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Appachai posted:Maybe they don't want to be women. Seems like a simple answer to me. Who would?
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Nov 6, 2011 21:23
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Is there any evidence that most or all of the Newkama are actually pre-injection(?) transgender and not homosexual transvestites?
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Nov 6, 2011 21:35
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Cerebral Bore posted:This would imply that the crossdressers who look like ugly men actually want to look like ugly men All things considered, half of them could originally have been women. Cerebral Bore posted:Or maybe the message is that it's OK for burly men to dress in dresses and harass homophobes for shits and giggles? I've seen this pulled off epicly, but really, the more I think about it, you need some acknowledgement that that's what the characters are intentionally doing. Otherwise, like this episode, you end up sending a different message entirely. Semi-related, but did anyone get reminded of this news story about cross-dressing cage fighters? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8296190.stm 
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Nov 6, 2011 21:42
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Appachai posted:Maybe they don't want to be women. Seems like a simple answer to me. Appachai posted:Is there any evidence that most or all of the Newkama are actually pre-injection(?) transgender and not homosexual transvestites? I mean, it's possible this was the intent, but what I'm wondering is why Oda would choose to portray these characters this way. mushroom_spore posted:All things considered, half of them could originally have been women. But if you're a woman who wants to become a man and you do, why would you wear womens' clothing afterwards? On the other hand, even the best do descend to the level of transvestite jokes sometimes. I suppose one will just have to take the good with the occasional bad.
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Nov 6, 2011 22:40
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Appachai posted:Maybe they don't want to be women. Seems like a simple answer to me. Considering their leader can change people's genders I'd say that's a given.
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Nov 6, 2011 22:57
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Cerebral Bore posted:But if you're a woman who wants to become a man and you do, why would you wear womens' clothing afterwards? Why does it have to be so black and white?
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Nov 6, 2011 22:57
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Cerebral Bore posted:But if you're a woman who wants to become a man and you do, why would you wear womens' clothing afterwards?
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Nov 6, 2011 22:59
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Cerebral Bore posted:But if you're a woman who wants to become a man and you do, why would you wear womens' clothing afterwards? To feel pretty? 
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Nov 6, 2011 23:48
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Cerebral Bore posted:I mean, it's possible this was the intent, but what I'm wondering is why Oda would choose to portray these characters this way.
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Nov 7, 2011 00:11
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The only time I was sort of disappointed in regards to anything okama related was when Ivankov fought Sanji legitimately in the anime. In the manga he got wrecked off screen in like two panels. The anime had Ivankov use a technique that kicked the poo poo out of Kuma on Sanji. That should have annihilated him.
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Nov 7, 2011 05:18
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See, I didn't have a huge issue with it because those particular transsexuals were legitimately hideous. It's the same class of joke as Lola hitting on people, or Zoro forgetting Kokoro exists because she's too ugly. It's not "All transsexuals are freaks", it's "Holy poo poo these transsexuals are ugly." At least it seemed that way to me, this manga is generally very good on gender issues.  That said, Oda's stance on traditional values of beauty and physical appearance is pretty glaringly obvious, as the standard rule in the One Piece world is "no uggos".
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Nov 7, 2011 05:29
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Cuchulain posted:One Piece world is "no uggos". In every world. In every world
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Nov 7, 2011 06:21
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Cuchulain posted:It's not "All transsexuals are freaks", it's "Holy poo poo these transsexuals are ugly."
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Nov 7, 2011 09:10
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Eiba posted:Not to play Devil's Advocate, but you're talking about a shonen manga in Japan that actually gives characters like Mr. 2, Ivankov, and Inazuma personality without pigeon-holing them into a stereotypically comical/degrading corner like the rest of the transvestites shown. I think the fact that Mr. 2, Ivankov, and Inazuma exist at all as they do in a highly popular, mainstream manga and anime series in Japan - let alone a Western country - is remarkably progressive on the whole. The offensive stereotypes of transvestites really suck, but the alternative of no role models at all is far too common otherwise. This is at least a step in the right direction. Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Nov 7, 2011 |
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Nov 7, 2011 15:34
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Endorph posted:Yes, these are one of like two groups of transsexuals we see. And the others are literally transsexuals via magic. So you're mad that all the Transsexuals in the show are either pretty or ugly. You want there to be well rounded, "normal" transsexuals in the show. Name four well rounded, normal characters in the entire show. Edit: Also, those hideous ones are from Ivankov's country. They likely are transsexual via magic. They're still ugly. Cuchulain fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Nov 8, 2011 |
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Nov 8, 2011 00:55
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Uhm... where did you get the idea that I was mad because they were either pretty or ugly? I'm mad because they're literally made out to be one of the most disgusting things in the entire show.
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Nov 8, 2011 02:50
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Endorph posted:Uhm... where did you get the idea that I was mad because they were either pretty or ugly? I'm mad because they're literally made out to be one of the most disgusting things in the entire show. You have to admit that Sanji feeling like someone was grabbing his heart was funny.
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Nov 8, 2011 03:47
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I found the whole thing to be pretty funny myself. It was just some goofy comedy moment.
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Nov 8, 2011 06:08
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Jimbot posted:I found the whole thing to be pretty funny myself. It was just some goofy comedy moment. So you think transphobia is funny?!
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Nov 8, 2011 06:43
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Jimbot posted:I found the whole thing to be pretty funny myself. It was just some goofy comedy moment. I mean, dumb crass jokes are one thing, but the phrase "real women" was literally used by a character we are meant to like and identify with. Endorph fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Nov 8, 2011 |
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Nov 8, 2011 06:59
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Endorph posted:It was a goofy comedy moment that was pretty much the trans version of a minstrel show. Well they are technically men dressed as women. So they wouldn't be "real women" unless they got those hormone injections from Iva. Why are we arguing about this stuff again
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Nov 8, 2011 08:04
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Endorph posted:I mean, dumb crass jokes are one thing, but the phrase "real women" was literally used by a character we are meant to like and identify with. A character who has 3 motivations in life: Cooking, All-Blue, LADIES.
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Nov 8, 2011 08:25
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Endorph posted:It was a goofy comedy moment that was pretty much the trans version of a minstrel show. They aren't biologically women. They could easily become biologically female with ivankov's hormones. You need to accept their decisions to be men and wear womens' clothing and makeup. Also they eat people, which is very unladylike. Appachai fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Nov 8, 2011 |
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Nov 8, 2011 08:35
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Appachai posted:They aren't biologically women. They could easily become biologically female with ivankov's hormones. You need to accept their decisions to be men and wear womens' clothing and makeup. They don't look the way they do because they want to. They look the way they do to make fun of actual transwomen whose jarring masculine traits make them unappealing as women. OrangeGuy posted:Not to play Devil's Advocate, but you're talking about a shonen manga in Japan that actually gives characters like Mr. 2, Ivankov, and Inazuma personality without pigeon-holing them into a stereotypically comical/degrading corner like the rest of the transvestites shown. And even in that role though they're kind of dehumanized- they're not role models, or relatable characters, they're clowns. Nice friendly clowns, who at the end of the day are reaffirmed as touchingly considerate and human, dispute their differences, but clowns nevertheless. Obviously I don't have that huge a problem with it or I wouldn't have this avatar, but it's not like it's super progressive. And even if it was, being progressive in some ways doesn't make it not terrible in others. This wasn't just a neutral portrayal, it was a bad portrayal. A really bad one. Even in the manga when the joke could be seen more as Sanji's transphobia, it was still all about laughing at transvestites for being scary and different looking. That deserves to be called out for being as lovely as it is. Just because it does something else right, doesn't mean it gets a free pass when it fucks up. And loving up in this respect does not in any way negate what's good about One Piece, or make One Piece as a whole a bad manga. Things have nuance to them, and something can be incredibly lovely in one way, but fantastic in many others, and enjoyable on the balance. I've felt the same way about Oda's female character designs for ages. They're really lovely- actually worse than a lot of other anime and manga, as mind numbing as that concept is. One Piece remains my favorite shounen, and something I dearly love all the same.
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Nov 8, 2011 09:19
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Eiba posted:"Freaky okama with a heart of gold" is actually a fairly common trope from what I've seen of anime/manga. Just look at Tokyo Godfathers. They also featured prominently later on in 20th Century Boys, and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples. I'm not sure I get this complaint. What would you say is wrong with Ivankov, Inazuma or Bon Clay's potrayal that makes them less a character than Kuma, Dadan or any other bit part character? Eiba posted:I've felt the same way about Oda's female character designs for ages. They're really lovely- actually worse than a lot of other anime and manga, as mind numbing as that concept is. One Piece remains my favorite shounen, and something I dearly love all the same. Well, he is getting better. There were lots of weird and fun female characters on Amazon Island at least. Whether that carries over in to the rest of the manga or not is another thing.
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Nov 8, 2011 12:41
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Eiba posted:I've felt the same way about Oda's female character designs for ages. They're really lovely- actually worse than a lot of other anime and manga, as mind numbing as that concept is. One Piece remains my favorite shounen, and something I dearly love all the same. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc0KjmZjuXg I've been thinking that for a while. I really liked Nami's old design better, when I first watched the show, after watching Bleach for year, I was happy to see how they drew Nami. But that didn't last. Robin, too, has been malformed over the years. It's a shame. I think though that they still remain respectable characters with motivations, character, and strength, so I can't complain too much. I think that overall One Piece is still progressive, but without abandoning cliche jokes. Still, I feel like Nami is going to create a Barbie effect for Japan. At least we don't have crying and "Kurosaki-kun" every episode.
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Nov 8, 2011 18:15
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tsob posted:I'm not sure I get this complaint. What would you say is wrong with Ivankov, Inazuma or Bon Clay's potrayal that makes them less a character than Kuma, Dadan or any other bit part character? And the issue was more with the archetype than the specific application in One Piece. See Tokyo Godfathers especially to see what I mean. In that one of the main three characters is an Okama, and she's really nice and awesome and strong... but her defining character trait is still just how weird and crazy she is. I mean, it would be really progressive if they were just people, rather than flamboyantly over the top silly different people. I mean, it's not especially bad. I wasn't complaining about them. I loved that character in Tokyo Godfathers, and I love Bon-chan. They're just plain awesome. They play up the other-ness of these odd characters specifically to make their incredible human qualities, their spectacular compassion, all the more poignant, and I quite enjoy that. I was specifically responding to the notion that that gave One Piece bonus progressive-points or something like that. In terms of being accepting of trans folks... it's not especially. It's not particularly cruel, but it's still other-ing them. Except for Inazuma, who is pretty much exactly what I'm thinking of when I'm thinking of a real progressive portrayal, though that's kind of caught up in the fantasy of gender magically being perfectly fluid, but whatever. They're cool.
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Nov 8, 2011 22:29
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Eiba posted:For one thing, I should be clear- there's nothing wrong with Inazuma at all. They're awesome. Thinking about all this I'm wondering if that's the whole point of Ivankov's kingdom of transvestites all being a bunch of dudes in drag trying to be cool, but Ivankov is the King/Queen. Ivankov clearly doesn't give a poo poo about gender and views it as unneeded but the other members of his clan that weren't in Impel Down were all about "HEY GUYS LOOK WE'RE TOTALLY CHICKS" and putting dresses on dudes and stuff. Ivankov just wanted freedom, that's why he's a revolutionary. That's why those guys can only hope to be him, they just wanted to be weird but Ivankov wanted to change things. Or Oda just wanted to draw a bunch of guys wearing make-up I don't know. Oh also, 
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Nov 9, 2011 06:10
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No episode this week? 
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Nov 13, 2011 03:32
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Shadow0 posted:No episode this week? It's up, my lad: http://onepieceofficial.com/videos.aspx edit: I bet you didn't even look 
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Nov 13, 2011 03:34
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rock2much posted:It's up, my lad: http://onepieceofficial.com/videos.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_One_Piece_episodes#TV_specials Scroll up one tick on that ^ I am glad I am wrong. You, sir, have brought me from the pits of despair to the pinnacles of Elysian pleasure.
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Nov 13, 2011 05:16
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Hold up, have we ever seen the straw hat on Roger before? Did I miss that?
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Nov 13, 2011 07:44
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seigfox posted:Hold up, have we ever seen the straw hat on Roger before? Did I miss that? Nope, it's new to us. It came out of nowhere in the manga too.
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Nov 13, 2011 08:32
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I liked that young Roger was voiced by Ace
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Nov 13, 2011 09:08
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No, actually he was voiced by Jaguar D. Saul, or the same guy who played Future Trunks.
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Nov 13, 2011 10:02
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Kind of boring. I can't imagine these pirates lasting more than a few seconds against the new straw hats
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Nov 13, 2011 10:27
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I love Zoro's comment about already having seen all of it before because he got on the wrong ship. Also I'd hate to imagine what kicked Kuma's rear end that hard.
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Nov 13, 2011 13:59
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Appachai posted:Kind of boring. I can't imagine these pirates lasting more than a few seconds against the new straw hats I think it's fine given that they're fighting underwater, and we haven't seen them wipe a whole crew in a very long time. Also one of these clowns is a logia which should be fun.
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Nov 13, 2011 15:52
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Liar posted:I love Zoro's comment about already having seen all of it before because he got on the wrong ship. Also I'd hate to imagine what kicked Kuma's rear end that hard. I think Kuma was heavily damaged, because he had been fighting for so long without repairs, and not because he fought a particularly strong opponent.
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Nov 13, 2011 16:30
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Appachai posted:Kind of boring. I can't imagine these pirates lasting more than a few seconds against the new straw hats I remember seeing them clash up against each other and look like they were going to board and think - oh, finally a real pirate fight. So I'm excited. Also, I can't imagine them lasting long against the old Straw Hats...
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Nov 13, 2011 17:48
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