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Any criticism at all does not equal dream crushing and outright mockery. I am not apologetic in my criticism either. They're going to face much worse vitriol than our snickering and they shouldn't be white knighted. One of the best things I had going for me when I was an awkward young artist was a guy I knew online who was a professional artist who judged my crappy stuff according to real world standards. I would show him a thing and he would say "It's poo poo. It's actually really really bad. There's literally nothing good about it." I wanted to make art so bad that this actually helped! I started learning how to recognize what was poo poo and what wasn't. The day I finally showed him something and he had a couple of positive things to say about it, I knew I was on the right track. I've attended a private 4-year university for my art education instead of an art school and while great in many ways, I got so sick of weak rear end critiques from faculty who were industry professionals. One thing we have to accept is that we have to get used to people not caring about our work. If these kids want to make games, like for realsies, they're going to whether we have a laugh at their expense or not. For all we know, they'll release a trailer or whatever and it'll be great, and maybe they'll be awesome in the future and look back and laugh at their own bad website and over-eagerness (like we all do) but I personally think that NOT poking fun at them is doing them a disservice, and we're definitely the MOST understanding lot they'll be running into. mutata fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Oct 26, 2011 |
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Oct 26, 2011 16:33
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e:^^ ceebee spent literal years showing me his new thing. At the beginning all he really had was a lot of drive, and now he's got an education and a career (and kicks rear end)Black Eagle posted:But I really don't see why ragging on a 13-year-old boy should be good fun for adults. Because you continuously look past the fact that we are not making fun of children, we are looking at children as naive as we are and laughing at the naivety of youth. It's not mean spirited. We are laughing these kids that are like we were, we are laughing at us. And y'know what, every one of us got there. Maybe I'll see these kids' names on a resume 8 years from now. That doesn't mean it's not funny. For the record, I didn't buy your avatar change, and it took me a second to realize what was going on 
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Oct 26, 2011 16:37
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Sigma-X posted:Because you continuously look past the fact that we are not making fun of children, we are looking at children as naive as we are and laughing at the naivety of youth. It's not mean spirited. We are laughing these kids that are like we were, we are laughing at us. Sigma-X posted:For the record, I didn't buy your avatar change, and it took me a second to realize what was going on
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Oct 26, 2011 16:49
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I think we're all missing the most important thing here: how did the interview with them go Aliginge? Do you think you'll get offered the role?
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Oct 26, 2011 16:49
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Black Eagle posted:No, I get it. I understand where you all are coming from. Over the years, I developed a motto, "Naive today. Wiser tomorrow." I remember wanting to build a Flash MMO when I was 13 and experienced Flash programmers told me that an MMO in Flash was impossible. At some point, I wanted to take on MySpace, too, but Zuckerberg beat me to the high school/college market, primarily because I believed my friends when they said I couldn't do it. MySpace was just too big! Nevertheless, I just feel that it's more productive to help people accomplish their goals rather than just sit back and enjoy the show. We are in the Game Jobs thread, after all. Presumably, we're here to give advice and "school" each other. I went through the hazing when I was a kid. The older devs laughed at me, and between chuckles, pointed me at the information I needed to improve my knowledge. I took it in stride, and it made me a better developer. It taught me that you need to have a hard skin to achieve anything in this industry, or in life period, and so I will probably rib the kids a little bit myself now. I am still nicer than some of those I worked with before... I'm not hostile, for instance, or bitchy. But if a kid turns tail because I make a minor joke about his picture and compare it to Counter-Strike, or chuckle at their team balance - well, that's unfortunate, but I don't coddle. Those that laugh along and get that there's no outright hostility, I help. Hell, I'm going to be giving a talk at CU Boulder here in a few weeks, amongst other things - I actively work in the community to try and help people along. ... so sue me if I crack a light hearted joke now and then  EDIT: And forgive the refrain, but "this is an internet comedy forum." Lighten up. There is nothing mean-spirited here. We found a funny website. We laughed at it for a few minutes. We're moving on. EDIT: Also, let's hold off on the Black Eagle bashing and counter-bushing too, if we could. Funny title was funny, yes, he drops quotes a lot. But yes, he's also talked to a shitload of industry luminaries. Everyone likes to talk about their work, he's no different, let's keep it moving along. EDIT: VV Wait, you're interviewing for somewhere else already? Job not working out, or just moving up in the world? EDIT2: 
Shalinor fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Oct 26, 2011 |
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Oct 26, 2011 16:56
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Smegbot posted:I think we're all missing the most important thing here: how did the interview with them go Aliginge? Do you think you'll get offered the role? They already offerred me the role in their first email I wish I was as proactive as he was at his age, but the rest of the guys there should know better. :/
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Oct 26, 2011 17:33
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Shalinor posted:EDIT: VV Wait, you're interviewing for somewhere else already? Job not working out, or just moving up in the world? We found the funny kids' website because they cold-emailed Aliginge and offered him a job.
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Oct 26, 2011 17:40
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By the way, I was involved with an all-volunteer game project awhile ago. Here's their website. (I tried very hard to get them to write real profiles.) The music is amazing. Midway Games wanted to publish the game at some point, but we turned them down.
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Oct 26, 2011 18:04
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Lotta kids here today from Tribeca Flashpoint. I got put on the spot to talk about how I got here and any advice I could give them.
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Oct 26, 2011 18:05
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Shalinor I think it's time for a new thread title. Game Jobs Megathread #3: 13 year old future millionaire with no talent.
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Oct 26, 2011 18:14
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Diplomaticus posted:Shalinor I think it's time for a new thread title. I think you mean "13 year old future millionaire looking for coders."
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Oct 26, 2011 18:15
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Also Black Eagle's gig is awesome, gently caress all y'all haters.
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Oct 26, 2011 18:16
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Game Jobs Megathread #3: John Romero is quoted in my new book about 13-year old millionaires looking for coders.
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Oct 26, 2011 18:16
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mutata posted:Any criticism at all does not equal dream crushing and outright mockery. All of these had the same thing in common, which is what made it naive: They wanted to be the Next Big Thing, but didn't understand their audience or the art enough to know what made those Big Things so exceptional. They probably didn't really respect their limits either, i.e. how massive of a gulf there is between the technical ability to replicate an existing work and the creative ability to make a new work of similar quality. I don't say they shouldn't be ambitious, but they should realize that doing things because they're fun or enlightening are not the same as doing them because they will be completed or useful.
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Oct 26, 2011 18:19
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Shalinor posted:EDIT: VV Wait, you're interviewing for somewhere else already? Job not working out, or just moving up in the world?  Seriously though DNA Studios is working out fuckin great. I did a Ren-And-Stimpy-style static painting of A DEAD GUY today.
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Oct 26, 2011 18:32
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Aliginge posted:I did a Ren-And-Stimpy-style static painting of A DEAD GUY today. The dream: lived.
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Oct 26, 2011 18:47
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So, after a phone interview for a new position, how soon would you follow up so that you seem interested but not being pesky? A week? Two? I feel like I have to fight for them to even consider hiring ANYONE for this position, so I don't want them to shelve it before I get a chance to try to convince them otherwise..
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Oct 26, 2011 18:49
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Fizzle posted:So, after a phone interview for a new position, how soon would you follow up so that you seem interested but not being pesky? A week? Two? I find one week to be perfectly fine. Two is pretty long. My general rule is to send a quick "Thank you" e-mail immediately after or the next day. Then a follow up one week later.
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Oct 26, 2011 19:02
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Mega Shark posted:I find one week to be perfectly fine. Two is pretty long. My general rule is to send a quick "Thank you" e-mail immediately after or the next day. Then a follow up one week later. Yeah, sent the "Thank You" basically an hour after the call directly to the person I interviewed with. Guess it's time to draft up the Follow up restating what I feel I can bring to the position.
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Oct 26, 2011 19:09
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Fizzle posted:Yeah, sent the "Thank You" basically an hour after the call directly to the person I interviewed with. Guess it's time to draft up the Follow up restating what I feel I can bring to the position. Whatever works for you. Personally, I don't want to be to presumptuous, so basically I say: "I hope you had a great week. Thank you again for the interview last <insert day here>. If there is anything else you need please feel free to contact me by phone (<number>) or e-mail. Sincerely, Mega Shark." I figure they've asked the questions they wanted to ask and I've made the best impression I could. The quick e-mail is just a reminder and let's them know you're more interested than half the other people they may have interviewed.
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Oct 26, 2011 19:15
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After a phone interview, try and prep up a few small things to add to your portfolio, sprinkled across the weeks. Bonus points if they relate to questions that were asked during the interview. Timeline should look something like this: - T+1: thank you email - T+7: "thanks again for taking the time to interview me, I just wanted to let you know that <small addition to portfiolio> - T+14: "Just wanted to update you again on my portfolio, since I <bigger thing> - your question about it in the interview reminded me that I'd never tried it, so, what the heck" Etc. Using this strategy, you can conceivably send a check-in email every 1-2 weeks for months and not have it be annoying (but do drop to more like 2 weeks per after the first month). So long as there's actual content you're adding, it can actually be helpful and mark you out as a strong candidate that responds to criticism/listens/etc. EDIT: Theoretically, this won't be hard, since you should be continuously working on your portfolio while on the hunt. So hopefully you're just letting them know of things you're already doing, and can use them across multiple companies with which you're pending. EDIT2: VV I got my current gig 3 months after a phone interview. It took them ages to get around to starting the hiring process in earnest. The only reason I got remembered was because I kept up polite emails throughout that entire time. Do not give up. Never underestimate how busy or forgetful the HR staff / team leads / etc that you're working with are. Keep in contact until you are specifically told you're being passed over for this position... and EVEN THEN, send an email monthly if they have job listings you're appropriate for. "Hey, I noticed you threw up a new listing - wondered if that would be a better fit than the previous position? I've been updating my portfolio too, if that made folks reticent previously." ... I also very nearly got glossed over because when I chatted with them, I inadvertently made it clear that LEGO didn't seem as cool as Jumpgate. Big mistake. Also, LEGO was the right choice, considering that I would have lost my job ages ago on the Jumpgate team. Shalinor fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Oct 26, 2011 |
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Oct 26, 2011 19:50
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And after a couple weeks of no response, it's probably time to move on. Attend game industry events and seek out those guys who interviewed you over the phone and be sure to thank them in person again. It'll make them remember you, if there's ever a next time.
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Oct 26, 2011 19:58
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Irish Taxi Driver posted:Lotta kids here today from Tribeca Flashpoint. I got put on the spot to talk about how I got here and any advice I could give them. And a bunch just got passed over for me to answer some more questions! It was pretty fun and they were all cool guys, showed them what I was working on and what might be next. Really informal and down to earth, not afraid to ask about my background and such.
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Oct 26, 2011 20:06
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M4rk posted:And after a couple weeks of no response, it's probably time to move on. I thought that too, about the couple weeks thing, but I had a contact at Riot that I asked a couple times with no response, knowing that he's a busy guy I didn't take it personally, I just sent another one in 2 weeks.. After 2 1/2 months from the time I submitted my application, I got my interview. Apparently they appreciate persistence, it shows that you're driven.. (I was even told this)
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Oct 26, 2011 20:33
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What was this hilarious Black Eagle title that I apparently was signed off for? I never get to see the fun stuff. 
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Oct 26, 2011 20:40
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If I like you after a first phone screen, I'll probably just tell you that we want to bring you in. If I'm on the fence or leaning towards no, I'll say that you'll hear something in a few days after discussing it with the team. I might send you a test to sway me one way or the other. If it's a definite no, I'll tell you as much on the phone. In all cases, I'll give you my direct email (up until now, you've been going through HR exclusively), and tell you to mail me with any questions or concerns. It goes the same way when you come in for an on-site. Though the negotiations and getting an offer letter together and all those things can take a long rear end time, depending on where we are in the quarter, what headcount looks like, etc. The goal from my end is to ensure your interview with us is courteous and smooth, to the point where even if we end up passing on you that you're impressed enough with us to want to work with us in the future, tell your friends about it, and so on. It doesn't always go this way though - things come up, red-tape comes up, people get busy, one person on the team has a strong objection, and so on. But it really should! The limbo is the worst.
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Oct 26, 2011 23:09
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devilmouse posted:If I like you after a first phone screen, I'll probably just tell you that we want to bring you in. If I'm on the fence or leaning towards no, I'll say that you'll hear something in a few days after discussing it with the team. I might send you a test to sway me one way or the other. If it's a definite no, I'll tell you as much on the phone. In all cases, I'll give you my direct email (up until now, you've been going through HR exclusively), and tell you to mail me with any questions or concerns. Yeah, I guess not getting a flat out no should make me feel at least a little better. I know when I interviewed people for positions I would always tell people if they weren't going to make the cut right then and there. I'd hope more people dp the same. This is a Community position so there's no real portfolio or tests that can be given. It's all in personality and drive... I was noticeably nervous about the interview and I know it showed on the phone, but I would assume they kinda expect that. The limbo is KILLING me though
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Oct 26, 2011 23:12
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So I guess I'm not the only one who finds it a little off-putting that the most prolific posters and advice-givers in this thread don't actually work in game development. Broader and more diverse perspectives are valuable but it can wear a little thin at times.
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Oct 27, 2011 01:25
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DancingMachine posted:So I guess I'm not the only one who finds it a little off-putting that the most prolific posters and advice-givers in this thread don't actually work in game development. Who else doesn't make videogames aside from Book Eagle? I thought we were all cool kids living the dream. I'm a cool kid
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Oct 27, 2011 01:30
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Sigma-X posted:Who else doesn't make videogames aside from Book Eagle? I thought we were all cool kids living the dream.
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Oct 27, 2011 01:55
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Sigma-X posted:Who else doesn't make videogames aside from Book Eagle? I thought we were all cool kids living the dream. Eh, it's probably not productive to start drawing bright lines between people who are "in" and "out". But I think it would be useful for folks to think for a moment before they post about whether they should be posting with the voice of authority (i.e. I directly do thing x and am qualified to judge or advise on topic y) or the voice of "my $.02".
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Oct 27, 2011 01:57
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Sigma-X posted:Who else doesn't make videogames aside from Book Eagle? I thought we were all cool kids living the dream.  But I have worked at Game Recruiter and Curse. I'm not sure if that's "in" or out but I definitely feel "in" with the amount of liaising I do with studios and publishers now, especially Korean-based ones.
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Oct 27, 2011 04:50
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Blast, my secret is out. I admit it. I just work at Gamestop. I don't even sell the games, I just clean the employee toilets and wipe down the demo units. Sometimes, when no one is looking, I play the demo units, even 
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Oct 27, 2011 05:05
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Shalinor posted:Blast, my secret is out. I admit it. I just work at Gamestop. I don't even sell the games, I just clean the employee toilets and wipe down the demo units. Sometimes, when no one is looking, I play the demo units, even And you run the game competition thread just so you can bring the entries in to Gamestop and tell everyone how "You are writing new codes almost every week!" We're all so proud of you Shalinor.
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Oct 27, 2011 05:14
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If you're going to be in the San Diego area on December 13, San Diego Filmmakers will be hosting an panel discussion about voice acting and production issues across video games, television, and features. Lani Minella and Dino Andrade will be among the panelists. The event hasn't been announced yet, so a third panelist is forthcoming. San Diego Filmmakers also has its anniversary celebration on November 8, if you're interested in mingling with filmmakers, developers-turned-filmmakers, festival directors, and others. There is likely to be a celebrity speaker or two. [Disclosure: I'm an advisor to the board of directors at San Diego Filmmakers.]
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Oct 27, 2011 05:36
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Full disclosure: I'm currently straddling the line between in and out. Finishing up my degree(s) while working full time for Disney for game art internship number 2.
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Oct 27, 2011 07:37
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I'm a sysadmin in a game company who wishes he was a game designer, it's ok.
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Oct 27, 2011 07:59
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DancingMachine posted:So I guess I'm not the only one who finds it a little off-putting that the most prolific posters and advice-givers in this thread don't actually work in game development. Yeah, well, it's busy on the inside. I just got home, myself...
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Oct 27, 2011 08:05
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Shalinor posted:EDIT: VV Wait, you're interviewing for somewhere else already? Job not working out, or just moving up in the world? Going into work every day is so exciting right now because we're a pretty rockin' duo making some great stuff. Plus he's starting to get used to me saying "Not done! Needs more!" Sometimes it feels lovely at the time to insist that something just doesn't cut it yet, but when the resultant final product simply speaks for itself it feels worth it. This probably has the highest production values of any game I've ever worked on and it's nice to be leading it. Just wish our partners weren't on the other side of the world. Time zones are a bitch.
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Oct 27, 2011 08:20
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Akuma posted:Aliginge is mine, goddamnit, no one else can have him!  Akuma posted:Going into work every day is so exciting right now because we're a pretty rockin' duo making some great stuff. Plus he's starting to get used to me saying "Not done! Needs more!" Sometimes it feels lovely at the time to insist that something just doesn't cut it yet, but when the resultant final product simply speaks for itself it feels worth it. On the contrary you're getting used to working with an artist (who isn't on the other side of the world.)An honest second perspective is always useful though, artistic or not. Staring at art for several hours at a time means I always lose perspective and then you go back to it a day later and go woahwhattheshit did I do that? GeeCee fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Oct 27, 2011 |
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Oct 27, 2011 08:31
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