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fixed my link 
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Oct 24, 2011 20:43
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 20:36 |
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I don't want to add too much more to this execution discussion but I didn't see anyone bring up the point that if things like a dragon punch motion became 1 button moves, or if super/ultra motions were shortened, or if any changes were made that basically decreased the time component of inputting the move it would completely change how the game is played. In the case of something like SF4 it would be for the worse. The last thing that game needs is to give people the chance to react even later with those sorts of powerful moves. Just going with the 1 button DP in SF4 as an example: It's strategically interesting that Ryu needs a certain amount of time to react properly with this DP and that he has to leave block to do it. As an anti-air, it's one of Ryu's most powerful options but that's its limitation. In some match-ups, like vs. Deejay who can choose to alter his jump trajectory (and hence his airtime) significantly you see Ryu players tend towards using cr.FP instead. It's a one button anti-air so although it's not invincible, does less damage, and doesn't knock down it's a more reliable option than the DP (example match here: http://youtu.be/5YxGhIo5sM8). It's also interesting that Adon sets up a similar problem for Ryu with his Jaguar Kick, but Ryu can't solve it with cr.FP because Adon's move tends to win out, even if the moves trade. Ryu HAS to DP to win out but it's a very tense situation every time and a difficult match for Ryu because of it. Ryu's DP being what it is there's plenty of applications for it in non-anti-air situations too that would become fairly ridiculous as well. As it is he can buffer his DP in anticipation of something he wants to react to and hit but there's a risk there since he has to leave block. Often when I fight smart Abel players that know I'm scared of Abel's Wheel Kick and will try to DP it as often as possible they will begin hitting me with Abel's sweep - a move they otherwise wouldn't want to use since it tends to get Abel hit vs. Ryus not trying to catch Wheel Kicks. None of these interactions exist if Ryu's DP becomes one button or any other over-simplified input. Over simplifying Ultras would have the same effect for other situations. Some players have better reflexes and/or are smarter (and know the best time they should try to buffer and catch something) and can pull off some of these things more safely and reliably than I can, but that's what makes them better players. Justin Wong is extremely good at hitting a reaction ultra against a fireball or what have you that by casual observation seems as "random" as anything else the player could have done, but he's smart and fast enough to make the play. Of course he can't always do it, such as when he famously hosed up vs. Gamerbee at Evo 2010 with TWO "random" Ultras. When I see someone overcome the "execution component" of these situations it's impressive and it makes me enjoy the match and respect the player that much more. That's already more than I intended to write about this but there's a simple example for a single game that I hope illuminates why not everyone wants Smash Bros. controls for FGs. Trykt fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Oct 25, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 20:50
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Fenn the Fool! posted:I'd like to get a serious discussion going as to the purpose of difficult inputs.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:08
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Dandy J posted:Games with difficult inputs aren't made anymore, so you're good to go. Seeing you (and this post, ironically) reminded me: I caught wind of the "SC5 is good" SRK front page article so I went to 8WR to see how my main was holding up. Of hundreds of posters in the Ivy forum, like 1 had played her prior to SC4. And Namco was still on the ball to alienating her player base yet again! She has all her stances removed, Summon Suffering is now a super, and Criminal Symphony is performed by doing the following: gently caress you, Namco.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:16
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Gamest Mook posted:It's this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sob01PmaSp4 Does anyone else prefer Sagat as the giant fucker that he is in HDR and SFIV? I love a lot of the sprite work in ST, but I never liked him being so lanky.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:23
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^^^^ I like the 10 foot tall, brick of muscle SF4 version of Sagat over the ST one, too. He just looks wimpy in ST. Wait how does Ivy even work without stances? I mean it might make her playable by mere mortals, but does she only have the sword state now or something? Or am I misunderstanding? I've only dabbled a bit in SC4 with Mitsurugi, Siegfried, and Cassandra. And I can't tell whether that motion is better or worse than before. Wasn't it previously something like db, qcf, ub, db, df? gently caress that poo poo.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:23
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Boxman posted:Does anyone else prefer Sagat as the giant fucker that he is in HDR and SFIV? I love a lot of the sprite work in ST, but I never liked him being so lanky. Alpha Sagat is the best Sagat
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Oct 24, 2011 21:25
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Boxman posted:Does anyone else prefer Sagat as the giant fucker that he is in HDR and SFIV? I love a lot of the sprite work in ST, but I never liked him being so lanky. Yeah a ton of characters look really weird in ST. I still love the art though.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:26
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Boxman posted:Does anyone else prefer Sagat as the giant fucker that he is in HDR and SFIV? I love a lot of the sprite work in ST, but I never liked him being so lanky. Comparing ST to SF4, it looks like the entire cast have been using way too many steroids in the interim.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:27
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chumbler posted:Wait how does Ivy even work without stances? I mean it might make her playable by mere mortals, but does she only have the sword state now or something? Or am I misunderstanding? I've only dabbled a bit in SC4 with Mitsurugi, Siegfried, and Cassandra. She's always in Sword mode now and her weapon changes just as an effect of her moves. Compare to SC4 where they removed 1 stance, added 2 new ones, made all moves exclusive to each stance and reduced her overall move count, changed the directional inputs of SS and CS from 376231 to 1236173, and switched which stances SS and CS come from just because. Just imagine if they changed the input for Hadoken to something wildly different every single game.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:28
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Konstantin posted:Comparing ST to SF4, it looks like the entire cast have been using way too many steroids in the interim. You should've seen Bison in Alpha 3. Fucker was ripped. Broken Loose posted:Just imagine if they changed the input for Hadoken to something wildly different every single game. I'm pretty sure every other iteration of KoF and Fatal Fury changes Geese's Deadly Rave combination. Not that that really means anything, just thought I'd bring it up. v v
PalmTreeFun fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 21:29
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Gamest Mook posted:Alpha Sagat is the best Sagat This is so correct.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:30
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Gamest Mook posted:It's this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sob01PmaSp4 I'm confused. Wasn't that just because the timer hit 0 before the damage? Nifty, but not something new.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:31
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ZerodotJander posted:I'm confused. Wasn't that just because the timer hit 0 before the damage? Nifty, but not something new. Totally didn't notice that. In that case there's not much new in there really.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:33
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Gamest Mook posted:Totally didn't notice that. In that case there's not much new in there really. Is the t hawk noogie into crossup cr.hp known technology? I assume it's character specific or obtuse enough to time that it's not worth actually going for.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:42
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Jmcrofts posted:Is the t hawk noogie into crossup cr.hp known technology? I assume it's character specific or obtuse enough to time that it's not worth actually going for. I'm fairly sure I've seen it before... the timing window to get those backwards moves is really tight so it's probably not practical. Actually watching again I don't think I've ever seen that weird backwards hitting Cammy backfist before.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:47
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PalmTreeFun posted:
Nope. Always been a pretzel. Even when he showed up in CvS.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:51
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Deadly Rave is his rush super, not his Raging Storm.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:55
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:Deadly Rave is his rush super, not his Raging Storm. Well, hell. 
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Oct 24, 2011 22:01
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PalmTreeFun posted:You should've seen Bison in Alpha 3. Fucker was ripped. Bison in A3 looks like someone pumped his dictator outfit full of marshmallow fluff. I also hate his super high arc scissor kicks, it looks like he's launching off a gymnast springboard or something. I like tall, starving ST Sagat over ripped and ready to murder beefcake SFIV Sagat. Especially because his TU and TK in ST look super cool.
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Oct 24, 2011 22:24
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MLIOOBE posted:Bison in A3 looks like someone pumped his dictator outfit full of marshmallow fluff. I also hate his super high arc scissor kicks, it looks like he's launching off a gymnast springboard or something. Unfortunately most of SF4 Bison's moveset is based off Alpha Bison including those goofy looking scissor kicks :I
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Oct 24, 2011 22:27
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Trykt posted:I don't want to add too much more to this execution discussion but I didn't see anyone bring up the point that if things like a dragon punch motion became 1 button moves, or if super/ultra motions were shortened, or if any changes were made that basically decreased the time component of inputting the move it would completely change how the game is played. In the case of something like SF4 it would be for the worse. The last thing that game needs is to give people the chance to react even later with those sorts of powerful moves. Speaking of 1 button moves, Fenn the Fool should just play SSF4 on the 3DS where you can macro all your specials to the touch screen and press them to win! No execution required I'm sure anyone who played that version knows how well it did.
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Oct 24, 2011 22:54
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infinite99 posted:Speaking of 1 button moves, Fenn the Fool should just play SSF4 on the 3DS where you can macro all your specials to the touch screen and press them to win! No execution required Pfft it was fine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO9Abphtro4
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Oct 24, 2011 23:01
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Dandy J posted:Games with difficult inputs aren't made anymore, so you're good to go.  Although I guess it's only a "feature" that makes ridiculous combos possible in that game anyways
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Oct 24, 2011 23:06
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Broken Loose, what do you even use that move for? I mean that input is inexcusable no matter what, but it's really heinous if that's something you use a lot. I have to wonder if Namco wants/expects people to play Soul Calibur on pad nowadays.
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Oct 24, 2011 23:16
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Broken Loose posted:Seeing you (and this post, ironically) reminded me: I put more time into Ivy than anyone else in sc2. I remember when SC3 came out and I tried her for the first time, I was like "What the gently caress is this  "SC4 wasn't any better, Ivy peaked at usability in sc2.
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Oct 24, 2011 23:22
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Ybrik posted:Pfft it was fine I can't find the video that's of a Japanese tournament for SF4 3DS where it was just two Guiles spamming Sonic Boom at each other.
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Oct 24, 2011 23:24
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ImperialGuard posted:Broken Loose, what do you even use that move for? I mean that input is inexcusable no matter what, but it's really heinous if that's something you use a lot. Ivy is a character with the longest-range weapon in a game with no projectiles, but her speed isn't very high. To compensate, she has an SPD-style command throw that does tons of damage and completely dominates her close-range game. The move we're talking about is that throw.
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Oct 24, 2011 23:32
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That's a throw?  What's the old command?
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Oct 24, 2011 23:52
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Is that the one with the ludicrous input that I can't even remember, let alone do? Weird SC changes work both ways, though. I mained Voldo in SC3 (in 8th grade, so I wasn't any good) and when I tried him out in SC2 it was really confusing. They even changed the input for Blind Stance, but at least Cagliostro Rush->that move where he french kisses the opponent was the same.
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Oct 25, 2011 00:02
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Anyone know a better place than CD Japan for preordering Carnival Phantasm S3 to the US? $175 is pretty nuts even for Melty but the 1.07 videos are making me hype enough that I'll probably buy it anyway orz
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Oct 25, 2011 00:15
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Armor-Piercing posted:That's a throw? I should note that the old motion was actually somewhat intuitive given that you cross neutral only twice and only as a result of a quick up-back tap during a lengthy DP motion. The newest motion crosses neutral 6 times and actually consists of nearly twice as many inputs (because you can't just go 28284666, you have to go 2828465656). Oh, and one more thing: Soul Calibur has Tekken-style throw breaks, where the window is large but you have to guess if the opponent used an A-button throw or a B-button throw. Well, you could tech these command throws (SS was B and CS was A) just as normal, but in Soul Calibur 5 they changed them to the same button. As in, you can always tech out by mashing A.
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Oct 25, 2011 00:37
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Soul Calibur is so hosed every time. It's like when you pickup KOF and you have no idea which inputs will work for Ryo Terri or Kyo this time. And those are the staple guys! I love SC though. Even 3 and 4. Loved making characters and running stupid challenge maps and just mashing away in its weird single player fantasy land. But actually trying to play SC on any competitive level anymore is just silly, and I think it's obvious Namco does not care about that for SC.
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Oct 25, 2011 01:01
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Kageneko posted:But actually trying to play SC on any competitive level anymore is just silly, and I think it's obvious Namco does not care about that for SC. I would actually say they do care, at least a little. It shows because SC4 got patch treatment iirc and SC3 had a revision. Its just that the series is terrible.
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Oct 25, 2011 02:35
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SC is more fun the less you know about SC. When it's two people who know extremely little mashing away and laughing at ludicrous comeback ring-outs it's pretty fun.
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Oct 25, 2011 03:31
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Groghammer posted:SC is more fun the less you know about SC. When it's two people who know extremely little mashing away and laughing at ludicrous comeback ring-outs it's pretty fun. More like its only fun when one person knows something really fuckin stupid and hard to deal with and the other person doesnt, and the person with the broken poo poo is me
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Oct 25, 2011 03:33
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That sounds a lot like all my fond memories of the original, yeah.
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Oct 25, 2011 03:41
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Anime games are the best about that poo poo. In Arcana Heart 3 there's that one witch with the animated staff that has moves where you have to do crazy poo poo like 837918 within a window of 10 frames or something ridiculous like that.
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Oct 25, 2011 03:49
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The Rokstar posted:Anime games are the best about that poo poo. In Arcana Heart 3 there's that one witch with the animated staff that has moves where you have to do crazy poo poo like 837918 within a window of 10 frames or something ridiculous like that. You have like 60-70 frames to do it but as long as you can knock it out in 40 or so you can do it fast enough for it not to matter much. The motion is to just draw a star like you do in school. Any form of a star works I do 834618, I don't think 837918 works. I'm just sad I can't just spin the stick 2.5 times with Ivy and get the stupid input throw anymore, you could impress your other dumb 12 year old friends by being able to pull it off. Now the new generation of 12 year olds will actually have to learn it  .Other poo poo is bad too Fiona's XCH, is a 2 frame input window after you have to wait for some 3 seconds in a cutscene, and the mash required for Akane's XCH lv5 would make MvC2 pro mashers go woah. ShinsoBEAM! fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Oct 25, 2011 |
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Oct 25, 2011 04:18
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 20:36 |
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ST Honda specialist Kusumondo talks about sticking to a character despite hard matchups, the difference between high- and low-level fighting game players, and other stuff: http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/translated-super-turbo-player-interview-god-honda-kusumondo.147711/#post-6008291 I'm all for picking the character that gives you the best odds of winning, but I think there's something to be said for the dedication it takes to play ST loving Honda for almost 20 years 
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Oct 25, 2011 05:05
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