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Red2401 posted:"What sort of story would this be, with our Knight and Seer made to stay cadavers? Certainly not one the alpha timeline would allow."  Well, that statement is certainly relevant to the flash. I really do love how this story references itself so much, giving us a hint that they both would go god tier.
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Oct 26, 2011 12:43
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Oxxidation posted:Anyone who did not see the Green Sun plan going topsy-turvy months ago is the kind of person I would describe as a sucker. I'm not sure how many people were expecting them to end up creating the Green Sun, though. Personally I thought the bomb wouldn't work, like it would be too small to blow up the whole Green Sun, or maybe Dave would get there just in time to pull Rose away and thus the moon base would drift off in a different direction before exploding. Hussie seems to be good at doing exactly what we expect, but in a way we never expected.
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Oct 26, 2011 15:15
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SteelAngel2000 posted:I wonder if Prospit's hierarchy has a counterpart to Jack that we just haven't seen and who isn't really relevant to the story. If there was, he probably couldn't get out of his office. Nilbop posted:Isn't the entire point of Jack that he's an anomaly? Jack himself isn't an anomaly; he is generated in every game session, otherwise there wouldn't have been a Jack for the troll session. What IS an anomaly is Jack getting one of the rings. Fortis fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Oct 26, 2011 |
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Oct 26, 2011 15:16
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Tensei posted:As was mentioned, it sounds very much LIKE something that would be in one of those games, but really is its own thing (to me it actually sounds like something from a Studio Ghibli movie). That doesn't indicate any plagiarism, but just shows a really intricate understanding of that particular style of music on Beatfoxes part. Yeah, right. I'm on to you guys. Frog Forager? Clearly a straight up copy of like every JRPG town theme ever. I've already sent a letter to Square-Enix's lawyers, enjoy spending the next 20 years in copyright jail you plagiarizerers.  Midnight Raider posted:I can't believe after months of "So and so is turning evil I don't regard it as a serious line of speculation in any event, but inasmuch as I've given it any thought I've been looking at it from the perspective of what Derse and the gods from the furthest ring are all about. There's always kind of been a question mark surrounding the split between Prospit/Derse dreamers and why some of the players are associated with the "evil" faction. The troll game was even explicitly divided into opposing teams, which Vriska eventually figured were supposed to actually fight--and even now, there's currently a symbolic split in how the living troll and human players are divvied up into Prospit and Derse dreamer groups. For a while it just seemed to be an alternate source of guidance: the Prospit dreamers got visions from Skaia, the Derse dreamers got whispers from the furthest ring, both factions were working towards the same end. But now we know that the gods of the furthest ring have been manipulating events towards Lord English's ultimate ends the entire time. Maybe they were just duped. Maybe they were playing along with what was preordained to happen. It certainly seems there's a decent likelihood they're not playing for the good guys' team, though, and that casts those that serve them in a new light. Again, just because Rose and Dave (and Aradia?) have been working with gods that have been working with the Big Bad does not mean they themselves are evil--they may realize they've been played or accept what's been done as a necessary for causality's sake, and immediately turn around and work to undo what they've been manipulated into doing. But the possibility remains that they might choose to roll with it and stick with whatever agenda the dark forces have. There have been hints before that Rose and Dave may not quite be cutting it as heroes, and Dave in particular seems aware and resentful of this. The significance (if any) of the alternate Quest Beds is still an open question, too--the quest beds out in the various lands are all essentially tied to Skaia (that's where the newly risen gods appear), while the quest beds in Derse, obviously, have a connection to Derse and everything it represents. Are they just there as a backup plan, or does the players' choice of which bed to use (choices as players being a very strong recurring theme of the game) mean they're somehow throwing in their allegiance with one side or the other? Ultimately, while there are still unanswered questions about the significance of Derse, its dreamers, its quest beds, and its gods, I don't seriously regard outright confrontation as a probable outcome. It's still an interesting line of speculation until we get those answers, though.
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Oct 26, 2011 15:31
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" people are still doing it completely unironically.
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The thing is, even if everyone and their mother knew that they were being played for fools, there's nothing they could do about it. The Green Sun has to be created somehow because it has always existed. The entire act has been preparing the reader to deal with inevitable circuitous causality.
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Oct 26, 2011 16:12
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I like to imagine that in a normal session, a Scratch is exceedingly difficult to complete, and the fight it causes is nearly unwinnable. I imagine the sheer difficulty of the encounter means that most of your remaining party will die.
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Oct 26, 2011 16:59
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That's assuming that normal sessions exist. Or OTHER SESSIONS AT ALL exist. I don't think they do, and considering that the omniescient narrators are ALSO unreliable narrators, I think that's not such a stretch! e: Also considering that the trolls and humans were responsible for the creation of the Green Sun, which is the energy source for the First Guardian, an aspect of every session. So these two sessions are at least incredibly special. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Oct 26, 2011 |
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Oct 26, 2011 17:06
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DocFrance posted:That's assuming that normal sessions exist. Or OTHER SESSIONS AT ALL exist. I don't think they do, and considering that the omniescient narrators are ALSO unreliable narrators, I think that's not such a stretch! They're incredibly special, but I'm not going to make the radical leap that they're the only sessions. Consider how many times we've been told outright that everything possible is out there. This is paradox space, and there is a lot of implication that there are endless sessions, many Doc Scratches and plenty of universes devoured by Lord English. These are just the unusual worlds involved in the birth of the Green Sun.
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Oct 26, 2011 17:14
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Of course they're not the only two sessions, we know fedorafreak made it into another one 
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Oct 26, 2011 17:17
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At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple Green Suns.
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Oct 26, 2011 17:24
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Zoolooman posted:They're incredibly special, but I'm not going to make the radical leap that they're the only sessions. Consider how many times we've been told outright that everything possible is out there. This is paradox space, and there is a lot of implication that there are endless sessions, many Doc Scratches and plenty of universes devoured by Lord English. These are just the unusual worlds involved in the birth of the Green Sun. These could be the first two sessions of the game, not counting and previous resets. The reason everyone talks about other sessions even though they haven't been created yet is because of, you know, paradox space and weird time poo poo
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Oct 26, 2011 17:25
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Every session we know of has been thoroughly screwed up in some way - it seems like most Earth sessions failed without even a single entry, we've been watching the existing human and troll sessions, the previous troll session didn't get as far as ectobiology, and some other session (which even after Cascade still seems more likely to be a reset human session than anything else) is about to have a bunch of gods and aliens smash into it. fedorafreak's session also seems to be heavily abnormal in that he didn't even know there was a game going on, and it's unclear whether there are any other players in it or how far he'll get. (Was that his quest bed or wasn't it? We'll never know, until he suddenly comes in from offscreen when everyone's preparing for the final battle and just oneshots Lord English.) There might be other sessions out there that didn't spawn from some version of the human or troll universe. Maybe players who have absolutely nothing to do with either universe involved in the absurd mess that created the Green Sun, if they exist, are actually able to just play the game normally and make their new universe, but it's hard to know because if so, none of them are ever going to be relevant to the main story.
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Oct 26, 2011 17:27
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Surprisingly, the scratch itself got very little screentime in the flash. Almost felt incidental to everything else. Ideally it should reset the universe and spawn a new Sburb session, but how can that really happen with Bilious Slick presumably dead? Will the completion of the scratch after Jade/John and the planets left simply reset that particular incipisphere? Meaning we'd have a Sburb session with no corresponding universe? Or is Bilious Slick still partially alive, and much of the coming drama will be winning before he dies for good?
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Oct 26, 2011 17:35
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I just noticed that Jack Noir wound up destroying the universe belonging to the session he belonged to. SS Pockets the 8-ball while Bec Noir kills BS with Red Miles
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Oct 26, 2011 17:35
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One possibility I've been kicking around is that Sburb was a sovereign entity, but through its multiple permutations and paradoxes an incrementally developed systemic glitch (LE and/or the Green Sun) coopted it. The Troll/Kid sessions are the glitch's masterstroke, cementing the stranglehold on causality, but presumably what we've just seen has also laid the grounds for Sburb/the system/whatever's counterattack.
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Oct 26, 2011 17:38
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Nate RFB posted:Surprisingly, the scratch itself got very little screentime in the flash. Almost felt incidental to everything else. Ideally it should reset the universe and spawn a new Sburb session, but how can that really happen with Bilious Slick presumably dead? Will the completion of the scratch after Jade/John and the planets left simply reset that particular incipisphere? Meaning we'd have a Sburb session with no corresponding universe? Or is Bilious Slick still partially alive, and much of the coming drama will be winning before he dies for good? That might explain why Jade's been making the Genesis Frog in spite of the session being null, and why she brought all five planets instead of just the four that she was obliged to take. To recreate the universe once Lord English has been dealt with. Honestly, I'll be very surprised if any real length of time was spent on the new session, half the cast are gods now, and the rest are aliens who are just a step below that. The big drama is going to be focused on the defeat of Lord English and the Green Sun, given how the "Universe Color-Code" for Act Six is green (Which also implies they might physically enter it for the space of the Act?)
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Oct 26, 2011 18:03
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Hamiltonian Bicycle posted:(Was that his quest bed or wasn't it? We'll never know, until he suddenly comes in from offscreen when everyone's preparing for the final battle and just oneshots Lord English.) If this doesn't happen then I'll have to file an official complaint with MSPaint Adventures! This gross insubordination cannot stand! 
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Oct 26, 2011 18:04
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I just had a good laugh thinking of how, of all people, FedoraFreak, a throw away name of a dude with a penchant for urine, found his way into a sburb session, found a quest bed and died on it. It's just so absurd. Can't wait to get back to some regular updates. We're now in unknown territory, minus any future flashbacks.
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Oct 26, 2011 18:16
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There's no suggestion that these are the first sessions either. A different off-screen session created the troll universe, after all. These are very important, bizarre sessions that are intimately connected and form the basis for the creation of a vital entity in Paradox Space, the Green Sun, but they are not necessarily the first or the last.
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Oct 26, 2011 18:52
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Alectai posted:That might explain why Jade's been making the Genesis Frog in spite of the session being null, and why she brought all five planets instead of just the four that she was obliged to take. To recreate the universe once Lord English has been dealt with. I can't imagine an entire act just focusing around fighting a single guy with super-powered protagonists. It'd be DHMK all over again. I think the main cast (or at least the kids) are too powerful now to be interesting enough to carry an entire act. Having the new universe, with a new game and new players, be the focal point for at least the beginning of this act seems like it's been pretty heavily foreshadowed! Plus it would really jive with Hussie's style to switch views at a dramatically heavy point. I would be very surprised if we didn't spend any length of time on a new session. It just... wouldn't make any sense, in the story or as a narrative, not to. Plus it would really be in keeping with the rest of Homestuck if we had a much bigger story (defeating Lord English) being resolved inside a much smaller one (a new session with new players). Also, doesn't the scratch reset the whole universe? As in, basically recreate it? So wasn't Jack killing BSlick pretty much a moot point since it was going to end anyways (and be reset)? I mean I was under the impression the old universe was done for regardless, I was pretty sure the scratch reset everything, not just the session! (Ok Jack killing BSlick isn't a moot point at all, since it created the Green Sun, but you know what I mean). ^^^^^ Andrew outright stated SBURB (or SGRUB or whatever) is how universes reproduce. I really have no idea where anyone got the idea that these are the only sessions? There's been absolutely no evidence, inside the story or out, that this would be the case. These are important sessions of course, which is why the story is focused on them, but I really don't see why they would the first, last, or only ones 
Starmaker fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Oct 26, 2011 |
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Oct 26, 2011 18:55
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Zoolooman posted:There's no suggestion that these are the first sessions either. A different off-screen session created the troll universe, after all. These are very important, bizarre sessions that are intimately connected and form the basis for the creation of a vital entity in Paradox Space, the Green Sun, but they are not necessarily the first or the last. Yeah, the Green Sun is outside space/time. It always existed(and didnt exist), and simply needed a point of creation. It doesnt matter when that is. Starmaker posted:Also, doesn't the scratch reset the whole universe? As in, basically recreate it? So wasn't Jack killing BSlick pretty much a moot point since it was going to end anyways (and be reset)? I mean I was under the impression the old universe was done for regardless, I was pretty sure the scratch reset everything, not just the session! (Ok Jack killing BSlick isn't a moot point at all, since it created the Green Sun, but you know what I mean). It probably needs a Bilious Slick to rewrite, not simply creating a new one.
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Oct 26, 2011 19:01
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Actually that would really explain why a supposedly null session was able to make a new universe frog. They aren't creating a new universe, just remaking an old one. And this time without a horrible tumor. But... what did the scratch do then? If it doesn't in itself reset the universe, then all it did was end the session which... doesn't really seem that impressive. e: Oh wait, I see what you're saying. That'd make sense but then, again, what did the scratch actually accomplish? Nothing, I guess? That plan just didn't go through? And I was all excited to see the adventures of lil' Bro Starmaker fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Oct 26, 2011 |
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Oct 26, 2011 19:06
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Starmaker posted:Actually that would really explain why a supposedly null session was able to make a new universe frog. They aren't creating a new universe, just remaking an old one. And this time without a horrible tumor. The scratch would probably have successfully reset the universe had Jack not been simultaneously murdering it.
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Oct 26, 2011 19:08
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Do we even know if the tadpole survived the Forge? My impression is that what you're supposed to do is take it to the battleground, enter the planet, and in the place of the Tumor is instead a spot where you place the tadpole, transforming the entire planet into a giant egg with births Bilious Slick. So it's not so much that Karkat gave kid universe cancer, it's that he gave it a parasite; it highjacked the universe's reproductive system to create more of itself. (Or, more specifically, temporally-reacharound and create itself). Assuming the tadpole survives, I'm wondering if this story is going to end with twin Bilious Slicks (from the current tadpole and the one from the new version of the universe) both "hatching", providing both the old guard and the new versions a universe to call their own. ... What I'm curious about, at the moment, is if the new version of the kid universe will be largely similar (with the kids and parents switched), or if, like the Troll universe scratch, it results in a much more bloodthirsty place.
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Oct 26, 2011 19:16
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You guys are thinking way too linear. The kid's session is the last Sburb session and the first one at the same time. The kids create the Green Sun (and possibly also Lord English), which being nonlinear propagates itself backwards through the timeline, ensuring its own creation and making sure LE has universes to eat. So in that regard, it's the "first" - but it's also the last (probably) in that we're very definitely leading up to some sort of final showdown with LE leading up to the sequence of events that ends the whole paradoxial clusterfuck that defines existence in Homestuck, leading off to something else entirely. I mean really, would Hussie make the last act anything less confusing? I think not.
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Oct 26, 2011 19:19
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Bobulus posted:What I'm curious about, at the moment, is if the new version of the kid universe will be largely similar (with the kids and parents switched), or if, like the Troll universe scratch, it results in a much more bloodthirsty place. That transformation was implied to be directly as a result of the Handmaiden's (and LE's) influence, and as far as we know LE has no real presence in the kids' universe; remember that the two main signs of this are players not spawned by their session and a cueball guardian, and Earth has neither. The closest thing LE had to an agent on Earth was (possibly maybe) Betty Crocker/Her Condescension, and that's still unconfirmed.
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Oct 26, 2011 19:22
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Bobulus posted:What I'm curious about, at the moment, is if the new version of the kid universe will be largely similar (with the kids and parents switched), or if, like the Troll universe scratch, it results in a much more bloodthirsty place. The bloodthirsty thing only happened because of Lord English/Doc Scrach's meddling. We don't know if he's managed to meddle with the kid's incisphere/universe before the Scratch, so the only way to tell is if Hussie actually shows us.
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Oct 26, 2011 19:24
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Starmaker posted:Andrew outright stated SBURB (or SGRUB or whatever) is how universes reproduce. I really have no idea where anyone got the idea that these are the only sessions? There's been absolutely no evidence, inside the story or out, that this would be the case. These are important sessions of course, which is why the story is focused on them, but I really don't see why anyone would think they are the first, last, or only ones Also consider: if universes can only be created after winning a game of Sburb, who or what created the first universe? And then who or what created the circumstances that created the first universe? …etc. Andrew is putting his own spin on creation myths. He is Doc Scratch. He'll leave stuff out on purpose so he can surprise you later about how everything you thought about the story wasn't the way you thought it was, while still remaining true to his original statements. I think that other universes existing in Homestuck is an obvious possibility, like the possibility that intelligent life exists somewhere in the universe outside of Earth (in real life). But as for right now, we only have two known universes that seem to have been constantly affecting each other's fates from their inception.
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Oct 26, 2011 19:34
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Renaissance Robot posted:That transformation was implied to be directly as a result of the Handmaiden's (and LE's) influence, and as far as we know LE has no real presence in the kids' universe; remember that the two main signs of this are players not spawned by their session and a cueball guardian, and Earth has neither. As Doc Scratch said, every other session is normally a bloodthirsty place warped by his presence, brought about by a flawed previous session that was created by the last "ideal" session, and so forth. So the kids' post-Scratch universe would presumably have Doc Scratch in charge as its guardian so he could make it as hosed up as the trolls' universe. Except this time, Jade managed to create a fresh universe on top of causing the Scratch and escaping, so hopefully that threw things out of joint enough to break Scratch's cycle, or at least interfere with it. Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Oct 26, 2011 |
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Oct 26, 2011 19:35
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Spellman posted:Also consider: if universes can only be created after winning a game of Sburb, who or what created the first universe? And then who or what created the circumstances that created the first universe? …etc. "First", he says. Has Act 5 literally taught you nothing?
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Oct 26, 2011 19:36
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Renaissance Robot posted:That transformation was implied to be directly as a result of the Handmaiden's (and LE's) influence, and as far as we know LE has no real presence in the kids' universe; remember that the two main signs of this are players not spawned by their session and a cueball guardian, and Earth has neither. When you scratch in pool, your opponent gets to place the cue ball anywhere he wants on the table. Sounds a little ominous how relevant that is to events in Homestuck, eh?
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Oct 26, 2011 19:49
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Rasamune posted:"First", he says. Has Act 5 literally taught you nothing? The new universe Jade made will be the "First." PM will defeat Jack and become Lord English and start the cycle that creates herself.
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Oct 26, 2011 19:51
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I'm kind of wondering if the entire Skaia/SBurb(SkaiaBurb?) thing was set up my Lord English. If he eats universes for sustenance, it would make sense for him to be in favour of the creation of new universes. Also, it LOOKS like these two universes are special because they ended up making the Green Sun. But what if lots of sessions have resulted in the creation of the Green Sun, but end up destroying it at the end? Or maybe English eats Green Suns instead of individual universes, like some sort of delicious universe recipe. Take equal parts red and blue universe and lightly fry in shallow oil.. Also John is totally Lord English because he is the Heir. The Time, Space and Light players all die heroically at the hands of Lord English, John inherits their powers and becomes the God of Time, Space, Light and Breath. Slime fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Oct 26, 2011 |
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Oct 26, 2011 19:51
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Zoolooman posted:There's no suggestion that these are the first sessions either. A different off-screen session created the troll universe, after all. These are very important, bizarre sessions that are intimately connected and form the basis for the creation of a vital entity in Paradox Space, the Green Sun, but they are not necessarily the first or the last. Oh, I know. I was just saying that it potentially could be the first two sessions. I don't even think that's likely, but it is possible. Also, why were there two Sollices again? I can't remember what was up with that
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Oct 26, 2011 20:07
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Rasamune posted:"First", he says. Has Act 5 literally taught you nothing?
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Oct 26, 2011 20:08
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KoB posted:Yeah, the Green Sun is outside space/time. It always existed(and didnt exist), and simply needed a point of creation. It doesnt matter when that is. Exactly. And all it takes is a couple semi-failed sessions to pull it off. By using some scratches executed in certain ways, it's possible for Lord English/ his servants to orchestrate the specific mechanisms that are necessary for his existence while still maintaining the propagation of the summoning code along the main-line universes. While the Scratch resets the session/ universe it occurs on, it doesn't make it so the events that occurred never happened; it's just that they're wiped clean and it's all started from page one again. So in other words, it's possible for failed sessions to accomplish things necessary for Lord English's system (such as generating the Green Sun here) and then be wiped clean and made successful sessions afterwards that instead succeed and summon him while creating a new universe for him to appear in. And given that the sessions are probably all locked in a temporal loop of inevitability, it's highly likely that this has happened countless of sessions in both directions of the chain. There not necessarily be a beginning and end. If the sessions loop into each other, it's highly likely that Lord English has a functionally "infinite" existence, capable of moving between sessions (and as we know, between time) at his will. Of course, nothing says that the kids couldn't make their own off-shoot loop outside the one Lord English has. Instead of the Ouroborus of sessions, they could make a splinter that propagates without him. Assuming that that sort of thing doesn't already exist.
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Oct 26, 2011 20:15
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Zorak posted:
Doesn't the green sun only need to be created once though, since in Paradox space it will be able to affect all session ever? Otherwise we get an indefinite (and maybe infinite) number of green suns in the furthest ring and a Lord English for every one of them! It seems like this was the origin of Lord English, but the method of him entering / being summoned into a specific session may be entirely different. Edit: Oh wait, that is what you are saying. Also, am I the only one carving a Homestuck themed pumpkin this year or what? Dr Strangepants fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Oct 26, 2011 |
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Oct 26, 2011 20:28
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People are worrying too much about how Jack's universe-murder and the Scratch interact. Think about it like this. The Scratch overwrites the universe and makes a divergent, fresh alpha timeline. Jack will have always killed the pre-Scratch universe at the end of the pre-Scratch timeline, but he will not necessarily have killed the post-Scratch universe at the end of the post-Scratch timeline. If you're asking where this universe came from, it came from the same frog, but the Scratch has created a second future for it. This is nothing new. These time travel cloning mechanics have already appeared in the story. Both histories will exist. The pre-Scratch history and the post-Scratch history.
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Oct 26, 2011 20:32
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Dr Strangepants posted:Doesn't the green sun only need to be created once though, since in Paradox space it will be able to affect all session ever? Yes, hence why I said "such as". It's possible that there's lots of pre-Scratch sessions where other mechanics are "developed" for their own various reasons, then the developing universe is reset via Scratch so it can move back to the "standard" purpose (propagation).
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Oct 26, 2011 20:34
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Dr Strangepants posted:Also, am I the only one carving a Homestuck themed pumpkin this year or what? If you carve a Homestuck pumpkin doesn't it vanish?
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Oct 26, 2011 20:37
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