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I've been pretending to be a real law student for about two and a half year now.
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Oct 31, 2011 21:38
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evilweasel posted:The basic problem that a lot of firms seem to have is they've got no real managers. Nobody's a professional manager: not a single person in the firm has their job because they're good at managing people. They may have more managerial responsibilities because they're better at it than other partners, but they're there because of their legal skills and their legal skills are what got them their job, and the managing is a thing they do. I mean, I could be wring and that's actually a factor in making partner but it doesn't seem to be. You should look up some podcasts and other materials from David H Maister, who is a consultant to professional firms on exactly this type of thing. He hits on exactly those points. I found it worth a listen even aside from the specific applicability to law. (He has a bunch of free podcasts you can download, and unlike most of such things, they aren't just a plea to download the stuff that isn't free - they are actually interesting.)
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Oct 31, 2011 22:45
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SlyFrog posted:You should look up some podcasts and other materials from David H Maister, who is a consultant to professional firms on exactly this type of thing. He hits on exactly those points. I found it worth a listen even aside from the specific applicability to law. (He has a bunch of free podcasts you can download, and unlike most of such things, they aren't just a plea to download the stuff that isn't free - they are actually interesting.) We had to read a bunch of his books in some legal careers course we had to take. Can't say I learned very much from them.
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Oct 31, 2011 23:21
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So can someone elucidate what, exactly, the lack of full-time "professional" management in the traditional law firm structure is preventing these firms from doing or accomplishing? Please lay out which parties exactly, either inside or outside these firms, is expected to benefit here. Because I'm honestly not seeing how layering on an entire extra class of employees (who, unlike paralegals and secretaries for example, don't actually directly contribute to the output of legal services) for law firms will improve anyone's fortunes despite their aptitude at the nebulous skillset of "businessman stuff." I also don't really have the time or patience to have David H. Maister explain it to me over my ipod headphones during my next 70-80 bowel movements.
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Oct 31, 2011 23:26
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Erdricks posted:Anyone here know anyone at WilmerHale? A good friend of mine's girlfriend is an associate in their Palo Alto office. From his descriptions, it doesn't sound any better or worse than most other Biglaw gigs - crazy hours, exorbitant salary, some of her coworkers/bosses are cool, most are dickbags. The only thing that stuck out for me from his description is that they have an "up or out" system which I'm not sure is standard or not - either you get promoted every 3 years (associate -> senior associate -> of counsel -> partner, or whatever their progression is) or you're looking for a new job; that may be standard for most large firms, though.
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Oct 31, 2011 23:38
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MoFauxHawk posted:Tenleytown has a Chipotle so that's not bad. Ooh also that burger/shake place.
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Nov 1, 2011 00:15
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10-8 posted:Nobody's complaining about Chipotle because they're not authentic. Check like the past 7 threads. Also let's go to Chipotle or something in Chicago ^_<^
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Nov 1, 2011 00:39
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NJ Deac posted:A good friend of mine's girlfriend is an associate in their Palo Alto office. From his descriptions, it doesn't sound any better or worse than most other Biglaw gigs - crazy hours, exorbitant salary, some of her coworkers/bosses are cool, most are dickbags. That was standard; it's mixed now whether any given firm is a true up and out (make partner or leave - e.g. Cravath, classically, and I believe still) or whether they allow some alternative to partner.
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Nov 1, 2011 01:46
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MoFauxHawk posted:Check like the past 7 threads. Also let's go to Chipotle or something in Chicago ^_<^ You go to Hot Doug's for duck fat fries and Portillo's for Italian beef.  I'll go to places lawyers are scared to go to and get a nice $2.50 lunch of tacos.
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Nov 1, 2011 02:03
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MoFauxHawk posted:Check like the past 7 threads. Also let's go to Chipotle or something in Chicago ^_<^ CaptainScraps posted:You go to Hot Doug's for duck fat fries and Portillo's for Italian beef.
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Nov 1, 2011 02:54
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10-8 posted:
How does it feel to be so wrong?
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Nov 1, 2011 02:57
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Kase Im Licht posted:WilmerHale let its temps have Internet Access, but A&P buys its temps lunch (at the Tenleytown office anyway). drat it, I need inside dish. Meeting with one of the DC partners tomorrow afternoon, and then on Monday I'm in New York to meet with a couple others.
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Nov 1, 2011 03:00
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MoFauxHawk posted:Check like the past 7 threads. Also let's go to Chipotle or something in Chicago ^_<^ say the word
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Nov 1, 2011 03:26
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Direwolf posted:say the word Considering where you're trying to work, maybe you'd rather go to the Panda Express at Michigan and Grand. -_- Actually the Coast Burger in that mall's food court is really good, I got food from both places today.
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Nov 1, 2011 04:08
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MaximumBob posted:How does it feel to be so wrong? I second this emotion
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Nov 1, 2011 11:32
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Just walked in on an associate crying. I guess I'm a little surprised it took this long to happen.
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Nov 1, 2011 14:03
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HiddenReplaced posted:Just walked in on an associate crying. Nice! At 9:00 in the morning no less -- getting those tears out early. For you lurkers contemplating law school, I'm jobless and in the top 5% of my class at a fairly good school. My current decision is whether I should finish school and pursue business or just drop out entirely; I'm meeting with the Dean tomorrow.
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Nov 1, 2011 14:51
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Omerta posted:Nice! At 9:00 in the morning no less -- getting those tears out early. Still jobless too. I want to kill everyone.
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Nov 1, 2011 16:13
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I don't know, I'm pretty set on eventually getting a law degree since all the super sweet patent prosecution jobs need one. Examining might be alright for a bit but I know it will become tedious pretty quickly. Invalidation seems pretty fun as well - more interactive than prosecution. Litigation on the other hand seems like something I'd rather stay away from though. In school I always thought I'd be building robots after getting my engineering degree. Instead I fall in love with patent prosecution!
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Nov 1, 2011 16:36
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Zo posted:I don't know, I'm pretty set on eventually getting a law degree since all the super sweet patent prosecution jobs need one. Examining might be alright for a bit but I know it will become tedious pretty quickly.
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Nov 1, 2011 16:51
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gvibes posted:What do you mean by "invalidation"? Patent invalidation. Only seen it from the defensive side though.
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Nov 1, 2011 17:03
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Zo posted:Patent invalidation. Only seen it from the defensive side though.
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Nov 1, 2011 17:46
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gvibes posted:But in what context? Apparently not litigation? Are you talking about re-exam? Ah I see. My office nomenclature (not in the US) separates litigation and invalidation, since the latter can be done through a PTO appeal process, which can eventually be escalated to the courts. "Litigation" is reserved for infringement. I am talking about litigation invalidation in your context though.
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Nov 1, 2011 18:05
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prussian advisor posted:So can someone elucidate what, exactly, the lack of full-time "professional" management in the traditional law firm structure is preventing these firms from doing or accomplishing? Please lay out which parties exactly, either inside or outside these firms, is expected to benefit here. Because I'm honestly not seeing how layering on an entire extra class of employees (who, unlike paralegals and secretaries for example, don't actually directly contribute to the output of legal services) for law firms will improve anyone's fortunes despite their aptitude at the nebulous skillset of "businessman stuff." I also don't really have the time or patience to have David H. Maister explain it to me over my ipod headphones during my next 70-80 bowel movements. It sounds like you pretty solidly made up your mind already, but if you've ever been part of a badly run organization, or had a terrible boss, you should be aware of the value of effective management skills to an organization.
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Nov 1, 2011 19:08
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I owe you guys so much for keeping me out of law school! Thank you Law School Megathread, you made a big and legit difference in my life. Now if I could get all these law schools to stop emailing me...
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Nov 1, 2011 19:44
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Zo posted:Ah I see. My office nomenclature (not in the US) separates litigation and invalidation, since the latter can be done through a PTO appeal process, which can eventually be escalated to the courts. "Litigation" is reserved for infringement.
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Nov 1, 2011 20:51
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Omerta posted:Nice! At 9:00 in the morning no less -- getting those tears out early. 3L at T30(edit:or maybe we're T35, whatever), top 50%. No offer from the firm I've worked at for two summers. Pretty sure I have no real options for a job in the legal field. Going to apply to Epic for a project manager job that newly minted undergrads usually do BEFORE applying to law/MBA/grad school. Although I hate and regret going to law school already, I'm sure those feelings will only grow if I take a job that makes my degree irrelevant (but with law school debt to remind me!). Yojimbo Sancho fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Nov 1, 2011 |
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Nov 1, 2011 21:40
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Yojimbo Sancho posted:3L at T30(edit:or maybe we're T35, whatever), top 50%. No offer from the firm I've worked at for two summers. Pretty sure I have no real options for a job in the legal field. Going to apply to Epic for a project manager job that newly minted undergrads usually do BEFORE applying to law/MBA/grad school. Although I hate and regret going to law school already, I'm sure those feelings will only grow if I take a job that makes my degree irrelevant (but with law school debt to remind me!). The better choice is not going to law school, but if you're a 2L who sucks at grades, it is an option. DA and PD work is most common, but state and county agencies may do some civil stuff, though mostly you'll do criminal. DA or PD work in a decent office can be a good stepping stone into whatever you want after 3 years -- dozens of jury trials do a great job of masking a TTT or poo poo GPA. That said, don't do PD work if you're not passionate about it. And don't do DA work because it is evil. You can't set yourself up for this when you're out of law school really. You need to do it in law school. There ae a very limited number of positions and you need to actually look like it isn't a backup plan by doing stuff in law school. This isn't to say that this is a great option. There are very few jobs and lots of people. The employers may not be great at detecting the best talent but they can sniff out bullshitters who see this as a backup. But is the only decent option if you don't get a path out of a 2l summer. Expect to work for free for a while, but at least long term you'll have more dignity than doc review or shitlaw. Also, it is better than civil work, hands down. This wasn't a backup for me.
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Nov 1, 2011 22:31
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nm posted:For anyone in this position, before you're a 3L Great advice for non 3Ls/grads, wish it applied more to me. I work at a small-law crim /PI/Family law shop of 6 attorneys. They actually had an opening for 50k/year but the other clerk graduated before me and took it. Apparently they would "definitely hire me" if an office opened up. Hah.
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Nov 1, 2011 22:38
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Omerta posted:I didn't apply anywhere in NY--not a fan of the Northeast. Part of the problem is that all the places I want to work are relatively small markets; all the firms I got callbacks with except 1 were looking to hire 1-3 people. Good luck with your callbacks! Omerta posted:Nice! At 9:00 in the morning no less -- getting those tears out early. You're a 2L aren't you? Did you ever end up applying to any of the bigger markets? I definitely had an NYC big law interview the Friday before Halloween my 2L year and ended up accepting their offer shortly after so even big law spots aren't necessarily full at this point if they see a good enough applicant. Public interest jobs and smaller law firms generally don't hire this early on either so just because OCI is over doesn't mean you can't learn from your mistakes in OCI and shoot for smaller firms in both your ideal markets and other larger markets with more law firms. Just because you end up in a state doesn't mean you're stuck there forever. Taking the bar over again is a pain but it's really not the end of the world. 5% at a good school may still get you in somewhere. I would at least keep waiting it out until the next round of tuition is due and try your hardest to find a job, assuming you still actually want to be a lawyer.
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Nov 1, 2011 22:41
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Omerta posted:Nice! At 9:00 in the morning no less -- getting those tears out early. The tears usually start just after 10 in the morning for most people here. That said, I'm in California, so maybe people just get to work a little bit later than in other parts of the country. I usually prefer to cry myself to sleep, though.
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Nov 1, 2011 22:42
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HooKars posted:assuming you still actually want to be a lawyer. How does one actually know if they want to be a lawyer. I grapple with this often.
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Nov 1, 2011 22:46
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HooKars posted:Did you ever end up applying to any of the bigger markets? I definitely had an NYC big law interview the Friday before Halloween my 2L year and ended up accepting their offer shortly after so even big law spots aren't necessarily full at this point if they see a good enough applicant. Or, you might just be really horrible at interviewing. I'm fairly certain that is what happened to me. Like, I'm not king of the awkward goons, but my god interviews are stupid as hell and being forced to talk about the time I managed to overcome an interpersonal conflict in the workplace or whatever the hell is stupid as gently caress. I'm not one to shy away from jumping through hoops (see: attending law school), but I'll be damned if I'll ever get the hang of responding to these artificial conversation starters. Maybe you're just bad, too. Or maybe not, but always worth realistically evaluating your interview skills. Yojimbo Sancho posted:How does one actually know if they want to be a lawyer. I grapple with this often.
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Nov 1, 2011 22:54
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evilweasel posted:It sounds like you pretty solidly made up your mind already, but if you've ever been part of a badly run organization, or had a terrible boss, you should be aware of the value of effective management skills to an organization. No, I've experienced both of those things, and they're both plainly bad. What I don't see is how adding MBA-holding grads who would be full time firm "management" would lower the incidence of either in law firms, or add anything to the organizations, individually or to the sector of the legal industry taken as a whole. What are the unique skills or abilities that the attorneys themselves are not capable of producing? I'm sure my original post came across as flippant, but if there's a concrete solution to a concrete problem to be found here, I'm genuinely interested to know what it is. prussian advisor fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Nov 1, 2011 |
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Nov 1, 2011 23:03
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Green Crayons posted:My guess is that if you don't have any feeling whatsoever that you want to be a lawyer now that you're a 3L with several summers worth of experience, then you probably don't want to be a lawyer. Sometimes I really enjoy doing my criminal defense work and feel like I'm sort of doing "good" work for people, so there are times I do see myself perhaps enjoying lawyering. Of course my firm gets paid for it so it's not as good/pure as nm's PD work.
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Nov 1, 2011 23:05
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HooKars posted:You're a 2L aren't you? Someone at a T1 has a good chance there if they can demonstrate that they want to live there. This shouldn't be the sole focus, but they can be a good plan. Also, smaller markets are short of good talent, so a good attorney who networks well can really stand out. Managing partner, judge, etc are much easier to reach there. Also, at least in the valley, pay isn't that much less than coastal firms, but cost of living is nothing. You can pay off loans quick. I'm kind of a fan of the valley for civil (if you must do civil). Much of their work is ag and ag isn't going down, so with the exception fo firms with too much real estate practice, these firms are still doing fine. They're still hiring all their non-gently caress up 2L summers. You have to cast a wide net though as they're each only hiring 3-6 people each summer (as they actually plan on hiring them) and locals get preference as they tend to be less likely to flee to san francisco. Of course, you have to be in Fresno. Note however, that you can move out of the valley as a lateral as long as you pick the right firm and don't suck. You have to start this in 1L year though.
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Nov 1, 2011 23:15
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prussian advisor posted:I also don't really have the time or patience to have David H. Maister explain it to me over my ipod headphones during my next 70-80 bowel movements. Maister doesn't really advocate that law firms hire some fleet of MBAs who do nothing to contribute to the bottom line. He suggests that law firms generally promote the most successful attorneys (i.e. the biggest rainmakers) to management positions (or that those rainmakers essentially stake out those positions through alpha-male ego demands). The solution to that does not have to be (nor do I recall him advocating) hiring MBAs; it can either be promoting attorneys who aren't idiots with respect to management (with its attendant difficulties of getting attorney buy-in), teaching the idiots who do manage how to do it better, etc.
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Nov 1, 2011 23:24
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So uh the OP makes a pretty damning case for staying the hell away from a law degree in the US, but would the same advice apply to the UK? I have a family member considering it as their degree and I'm not sure what approach to take to help him. To be clear, I don't necessarily mean talking him out of it, but I'm going to at least give a bit of lecturing on how he better be willing to work his rear end off.
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Nov 1, 2011 23:48
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SlyFrog posted:Maister doesn't really advocate that law firms hire some fleet of MBAs who do nothing to contribute to the bottom line. He suggests that law firms generally promote the most successful attorneys (i.e. the biggest rainmakers) to management positions (or that those rainmakers essentially stake out those positions through alpha-male ego demands). The solution to that does not have to be (nor do I recall him advocating) hiring MBAs; it can either be promoting attorneys who aren't idiots with respect to management (with its attendant difficulties of getting attorney buy-in), teaching the idiots who do manage how to do it better, etc. All of this sounds pretty reasonable to me. But here's my question--what is it that industry experts feel is lacking in the current crop of law firm leadership that they need to be trained out of? What's the actual, tangible problem that people are working out solutions for?
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Nov 2, 2011 00:03
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prussian advisor posted:All of this sounds pretty reasonable to me. But here's my question--what is it that industry experts feel is lacking in the current crop of law firm leadership that they need to be trained out of? What's the actual, tangible problem that people are working out solutions for? I cant claim industry expertise, but the folwing is a representative list from my experience and anecdotal evidence from friends: problems with knowledge management; misallocation of human capital (chronic under- or over-staffing of matters, depending on the particular neuroses of the manager in question); opaque and inconsistent criteria for employee evaluation; expense control; tighter regulation and evaluation of productive vs non productive partners; and general technological incompetence resulting from older attorneys falsely assuming that they know anything about software. Getting dedicated managers doesn't necessarily fix any of these problems, but it does mean that the people who are thinking about them aren't also splitting their attention with active matters. As mentioned, you have the star players managing the franchise, which is why most law firms resemble nothing so much as the Isiah Thomas Knicks.
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Nov 2, 2011 01:38
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