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Strangely, I see it in the opposite way. This late in the game we need more villains - or at least, we need more points of conflict. At first I thought there'd be more mooks, like new felt, that'd let us watch the heroes cut through them with their new powers. I'm pretty sure Hussie wants to avoid a Problem Sleuth Demon Mobster Kingpin scenario where the end of the story is just every character wailing on the final boss with their most powerful attacks. One way to do that is to set some characters against each other for one reason or another, to add complications to the final confrontation. I mean think about it. For all the damage he's done, this evil Cal-faced Hulk isn't really someone we're personally invested into as a villain. He's got a lot of dread and fear built up, but he's not got much of a personal connection to anyone. Turn the heroes on each other though and get us worried about how that'll sort itself out and suddenly personal investment in both sides of the conflict shoots way up. Not to mention that, again, it does give our heroes just plain more to do rather than beating on the final boss. There are other ways to add complications, of course. The reset kids, the reset universe and incipisphere, Jade's new universe, the dream bubbles, the horror terrors... most of those are still pretty vague though, hard to speculate on, and don't quite have the same sense of significance as imagining Dave and John pitted against one another in some tragic battle of the bros. Edit: Or I guess we could have Rose and Jade pitted against one another in a battle of the "Have we met before?" Dolash fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Nov 8, 2011 |
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Nov 8, 2011 15:48
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Dolash posted:I mean think about it. For all the damage he's done, this evil Cal-faced Hulk isn't really someone we're personally invested into as a villain. He's got a lot of dread and fear built up, but he's not got much of a personal connection to anyone. I think this is where him being part Cal is going to come in, myself. Yes, of all the characters in play, only a bare minimum actually know who Lord English is. Rose knows him by name, and I think Aradia does too, and something's telling me Jade might but I don't know what. But Cal is Dave's greatest foe, and something all the kids and trolls are in some way familiar with.That's the foe they're going up against from their point of view. They're not fighting Lord English. They're fighting Big Cal; and that's saying nothing about the trolls coming face to face with the Vast Honker that Gamzee's been going on about all this time.
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Nov 8, 2011 15:57
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Being part Cal isn't much to hang your hat on. Okay Dave might freak out but I doubt it'll elicit more than a round of gallows humour from his friends and a burst of profanity from Karkat (but what doesn't?). In terms of wanting to beat him, only Aradia's really got the close sort of connection to Lord English himself (through her ancestor, as well as the treatment she got while being very aware of the cause). The rest might be able to see it as finally putting a face to all their suffering and tribulations, but even then I expect John's going to be sort of "heheheh whats with the puppet hulk guy? wait, he's the final boss?" I might just be over-thinking it. We always seem to think things are going to be way more of a dramatic big deal than they usually turn out to be (John didn't break down at the sight of his dead dad and dead Rose, Jade didn't flip out on Tavros for inadvertently killing Grandpa, the other trolls were basically okay with Gamzee as soon as Karkat calmed him down). Maybe everyone'll just fist-bunp and get to fighting the final boss already.
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Nov 8, 2011 16:08
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After all the build up LE has received, if you're not going to give him the spotlight now, when are you? Besides, all indications are that it's impossible to face him head on like DMK, and that the only way to "win" is through indirect methods and lots of Weird Time poo poo.
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Nov 8, 2011 16:15
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I think LE could get a good amount of menace by freely moving the dream bubbles.
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Nov 8, 2011 16:40
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If Hussie does do a 'Dave/Aradia/Rose are evil now' thing I really hope it's better done than just a 'got touched by green stuff; evil now', because that'd be incredibly unsatisfying. I mean making Aradia evil just because is ok, she wasn't that much more developed then Gamzee or Eridan, but making Dave or Rose evil just because would be incredibly stupid. They're much more fleshed out and a lot more people are invested in them. I know Hussie's all about defying reader expectations and stuff but I do think he knows there's a line and I think making two major characters evil because they got slimed is crossing that line. A much better way would be to kind of show their new perspectives as masters of fate and time, coupled with their previous personalities, developments and thoughts on being heroes and use that to explain why they might serve Lord English. The whole 'baptised in green fire' thing would merely be symbolic of their shift, instead of the actual reason why.
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Nov 8, 2011 16:40
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Agreed, although maybe their method of ascension could have pushed them down paths they were willing to walk. We don't know how or why Lord English was actually able to force Snowman, the Handmaiden, and the Condence into his self-destructive service. In part, serving him is compatible with their personalities, but in part it also seems like they've been forced. Remember when Eridan wanted to join Bec Noir in order to survive? That argument was only stupid because Bec Noir didn't want servants. Lord English took servants of all kinds to ensure his existence, and though we don't know what his motives are here at the end of time (that is, besides ensuring he comes into existence in the first place, which he's done) he might need servants for that too. Aradia's so fatalistic that it'd be in keeping with her character to transfer from "my master is an unavoidable fate" before the creation of the Green Sun (which she couldn't stop) to "my master is Lord English, nigh-unstoppable lord of fate" (who is so powerful that he's as good as unstoppable). Everyone was happy when she went from sad little dead girl to living, smiling troll-fairy, but when she was dead she was clearly angry about her fate and Lord English (note when she complained to Rose even though she knew it wouldn't help) while after the fact she's been a lot happier about the hand fate's dealt her, even though it's lead to some terrible results. It'd be a Hussie-appropriate twist for something we thought was a positive character development to turn out to be a negative one. Rose and Dave are harder to read. They're both attracted to dark forces and don't think of themselves as heroic, with a high tendency for self-destruction and escapism. Maybe they could see serving Lord English as the final escape? Maybe they're afraid of being the sort of heroes that thoughtlessly take a stand against the biggest evil in the multiverse? Maybe Lord English whispers his own promises, like the Horror-Terrors do? There's a lot of ways this could hypothetically go. In fact, one of the most fun parts of Homestuck is imagining all the possibilities that are living, potential options at any one moment in time. Dolash fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Nov 8, 2011 |
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Nov 8, 2011 20:15
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I think the baptism of green fire is going to be less to do with 'lord english is gonna control you now' and more to do with 'lord english gave you those green god powers and he can take them away again' I mean, the kids are literally gods now. Unless hussie scales back their powers massively it's gonna be hard to get interested in them in terms of any actual conflict. People will just think 'why doesn't jade just shrink this guy to the size of a bug and tread on him'
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Nov 8, 2011 20:17
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All English's hos end up dying. Aradia is done with dying. Aradia is not English's ho. If she IS English's ho, she's planning some crazy subversion to get around the whole "dying" thing.
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Nov 8, 2011 20:47
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heythisguyhere posted:All English's hos end up dying. The Handmaid technically lived far longer than anyone mortal ever had the opportunity to. I agree though that if Aradia is an agent of Lord English, she will jump at any opportunity she gets to undermine his plans.
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Nov 8, 2011 21:15
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According to TopatoCo, a new Problem Sleuth book and the first Homestuck book will be coming out later this month. So that's something to look forward to. 
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Nov 8, 2011 23:32
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Boneless Jogger posted:According to TopatoCo, a new Problem Sleuth book and the first Homestuck book will be coming out later this month. So that's something to look forward to. Finally, we get to see how the hell Hussie's going to pull this off.
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Nov 8, 2011 23:35
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Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. I don't think I'll have money for that, but I need it. I need it. FEdit: I suspect the first Homestuck book is actually going to be fairly easy, honestly. Act 1 had few complicated flashes and interactive scenes. Certainly some, but not as many.
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Nov 8, 2011 23:37
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Lord English has already been defeated. The trolls created the red universe and the kids will create the blue universe in the future as part of a mobeius double reacharound. Lord English and Doc Scratch might have destroyed thousands of universes and sessions like they said but now they can't escape the two universes because they are in a loop. He can scratch as many sessions as he wants, manipulate troll and human history and destroy the two universes but since they are deterministic things can only play out a certain way. That is all rampant speculation on my part. Speaking of large memos I recently reread http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005261 and realized future Gamzee was being totally sincere because he was already moirailed but it still scared the poo poo out out of Karkat because of the typing gimmick.
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Nov 8, 2011 23:38
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This is a random question that I've never been able to figure out: what word is 8r8k supposed to be? The only word I can think of is 'break', but Vriska uses 8s either in place of Bs or in place of the sound 'ate', and 'break' doesn't have a T sound anywhere. Is she using it differently in just this one place, or is it some other word that I just can't think of?
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Nov 9, 2011 00:49
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Cyrai posted:This is a random question that I've never been able to figure out: what word is 8r8k supposed to be? The only word I can think of is 'break', but Vriska uses 8s either in place of Bs or in place of the sound 'ate', and 'break' doesn't have a T sound anywhere. Is she using it differently in just this one place, or is it some other word that I just can't think of?
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Nov 9, 2011 00:51
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Keep in mind that when Vriska gets stressed or flustered she uses the number 8 in places that don't really work phonetically. #vriska101
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Nov 9, 2011 01:01
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Dmitri-9 posted:Speaking of large memos I recently reread http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005261 and realized future Gamzee was being totally sincere because he was already moirailed but it still scared the poo poo out out of Karkat because of the typing gimmick. Look at future Gamzee's timestamp. That Karkat was a little bit after 3:14 left on the countdown.
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Nov 9, 2011 01:11
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Dmitri-9 posted:Speaking of large memos I recently reread http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005261 and realized future Gamzee was being totally sincere because he was already moirailed but it still scared the poo poo out out of Karkat because of the typing gimmick. Yeah I'm pretty sure that was just before Gamzee killed Nepeta and Equius so Karkat had every reason to still be flipping his poo poo.
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Nov 9, 2011 01:25
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Thundarr posted:The Handmaid technically lived far longer than anyone mortal ever had the opportunity to. I agree though that if Aradia is an agent of Lord English, she will jump at any opportunity she gets to undermine his plans. One thing to be mindful of as well is that each of the trolls' fates is reverse-anti-mutual tied to the fates of their ancestors. Because the handmaid spent her life and ultimately died in service of Lord English, her descendant would be fated to break free of any service to which she was shackled.
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Nov 9, 2011 01:27
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Dmitri-9 posted:Speaking of large memos I recently reread http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005261 and realized future Gamzee was being totally sincere because he was already moirailed but it still scared the poo poo out out of Karkat because of the typing gimmick. No, I don't think so. Future Gamzee there was only 42 minutes ahead, which would put him at around the 2:30 mark on the countdown. He also makes reference to meeting some friends, being Equius and Nepeta most likely. It really reinforces just how much all the stuff that went down is Karkat's fault. If he had just listened to Gamzee and found him right away to do the shoosh-pap moirail thing he would've saved Equius and Nepeta, stopped Gamzee from manipulating Terezi into fighting Vriska and stopped him from voodoo-chuckling John and Dave. Karkat's honestly a pretty terrible leader.
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Nov 9, 2011 01:27
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Mazerunner posted:No, I don't think so. Future Gamzee there was only 42 minutes ahead, which would put him at around the 2:30 mark on the countdown. He also makes reference to meeting some friends, being Equius and Nepeta most likely. Yeah, shame on him for not being prescient and wasting time dragging around his unconscious (and one remaining sane [Terezi's just too weird]) friend. It's been made pretty clear that his browbeating everyone was the only thing keeping people in line up to this point. He unites everybody in the same way as John, he just approaches it from the opposite direction.
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Nov 9, 2011 01:41
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Plom Bar posted:One thing to be mindful of as well is that each of the trolls' fates is reverse-anti-mutual tied to the fates of their ancestors. This is why I think "the most important character in Homestuck" really is Gamzee. Everyone had their ancestor's fate reverse bight them in the rear end (assuming the slave Dualscar had killed really was the Dolorosa) except Gamzee. His ancestor had the Sufferer killed, but instead of Karkat killing Gamzee in return he used his Troll Jegus powers to calm him down, possibly throwing a wrench into the workings of paradox space.
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Nov 9, 2011 02:39
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Ok, yeah Karkat couldn't possibly know about all the stuff Gamzee would do. It's more that his first reaction is to try to get Equius to kill him rather than try to peacefully resolve things. I mean yeah Gamzee threatens him right off, that's pretty upsetting, but then Gamzee basically says 'come find me and we can resolve this peacefully' but Karkat doesn't even give it a chance. He sends Equius to kill Gamzee and then hides, leaving the rest of his team to their own devices. I guess a better strategy would be to find a safe place to stash Sollux and then have Equius and Nepeta meet up with them, then go find Gamzee to kill/caress him. Safety in numbers and working as a team and all that, right? And it kind of ties in with the Sufferer's tale as well, you know? The Sufferer was preaching love and kindness but then got whacked by the Highbloods, meanwhile Karkat's trying to off Gamzee which doesn't work until he peace and serenitied the poo poo out him. So sort of finishing his ancestor's legacy there. Add to that Karkat's emotional issues- he's obsessed with Rom-Coms but kind of falls apart himself, what with falling out with Terezi and hating himself, so to buck up and get a thing going with Gamzee is a pretty good step right? And honestly I don't think Karkat was a good leader during the Troll's session. Well I guess they didn't all kill each other which is a plus but for the most part it seemed like they were working individually or in small groups/pairs and didn't really have much overall co-ordination at all. But that's ok because this means that Karkat finally stepping up both emotionally and as a leader to confront Gamzee will hopefully mean he's hit a big milestone on his character development so in the future he'll be a better leader, one who actually is more like John I guess. vvv that's not what I meant  , just more that he leads inspires through kindness instead of an iron fist. And Hussie has implied that Gamzee possibly used his chucklevoodoo to mess with Terezi, causing her to focus on Vriska. If Karkat had handled things sooner that wouldn't have happened, although its goodness in the long run depends on if Vriska could have been talked down by someone else/some other method.
Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Nov 9, 2011 |
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Nov 9, 2011 02:42
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Mazerunner posted:so in the future he'll be a better leader, one who actually is more like John I guess. What? You mean Karkat should blindly walk into everything that happens without any discretion and manage to stay alive because everyone else intervenes with some effortless escape already set up for him? Also what at Terezi vs Vriska being Karkat's fault indirectly and also a bad thing.
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Nov 9, 2011 02:53
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Ammat The Ankh posted:This is why I think "the most important character in Homestuck" really is Gamzee. Everyone had their ancestor's fate reverse bight them in the rear end (assuming the slave Dualscar had killed really was the Dolorosa) except Gamzee. His ancestor had the Sufferer killed, but instead of Karkat killing Gamzee in return he used his Troll Jegus powers to calm him down, possibly throwing a wrench into the workings of paradox space. The Grand Highblood didn't kill The Sufferer, it was The Condesce that gave the order. I would say that Gamzee's Ancestor-driven destiny was kind of already fulfilled, in that the Subjugglator pretty much just killed and killed and killed for the rest of his days, Gamzee would go out as a chill motherfucker who overcame his innate, intinctive drive to kill. As for the Condesce/Feferi, personality differences aside, Feferi being killed before everyone else (with possible exception to Tavros, though the timeline's a bit unclear around that point) and resurrecting Sollux does the job of counteracting Condesce's being the last surviving ancestor and pushing the ψiioniic to exert himself to death.
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Nov 9, 2011 03:04
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While we wait for 11/11/11, why don't we appreciate this wonderful thing that showed up over in the Fandom!Secrets thread. Truly, this is the one and only true way of looking at it.
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Nov 9, 2011 03:07
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Sometimes you want the fandom to be an actual, physical object you can burn down. 
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Nov 9, 2011 03:08
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QueerPope posted:While we wait for 11/11/11, why don't we appreciate this wonderful thing that showed up over in the Fandom!Secrets thread. Homestuck really does inspire some of the best things.
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Nov 9, 2011 03:09
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QueerPope posted:While we wait for 11/11/11, why don't we appreciate this wonderful thing that showed up over in the Fandom!Secrets thread. My favourite part is Vriska (Vriska).
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Nov 9, 2011 03:12
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SynthOrange posted:Sometimes you want the fandom to be an actual, physical object you can burn down. gently caress you, that is absolutely hilarious. Motion that all further references to Vriska (Vriska) be made in that style.
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Nov 9, 2011 03:14
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Seems legit.
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Nov 9, 2011 03:15
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What many people fail to understand is that Vriska (Vriska) is a universal constant that transcends analogy.
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Nov 9, 2011 03:16
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It's not that there's not political allegory for Vriska, it's that the allegory is also Vriska. Vriska (Vriska) for president 2012?
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Nov 9, 2011 03:23
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Vriska is irreducible.
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Nov 9, 2011 03:24
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When Eridan suddenly makes a dramatic comeback in the plot, it'll be Andrew Hussie forecasting a reelection victory.
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Nov 9, 2011 03:38
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SynthOrange posted:Sometimes you want the fandom to be an actual, physical object you can burn down. What? This right here is a masterpiece of ironic fandom. I'll take a million of these before poorly thought out fantroll cosplay or people bitching that Hussie has taken the story in a direction that ruined their ships.
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Nov 9, 2011 04:26
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How would Trickster figure into this? I mean in relation to the Obama thing, I already have a crackpot theory about his role in the web comic.
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Nov 9, 2011 04:32
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Level Slide posted:How would Trickster figure into this? I mean in relation to the Obama thing, I already have a crackpot theory about his role in the web comic. You ever read Tom the Dancing Bug? Tricksters are Counter-Earth.
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Nov 9, 2011 04:40
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QueerPope posted:While we wait for 11/11/11, why don't we appreciate this wonderful thing that showed up over in the Fandom!Secrets thread. So when did SuperMechaGodzilla start reading Homestuck?
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Nov 9, 2011 04:46
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