|
Gabriel Pope posted:There may be some additional retroactive significance to the Vriska vs. Jack tangent later, but that significance is not necessarily going to be a beta Vriska flying out of space to deliver pirate justice. Indeed. It's by no means a sure thing, but it's also not unlikely either. I mean, that's pretty much how Aradia got there. She just flew manually.
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 01:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 18:38 |
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:Indeed. It's by no means a sure thing, but it's also not unlikely either. This is true, but Aradia was both a) already there because she flew through Jack and b) able to map the place out because she's a hero of time. The hero of light doesn't necessarily have that same power, and would have to rely on being fast enough to make it while the beacon of light is still there.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 01:44
|
|
|
Mr. Pumroy posted:That's cool and all but man, that keyboard in Dance of Thorns. I don't own RB3 and I get that plastic toy instruments are not at all representative of the real thing but do they often shoehorn instruments in an awkward way like that? Yeah, it happens occasionally in the regular DLC released by the developers too.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 01:45
|
|
|
Gabriel Pope posted:beta Vriska flying out of space to deliver pirate justice. I'm a little wary of the idea as a whole, because if Theoretical Beta Vriska didn't win her fight, then there would be a goddamn Beta Jack Noir coming in for another round of stabs.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 01:46
|
|
|
I didn't say it was likely, just that it was plausible, there was still a good fifteen, twenty minutes between the start of Vriska vs Noir and the Critical Moment. It's a plausible out, doesn't mean Hussie is going to take it, just that "Vriska showing up while Karkat is agonizing over how to explain to John that his Troll Alien Friendmentor got backstabbed" is completely within his style, and requires no real rear end-pulling to justify it either. With that said, Beta Jack Noir wasn't going to be looking for the flare, and Hussie Did say that leaving immediately after seeing it was the only way to take that "Straight Line". Alectai fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Oct 29, 2011 |
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 01:47
|
|
|
King of Solomon posted:This is true, but Aradia was both a) already there because she flew through Jack and b) able to map the place out because she's a hero of time. The hero of light doesn't necessarily have that same power, and would have to rely on being fast enough to make it while the beacon of light is still there. Yep. As Hussie mentioned, that window of opportunity is the only thing that makes this theory possible.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 01:47
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:Yep. As Hussie mentioned, that window of opportunity is the only thing that makes this theory possible. If you're going by that perspective, then the Trolls are doomed to fail, because they're just riding an asteroid in, propelled by one of their friends (Who was already dying pretty loving fast from the strain, and would in no way manage to push the silly thing far enough and fast enough unless the route itself was pretty short as long as you had the beacon)
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 01:51
|
|
|
King of Solomon posted:
I'm pretty sure that's right, there are plenty of Daves running around in the Alpha timeline that exist in stable timeloops where there's no choices being made. I remember Terezi explaining that making a choice and defying things is when dead Daves start piling up. We know that anything from a Beta timeline is inherently doomed, such as were Beta felt Dave was killed by Jack, or where future Dave becomes Davesprite because sprites will only prototype with Doomed/Dead/Inanimate things, or at least prefer to. Time Travel doesn't always make you a beta and therefore kill you, neither do choices, but where the opposite result of a choice loops back into the alpha timeline it's doomed to death as a beta.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 01:52
|
|
|
Alectai posted:If you're going by that perspective, then the Trolls are doomed to fail, because they're just riding an asteroid in, propelled by one of their friends (Who was already dying pretty loving fast from the strain, and would in no way manage to push the silly thing far enough and fast enough unless the route itself was pretty short as long as you had the beacon) Also, Rose and Dave travelled about 60 billion light years between the detonation of the green sun and their emergence from its surface. Let us just assume that ridiculous scale-defying speeds are a thing in Homestuck.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 01:53
|
|
|
Alectai posted:If you're going by that perspective, then the Trolls are doomed to fail, because they're just riding an asteroid in, propelled by one of their friends (Who was already dying pretty loving fast from the strain, and would in no way manage to push the silly thing far enough and fast enough unless the route itself was pretty short as long as you had the beacon) I'd disagree because I'm pretty sure Sollux is able to project the asteroid at exactly the speed of plot. The window will be sufficient for his purposes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 01:54
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:I'd disagree because I'm pretty sure Sollux is able to project the asteroid at exactly the speed of plot. The window will be sufficient for his purposes. No, Jade's using the window. Sollux is just going there directly. Don't you pay attention??? 
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 01:56
|
|
|
Well there you go. If Beta Vriska turns out to be important later on, then she'll show up at precisely the point plot demands, and there's enough groundwork that it won't be completely out of left field.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 01:56
|
|
|
Alectai posted:If you're going by that perspective, then the Trolls are doomed to fail, because they're just riding an asteroid in, propelled by one of their friends (Who was already dying pretty loving fast from the strain, and would in no way manage to push the silly thing far enough and fast enough unless the route itself was pretty short as long as you had the beacon) I think he put in Sollux's ancestor to do give us the opposite impression, at least. With his powers the Helmsman is able to propel the battleship condesce at several thousand times light speed, far enough that traveling at light speed, it takes the Condesce 600+ years to get back to Alternia after one journey. e:syntax is difficult. VVV Me too. 
Memphis Raines fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Oct 29, 2011 |
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 01:57
|
|
|
I'm just going to blindly hope Vriska's story isn't over because I really wanted to see alpha john and alpha vriska meet.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 01:59
|
|
|
True Evil Bob posted:I'm just going to blindly hope Vriska's story isn't over because I really wanted to see alpha john and alpha vriska meet. I don't think that isn't happening without either a jailbreak or John dying a heroic death (because let's be honest here, there's no way he's dying a just death.) Alpha Vriska is dead.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 02:01
|
|
|
King of Solomon posted:Actually... It's not clear how beta timelines operate, but I really, really doubt that every decision causes a timeline split. Suppose Dave is standing on LOHAC somewhere about to go back in time. Somewhere across the incipisphere, Rose decides whether to blow up a castle or not; this decision creates a beta timeline. But Dave certainly doesn't know about it, and the Daves in both the alpha and the beta timeline go back in time, landing them both in the alpha timeline. So we have a new doomed Dave on our hands. Then think about in how often decisions are being made by someone somewhere - if each decision causes a timeline split, the number of beta timelines grows exponentially. And even if only a tiny fraction of the Daves from those timelines make it back to the alpha, that would still give a pile of doomed Daves large enough to fill up the incipisphere many times over. But we've only seen three doomed Daves. So there has to be something that severely limits the number of beta timelines that actually exist and are capable of affecting the alpha timeline. And that's not even getting into whether Vriska's fight with Jack occurs in an honest beta timeline, or if Terezi's Seer powers work by some other means. And also whether beta timelines are physically located in the same paradox space, or whether a beta-Vriska would show up at a beta-green sun just to find a pissed-off beta-Aradia waiting around for an explanation of why the rest of her friends are dead.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 02:03
|
|
|
Man I really wish Hussie would have give some exposition about how time travel works inside sburb; I can think of things like Steins;gate where it was explained solidly, using the idea of the alpha and beta timelines running parallel, and offshoot timelines being tiny fibres that make up the overall rope of the alpha timeline, unless they manage to affect things that the line is more than 1% different overall, by which they cross the divergence percentage barrier and end up in the Beta timeline, which ultimately has a different outcome. That was simple. Homestuck makes me want to take my brain out with an icepick.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 02:11
|
|
|
Alectai posted:If you're going by that perspective, then the Trolls are doomed to fail, because they're just riding an asteroid in, propelled by one of their friends (Who was already dying pretty loving fast from the strain, and would in no way manage to push the silly thing far enough and fast enough unless the route itself was pretty short as long as you had the beacon) Space does not mean the same thing in the Furthest Ring as it does elsewhere though - when traveling, it really means finding precisely the right spot in the Furthest Ring so you are at the right place and the right time since space and time are linked in weird ways there. That's what the "map" was apparently really for; pinpointing that position so the Green Sun would not only be in the right place but would exist at the correct point in time. And that's why the light from the Green Sun is able to act as a beacon. We already know the meteor makes it, anyway, even if poor Sollux doesn't.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 02:16
|
|
|
All the extrapolation about non-Time players coming into contact with the alpha timeline comes from beta-John in the dreambubbles, but remember that we still don't know how he died, except it was on his planet. Maybe he didn't actually die inside that timeline??? Could part of The Choice have actually made him do a similar jump to the alpha timeline like Dave and Aradia can??? Who knows.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 02:17
|
|
|
Memphis Raines posted:Man I really wish Hussie would have give some exposition about how time travel works inside sburb; I can think of things like Steins;gate where it was explained solidly, using the idea of the alpha and beta timelines running parallel, and offshoot timelines being tiny fibres that make up the overall rope of the alpha timeline, unless they manage to affect things that the line is more than 1% different overall, by which they cross the divergence percentage barrier and end up in the Beta timeline, which ultimately has a different outcome. Keeping it vague helps the story do what it does. Laying out clear and unambiguous ground rules out the gate would probably have made a lot of the current craziness impossible as people howl about how time travel shouldn't work that way in Homestuck. I'm sure that people still do that, but at least like this they can't cite any example outside of their own personal idea of how the story should be told.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 02:20
|
|
|
Supercar Gautier posted:Also, Rose and Dave travelled about 60 billion light years between the detonation of the green sun and their emergence from its surface. Let us just assume that ridiculous scale-defying speeds are a thing in Homestuck. It may have the mass of two universes, but there isn't anything to indicate the Green Sun is larger than an ordinary star. It might even be the size of an SBURB session planet, given how close Aradia seems to be. It's probably just really, really dense. Regardless of the Green Sun's size (and where on its timeline Aradia is waiting), Dave and Rose are still pretty awesome for getting out of it. edit: Also yes, Rock Band 3 does map unusual instrument parts to the keyboard in songs where that instrument would be important or fun to play. It works for me, since it opens the door for songs that otherwise simply couldn't have been implemented for guitar/bass/drums/vocals alone. Thundarr fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Oct 29, 2011 |
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 02:41
|
|
|
Been a while since my last post! But after that (amazing) flash, there's something that's been bothering me that I dont think anyone has brought up yet. The song "Black" opens with "Make her a member of the Midnight Crew". They could have just as easily used the line "I'm a member of the Midnight Crew" from the same song, which would have made more sense given the context, so it seemed very likely this was a bit of foreshadowing. I had always speculated that "her" referred to Snowman, what with the blackrom between her and Spades. Baring death having a revolving door (which is entirely possible), this avenue seems to be closed. Was I perhaps reading to much into that one line? Or might there possibly be another candidate for a female member of the Midnight Crew that I haven't considered?
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 02:41
|
|
|
Jawat posted:Been a while since my last post! But after that (amazing) flash, there's something that's been bothering me that I dont think anyone has brought up yet. You're reading too much into it. Hussie confirmed as much when they made that flash, way back when.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 02:51
|
|
|
Jawat posted:Been a while since my last post! But after that (amazing) flash, there's something that's been bothering me that I dont think anyone has brought up yet. Considering that the Troll universe has been destroyed irrevocably by Slick, I doubt anyone's going to be joining the midnight crew any time soon.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 02:52
|
|
|
Supercar Gautier posted:Also, Rose and Dave travelled about 60 billion light years between the detonation of the green sun and their emergence from its surface. Let us just assume that ridiculous scale-defying speeds are a thing in Homestuck. Time and Space dont follow any rules out there, thats why Dave and Rose needed a map. Being able to see the light from the meteor quickly means that traveling straight at it will get the trolls there quickly, since time and space in that straight line are such that the light was able to get there very very quickly itself. So they dont necessarily have to be going fast, time and space are basically bending to their benefit.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 03:01
|
|
|
Even with a map, Hussie said in his tumblr that Dave and Rose were basically warping at random through time as they went. Which both explains how they showed up before the creation of the Green Sun, and why they made the journey so "quickly".
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 03:09
|
|
|
For reference, I was talking about their journey from the centre of the green sun to its surface. If the thing is twice the size of our universe and spherical, then it has a radius of 60 billion light years. All I meant was that immense distances in the story are rather easily dismissed by various plot elements.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 03:20
|
|
|
Supercar Gautier posted:For reference, I was talking about their journey from the centre of the green sun to its surface. If the thing is twice the size of our universe and spherical, then it has a radius of 60 billion light years. All I meant was that immense distances in the story are rather easily dismissed by various plot elements. They were being reincarnated as gods so maybe they used time shenanigans to get there. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 03:24
|
|
|
YggiDee posted:I'm a little wary of the idea as a whole, because if Theoretical Beta Vriska didn't win her fight, then there would be a goddamn Beta Jack Noir coming in for another round of stabs. Nah. If Jack beats Vriska, he just goes on to killing Bilious Slick, PM shows up after him, they're at the same point they are in the EoA. Actually, it occurs to me that even if he's in a beta timeline, Jack HAS to use Red Miles on Bilious Slick at some point, since he already went to Earth and saw it being used, which made him escape to the troll universe. Or maybe he doesn't have to because that's the entire point of a beta timeline. Or maybe my head hurts now. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 03:27
|
|
|
Supercar Gautier posted:For reference, I was talking about their journey from the centre of the green sun to its surface. If the thing is twice the size of our universe and spherical, then it has a radius of 60 billion light years. All I meant was that immense distances in the story are rather easily dismissed by various plot elements. Thundarr mentioned earlier that it's twice the mass of a universe, so perhaps the green sun is simply dense. But personally, I think Rose and Dave were being continuously pushed outward due to the fact that it was formed in a giant cosmic explosion.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 03:44
|
|
|
President Ark posted:You're reading too much into it. Hussie confirmed as much when they made that flash, way back when. Ah fair enough. I didn't start following his blogs or any Homestuck threads until about a year ago (well after that page), that's why I missed it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 03:51
|
|
|
VJeff posted:Nah. If Jack beats Vriska, he just goes on to killing Bilious Slick, PM shows up after him, they're at the same point they are in the EoA. He doesn't, Beta timelines can have all the paradoxes in the world and it doesn't matter. The kids were never created in the beta timeline, for instance.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 04:05
|
|
|
When it comes to MSPA physics, I always defer to this page from Problem Sleuth.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 04:22
|
|
King of Solomon posted:I don't think that isn't happening without either a jailbreak or John dying a heroic death (because let's be honest here, there's no way he's dying a just death.) One of the dead Solluxes was able to follow Aradia to the green sun and is present when Rose/Dave show up.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 04:34
|
|
|
True Evil Bob posted:One of the dead Solluxes was able to follow Aradia to the green sun and is present when Rose/Dave show up. He's only half-dead, though (or at least as far as we can tell he is) - a weird and unusual condition. We don't know for sure how the mechanics of that work yet. I am really doubtful that Vriska will be making a comeback of any sort. She's dead. It's sad. But ya gotta move on. If she did somehow come back, it would sorta cheapen the impact of her dying in the first place. But with this story, sometimes the weirdest poo poo winds up becoming reality, so really who knows!
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 04:36
|
|
|
Jawat posted:Ah fair enough. I didn't start following his blogs or any Homestuck threads until about a year ago (well after that page), that's why I missed it. Just to beat already-answered speculation to death, it was my own choice to include "make her a member of the midnight crew" in the song with no input from Andrew. It sounded better than "I'm a member of the midnight crew" because it's the end of a phrase and not the beginning of one.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 04:37
|
|
|
True Evil Bob posted:One of the dead Solluxes was able to follow Aradia to the green sun and is present when Rose/Dave show up. That's Sollux. He's always had a bizarre approach to death and dreamselves, which is probably connected to his Mage of Doom title. Vriska is out. She's not coming back. Which is good, because she had a really solid arc with a definite conclusion.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 04:37
|
|
|
Memphis Raines posted:Man I really wish Hussie would have give some exposition about how time travel works inside sburb; I can think of things like Steins;gate where it was explained solidly, using the idea of the alpha and beta timelines running parallel, and offshoot timelines being tiny fibres that make up the overall rope of the alpha timeline, unless they manage to affect things that the line is more than 1% different overall, by which they cross the divergence percentage barrier and end up in the Beta timeline, which ultimately has a different outcome. Time travel in homestuck is very straightforward. It's simply the kind of time travel you get in a single timeline predestined universe. You can travel in time freely, but you can't change anything because all your actions including time travelling actions already exist on the timeline. What's so hard about that? It's pretty much time travel as it's presented by all the actual physicists who think it could be possible. The issue of changing things never comes up, because there's no free will in this comic (at least, no free will of the kind that would be problematic - compatibilist free will is emphasised to the extent it's dealt with at all). The only difficult thing is the split timelines, which don't really have anything to do with time travel, and which have also been explained fairly extensively by now, with three major examples (Johns first death, Daves death by Terezi, and Vriskas end), each of which had a good deal of exposition. What exactly confuses you (:genuine interest:)? Note that "choices" resulting in split timelines are just as predestined as everything else. Fagtastic fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Oct 29, 2011 |
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 04:37
|
|
|
True Evil Bob posted:One of the dead Solluxes was able to follow Aradia to the green sun and is present when Rose/Dave show up. Not technically a jailbreak, but close enough.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 04:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 18:38 |
|
|
Mr. D Bewildering posted:Thundarr mentioned earlier that it's twice the mass of a universe, so perhaps the green sun is simply dense.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2011 04:39
|
|
