's administered at the State level, and many states have extremely strict income requirements. On top of that they have work requirements already, and there are lifetime limits. A family can only receive TANF in Georgia for 48 months, ever. So the idea that people mooch off of TANF forever doing nothing is crazy. Georgia TANF Work Requirements posted:Applicants for and recipients of cash assistance have a work requirement and must participate in work activities in accordance with federal TANF guidelines. In twoparent families, both parents are required to participate in work activities. A recipient must participate in work activities as soon as determined by the State to be ready or when cash assistance has been received for twenty-four months, whichever comes first. As for other forms of welfare, working 60 hours per week at $8/hour at two different jobs (no overtime pay) nets you $24000 a year. In a number of states, that would qualify a family of 3 for Food Stamps and Medicaid. But making $24,000 a year actually puts you above more than 20% of Americans in income. The poorest 20% of households in the country make under $20,000 a year (http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=330). A single mom, with one child working only 40 hours a week at $9/hour qualifies for all kinds of benefits, despite working a full time job. And an individual, with no kids, working full time at minimum wage qualifies for a small amount of Food Stamps and Medicaid (depending on the State). And as one last example, it's possible for someone in their 70's to be receiving Social Security, Food Stamps, Medicare and Medicaid benefits. (Get that fucker a job!) As for straight up statistics, it gets a little more difficult. People are on and off of welfare, food stamps, and medicaid all the time as their employment changes. According to the 2000 Census, 80% of married households on welfare (TANF) worked. But among unmarried parents, only 53% worked. However, you have to remember these people are only allowed to get Welfare for limited time without working, and for a limited number of total years. So the 47% of non-married, non-working parents on welfare in 2000, are not the same people not working in 2005 or 2010. There's change that the raw number of 53% doesn't really do justice to. (http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0046.html#Tab1) Also, those numbers are only for true welfare. Haven't been able to find similar number for Food Stamps and/or Medicaid recipients that work. TANF is hard to get on if you have reliable employment; but it's much easier to get Food Stamps and Medicaid while employed, especially if you have kids. So I would expect the numbers to skew more towards "works" than "no work" for those programs. Sarion fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 20:08
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Orange Devil posted:Not to mention putting the poor in "army barracks" (ie. concentration camps) and taking away their right to vote. It's literal fascism. Deep down they realize this: Crazy Facebook Post posted:Before you write that I've violated someone's rights, realize that all of the above is voluntary. They just want you to look past it, as if "getting money for food and shelter" is loving voluntary.
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Oct 24, 2011 20:17
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Man it's like you people just don't get it. The only people on welfare are those who already make thousands a week tax free by drug dealing, pan handling or having babies. They just use the welfare money to pay for the niceties like tattoos and rims. Also they use their food stamps to buy steak and lobster from a van, probably from a Mexican who gets all of the above plus free college tuition for his anchor babies.
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Oct 24, 2011 20:38
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People that have the idea that welfare recipients are lazy leeches have it so far entrenched into their little brains that it's nearly impossible to get it out. My fiancee's mother had a Quest card when they were growing up, as she was a poor single mother. My fiancee initially denied this until her brother and I called up her mom on speaker phone and asked her point blank. After being told she was wrong, she then said that her mom was only on it "a little while", even though she had no idea whether it was true or not. She literally reframed the entire thing in her head as to somehow make her mom one of the "acceptable" ones, as she obviously couldn't reconcile the fact that her mom was a hard worker that was good with money, and that her mom was on government assistance. Conservatives seem to short circuit easily.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:06
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My parents were on welfare and food stamps when I was about 8 and my younger brother was a few months old (early 90s) after my dad lost his job. I remeber brushing my teeth with baking soda. Government programs got us through that rough time and now my dad makes six figures. And it loving pisses me off when I read poo poo like that. I'm in the military, and constantly hear my coworkers spout off bullshit like this. I can't believe I have to remind them that all of our medical care and tax free basic allowances for food/clothing/housing are paid for by taxes while we work full time jobs: exactly like the majority of people on welfare. As an E-5 SSgt, in addition to my $2800/mo. base pay, I receive: -$325.04/mo tax free for "subsistence": food stamps -$1137.00/mo tax free for housing: gov't subsidized housing -$400/year tax free for clothing -Government subsidized medical care -Goverment subsidized higher education
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Oct 24, 2011 22:35
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Tell them Adam Smith called from the 18th century and left a message. "You're a loving psychopath!".Adam Smith posted:A linen shirt … is, strictly speaking, not a necessary of life. The Greeks and Romans lived, I suppose, very comfortably though they had no linen. But in the present times, through the greater part of Europe, a creditable day-labourer would be ashamed to appear in public without a linen shirt, the want of which would be supposed to denote that disgraceful degree of poverty which, it is presumed, nobody can well fall into without extreme bad conduct.
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Oct 24, 2011 23:12
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Crossposted from asking for advice, here's a fun convo I'm having. I'm Peter:
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Oct 25, 2011 00:13
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His defense is all over the map there. Consumers don't buy direct from china, the poor didn't receive the stimulus,the rich love to create jobs (really??). There is no real reason to argue with people that dumb on facebook because they wont actually read what you say or write informed/sourced opinions edit: He also says money should be given to the rich because if it was given to the poor they would just pay their bills and it would go to the rich. uhhh Pead fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Oct 25, 2011 |
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Oct 25, 2011 00:24
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Also ask them why the rich would create new jobs while demand is down.
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Oct 25, 2011 00:33
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Beerdeer posted:Crossposted from asking for advice, here's a fun convo I'm having. I'm Peter: Let's list the things your friend doesn't understand: - Marginal utility of money. - Super-rich and shareholder interests are about maximizing profit, not "challenges". - If demand is met without hiring more people, there is no inherent incentive to hire. - Being able to pay bills is far better than debt slavery even if it just goes "back into the hands of the corporations". The rich get paid anyway, but everyone's in a better situation. - People are sometimes incentivized and rewarded for firing people, not because they are greedy or evil, but because of external interests or pressures.
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Oct 25, 2011 00:34
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You know, even though I'm an elite news watcher/D&D lurking superstar on the beating pulse of political idiocy, I still can't quite pinpoint when exactly the lionization of the rich as munificent job creators took root. oh please mr. rich man let your golden shower trickle down on us from atop your porcelain throne
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Oct 25, 2011 00:42
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Back during the midterm elections, a conservative buddy of mine posted ALRIGHT AMERICA! TAKE OUT THE TRASH! Knowing that neither he, nor any of his cheerleaders would know any of the policy positions or agenda of the newly anointed GOP controlled house, I asked to ask anyway. (I'm blue} 
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Oct 25, 2011 01:37
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yaoi prophet posted:That always just reminds me of those 'invented by a schoolteacher!' Airborne tablets. Surely I want to trust my respiratory health/government to someone who has literally no expertise in the relevant field. An awful lot of these forwards seem to start with some variation of, "This was written by a law student / med student / doctor / transexual clown. I don't know what he's running for, but I'll vote for him!" It's a prime for the reader, to get them into the "Wow, common sense wisdom, why aren't all the boneheads in Washington thinking like this?" mentality. But it always comes off like something out of Reader's Digest or something; feeble attempt to seem "folksy" or something. Either way, it annoys the piss out of me.
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Oct 25, 2011 01:41
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MisterFusion posted:Back during the midterm elections, a conservative buddy of mine posted War on Christmas? Really? Really? Isn't "Happy Holidays" the invention of businesspeople in a free market who were trying not to alienate non-Christian customers? It relates to its sibling, "Press one for English." They do that because they want to. Business people want everyone to use their services, even if they don't speak English!
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Oct 25, 2011 01:50
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Dr Christmas posted:War on Christmas? Really? Really? I hate it when my xenophobia conflicts with my belief in the free-market. I blame Obama for perfectly legitimate yet non-communicable reasons.
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Oct 25, 2011 01:56
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Dr Christmas posted:War on Christmas? Really? Really? Not to mention no one has to "Press one for English". It's press two for spanish. I didn't know she was even talking about the war on christmas bullshit. How can someone be so willfully ignorant as to think the POTUS has somehow forbidden people to say God or Merry Christmas?
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Oct 25, 2011 01:58
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MisterFusion posted:Not to mention no one has to "Press one for English". It's press two for spanish. I didn't know she was even talking about the war on christmas bullshit. How can someone be so willfully ignorant as to think the POTUS has somehow forbidden people to say God or Merry Christmas? Obama = Secret (not so secret we know about it) Muslim Muslims = People who hate Christmas Therefore: Obama = Person who hates Christmas I don't really get how the US has turned into some socialist nation in the last 3 years at all, it seems that all people would have to do would be to look around and see the rich getting richer and financial corporations making massive profits to realize that things are the way Reagan wanted. I think these people have such a crazy idea of who Obama is that they probably believe 100% of what they say, it's beyond hyperbole.
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Oct 25, 2011 02:11
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MisterFusion posted:Not to mention no one has to "Press one for English". It's press two for spanish. I didn't know she was even talking about the war on christmas bullshit. How can someone be so willfully ignorant as to think the POTUS has somehow forbidden people to say God or Merry Christmas? Immediately after Obama was elected, someone took some bill that was passed, tried to read it themselves, and came to the conclusion that Obama was making it illegal to fish now. No one can fish anymore. If you grab a fishing pole, police will come after you. I've seen an ancient link to that posted not too long ago and the responses were "Ugh, get this guy out of the White house!" and "That's going too far!!" People don't even rationally or logically think about it. "Why would he do that? Is that information accurate? How would that go about? Why have I not heard anything? How would Congress pass that? What about fishing communities? What about sea-food restaurants?" There's a billion reasons that's retarded, but it's still going on.
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Oct 25, 2011 02:28
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So, I had a college History professor that was All-About-Ron-Paul. When I had his class, I would get into arguments with him daily, because he incessantly injected libertarian philosophy into his history lessons. At the end of last year, he asked me to be his TA because he enjoyed our 'spirited debates.' I despise him for his views, but he's an okay guy in his way. I turned him down, because I would have an aneurysm putting up with his poo poo for any longer than I needed to. I just got a Facebook friend thing from him, with the attached message, "I don't know how we never noticed, but I live two doors down from you! Hi neighbor!" So regretfully, I didn't know how I could avoid accepting the friend request. And now I get to see a constant stream of insane trash on my feed! Right off the bat, today he linked to a Wallstreet Journal article BY JOHN YOO, extolling the virtues and jurisprudence of Clarence Thomas. I don't even know where to begin.
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Oct 25, 2011 02:35
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XyloJW posted:So, I had a college History professor that was All-About-Ron-Paul. When I had his class, I would get into arguments with him daily, because he incessantly injected libertarian philosophy into his history lessons. At the end of last year, he asked me to be his TA because he enjoyed our 'spirited debates.' I despise him for his views, but he's an okay guy in his way. I turned him down, because I would have an aneurysm putting up with his poo poo for any longer than I needed to. You can hide people's statuses from showing up without unfriending them. There should be an option when you go to hide an individual story, but that might've changed with the latest redesign. Also holy gently caress, that's a hat trick of conservative shitheels, WSJ, Yoo and Thomas all in one.
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Oct 25, 2011 02:49
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MisterFusion posted:Not to mention no one has to "Press one for English". It's press two for spanish. I didn't know she was even talking about the war on christmas bullshit. How can someone be so willfully ignorant as to think the POTUS has somehow forbidden people to say God or Merry Christmas? But yeah, it's an international phone card. I'm probably one of the only people around here buying it who don't have Spanish as a first language.
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Oct 25, 2011 02:49
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Unfortunately, this is what a far right conservative hears when you tell this story:MisterFusion posted:
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Oct 25, 2011 03:06
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:You can hide people's statuses from showing up without unfriending them. There should be an option when you go to hide an individual story, but that might've changed with the latest redesign. Also holy gently caress, that's a hat trick of conservative shitheels, WSJ, Yoo and Thomas all in one. I know I could do that, but A) it's the first day and immediately I see that come up, and B) I'm kind of curious how far the rabbit hole goes. I was also surprised, since as a Libertarian, I thought he would despise Yoo and Thomas for their support of torture. Also, haha, I just looked at his interests: "Southern secession."
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Oct 25, 2011 03:08
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