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Under the vegetable posted:I'm not saying he's sublime and perfect. Nobody's sublime or perfect. Hussie, however, is obviously at the top of his personal game and the general game of this particular format of storytelling. If you're going to criticize, I guess, at least have a meatier criticism than "I didn't like this because it's long and I got bored." I don't know how "If you think it can be a tale told "better", you're pretty much wrong. On every level, even." is in any way different from calling his storytelling "perfect". Also I think that finding passages uninteresting due to a combination of their length, content, and context (like others said, trolls were new characters that a new reader won't feel particularly attached to, and some of their logs, such as the rap battle between Gamzee and Tavros linked to earlier are not received with equal enthusiasm by everyone) is criticism that lacks meat or is invalid in any way.
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Nov 7, 2011 01:02
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Ha... if you think about it... Doctor Scratch, through his own ploys and mind games... doctored the scratch. :v
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Nov 7, 2011 01:06
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Under the vegetable posted:I'm not saying he's sublime and perfect. Nobody's sublime or perfect. Hussie, however, is obviously at the top of his personal game and the general game of this particular format of storytelling. If you're going to criticize, I guess, at least have a meatier criticism than "I didn't like this because it's long and I got bored." For pop entertainment not-being-entertaining I think is a perfectly valid criticism. Your argument that publicly published work should be protected by some sort spawn invincibility criticism shield, because its coming out in an episodic fashion, I think is bizarre. Just like any episodic form, someone can examine a work's early episodes and review it again when its finished - in addition the early criticism will not become magically invalid. Finally I'm not convinced you can call Hussie the best with certainty in this form; only the most ambitious in terms of labour intensity, and in terms volume and variety of media.I think Evan Dahm the dude from Rice Boy produces tighter and more coherent work and might be reasonably be called better, and I bet theres plenty of other people who are way more widely 'read' than me who can point to any number of online graphic artists who could be called better. Basically I think you're heading towards the deep end at some speed.
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Nov 7, 2011 01:13
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I think often Hussie's ambition exceeds his grasp, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. And besides, I think Homestuck is almost certainly a warm-up for Hussie's future masterworks, rather than being a master work itself. In this, as with Problem Sleuth, he's figuring poo poo out as he goes, constantly evolving and learning. Experimenting with various storytelling methods in ways few other webcomics have ever attempted. Unlike a movie or a novel, a serial work like a narrative comic or television series is liable to have a lot of weird kinks and things that don't work out. For example, I think Hussie may have spent too much time on the weird, hosed up relationship between Vriska and Tavros. Though, I don't know, maybe it pays off later, but now it seems like an unnecessarily long set-up for Vriska's friendship with John. Aaaaaaaanyway, Homestuck has a lot of flaws, but can you point to anything else on the internet with the sheer scope, ambition, and wild experimentation?
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Nov 7, 2011 01:16
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annatar posted:I think Evan Dahm the dude from Rice Boy produces tighter and more coherent work and might be reasonably be called better, Heads up, everyone in this thread should check out Rice Boy. It's great stuff.
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Nov 7, 2011 01:19
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Dolash posted:Now here's a neat little wrinkle: Beta-John. No. Beta John and all the Robo Aradias all died in "our" incipisphere. The other beta trolls and alternates died in beta universes. So they're still in beta dream bubbles in the beta dead end universe. YEP. Also I think the people who complain about certain arcs the most are the ones who forget that this is first and foremost a humor comic, even if it has serious bits and has a story to tell. Going on about pointless "funny" chat logs and character interactions and the like is sort of missing the point when that's kind of the point of the comic. Zorak fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Nov 7, 2011 |
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Nov 7, 2011 01:20
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annatar posted:Finally I'm not convinced you can call Hussie the best with certainty in this form; only the most ambitious in terms of labour intensity, and in terms volume and variety of media.I think Evan Dahm the dude from Rice Boy produces tighter and more coherent work and might be reasonably be called better, and I bet theres plenty of other people who are way more widely 'read' than me who can point to any number of online graphic artists who could be called better. I think he's ambitious in more than just volume and variety. Under the vegetable makes the point that Homestuck is an aggressively experimental work, and I think it's fair to say that we are reading a watershed piece in webcomics history, regardless of Homestuck's objective quality (which is still good!) EDIT: Spatula City posted:I think often Hussie's ambition exceeds his grasp, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. And besides, I think Homestuck is almost certainly a warm-up for Hussie's future masterworks, rather than being a master work itself. In this, as with Problem Sleuth, he's figuring poo poo out as he goes, constantly evolving and learning. Experimenting with various storytelling methods in ways few other webcomics have ever attempted. Unlike a movie or a novel, a serial work like a narrative comic or television series is liable to have a lot of weird kinks and things that don't work out. For example, I think Hussie may have spent too much time on the weird, hosed up relationship between Vriska and Tavros. Though, I don't know, maybe it pays off later, but now it seems like an unnecessarily long set-up for Vriska's friendship with John. Aaaaaaaanyway, Homestuck has a lot of flaws, but can you point to anything else on the internet with the sheer scope, ambition, and wild experimentation? Everyone read this post and then shut up because it says pretty much everything that needs to be said on the subject.
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Nov 7, 2011 01:20
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Under the vegetable posted:You guys who are complaining about the way Hussie's telling the story might not be aware, but this is basically webcomics' Ulysses, and the experimental aspects are a fundamental part of the complete experience. I try to stay away from the fanbase of Homestuck because a majority seem to view it as "just another good comic" to swoon over and write porno about, but jeez, guys, you're reading a historical literary event as it happens. How do you even enjoy this comic without realizing that? You don't know how to tell a story better than Andrew Hussie! If you think it can be a tale told "better", you're pretty much wrong. On every level, even. It's his story, and it's told in a way that is unequivocally his. This poo poo is insanely fantastic and it's a goddamn miracle in itself that something this arcane has acquired the fanbase it has, but the more people like the folks I see arguing keep arguing about what parts are "good" and what parts "aren't" the more I wonder if they even read the loving thing. This post is very good, perhaps even perfect.
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Nov 7, 2011 01:20
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Zorak posted:No. Beta John and all the Robo Aradias all died in "our" incipisphere. The other beta trolls and alternates died in beta universes. So they're still in beta dream bubbles in the beta dead end universe. YEP. Didn't Beta John die in the Beta incipisphere?
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Nov 7, 2011 01:22
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Under the vegetable posted:You guys who are complaining about the way Hussie's telling the story might not be aware, but this is basically webcomics' Ulysses, and the experimental aspects are a fundamental part of the complete experience. I try to stay away from the fanbase of Homestuck because a majority seem to view it as "just another good comic" to swoon over and write porno about, but jeez, guys, you're reading a historical literary event as it happens. How do you even enjoy this comic without realizing that? You don't know how to tell a story better than Andrew Hussie! If you think it can be a tale told "better", you're pretty much wrong. On every level, even. It's his story, and it's told in a way that is unequivocally his. This poo poo is insanely fantastic and it's a goddamn miracle in itself that something this arcane has acquired the fanbase it has, but the more people like the folks I see arguing keep arguing about what parts are "good" and what parts "aren't" the more I wonder if they even read the loving thing. Are you loving seriously comparing a webcomic artist to Nabokov?
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Nov 7, 2011 01:24
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Zorak posted:No. Beta John and all the Robo Aradias all died in "our" incipisphere. The other beta trolls and alternates died in beta universes. So they're still in beta dream bubbles in the beta dead end universe. YEP. While I believe it is very likely that beta-John actually came to the alpha timeline as part of The Choice, it hasn't been shown yet. We will probably get back to that 5 or 6 months down the line when Hussie realizes he is still only a quarter of the way through Act 6.
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Nov 7, 2011 01:27
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YF-23 posted:I don't know how "If you think it can be a tale told "better", you're pretty much wrong. On every level, even." is in any way different from calling his storytelling "perfect". If I wanted to call it perfect I'd have called it perfect. It's not like I compared him to Beckett, gently caress, I'm obviously hyperbolizing (and using the experimental structures of the works I've referenced as points of comparison). I don't think Ulysses is the best book I've ever read, but it's certainly one of the most ambitious in the context of its peers. I personally consider the writers I've name-dropped to be a little bloated myself, but their storytelling is such a personal thing for them, and so meticulously crafted in pursuit of experimental goals, that I feel they're beyond my personal ability to criticize. There were parts of "Ada" that I skipped entirely. I simultaneously could not possibly offer any suggestions to make "Ada" a better book, and could not possibly say I thoroughly enjoyed the experience of reading it. If I were to say "I just got bored by these sections here, therefore I consider them bad writing" I would feel a fool. annatar posted:For pop entertainment not-being-entertaining I think is a perfectly valid criticism. Your argument that publicly published work should be protected by some sort spawn invincibility criticism shield, because its coming out in an episodic fashion, I think is bizarre. Just like any episodic form, someone can examine a work's early episodes and review it again when its finished - in addition the early criticism will not become magically invalid. You're re-framing my argument. What you said is not at all what I said. The existence of early criticism isn't my problem. The shallow content of the criticism is my problem. annatar posted:Finally I'm not convinced you can call Hussie the best with certainty in this form; only the most ambitious in terms of labour intensity, and in terms volume and variety of media.I think Evan Dahm the dude from Rice Boy produces tighter and more coherent work and might be reasonably be called better, and I bet theres plenty of other people who are way more widely 'read' than me who can point to any number of online graphic artists who could be called better. Again, you reframe what I'm saying to form your own argument. I don't think Hussie is anywhere NEAR the best visual artist I've seen. His actual skill when it comes to representing the human form, animating, composing a frame, whatever, is not anywhere near what I would consider "great". He's very skilled at the use of color and collage, but again that's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about the method and the medium of storytelling, and suggesting that he's probably the most ambitious and original author currently experimenting with the format of digital comics. Nowhere did I suggest he was the best graphic artist or had the most coherent or "tight" style of drawing. I'm impressed with his structure more than I am his content.
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Nov 7, 2011 01:28
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Reading Homestuck is actually kind of like reading one of Shakespeare's plays, except instead of powerful and nuanced language and incredibly deep subtext you have to work through in order to figure out what's going on, there's leetspeak and weird plot poo poo you have to dissect. Last 4/13 I actually ran into a guy on the MSPA forums who actually thought Andrew Hussie was a better storyteller than Shakespeare. Now, I understand that Shakespeare might not be for everybody, but I sincerely doubt that, as good as Andrew Hussie is and as much as I love Homestuck and everything about it, anything that happens in Homestuck will be as emotionally powerful as the final act of "King Lear". But then again, maybe in four hundred years the works of Andrew Hussie will be taught in English literature courses, while various crackpots peddle the theories that Homestuck was actually written by Ryan North 
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Nov 7, 2011 01:41
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The idea of a story that starts with a bad potty humor joke being worshiped as classical literature in middle-school classrooms in the far future is... well, poo poo, I don't know how I would feel about that.
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Nov 7, 2011 01:46
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Funnily enough, I also thought about Ulysses when wondering 'If Homestuck was a book, which book would it be?'. Sheerly on the size of the thing though.
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Nov 7, 2011 01:46
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MrBims posted:The idea of a story that starts with a bad potty humor joke being worshiped as classical literature in middle-school classrooms in the far future is... well, poo poo, I don't know how I would feel about that. Given the sheer volume, I could see an entire college-level course dedicated to analyzing Homestuck. It'd be better than some of the stuff that passes for college courses these days.
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Nov 7, 2011 01:51
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I think what seperates Homestuck from other webcomics is Hussie's writing style. It's not literary genius, but his writing is very entertaining and that's what keeps me coming back to HS. But HS does have flaws, like not all the trolls are fleshed out to name one example. Probably the biggest issue is not Hussie's fault though, and that is that the story isn't finished yet. Hussie is essentially releasing a novel page by page, meaning that some events maybe confusing and it's not possible for the reader to just turn to the next page to see what is happening.
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Nov 7, 2011 01:55
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Walliard posted:Given the sheer volume, I could see an entire college-level course dedicated to analyzing Homestuck. It'd be better than some of the stuff that passes for college courses these days. As far-fetched as it sounds, I wouldn't put it past someone trying to do this years in the future (but not many). A lot of English professors are always looking to involve contemporary stuff in their courses. One of the literature classes my university's English program is offering next semester is a Human Values in Literature course devoted entirely to short stories, books, comic books, and movies about zombies (even Evil Dead is listed in the course description).
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Nov 7, 2011 01:58
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jvempire posted:I think what seperates Homestuck from other webcomics is Hussie's writing style. It's not literary genius, but his writing is very entertaining and that's what keeps me coming back to HS. But HS does have flaws, like not all the trolls are fleshed out to name one example. Probably the biggest issue is not Hussie's fault though, and that is that the story isn't finished yet. Hussie is essentially releasing a novel page by page, meaning that some events maybe confusing and it's not possible for the reader to just turn to the next page to see what is happening. I agree that Homestuck has flaws, but uh. That's not one of them. Most of the trolls are minor characters. Not every character needs to be as fleshed out as, say, Vriska.
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Nov 7, 2011 02:01
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Tolth posted:Are you loving seriously comparing a webcomic artist to Nabokov? Got a problem with that? Does the medium not pass for art to you?
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Nov 7, 2011 02:13
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King of Solomon posted:I agree that Homestuck has flaws, but uh. That's not one of them. Most of the trolls are minor characters. Not every character needs to be as fleshed out as, say, Vriska.
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Nov 7, 2011 02:24
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There's not really much to flesh out with Gamzee. He's a clown that likes sopor slime and likes to murder people when he doesn't have it 
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Nov 7, 2011 02:34
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Guys, I just saw a picture of someone cosplaying that security guard who got freaked out by Homestuck cosplayers. I... I think Homestuck has gotten too meta, even for me. I'm going to go lie down.
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Nov 7, 2011 02:35
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He wasn't really freaked out, more disapproving
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Nov 7, 2011 02:42
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Valex posted:There's not really much to flesh out with Gamzee. He's a clown that likes sopor slime and likes to murder people when he doesn't have it I guess it can kind of be a problem though when characters who have really important effects on the story have personalities verging on one-dimensional.
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Nov 7, 2011 02:45
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Valex posted:He wasn't really freaked out, more disapproving He looked more confused really. "What the hell are they doing?"
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Nov 7, 2011 02:46
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Walliard posted:Given the sheer volume, I could see an entire college-level course dedicated to analyzing Homestuck. It'd be better than some of the stuff that passes for college courses these days. Vriska X Tavros: The intricacies of shipping 12 year olds
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Nov 7, 2011 03:02
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Bobulus posted:Guys, I just saw a picture of someone cosplaying that security guard who got freaked out by Homestuck cosplayers. You say this, and you don't post the picture? 
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Nov 7, 2011 03:23
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MrBims posted:The idea of a story that starts with a bad potty humor joke being worshiped as classical literature in middle-school classrooms in the far future is... well, poo poo, I don't know how I would feel about that. To know how you "feel about that", stare intently at the works of Shakespeare. Plagiarized plots, made up words and dick jokes.
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Nov 7, 2011 03:24
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President Ark posted:You say this, and you don't post the picture?  Shut down fandom, we're done.
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Nov 7, 2011 03:27
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Kit Walker posted:Got a problem with that? Does the medium not pass for art to you?
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Nov 7, 2011 03:32
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Gizmotinker posted:To know how you "feel about that", stare intently at the works of Shakespeare. It's not fair to call Shakespeare's plots "plagiarized" because even though he cribbed a lot from old stories, he did a lot of work to make them his own. For example, he took an obscure Italian novella as inspiration for "The Merchant of Venice" and pretty much invented Shylock's entire character and backstory out of whole cloth, and "King Lear" was pieced together from multiple stories--the Glouchester plot and the Lear plot were two completely unrelated stories before Shakespeare appropriated them.  Shakespeare was great at making up words and making puns about genitals, cuckolds, and venereal diseases, though, I'll agree with you there.
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Nov 7, 2011 03:33
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"Bone bulge" and "Moirail" are going to be a thing in the future.
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Nov 7, 2011 03:41
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Wait, can somebody tell me how many levels of irony we're working under here to discuss motherfucking Homestuck being taught as a college course. Do I need to go get some pointy anime shades. Should I be pontificating on the finer points of puppet dong.
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Nov 7, 2011 03:47
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OMFG FURRY posted:Despite the popularity of the term "web comic" in reference to novel-length stories presented in semi-regular updates, web comics are not novels. Which is not to say that comics cannot have the sophistication and depth of a novel, but the best web comics have qualities that separate them from straight prose. This is true. However, it's also true that Homestuck is very, very different from your normal webcomic. So different, in fact, that I'd say it barely qualifies as a webcomic at all and that people might only be referring to it as one because "web-based sequential media" (a much better way of phrasing what Homestuck is without limiting it to things that Homestuck itself is not limited to) is a bit of a mouthful.
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Nov 7, 2011 03:53
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dumb brunette posted:Wait, can somebody tell me how many levels of irony we're working under here to discuss motherfucking Homestuck being taught as a college course. Do I need to go get some pointy anime shades. Should I be pontificating on the finer points of puppet dong. May I remind you that the Divine Comedy was history's most notable instance of Self-Insert Fiction? http://www.cracked.com/article_19084_5-reasons-pop-culture-run-by-fan-fiction.html
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Nov 7, 2011 03:57
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Gizmotinker posted:May I remind you that the Divine Comedy was history's most notable instance of Self-Insert Fiction?
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Nov 7, 2011 04:01
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You can think Homestuck is awesome and worthy of being obsessed with for 3 years, and recognize that it's a giant unedited first draft that wouldn't suffer if someone went through it with a red pen after it's finished.
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Nov 7, 2011 04:13
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Thank god this thread stopped classic author comparison hour at Vladimir Nabokov and James Joyce.
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Nov 7, 2011 04:14
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Omnomnomnivore posted:You can think Homestuck is awesome and worthy of being obsessed with for 3 years, and recognize that it's a giant unedited first draft that wouldn't suffer if someone went through it with a red pen after it's finished. I'm pretty sure Hussie even said something like "This is a giant unedited first draft" in his old formspring.
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Nov 7, 2011 04:24
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