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Peepopo posted:So as I wait for my copy of 'Focus not fear' to arrive, Dixie seems to have regressed to where she was when I first got her 10 months ago; Losing her mind for any and all cars and squirrels and if there are none of those around she'll just choose something else to have a bark at. Due to this I'm about to try starting from scratch. I've begun clicker training albeit we're still in the first phases of that. I've decided that baby-steps may be best for her and as such I'm working strictly indoors then I'll progress to yard and then slowly get more into the street/park. My only concern is she won't be getting much exercise this way. I'm wondering if this is just a necessary evil of having to train such a reactive dog? Also does this seem like the best way to go about addressing this reactivity? I would second finding out exactly what the dog walker is doing when Dixie reacts. Anything from her losing her cool and punishing/yelling to unconsciously tightening the leash and tensing up when a stimulus appears could be responsible for the regression. Does the walker (and you) carry treats on every walk? It could also be the environment, the walks, the head collar, or something you really can't identify. Some dogs even change their behavior to something that looks worse when if fact they are making progress. I would just pay attention, try different things, watch for what works. Most regressions are temporary. When you say 'lose her mind', what does that entail? Barking, lunging, growling, how is her posture, her ears, where is she looking? Desensitization needs to include the gradual decreasing of distance to the object(s) that are bothering her. If you can't control that distance and need to work on foundational training, then keeping her inside is okay. Just make sure to do a lot of training for mental stimulation and a lot of play with toys. You can do walking drills (with the head collar and leash) inside as well if you have enough room. The head collar is just like any other collar in that most dogs will fight it at first and you need to teach them not to pull/desensitize them to it. You can do this inside. One thing particularly to watch out for with a head collar is that, the way it is built, you need to use it in a certain way. You can NOT pull straight forward (this puts pressure on the back of her head and she will resist it) and you can NOT pull straight backward. Also, as Fraction said, NEVER correct your dog with a head collar, you can wrench their neck. The best use of a head collar is to gently turn your dog's head by pulling to the side (there are probably videos somewhere if you don't know what I mean). This will get them to come with you without resistance. This is what they use with horses, who you obviously can't force to go anywhere. With the head collar, you should practice two things: practice calling your dog to you voluntarily (in addition to just calling, you can try things like asking for a Touch or a backaway) which eventually you will use 'in the field' and second, practice gently pulling the collar to the side so your dog will be desensitized to being pulled and learn to come willingly. Reward when your dog comes to you. Then if your dog is reacting, or about to react (my dog stares hard at triggers) you can redirect them with very little pressure. The collar is not a punishment, so there is no need to correct, it is a tool to help you keep your dog under control. Keep asking questions here if you have them. Working with a reactive dog is an exploratory process. There are a lot of good techniques out there and different dogs will prefer different ones and you need to be able to identify which ones are working and which aren't.
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Nov 8, 2011 13:51
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notsoape posted:Take her to the vet and get panels done to see if there is a medical reason for the lethargy that you perceive. And before the accusations start piling up, no, my parents aren't puppy-hating monsters. The old man's getting retired at the end of the year, and he's always wanted a dog. It just so happened that some puppies were put up for adoption. lovely timing, is all. Anyway, it's not that I think she's lethargic; perhaps lazy wasn't the right word. She seems more like she's totally disinterested in everything except my uncle's dog. If she were human, I'd have her see a psychiatrist for a possible depression. Bottom line is, I just want her to approach play as something that's fun for her.
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Nov 8, 2011 18:18
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inscrutable horse posted:If she were human, I'd have her see a psychiatrist for a possible depression. That's why it's so important to get her checked out at the vet; there are a bunch of health problems which could cause lethargy or general malaise in a baby puppy and IMO it would be in you(r parents') best interest to go rule them out. Off the top of my head, worms can cause lethargy, or there could be a neurological problem, or even parvo (I've heard of cases where puppies contracted it even though they were innoculated). That's just random brainstorming and I'm no vet, but I do have a bunch of experience with young puppies. At the very least you should take the dog's temperature and see if she has a fever, do the neck pinch test to check if she's dehydrated and take a look at her gums to make sure the mucus membranes are pink and healthy. Really, though, I would strongly encourage your parents to take her to the vet to get checked out. Little puppies can get very sick very quickly. And I don't know where you got the idea that we'd think your parents are "puppy-hating monsters" 
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Nov 8, 2011 18:32
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Kiri koli posted:I would second finding out exactly what the dog walker is doing when Dixie reacts. Anything from her losing her cool and punishing/yelling to unconsciously tightening the leash and tensing up when a stimulus appears could be responsible for the regression. Does the walker (and you) carry treats on every walk? It could also be the environment, the walks, the head collar, or something you really can't identify. Some dogs even change their behavior to something that looks worse when if fact they are making progress. I would just pay attention, try different things, watch for what works. Most regressions are temporary. It's a new walker I have now. The old one would keep her in the yard and rarely venture out front due to her issues. The new girl has been taking her on actual walks around the neighbourhood which is something that can't be done with Dixie right now. I know they carry treats but I can't say exactly how she reacts when they walk together and I'm sure if the walker isn't going to tell me if she's doing something that may be seen as cruel to the dog. When we do walk she's constantly on high alert, scanning everywhere for anything. Looking around non-stop and there is always a whimpering that goes along with this. Her ears are typically back against her head or occasionally up at these times. When she does zero in on a stimulus she pulls on the leash which turns into barking and spinning. The head collar is hard to manage when she gets into this pulling/spinning. I can try to be gentle as possible but her own body weight seems to counteract any of my efforts. I try to use the collar also to redirect when she is focused on something but when you move her head to the side her eyeballs just swivel so she can stay looking at whatever she has chosen to be pre-occupied with today. Thanks for all the answers I'm going to have many more questions I'm sure.
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Nov 8, 2011 19:37
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Peepopo posted:It's a new walker I have now. The old one would keep her in the yard and rarely venture out front due to her issues. The new girl has been taking her on actual walks around the neighbourhood which is something that can't be done with Dixie right now. I know they carry treats but I can't say exactly how she reacts when they walk together and I'm sure if the walker isn't going to tell me if she's doing something that may be seen as cruel to the dog. This sounds like she has general anxiety about outdoor environments (how is she indoors?) with being on constant alert. I agree that your dog should not be going on walks where whoever is walking her is not prepared to be doing counter-conditioning. You need to tell your walker what you want her to do (stay in the yard) if you can't trust what she's doing otherwise. It doesn't hurt to ask what she IS doing because remember a lot of people see nothing wrong with punishing dogs in certain ways and will freely tell you about it. When Dixie goes into spinning mode (or right before), can you shove a treat in her mouth? If she can eat, then you have something you can do (counter-condition). If not, she is over threshold and you just need to remove her from the situation (hard if she's big, I know). My dog is also a spinner. She does gymnastics with her head collar and leash. As such, I've done a LOT of work teaching her that she is supposed to sit and give me attention when she is freaking out. After months of counter-conditioning when I could (when she wasn't over threshold and out of control) and conditioning her to sit, I can now recover her from a lot of situations. When I can't get her to recover, she is over-threshold and I just get her out of the line of sight however I can. So that's what it sounds like for Dixie right now. She's being put into situations where she is near or over threshold and she doesn't have the foundational training to know what you want her to do (sit or walk away with you or whatever). The best thing is to keep her far enough away from triggers that she can still learn and won't be freaking out. However, I know that's almost impossible most of the time. If you think she is going to injure herself by lunging in the head collar, then I would switch to a front clip harness. If you think she'll be okay until you given training with it a good chance, then I would stick with the head collar. Clickers are great for this stage because if once she gets the clicker, you can use it to counter-condition and eventually the click itself will be a nice distraction. Good luck!
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Nov 8, 2011 20:00
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inscrutable horse posted:She's gotten all her vaccinations, if that's what you mean. Otherwise I don't know her medical history - like I said, she's not my dog, though I seem to be the only one to take care of her. And I'm not particularly worried about her health at the moment, I just don't want her to pick up any bad habits. Maybe I'm projecting my work as a teacher onto the dog, but poo poo like that needs to be nipped in the bud Check out these links: http://www.clickerdogs.com/createamotivatingtoy.htm http://www.fannygott.com/increasing-play-drive-in-your-dog http://www.youtube.com/user/tab289?blend=6&ob=5#p/u/4/4794fn7ArGM They're about how to get your dog more focused on appropriate toys and interaction in general. The #1 most important thing in dealing with dogs is to determine what is valuable to your dog and then inserting yourself into it. As in, if your pup likes sniffing lampposts then make it a game where the pup needs to interact with you (IN A FUN WAY) before being released to go sniff. Or, like in that last link, the speaker shows how he transferred value from an old beaten up toy to something more accessible. Take advantage of when the pup is naturally hyped up (like when you first arrive home) and do some work with him then. ALWAYS stop before the pup loses interest - your goal is to leave him wanting more. I'll also toss this link out: http://denisefenzi.com/ She's a great trainer who has a new pup in her house, and all her recent blog posts are about how she's motivating the dog to play appropriately and choose to interact with her. Basically you'll need to be creative, reinforcing and patient with the pup. Barring any medical issues you should be able to create a pup who is dying to work with you on your schedule.
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Nov 8, 2011 20:22
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I wonder what the percentage of people who would punish their child physically for misdeeds support Ceasar Millan... (and variations of that) who wouldnt hit their child but punish a dog. Etc. e: Im watching those Zak George videos and he sounds like a douchenozzle. It almost feels like, on one end theres CM with those catchwords and cool personality, and then theres Zak with crawling on the grass with his dog, spouting about how dog training is all science and not enough genuine emotion hippiness. It doesn't matter to the public who is right, its really just how you come off, which is such a shame. I think kikopups videos are awesome, very straightforward and helpful without being so overly preachy that turns a lot of people off. I realize that trainers want to change the popular way to thinking... and he is right, people will lash out at opinions that go against the norm of thinking. Malalol fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Nov 8, 2011 |
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Nov 8, 2011 20:56
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Some dogs just take a while to warm up to stuff. Our puppy wasn't really super enthusiastic about anything in particular for the longest time. When we did puppy class with him I saw other dogs look up at their owners with big moon-eyes like "I WILL DO ANYTHING FOR THAT TREAT JUST GIVE ME THAT TREAT AND I WILL LOVE YOU ALWAYS" and he'd nonchalantly do his trick, take the treat in his mouth, spit it out, and go sniff something. He didn't even like peanut butter and I thought he was broken (not really). He'd play tug or fetch for about 3 minutes before he got bored. Now he's 6 months and loooooves peanut butter and loooooves agility and loooooves Touch and Go To Your Crate and loooooves new bully sticks. It just took him a while to grow up and get more excited I guess.
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Nov 8, 2011 21:03
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Malalol posted:
I'm glad I'm not the only one to feel like that. I've never been a fan of his videos. Something about him turns me off. I do feel like the video touched on an important issue, which is finding what is inspiring to your individual dog - at that point you can look into modifying your dog's motivation while respecting those innate desires. But yeah, on average I think kikopup/Emily Larlham does a better job at spearheading positive reinforcement training to newbie trainers.
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Nov 8, 2011 21:18
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Psyche was a year and a half old the first time she got sooooo excited and ran after a toy and then brought it back to me to throw again in our living room. For a couple months after that, I kept bringing a toy outside to throw for her and she would just look at me and then walk away. Then one day she hauled rear end after it, picked it up and ran it back to me, so excited that she was tossing it into the air or tripping over it every few steps. Still won't tug worth poo poo, but that was still the best day.
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Nov 8, 2011 21:21
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Hurley just started to go to his crate on his own after he hears one of us opening his bag of treats after he comes in from outside. I am so happy I want to burst. He literally leaps and bounds to his crate, goes inside, and lays down to wait for his reward. So happy right now.
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Nov 8, 2011 22:06
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notsoape posted:And I don't know where you got the idea that we'd think your parents are "puppy-hating monsters" Still, I've seen a marked improvement ever since I've allowed her into the downstairs apartment where I live. She has a lot of old furniture she can crawl under, lots of dust bunnies for her to chase, and a bunch of nooks and crannies to sniff out. Now she's wearing herself out all the time, and seems a lot happier in general. I think I need to have a word with the folks about making the house a bit more puppy friendly. a life less posted:lotsa nifty links
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Nov 9, 2011 11:17
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a life less posted:I'm glad I'm not the only one to feel like that. I've never been a fan of his videos. Something about him turns me off. I do feel like the video touched on an important issue, which is finding what is inspiring to your individual dog - at that point you can look into modifying your dog's motivation while respecting those innate desires. But yeah, on average I think kikopup/Emily Larlham does a better job at spearheading positive reinforcement training to newbie trainers. Oh, that guy. I hooked into one of his videos when I had a barking issue (well I still do) and it was about the least helpful dog training video I've ever seen. He spent 11 minutes lecturing on how of course dogs bark when you put them out in the back yard alone, and you solve the problem by not doing that, and I kept waiting for the entire 11 minutes hoping for some help for some OTHER situation. I know there are dogs out there who bark in other situations because I have one of those dogs. (For what it's worth, my dog, one year old, border collie mix, just loves and loves and loves to bark, and he will bark at anything, anytime. He will bark at anything that's different from the last time he saw it (i.e., when my next door neighbor was covering her plants at night, so they looked different when he went out for his midnight pee, so he barked). He will bark at dogs walking down the street. He will sit in front of me and bark because he wants me to play with him. He will bark in the car because he senses we're on the route to the OFF-LEASH DOG PARK yeah! and he's excited. He will bark at my cat because the cat looked at him. He will bark at his reflection in the sliding glass door. And on and on....) There are lots of things to say about all this barking, and other people have said them. That guy said nothing. It's like he just puts up these videos so you will hire him or buy his books. I'm sure he's a great dog trainer, but he's not a great trainer-trainer, at least not on video (but then, neither is Cesar). kikopup and some others have been just great, the things people here have linked to have been more helpful than not, and even most of the things I randomly found while surfing were of SOME help, but not him.
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Nov 9, 2011 22:42
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Kiri koli posted:This sounds like she has general anxiety about outdoor environments (how is she indoors?) with being on constant alert. I agree that your dog should not be going on walks where whoever is walking her is not prepared to be doing counter-conditioning. You need to tell your walker what you want her to do (stay in the yard) if you can't trust what she's doing otherwise. It doesn't hurt to ask what she IS doing because remember a lot of people see nothing wrong with punishing dogs in certain ways and will freely tell you about it. Indoors she is great. Sometimes she's a little stubborn but for the most part she listens. She can get pre-occupied with looking out windows at times but I try and limit her exposure with blinds and curtains. She'll bark if she hears the neighbours dog or the door. However with the door she knows her position, we trained her to go sit on the stairs, and she does this quite well. It's very hard to get her to take treats once she is outside and focused. I've taken her off walks completely and hopefully slowly we can build. If we're walking and she's completely out of control I'll actually pick her up which seems to confuse her and snap her out of what she's zoned in on. I'm pretty motivated to try the clicker and see what we can achieve....PLUS the book arrived today so I can't wait to get reading.
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Nov 10, 2011 01:51
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Peepopo posted:It's very hard to get her to take treats once she is outside and focused. I've taken her off walks completely and hopefully slowly we can build. If we're walking and she's completely out of control I'll actually pick her up which seems to confuse her and snap her out of what she's zoned in on. Be very careful with picking your girl up to stop her reactivity - by doing so you are massively increasing the chance that she will redirect, and your face will be very close if she does. Does she often react so strongly that you need to pick her up to 'snap her out of it'?
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Nov 10, 2011 02:04
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Peepopo posted:Indoors she is great. Sometimes she's a little stubborn but for the most part she listens. She can get pre-occupied with looking out windows at times but I try and limit her exposure with blinds and curtains. She'll bark if she hears the neighbours dog or the door. However with the door she knows her position, we trained her to go sit on the stairs, and she does this quite well. Taking treats in a stressful situation is definitely something that can be cultivated, so keep at it. Try different treats too. You want o use something she can't resist, her favorite treat. This kind of thing is important so use the best for it. Be really careful about picking up your dog. We did this a lot with our dog at first (in the beginning it stopped her reacting) and she unfortunately became reactive to being picked up. So now being picked up during a stressful situation is a trigger for her to start reacting or get worse and we only do it now if there is a danger to her or something else because of close quarters. You can try to keep this from happening by picking her up a LOT at happy, low stress times and really enforce that picking up = good. She could still become reactive to it though, so try to use it sparingly and have alternatives.
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Nov 10, 2011 02:16
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Kiri koli posted:Taking treats in a stressful situation is definitely something that can be cultivated, so keep at it. Try different treats too. You want o use something she can't resist, her favorite treat. This kind of thing is important so use the best for it. I'm thinking maybe I need to use some of my left overs just to kick it up a notch.. BAM! I don't pick her up very often. Usually only when she appears to be beyond help. I lift her with her butt higher than her head so biting my face isn't an option, not that I think she would. She has never shown any sort of aggression to me. Usually once I pick her up she settles and I plop her down again to move along. I do work on picking her up at 'happy' times too although she never seems very pleased with the whole thing.
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Nov 10, 2011 03:47
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Just wanted to give everyone an update; this is the second week of medicating Maverick and I think we're making some progress. She's capable of being in a room without me without have a panic attack and hasn't destroyed her cage or hurt herself in about 5 days, I know it takes a while to work, but I relaly believe that we're already seeing some improvement. I also went to an event with the local agility club and it looks like a good fit no one was perfect but everyone had a great time. So, I emailed the training direct, but the January class is already full so I'm just on the waiting list.
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Nov 10, 2011 04:35
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Peepopo posted:I'm thinking maybe I need to use some of my left overs just to kick it up a notch.. BAM! Redirects can happen without any sign of aggression. Before I realized how bad Bailey's reactivity toward cars was, I took him on a long walk on a busy road and he finally had enough and with what I would have said was no sign of aggression spun around and bit me on my leg. I still have a scar from it and it taught me to respect that when Bailey is stressed enough, he is no longer a good "communicator" and that I need to avoid him getting to that point.
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Nov 10, 2011 04:39
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I skimmed the first couple pages and the last couple pages and didn't see a question like this so I'm going to go ahead and ask. Forgive me if it's a repeat. My beautiful female dachshund, Gypsy, is (for the most part) very well behaved. We taught her to love to fetch, come when called, sit, stay, back up, roll over, among other things. Off leash outdoors she stays fairly close and always comes when we want. The only problem we have (and it's a big one) is that when we leave the house she gets into stuff she's not supposed to. She's JUST big enough to jump up on the couch and then to the end tables. She pulls off mail and those plastic floss things we use, and even chewed up my mom's checkbook one day. So we just started cleaning everything off the end tables before we left the house. Then we started seeing trash from the upstairs bathroom trashcan. Once when mom was doing laundry, Gypsy even went upstairs, dug through the piles and pulled out some of mom's dirty undies and brought them downstairs to chew/lick.  She's 3 years old and this didn't start until she was over 2. She never seemed to have separation anxiety, I think it's just boredom. She sleeps in a crate at night and likes it there, but I feel bad crating her during the day if we go out somewhere. Should I just get over my guilt and crate her every time we leave? Or is there a way to fix this behavior while we're gone? Buggiezor fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Nov 10, 2011 |
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Nov 10, 2011 16:22
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Buggiezor posted:I skimmed the first couple pages and the last couple pages and didn't see a question like this so I'm going to go ahead and ask. Forgive me if it's a repeat. As long as you're not gone for 5+ hours without letting her out, it sounds like crating would be the better option (unless you can baby-gate & puppy proof one room of the house). Leave her in there with things to do (kong, bully stick, toy, etc) and give her lots of exercise before/after you go. If she's fine with her crate at night then she should be fine with it when you're out of the house too.
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Nov 10, 2011 16:35
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Yeah, what Plus_Infinity said. If you can't dog-proof the place or close her off into one dog-proof area, just go with crating. Give her some fun puzzle/chew toys or long-lasting treats, hide pieces of hot dog in her blanket, whatever to make it fun and keep her busy. I dunno what you do for exercise, but yeah, try wearing her out before you leave so she'll nap the whole (or at least most of the) time. It's a good idea either way. She should be okay.
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Nov 10, 2011 16:58
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RIP my dogs balls. He went in to get snipped around 8am this morning. I go to pick him up around 3pm. Hurley will now be known as Coney for the next 10 days.
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Nov 10, 2011 17:03
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get out posted:RIP my dogs balls. We just went through that 2 weeks ago. I thought he'd HATE the cone, as he puts up a fight with harnesses, but he was totally chill with the cone. The funniest thing was because he has short legs and a long snout (he's a corgi) if he even tilted his head down the tiniest bit the cone would drag on the ground. Right before halloween, all we heard was KKSHHHHHH KKKSHHHHHHH of the cone dragging on the wood floor-- it sounded like a horror movie villain slowly dragging a body towards us.
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Nov 10, 2011 17:06
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Plus_Infinity posted:We just went through that 2 weeks ago. I thought he'd HATE the cone, as he puts up a fight with harnesses, but he was totally chill with the cone. The funniest thing was because he has short legs and a long snout (he's a corgi) if he even tilted his head down the tiniest bit the cone would drag on the ground. Right before halloween, all we heard was KKSHHHHHH KKKSHHHHHHH of the cone dragging on the wood floor-- it sounded like a horror movie villain slowly dragging a body towards us. I just laughed out loud at the thought of that. I know he'll probably not care at all. He's such a chill dog for a 9 month old. How many days did you keep it on?
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Nov 10, 2011 18:20
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I work from home, so when he was in the same room as me I didn't have it on. We kept it on at night/ when we weren't directly supervising. 5 days after we had a checkup with our vet who said he'd been too active and also had been licking it a little somehow (super sneaky because I was SURE I'd been keeping an eye on him all of the time) so he went on light antibiotics and we kept the cone on even more. 12 days after his neuter he got his stitches out and was deemed good to go. I'd definitely err on keeping on the cone longer than you need to. Though if your dog is chill it may not be so bad-- my dog is pretty bouncy AND we have a cat who looooves to be chased and was teasing the heck out of our dog trying to get him to run around, so it was really hard to keep him from being too active.
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Nov 10, 2011 18:25
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This Malinois knows some really nifty tricks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMyeEmgtG88&NR=1&feature=fvwp What a good boy 
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Nov 11, 2011 07:45
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An update on Nala, Laziest of Dogs: The old man and I took her to the vet's today for her second bout of vaccines, and she got a general health check while we were at it. She got a clean bill of health, and I think we managed to cure her of her fear of car-rides. She whined a bit on the way to the vet, but on the way home she just looked out the window  Otherwise I've been experimenting with different toys. Balls and sticks still don't really grab her attention, but seeing how she likes tugs of war, I've given her an old rope that was lying around, and that's really gotten her into the mood. She's much more playful now, when we go outside with her. She's also discovered that the cardboard tubes from toilet rolls are the best thing ever, so we're slowly building up a repertoire of toys for her
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Nov 11, 2011 20:07
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Our almost 7 month old dog got neutered 3 weeks ago and he's not running around trying to hump the cat any more, which is great. However, since he got neutered, every time my boyfriend and I hug or kiss he runs up to us and humps my leg. I didn't notice this happening before-- he did hump our legs sometimes, but it wasn't every single time we hugged-- it was just kind of random. Now, the ONLY time he'll hump is specifically only my legs, and specifically when my bf and I are hugging/kissing. I tell him "down" and he'll listen every time and get off my leg, but this isn't a great habit to get into. What's the best way of preventing this behavior? I really am not okay with never hugging my boyfriend! I was thinking maybe the two of us tell him to sit/stay, then we hug, and then we praise/treat if he stays. Do it in super quick and slowly increase the duration? Also any insight into why he might be doing this would be really great.
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Nov 11, 2011 20:15
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Plus_Infinity posted:What's the best way of preventing this behavior? I really am not okay with never hugging my boyfriend! I was thinking maybe the two of us tell him to sit/stay, then we hug, and then we praise/treat if he stays. Do it in super quick and slowly increase the duration? Also any insight into why he might be doing this would be really great. Rather than sit/stay (which will just make him more excited to GET YOU when released, most likely), I'd advise throwing a handful of food every time you hug for the next few weeks and/or until he gets the moment of where-is-my-food whenever you approach each other for a hug. Then you just slowly lower the amount of food he gets at a time, then put it on an intermittent schedule. Just my two cents though, others might have other ideas. Edit: I think he's probably doing it out of excitement (oh man something is happening ahhh let me play!), maybe mixed with some anxiety about if you or your boyfriend are hurting each other and he's trying to distract and defuse the situation. I dunno exactly though. Fraction fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Nov 12, 2011 |
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Nov 11, 2011 20:45
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Gaaah.  My Goddamned Dog is driving me crazy again. Biscuit is one year old and a GSD/collie-of-some-type mix who is extremely high-energy. She's also smart as a whip and has the morals of a lawyer, which means that when she feels like obeying and/or she knows I can make her obey (like when she's leashed), she's a total angel and will sit, lie, drop it, come here etc on command perfectly. The problem is when she doesn't feel like it and knows she can get away with it, she ignores me completely. This is usually when she is doing something she doesn't want to stop doing (playing ball off-leash on our walks, playing at the dog park, etc.) It doesn't matter how long we've been doing it or how tired she gets, if she's in one of those situations, she will not come when I call her, and she runs from me if I approach her. I've tried coaxing her to come to me with super-high-value treats like ham (her absolute favorite), her favorite toy, etc, and nothing works. Today we were at the dog park for almost two hours and she ran and played until she was exhausted, but even when she flopped down and was lying in the dirt panting, she still got up and ran from me every time I approached because she was having fun and didn't want to go home. I finally had to wait until she was distracted by another dog and then just grab her collar and put the leash on. She's an obedient dog about 90% of the time, but that other 10% when she decides she's going to do her own thing, she loving ignores me completely or actively defies me and it's making me crazy.  The dog training books I'm reading say that this is happening because she doesn't respect me or consider me to be in charge, but at all other times she behaves and listens. I've drilled her on "come here" in contained situations like when we're playing in the back yard and she does it perfectly, every time, then we get in a situation where she knows I can't enforce the "come here" and it goes right out the damned window. I don't think it's because she's not getting enough exercise, because I walk her for an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening, every single day, along with lots of energetic playing in the backyard. She just knows when I can't make her do something she doesn't want to do, and in those situations, she acts as though I'm not even there. Good God, what do I do? I'm about to lose my mind here. Edit: Just want to add that I use only positive reinforcement training. It just makes the whole thing worse that people see her refusing to come and running from me and assume that it's because I beat her or something.
bonestructure fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 12, 2011 22:03
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Do not let her offlead again until the problem is sorted. There are tons of things you can do to improve recall, but for safety reasons until your recall is solid, you should have your dog attached to you at all times when you are in public alifeless has a lot of great tips about recall training, but just a general question - have you ever tried working with her on a long (40ft) leash in the areas you go on walks?
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Nov 12, 2011 22:21
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notsoape posted:Do not let her offlead again until the problem is sorted. There are tons of things you can do to improve recall, but for safety reasons until your recall is solid, you should have your dog attached to you at all times when you are in public My recall is flimsy in the extreme, point taken. I never have tried a long leash with her, do I just get one and walk her on it like a normal leash?
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Nov 12, 2011 22:25
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bonestructure posted:disrespectful dog First off, any book that says your dog isn't doing x because she doesn't respect you or because you aren't dominant, throw that book out (or ignore those parts if other parts are useful). Your dog has a weak recall in certain situations because not coming to you is more rewarding than coming to you. It's a hard thing to compete with the environment and if your dog learns that coming to you means an end to playtime or that coming to you is optional and chasing the squirrel is waaay more fun, then your dog isn't going to come when called. So I'm not actually the best person to lead you in perfecting your recall since my dog can't be off-leash, so I'll just get you started with what I know until others can come and help you out. The main goal is to build enough value in coming to you that your dog does it everytime, no matter what they are doing. It sounds like you've already gotten this down in your backyard. So that's great. If you give us a few more details on how you've done that, people will be able to direct you better. You can drill your dog and get results, but there are also ways of turning it into a fun game which help speed things along. When you try to move this to outside your yard, you want to make sure of two things: 1) that you never call your dog unless you are sure they are going to come to you (so it is not just background noise). This is hard to do perfectly, but in the beginning, you want to wait until you know you have your dogs attention and even until she is already coming, to call out the cue. 2) if you call and she doesn't come, you need a way to make her come. Have you tried a drag line? If your dog can't come when called, then maybe she needs to take a step back in freedom and drag a line (a regular leash or a 50 footer) depending on the situation. That way you can go get her if you have to. You'll basically need to start from the beginning in an open environment and repeat what you did in your backyard because you've added a lot of distractions. One thing you definitely want to avoid is making coming to you a punishment. This means that being recalled should not always signal the end of playtime. That is a huge punishment for the dog and will ruin their recall. So when you take your dog out to play, call them over a ton of times and do exactly what you would do when playtime is ended. This means grabbing their collar and attaching a leash if that's what you would do to leave. Then release them back to play (with a treat if you want). That way, coming over and having her collar grabbed doesn't equal the end of playtime most of the time and she'll be happy to do it. I also do a lot of little things like always reward with a treat when my dog comes to me, whether I called her or not. We play a game where we send her back and forth between me and my husband and she gets a treat for touching our hands. There's also something called a restrained recall that I haven't done a ton of work with. The idea is that one person holds the dog back and enticing them to get excited about running to the other person, then releases them. The other person runs and the dog is really excited to chase them! Perhaps someone has a good video because it's a little more complicated than that... I'm sure it works really great for high energy/excited dogs though. Edit to add: If she generally stays around you, then you can use the long leash as a drag line without securing it to something. If your dog could potentially take off like mine, then you should hold it. Also if your dog tends to bother other people/dogs without your permission and can't be recalled, I would definitely hold it and be very aware of your surroundings. Some dogs (like mine) majorly freak out when another dog approaches them, so we much appreciate other people keeping their dogs under control. Kiri koli fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Nov 12, 2011 |
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Nov 12, 2011 22:44
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bonestructure posted:My recall is flimsy in the extreme, point taken. I would definitely use her normal leash for road walking and close control, but any time on your regular walk when you would usually let her off leash, switch leash to the 40 foot one. One thing; I am not used to dogparks but I think having her on the 40ft lead in that situation would be a bad idea; others would be able to advise better. Dogs are very location dependent when it comes to learning, and they do not easily extrapolate what they have learnt in one environment (coming on command in the house and yard) to a different environment. When your the dog is on the long line, assume she knows nothing and go right back to how you would have begun training recall with a young puppy. Again, alifeless can give you more tips on particular techniques you can try, but the key is that it needs to be MORE fun and reinforcing for her to be interacting with you at your feet than running free/playing with other dogs. That means a looooooooot of treats, praise and games with toys when she makes the right kinds of decisions. As a general point; one major mistake dog owners make is to only attempt to recall their dog at the end of a play session so that they can put their leash on and go home. With my dogs I always make a point of calling them over to me repeatedly when we play off lead, taking their collar, clipping the lead on and off, giving them a treat and making a huge fuss of them - then letting them off to play again. That way, they never know which is the 'all done, let's go home!' recall and don't try to play keepaway when they see me getting the leash out. If you or anyone reading this is ever training a young puppy, this is a great way to lay the foundation for a reliable recall, because getting the leash put on becomes no big deal (fun, in fact, because they get treats!)
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Nov 12, 2011 22:49
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Thank you so much, notsoape and Kiri koli. I wasn't joking when I said I was at my wit's end, I am so thankful to have gotten some good advice, I was just tearing my hair out trying to figure out what I could do about this. When Biscuit and I work on "come here" it's while we're playing and interacting, whether it's in the back yard or at the dog park. I'll randomly call Biscuit to me, then when she comes I praise her effusively, pet her and cuddle her, then let her go to keep playing. What I haven't done is what you both brought up, which is to actually clip the leash on her, then release it and praise her and let her keep playing. I think that's the key. It seems to me that the leash is the sticking point, because when she sees it come out she knows playtime's over and that's a huge negative to her. Another issue is that Biscuit is a rescue dog, and from her history and her behavior when I first got her I think she was only ever called over to a person to be beaten. So now she's getting past that, but she's still terrified of certain objects like flyswatters, brooms, plastic bags, sticks, etc, and she has a certain mental resistance to coming when called because in the back of her mind she thinks the only reason why you would want her to come is to get her within grabbing distance to punish her. Both of you have given me some really excellent pointers, thank you so much! At least now I feel like I can formulate a plan to start working with her on this. The books I read were the Cesar Millan books, but the last thing I want to do is to try to dominate or frighten Biscuit, she's already had plenty of that in her short life. This points me in another and much more positive direction for changing her behavior, huge thanks to both of you. bonestructure fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Nov 12, 2011 |
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Nov 12, 2011 23:49
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Cesar Milan books? Ew, definitely throw them out. There are a ton of good books out there that will teach you how your dog thinks and how you can effectively communicate with her in a positive, fun way with none of this dominance crap. I would recommend getting your hands on The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson as a must read. It's a great primer on positive reinforcement training, why it works, and how to set your dog up for success. I imagine it's a lot of stuff you already know, but it's still a great read. http://www.amazon.com/Culture-Clash-Revolutionary-Understanding-Relationship/dp/1888047054/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1
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Nov 13, 2011 00:20
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Thanks! I've ordered that book and also The Other End of the Leash. As minor repayment, here are some photos I took a moment ago of Biscuit and her blankie. She loves that blankie.   
bonestructure fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Nov 20, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 01:22
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Has anyone here read Patricia McConnell's booklet 'How to be the Leader of the Pack ... And have your Dog Love You for it!'? I just read it and it's kind of weird. There are aspects of it that are related to NILIF, such as petting after asking for obedience behaviours, but there's a lot of strange dominance stuff in there - body block dogs that want petting, don't let your dog sleep on the bed, have your dog lie down for half an hour ish a day and repeatedly body block/correct if they try to break the stay, don't let dogs on furniture period, 'be thoughtful about playing tug of war' and some other stuff. She does advocate against hard stares and alpha rolls but it kind of seems like an R+ ish version of dominance theory, with the same justifications of it to keep 'status seeking' dogs in line. It's a little odd.
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Nov 13, 2011 10:58
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It's fifteen years old, though.
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Nov 13, 2011 14:26
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