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NovemberMike posted:Chances are that your opponent isn't going to be some master who is really going to test your preparation in each of 20 different areas and is instead going to be some retard that gasses out in three minutes and opens himself up to whatever you want to do. Cardio is probably the best thing for you at the amateur level. Is there any rec for bjj related cardio? I have my first tournie coming up.
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Oct 28, 2011 19:04
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origami posted:Is there any rec for bjj related cardio? I have my first tournie coming up. IMO do HIIT. It tends to have larger VO2 Max gains than anything else I've seen and that's what is going to be important in BJJ.
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Oct 28, 2011 19:33
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NovemberMike posted:
This is what I said already he ignored me, I'll give a breakdown of how the ideal amateur fight goes: You are a decent wrestler with a little sub defense and positioning, you are in good shape and have good cardio. Your opponent is, 99 times out of 100, a scrawny BJJ blue/purple belt with mediocre muay thai and a laughable double leg. You take him down immediately , he isn't good enough to threaten with subs off his back. Eventually he gets tired or doesnt have the heart to continue, and you get a lame looking TKO when the guy rolls over and the ref stops it super early because youre both inexperienced amateurs Every time i've cornered , coached etc an amateur fight this is about as well as you can hope it goes when youre a beginner. When guys get it in their head that their first ever competition is gonna be an epic brawl or vicious KO thats when they start flailing around like nervous idiots and get really embarrassed when they watch the video later
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Oct 28, 2011 19:43
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Sunny Side Up fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Oct 28, 2011 20:00
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NovemberMike posted:Cardio is probably the best thing for you at the amateur level. This is pure gospel truth right here.
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Oct 28, 2011 20:25
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Sunny Side Up posted:Didn't ignore anyone, just asked a new question about technique differences. I've been and will continue to focus hardcore on aerobic/anaerobic capacity and endurance hardcore. I really appreciate the advice, though, thanks for not ignoring me! Sorry for being fuckin rude as hell, I just dont want any goons to get hurt in a cage fight. It really is true that cardio is the killer in amateur fights, because there's a huge adrenaline dump and you cant relax and most guys dont have the skills to finish each other so it gets really bad really fast. Everyone laughs at the fat heavyweights gassing in the UFC but most amateurs dont even have one good round of gas in them when theyre actually in the cage
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Oct 28, 2011 20:28
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seems kinda dumb to advise this guy on his build-a-fighter quest before he walks into a gym. if he can't find a proper mma gym, he shouldn't be taking mma fights anyway.
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Oct 28, 2011 20:47
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ya, I agree. The vast majority of people who start combat sports, quit. Train for a year and then start thinking about an actual fight. EDIT: oh missed the six year thing, crap well sperg away. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Oct 28, 2011 |
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Oct 28, 2011 20:52
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Paul Pot posted:seems kinda dumb to advise this guy on his build-a-fighter quest before he walks into a gym. if he can't find a proper mma gym, he shouldn't be taking mma fights anyway. Well he said he had 6 years of BJJ/karate/boxing or something and then had to stop for a while, so I figured he at least slightly knew what he's doing in general and just wanted to sperg about the exact details
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Oct 28, 2011 21:21
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Sunny Side Up fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Oct 28, 2011 21:23
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Paul Pot posted:seems kinda dumb to advise this guy on his build-a-fighter quest before he walks into a gym. if he can't find a proper mma gym, he shouldn't be taking mma fights anyway. He said 6 years of prior experience which takes him beyond most part timers and you can certainly compete at the amateur level without training at a dedicated MMA gym. All you really need is training in stand up and the ground game and some people who are willing to spar with you using MMA rules. I'm assuming he doesn't want to quit his day job to go pro or anything and this is going to be on the side... james earl pwns posted:It really is true that cardio is the killer in amateur fights, because there's a huge adrenaline dump and you cant relax and most guys dont have the skills to finish each other so it gets really bad really fast. Everyone laughs at the fat heavyweights gassing in the UFC but most amateurs dont even have one good round of gas in them when theyre actually in the cage I remember a quote from George Foreman where he talked about the difference between fighting when he was young and when he was older. The main difference was that when he was young he had a ton of energy but would use it up bouncing around because he was nervous. When he was older he was in worse shape but actually had more energy in the late rounds because he was less nervous and more relaxed. NovemberMike fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Oct 28, 2011 |
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Oct 28, 2011 21:34
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NovemberMike posted:He said 6 years of prior experience which takes him beyond most part timers and you can certainly compete at the amateur level without training at a dedicated MMA gym. All you really need is training in stand up and the ground game and some people who are willing to spar with you using MMA rules. I'm assuming he doesn't want to quit his day job to go pro or anything and this is going to be on the side... He also said he's been out of training for 3 1/2 years and doesn't have a gym, yet. Not trying to hate, but I don't think it's a good idea to say "uuh yeah, I'll fight in a year" when there are this many question marks. He's been out of training for too long to intelligently gauge where he stands. The best place to answer those questions is in a good MMA gym. He hasn't said anything about researching suitable gyms in the area, just something about perhaps training boxing and BJJ because those seem like the two most effective styles (which is terribly wrong). Sure, you can have amateur fights without having an MMA gym or even a coach who knows WTF is going on in the cage. We got guys at my gym that ask for fights even though they can barely put a combination together in sparring and go binge drinking on weekends. They get beat up 90% of the time, show up in practice less and less before finally disappearing. Seems stupid to me but I guess people do combat sports with different motives and who am I to judge?
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Oct 28, 2011 22:06
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So, like I've said before I'm injured but should still be able to compete in 2 weeks. I'd like opinions on my exercise plan for the next 2 weeks : I'll do technical drills at judo until then since I probably won't be able to do anything else/don't want to risk injuring myself. I'm thinking of doing HIIT and/or Tabata everyday until the competition (may be 1 day off per week and only light cardio for like 2 days before the comp), is this stupid? Is there a better way to boost my conditioning? (like today I did about 15 minutes of jump rope and then TABATAed some jump squats. I'll do this, sprints, sit jumps, side steps, bla bla bla things using my legs that make me tired fast. I'll also try to cut 5 pounds by November 13 so I can get into the 73kg division. Would it be better to switch some of the HIIT/Tabata for longer runs in order to help with the weight cut? KingColliwog fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Oct 28, 2011 |
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Oct 28, 2011 22:13
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I wouldn't feel comfortable doing HIIT more than every other day. If you can do it more often, you aren't going hard enough. As for the weight loss, 5 lbs is doable with a mild diuretic and a little bit of sweating before hand. If you want to lose it legitimately, you're looking at a deficit of ~17000 calories. Keep in mind though that your standing weight includes the food you've eaten, any water in your kidneys, any waste you haven't shitted out and any excess water. Your weight on a scale can go up or down 4-5 lbs pretty easily. IIRC +-2-3% weight change throughout the day is pretty standard.
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Oct 28, 2011 22:43
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Guilty posted:The reason why boxers usually do well in Muay Thai is because Thai fighters have a tendency to drop guard, and the traditional thai block is basically a death sentence when looking at upper cuts, z.B. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQvvVowW2HA&feature=youtu.be Its certainly an interesting topic though and inversely, the kickboxers at my gym who attended the boxing training felt like fish out of water (that had been hit with a hammer). Its hard to switch to using only movement to keep your opponent away instead of just front kicking them.
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Oct 28, 2011 23:00
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Nierbo posted:I was assuming that they would have the same proficiency in their respective sport, so that the thai guy wouldn't 'drop his hands' just as the boxing guy wouldn't. MT has this ward technique where you just float your hands in front of you. It is effective for the relatively poor punches in old-school MT, and it helps set the distance for your kicks. But it's super bad for uppercuts and body shots if you get get inside, which a boxer should be able to. That said, a boxer who has never sparred with kicks before is not gonna be able to time his movement to account for them. A classic MT fighter will gladly eat a solid combo to start his leg kick mid-attack. A good boxing stance is less squared off and presents an easier lead leg target for kicks. If the boxer comes in real close, the MT guy could switch it up to a knee to the body. kimbo305 fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Oct 28, 2011 |
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Oct 28, 2011 23:52
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NovemberMike posted:I wouldn't feel comfortable doing HIIT more than every other day. If you can do it more often, you aren't going hard enough. Thanks for your input. I usually do HIIT/tabata only once a week so I really don't know how well I recover from them. Will probably go for HIIT or TABATA and some swimming/jogging/relaxed skipping in alternance so I don't burn myself. Yeah, putting it in numbers make it seem less realistic that I could lose it in a "legitimate" way. The good news is I have trouble keeping my weight up to what it is right now. Just by doing nothing special I'd probably lose something like 2 pounds before the comp. If I eat clean, don't force myself to eat all the time and up the cardio... Add the stress poo poo I'll take the morning of the comp and with a little effort I think I might get there. I'd prefer fighting against guys who have 10 pounds on me than fighting people my weight and under if it means feeling like poo poo though, so I'm kind of scared about the whole mild diuretic/sweating thing. Let's say I'm down to 162 pounds the day before the competition. Fights begin at 11h the next day (they weight us in the hours before that, but I can't know exactly nor can I know at which time I'll fight exactly). Considering that 93kg is 160,6 pounds, how would you go about losing the last pound or two? If I need to lose more than that at the last minute I'll just fight in the 73 to 80kg division.
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Oct 28, 2011 23:53
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I wouldn't try to lose a lot of weight by water, but you can safely lose a couple percent of your body weight in water without a problem. Do you know how long the weigh in is from the matches? EDIT: with an hour or two to rehydrate you can chew gum and spit into a bottle for the last pound or two. After you weigh in drink a bottle of water and it should be absorbed into your body in the amount of time you have. Really, 5 lbs isn't that extreme. I remember in wrestling we'd have people dropping 10+ lbs and still doing fine. NovemberMike fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Oct 29, 2011 |
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Oct 29, 2011 00:12
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KingColliwog posted:So, like I've said before I'm injured but should still be able to compete in 2 weeks. Re: Conditioning Check out Joel Jamieson stuff on conditioning, the guy is a wiz. The more I learn about exercise physiology the more I realize he is just about the best guy out there for combat sport conditioning. Check out an article he wrote on different types of intervals: http://www.8weeksout.com/2011/09/28/never-gas-out-mma-interval-training/ One of the biggest points he tries to get across is that energy system conditioning as far more complicated than most coaches treat it and they end up not producing the best results. HIIT isn't the be all and end all for conditioning. The adaptations you get from long slow aerobic work are as important as the adaptations you get from high intensity work. It is important that you include both in your conditioning. As for "Tabata" work, the real protocol for a Tabata is only for a cycle ergometer at 170% of VO2 max, two or three times a week. There is also a day for long slow aerobic work included once a week. That is how Tabata got results, not just be randomly smashing dudes with high intensity work. Also he got the results in his study by training untrained people. It is easy to improve VO2 max untrained population just like it is easy to improve their strength. Try 4 sets of 4 minutes on @ 90% of max heart rate, 4 minutes active rest. A group of swedes (I think) got pro soccer players to improve their VO2 max with that protocol twice weekly. Just try that once a week at first along with some long slow cardio work a couple times a week.
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Oct 29, 2011 08:46
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Nierbo posted:I was assuming that they would have the same proficiency in their respective sport, so that the thai guy wouldn't 'drop his hands' just as the boxing guy wouldn't. Watch the video to the end. That thai block is usually really good for traditional muay thai, but holy jesus does it loving suck for boxing. Also a lot of thai fighters drop their guard anyways, and don't usually shoulder block like a boxer does. Thai mobility is really really poo poo compared to boxing
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Oct 29, 2011 12:36
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If only there was some competition to see which martial art is the best, some way of mixing martial arts. (It's wrestling)
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Oct 29, 2011 12:45
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Guilty posted:Watch the video to the end. That thai block is usually really good for traditional muay thai, but holy jesus does it loving suck for boxing. That particular block does suck, but it's not the only one MT fighters might use. Further, that video was of a pro Thai boxer with strengths in punching. That's not immediate evidence that a pure boxer can easily convert to being able to handle himself in a MT rules bout.
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Oct 29, 2011 12:54
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DAN THE BEAST SEVERN seminar in my gym in an hour! Gonna ask him how to grow a proper stache
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Oct 29, 2011 13:52
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Call him Mr. Frye
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Oct 29, 2011 14:02
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Forgive me for not reading nearly 80 pages of thread and only scanning back through the last 5-6 pages, but a lot of the chatter seems to be about MMA/MT/BJJ - I was wondering if anyone could voice their opinion on Wing Chun Kungfu? It's something I've been interested in and I was wondering what the venerable goons of the A/T thread had to say on it!
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Oct 29, 2011 15:06
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It's kind of like what iridology is to medicine.
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Oct 29, 2011 15:13
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Well, not quite that bad. It's got a big, cultlike following, and it'll take you five or six years to get good enough at fighting to beat a kid who's done six months of boxing. It's fun and it's probably decent exercise, but it's an extremely inefficient way to learn to fight if that's what interests you.
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Oct 29, 2011 15:15
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Lord Twisted posted:Forgive me for not reading nearly 80 pages of thread and only scanning back through the last 5-6 pages, but a lot of the chatter seems to be about MMA/MT/BJJ - I was wondering if anyone could voice their opinion on Wing Chun Kungfu? It's something I've been interested in and I was wondering what the venerable goons of the A/T thread had to say on it! If you go back a bit further, someone has a pretty pro WC stance. Kumo Jr? Some of the concepts make sense and can give you tactics that will work in various striking rulesets. Like if your opponent has loose sloppy punches, you can take the center with your punches and basically create a wedge to his head with your straight punches, maintaining your forward momentum while forcing him to give up his balance. But that's stuff you can apply even under the framework of other styles. Compared to the limb contact work you do in WC (trapping range stuff), you'll develop different kind of clinch sensitivities from MT or judo or BJJ, but they work, and are generally trained in a more alive setting.
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Oct 29, 2011 15:34
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Lord Twisted posted:Forgive me for not reading nearly 80 pages of thread and only scanning back through the last 5-6 pages, but a lot of the chatter seems to be about MMA/MT/BJJ - I was wondering if anyone could voice their opinion on Wing Chun Kungfu? It's something I've been interested in and I was wondering what the venerable goons of the A/T thread had to say on it! Don't waste your time, seriously. George Rouncewell fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Oct 29, 2011 |
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Oct 29, 2011 15:44
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Lord Twisted posted:Forgive me for not reading nearly 80 pages of thread and only scanning back through the last 5-6 pages, but a lot of the chatter seems to be about MMA/MT/BJJ - I was wondering if anyone could voice their opinion on Wing Chun Kungfu? It's something I've been interested in and I was wondering what the venerable goons of the A/T thread had to say on it! What are you looking for in a martial arts? Why do you want to do Wing Chun? I think that's important. If you want to learn to fight effectively, wing chun might not be the best art possible. If you're training for fun/get some exercise/meet people/whatever then it's quite different and wing chun might be what you're looking for.
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Oct 29, 2011 16:39
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Nope, the best martial art for fun and meeting people is capoeira
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Oct 29, 2011 16:48
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NovemberMike posted:I wouldn't try to lose a lot of weight by water, but you can safely lose a couple percent of your body weight in water without a problem. Do you know how long the weigh in is from the matches? EDIT: with an hour or two to rehydrate you can chew gum and spit into a bottle for the last pound or two. After you weigh in drink a bottle of water and it should be absorbed into your body in the amount of time you have. Thanks for the precision. I'm going to do my best to make the weight! Lt. Shiny-sides posted:Wow that's even better than what I expected posting about this here. I think I'll follow his plan and may be add a couple of slow runs/relaxed skipping in the mix. Thanks a lot for answering with an in depth message. niethan posted:Nope, the best martial art for fun and meeting people is capoeira I would have to agree with you on that point. There's a capoeira class I want to attend just before judo but I don't have enough time. If I'm ever single again I'll join a capoeira club instantly.
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Oct 29, 2011 16:56
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Wing chun? It's fun but don't expect it to be the end-it-all it's sometimes marketed as... Or even work *errhmm*. We had a "gym competition" today, I didn't get a fight but cornered four so at least something. We had three other people who didn't get an opponent, two boxers, a flyweight and the only Savate HW (me). Didn't have time to train but I was looking forward to getting my rear end kicked anyway and had all the gear with me, oh well next time then.
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Oct 29, 2011 17:04
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kimbo305 posted:If you go back a bit further, someone has a pretty pro WC stance. Kumo Jr? Thanks for the input - I've been doing it for just over a year and enjoying it a lot, but the University I do it at doesn't really have any other MAs other than Muay Thai which have quality teaching, and I went to MT and it was heavily focused on the sport aspects (which is, of course, fair enough - they had a superb workout regimen, but I felt it was too heavily ritualised around a point-scoring spar). Decided it wasn't for me when I was told off for winding someone (not maliciously, I might add!), whereas in WC we get told off for not making the techniques realistic! Illegal Username posted:The chun encompasses pretty much everything you can get wrong with martial arts. Less of a useful input... I'm just trying to get a bit of perspective from more experienced goons, but would rather know why X or Y is considered less useful or practical than Z!
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Oct 29, 2011 17:44
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WC gets a bad name because it's generally considered to be bad boxing. IIRC Bruce Lee was big on this because he started with WC and switched over to boxing, but WC just has worse punches, worse guard and worse footwork. There is probably some good stuff to come out of it but it's generally considered to be worse than the alternative for hurting people, not getting hurt or moving out of the way. The basic issue with WC and a lot of other TMAs is that they spend a lot less time on sparring and general "alive" training which tends to dilute their effectiveness. Ideal training involves trying to do what you want on a target that isn't making it easy for you. If your school does that then it's probably decent.
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Oct 29, 2011 18:38
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Lord Twisted posted:Thanks for the input - I've been doing it for just over a year and enjoying it a lot, but the University I do it at doesn't really have any other MAs other than Muay Thai which have quality teaching, and I went to MT and it was heavily focused on the sport aspects (which is, of course, fair enough - they had a superb workout regimen, but I felt it was too heavily ritualised around a point-scoring spar). quote:Decided it wasn't for me when I was told off for winding someone Winding someone, like making them exhausted? quote:whereas in WC we get told off for not making the techniques realistic!
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Oct 29, 2011 18:54
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Wing Chun gets a lot of poo poo, and a good portion of that is deserved in the sense that there's lots of terrible WC out there. Part of the problem is that there's really no legitimate sport version of it. Competitive WC is full of silly rules that are meant to get to the heart of what the art is but end up missing the point entirely. This means people end up comparing it to boxing or kickboxing or grappling in the context of those sports. It's definitely not as good as boxing for boxing, not as good as MT for MT, not as good for wrestling as wrestling - but this should go without saying. What I think WC done right does have is the potential to address each of those things in a coherent and fascinating way while also at least attempting to cover non-sport self defense type stuff as well. Often WC seems to be viewed primarily as a striking art, and when you train it that way it ends up more or less lame stiff boxing. As I'm taught, the emphasis isn't so much on landing punches, but on controlling a person's structure/balance upon making contact and preventing them from regaining it. The ultimate ideal end is less about knocking people out or throwing them on their head and more about control and neutralization. It's not easy by any means. That said, if one can get there, I think hitting a person or tossing or tripping them is the relatively easy part. But it's hard to test, hard to provide evidence over the Internet. Boxing-style sparring doesn't apply very easily because gloves would be a massive hindrance. There's chi sao, which eventually uses strikes to the chest, but it's a tricky thing to understand without feeling it, and I've yet to find a video of anyone else doing it the way my teachers do. Generally it's much more static and striking based, with a lot of guys even doing it with their feet planted in place facing each other straight on, or maybe taking a straight step forward and back now and then. As I know it it's a beautiful fluid three dimensional thing with unlimited movement - front/back, side to side, up and down vertically, 360 degrees of rotation, and whatever else. You can use it to find openings to strike, or to trap and tangle up the opponents arms and pull them into a strike, but it's just as much about tossing the opponent off their feet. I could talk about Wing Chun all day, but long story short it's probably the most misunderstood martial art there is. It would be tricky to apply to any popular combat sport (mma would probably be best actually, but would take a lot of crosstraining), but I don't consider that a failing. It takes a long time to do right, and finding a good school might be very difficult. At it's best though I think it's unique and amazing and potentially extremely effective. When I say extremely effective self defense comes to mind as the first utility, but the more practical uses for me have been improvement of balance, fitness, and coordination (don't need to hold the railing on the subway so much any more), a much easier more graceful time lifting/carrying things (whether a massive speaker cabinet or a glass of water) stemming from a new understanding of how my body works, and an ability to hold my ground and feel heavier than I am when some jerk tries and fails to push between me and my friends at a crowded concert. If that jerk were to take offense and wing a hook at my head I think it would be quite useful there too, but fortunately none of that thus far.
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Oct 29, 2011 19:14
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Lord Twisted posted:Less of a useful input... I'm just trying to get a bit of perspective from more experienced goons, but would rather know why X or Y is considered less useful or practical than Z! The focus on "Street techniques" like eye poking and groin kicking gives it's practitioners a false sense of ability without ever actually teaching them to fight. The footwork is linear and unflexible, mostly owing to the retarded fighting stance. Also there is zero grappling involved so the ultimate result of wing chun training is a sloppy kickboxer. There is one bright side though: WC is the one of the leading contributors of hilarious martial art videos. tl;dr: Wing chun bad punch theory. Go train boxing.
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Oct 29, 2011 19:40
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Decades posted:but it's a tricky thing to understand without feeling it, and I've yet to find a video of anyone else doing it the way my teachers do. Generally it's much more static and striking based, with a lot of guys even doing it with their feet planted in place facing each other straight on, or maybe taking a straight step forward and back now and then. As I know it it's a beautiful fluid three dimensional thing with unlimited movement - front/back, side to side, up and down vertically, 360 degrees of rotation, and whatever else. You can use it to find openings to strike, or to trap and tangle up the opponents arms and pull them into a strike, but it's just as much about tossing the opponent off their feet. Help contribute to the MA community by getting some video.
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Oct 29, 2011 20:01
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Illegal Username posted:without ever testing those skills under pressure Nope Illegal Username posted:focus on "Street techniques" like eye poking and groin kicking They're there and could be useful in hypothetical situations but are far from the main idea of things and not at all emphasized in my experience. Saying wing chun is about eye poking and groin kicking is like saying bjj is about training to choke a guy out with your shin. Illegal Username posted:The footwork is linear and unflexible, mostly owing to the retarded fighting stance. Maybe. But I think the stances are more about engraining habits into beginners and grow more loose and natural with time. Experienced guy push inexperienced guys around easily enough without the weird looking inward stance. Illegal Username posted:Also there is zero grappling involved so the ultimate result of wing chun training is a sloppy kickboxer. I think you could interpret wing chun as grappling, even though there's punching too. There's usually no groundwork, but you can work takedowns attempts into the more live drills. There's definitely more grappling than boxing and at least arguably more than muay thai. Illegal Username posted:There is one bright side though: WC is the one of the leading contributors of hilarious martial art videos. This part is true. This is just in my experience though and I'm sure schools like what you're describing exist, and that sucks. kimbo305 posted:Help contribute to the MA community by getting some video. Maybe some day Decades fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Oct 29, 2011 |
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Oct 29, 2011 20:07
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