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Dante posted:this is dumb and wrong and certain techniques being more high-percentage is tautologically true in every sport please stop this nonsense I've already explained numerous times why "high percentage" is stupid so just take that as word now. Everything done right at the right time is 100%
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Nov 10, 2011 23:33
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But not everything is done right at the right time so...
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Nov 10, 2011 23:38
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Who Gotch Ya posted:I've already explained numerous times why "high percentage" is stupid so just take that as word now. Dante fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Nov 11, 2011 |
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Nov 11, 2011 04:19
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Dante posted:No it's not. Something being low percentage doesn't mean it's physically impossible it means that due to variety of factors (like setup time, ease of counters, positional control etc) you're on average going to have a lower success ratio. Similarly something being high percentage does not mean it's an invincible sequence of moves. Even if you remove the opponent from the question there are techniques that are far more efficient than others. In BJJ like in every other sport you have converged on a number of main positional postures and ways to transition in and out of them that are optimal, this is why high jumpers do the fosbury flop instead of straddle jumping like before. So for instance the reason you do the rear-naked choke instead of just grabbing around his throat with your hand and squeezing is because the RNC is a much more powerful choke and because it's much harder to defend. I was kind of thinking along these lines, there's no way a gogoplata is as high percentage as a triangle choke.
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Nov 11, 2011 05:06
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1st AD posted:But not everything is done right at the right time so... That's completely relative to the person performing the move and how/why/when they're performing it. It's not the move's fault. BlindSite posted:I was kind of thinking along these lines, there's no way a gogoplata is as high percentage as a triangle choke. If you took the amount of times I've perfectly attempted a gogoplata compared to the amount of times I've finished a gogoplata, and took the amount of times I've perfectly attempted a triangle choke compared to the amount of times I've finished a triangle choke, I'd say the percentage would probably be about the same. It might even be higher for the gogo. And even if it was lower for the gogo, that doesn't mean the gogo itself is lower percentage overall. It's not possible to say that every person ever doing one move will have a lower percentage of success than a different move. There are too many factors and variables. This is not a game of percentages. Do what works for you and what you enjoy.
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Nov 11, 2011 06:04
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Who Gotch Ya posted:That's completely relative to the person performing the move and how/why/when they're performing it. It's not the move's fault. You're being overly pedantic. A high percentage technique is one where there are fewer confounding factors that would cause you to perform it imperfectly. A low percentage move is one where there are more confounding factors that would cause you perform it imperfectly. An RNC is not higher percentage than a gogoplata because a perfectly performed RNC makes a guy "more choked" than a perfectly preformed gogoplata or something. It's higher percentage because it's harder to gently caress up an RNC, it's easier to set up an RNC, and it's harder to defend an RNC. A high-percentage move is one that the collective group of BJJ practitioners have a high success rate performing, not what the magic glow in the dark headscissors master has practiced for hours on end so that his game can be hipper than everyone else's.
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Nov 11, 2011 06:26
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mobn posted:glow in the dark Mobn how tan are you yourself?
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Nov 11, 2011 06:56
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mobn posted:An RNC is not higher percentage than a gogoplata because a perfectly performed RNC makes a guy "more choked" than a perfectly preformed gogoplata or something. It's higher percentage because it's harder to gently caress up an RNC, it's easier to set up an RNC, and it's harder to defend an RNC. I disagree. It's way easier for me to gently caress up an RNC than a gogo. The positioning required for an RNC is much harder for me to obtain and maintain than the positioning for a gogo. More people know RNC defense than gogo defense. And I would still never say some bullshit like "this one move is higher percentage than this other one".
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Nov 11, 2011 07:13
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Who Gotch Ya posted:I disagree. It's way easier for me to gently caress up an RNC than a gogo. The positioning required for an RNC is much harder for me to obtain and maintain than the positioning for a gogo. More people know RNC defense than gogo defense. And I would still never say some bullshit like "this one move is higher percentage than this other one". that may be true for you, possibly because you spend all your time on gogoplatas? but "fact remains" that for the vast majority of people what mobn is saying seems to be correct
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Nov 11, 2011 09:50
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How many times a week do you BJJ guys typically train? My club, in Sweden, has classes 3 times a week in the evenings, morning training 4 days a week and one class on saturdays. I try to train BJJ about 5 times a week. I'm curious what it's like at other schools, especially in the States.
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Nov 11, 2011 11:59
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beadgc posted:How many times a week do you BJJ guys typically train? My club, in Sweden, has classes 3 times a week in the evenings, morning training 4 days a week and one class on saturdays. I try to train BJJ about 5 times a week. I aim for 2-3 but I work full time and also do muay thai and a normal gym routine, so its near impossible to train more than that for me.
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Nov 11, 2011 12:50
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the periodic fable posted:that may be true for you, possibly because you spend all your time on gogoplatas? but "fact remains" that for the vast majority of people what mobn is saying seems to be correct I've been formally instructed on RNCs. I've never been formally instructed on gogoplatas. Different moves work better/worse for different people. You can't blanket a move as "low percentage" because the people doing moves are constantly changing. When a new child is born you can't say "this kid is gonna have to do RNCs 'cause that's higher percentage than gogoplatas". You don't know what their style, body and ability will be like. Example: The Cody Mackenzie style of guillotine would be very low percentage for Mark Coleman. Whereas the far side arm triangle is 100% for Mark Coleman and probably 0% for Cody Mackenzie. Who Gotch Ya fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Nov 11, 2011 |
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Nov 11, 2011 13:28
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i'm not saying anybody HAS to do anything, but i still feel you're being pedantic about the whole thing, or we're misunderstanding each other. what does it matter what you've been formally instructed on, if you spend a great amount of time on the gogoplata then obviously you will become proficient at it and if you're STILL loving up rear-naked chokes then i would say that obviously you aren't practising them much. i don't see what your personal individual skill at one thing or another has to do with the general sense that there are some techniques that are easier (high-percentage if you will) than others i would hesitate to draw parallels between grappling and striking but wouldn't you say a straight right is a more high-percentage technique than a spinning back kick? one is easy to learn, easy to do, involves few stages whereas the other is hard and requires more component moves to pull off. are you still disagreeing with the idea that some techniques are much easier to learn the basics of and apply in practice than others? or are we talking about too many things at once. because this is my definition of that expression, which is an expression and not an inviolable law on top of this there is of course the factor you mention where body types play a difference but i would say that's a known quantity already and i don't think anybody would say that the triangle is still a "high-percentage move" for a person with short but stocky legs. in my opinion this doesn't detract from the idea that the triangle is easy to teach, easy to learn, easy to apply in practice and to finish, in other words a high-percentage technique (something many people can learn and not gently caress up)
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Nov 11, 2011 15:38
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Haha why are you guys actually engaging him in this argument? He does this stupid recursive pedantry all the time and its just an excuse to talk about the badass low-percentage wrestling moves he learned, which ARENT low percentage when HE does them 
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Nov 11, 2011 16:04
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I would say the number of finishes in high level grappling represents a pretty good pool of data. you see more finishes there from certain moves than others. If everything was equally high percentage, I think you'd see a more even spread, especially if the more novel submissions worked equally well since they would have surprise working in their favor.
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Nov 11, 2011 16:13
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Xguard86 posted:I would say the number of finishes in high level grappling represents a pretty good pool of data. you see more finishes there from certain moves than others. Everyone intuitively understands this already, its just Cortex bomb being a jerkoff
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Nov 11, 2011 16:16
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the periodic fable posted:i'm not saying anybody HAS to do anything, but i still feel you're being pedantic about the whole thing, or we're misunderstanding each other. Spitting on a guy is easier than RNCing him. Does that mean spitting on a guy has a higher finish percentage than an RNC? Ease has nothing to do with this. I would argue that there are just as many, if not more technical aspects to completing an RNC or a triangle choke compared to finishing an omoplata or a gogoplata. You learn the technical aspects of what you need to do, you work on doing them, and then you do them. the periodic fable posted:i would hesitate to draw parallels between grappling and striking but wouldn't you say a straight right is a more high-percentage technique than a spinning back kick? one is easy to learn, easy to do, involves few stages whereas the other is hard and requires more component moves to pull off. How many straight rights get thrown and completely miss or don't knock a guy out compared to the amount of spinning back kicks that get thrown and completely miss or don't knock a guy out? You don't have the numbers so you can't put a percentage value on it. Xguard86 posted:I would say the number of finishes in high level grappling represents a pretty good pool of data. you see more finishes there from certain moves than others. Ok so there are numerically more armlock finishes than gogoplata finishes by volume, but there are more armlocks attempted than gogoplatas attempted. Where's the stat guy to watch every match ever and see what the exact percentage is of each move being finished after being attempted properly by a proficient grappler? I don't think he's gonna be able to do that so you can't say for sure that one move has a higher finish percentage than another. I'm not saying "everything is equally high percentage", I'm saying the very concept of "high percentage moves" is flawed and unproven by the very thing you're talking about, percentages.
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Nov 11, 2011 16:43
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The very concept of things being likely is flawed. Thank you for the enlightening expose on the Classical Theory of Probability
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Nov 11, 2011 16:57
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You want to talk numbers, show me the numbers. You don't have numbers, don't talk about numbers.
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Nov 11, 2011 16:59
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Who Gotch Ya posted:You want to talk numbers, show me the numbers. You don't have numbers, don't talk about numbers. The same goes for you, and you're the only one who always gets worked up about things being innocuously deemed 'high percentage moves'. When you have some Hard Scientific Data proving somehow that the Rings of Saturn or whatever gay moves you like are as high percentage as an RNC then we can have this discussion
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Nov 11, 2011 17:03
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Something being high percentage can reasonably only be measured in relation to the number of attempts of the same move. Something can subjectively be more or less complicated, but as cortx pointed out, that is wholly dependent on the executioner - it just so happens that armbars apparently are simpler to do for most people. This really doesn't equal them being a more high percentage move.
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Nov 11, 2011 17:06
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nemoulette posted:Something being high percentage can reasonably only be measured in relation to the number of attempts of the same move. Something can subjectively be more or less complicated, but as cortx pointed out, that is wholly dependent on the executioner. Sometimes people don't attempt certain moves often, because they're less likely to work 
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Nov 11, 2011 17:07
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nemoulette posted:Something being high percentage can reasonably only be measured in relation to the number of attempts of the same move. Something can subjectively be more or less complicated, but as cortx pointed out, that is wholly dependent on the executioner - it just so happens that armbars apparently are simpler to do for most people. This really doesn't equal them being a more high percentage move. Word this is what I'm saying without me being a dick
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Nov 11, 2011 17:10
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james earl pwns posted:Sometimes people don't attempt certain moves often, because they're less likely to work
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Nov 11, 2011 17:10
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james earl pwns posted:The same goes for you, and you're the only one who always gets worked up about things being innocuously deemed 'high percentage moves'. When you have some Hard Scientific Data proving somehow that the Rings of Saturn or whatever gay moves you like are as high percentage as an RNC then we can have this discussion Ok this is me showing you the lack of numbers and percentages:
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Nov 11, 2011 17:11
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I, for whatever reason, can't finish triangles to save my life, I usually switch to an armbar or an omoplata or whatever. When will you start to draw the conclusion that a triangle is a low-percentage move? When 10,000 people have the same problem? When we stop seeing triangles in ADCC? The only somewhat measurable variable is the skill of the grappler.
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Nov 11, 2011 17:13
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lol@ glow in the dark head scissor master. So true. Dont feed the trolls yall.
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Nov 11, 2011 17:33
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I'll try to make it easier to understand for the pedantic aspergers crew: When your coach says "Hey Cortxbomb. Stop dicking around with that gay flying omoplata poo poo and learn how to do a proper RNC for god's sake. It's a much higher percentage move" he is right. The amount of times you'll find yourself in a position to perform a RNC is far greater than the amount of opportunities youll have to try a flying omoplata, no matter how perfect your technique is. This is why you see tons of RNC finishes in competition and not very many flying omoplatas. No matter how much the game 'evolves', itll never turn into duelling flying omoplatas. Perfecting your RNC is a better way to spend your time than attempting to perfect some stupid submission that you'll rarely if ever be in a position to actually pull off Your "anything done with perfect skill is 100% effective" shtick is what every lovely TMA guy says to defend their art. Why don't you go train strip mall aikido since the cool moves they do are all equally high percentage as an armbar, as long as you can do it with perfection? Go ask any blackbelt if a RNC is a higher percentage move than a flying headscissors, and theyll say yes and probably laugh at you for asking such a moronic question because they're using common sense and not being pedantic nerds about the definition of probability
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Nov 11, 2011 17:41
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TKO victory.
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Nov 11, 2011 17:43
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james earl pwns posted:
Go ask a blackbelt if it's ok to rape girls and apparently a bunch of them will tell you it's ok. Black belts aren't right about everything.
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Nov 11, 2011 18:18
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Who Gotch Ya posted:Go ask a blackbelt if it's ok to rape girls and apparently a bunch of them will tell you it's ok. Black belts aren't right about everything. Yeah, but they tend to be right about grappling, which is the point -- around brown belt level most people are cured of the "Looking up low percentage moves on Youtube and practicing them in my apartment to impress my nerd friends" affliction that seems to exclusively affect blue belt "Powder" stunt doubles
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Nov 11, 2011 18:24
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When I attempt to finish an omoplata, I don't have to roll dice to see if it works. There isn't a set chance that it will work. If I do it right and prevent the defense, it's going to work. You can't say that it will just magically fail because more people finish choke sleepers than omoplatas.
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Nov 11, 2011 18:27
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From reading these definitions it seems like a lot of people associate "high percentage" with "easy." This makes sense too (speaking as a technical relativist), because if a technique is easy to learn/conceptualize/incorporate into one's gameplan, it'll be used often by a wide variety of people, and we'll see more submissions from it than other more esoteric subs because people don't know the weirder techniques as well and don't use them as often. However, I want to dispute the opinion that "easy" is "better." I think in this environment where grapplers tend to burn bright and short (if you're past 30 you'd better have a great tournament record or no one's gonna give a @%#@ what you can do) we like "easy" moves because we can learn them fast. But it's important to remember that there are some things that just can't be learned quickly- we see in judo that the real technical mindset doesn't come about until someone's about a decade into the art, which usually puts them past their tournament 'prime.'
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Nov 11, 2011 21:19
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Ridleys Revenge posted:From reading these definitions it seems like a lot of people associate "high percentage" with "easy." This makes sense too (speaking as a technical relativist), because if a technique is easy to learn/conceptualize/incorporate into one's gameplan, it'll be used often by a wide variety of people, and we'll see more submissions from it than other more esoteric subs because people don't know the weirder techniques as well and don't use them as often. Agreed, this is why its dishonorable for people to learn so-called "easy" or "effective" moves such as a double leg and RNC when they could be studying chi manipulation and be pressure pointing people to death within 50 years of practice
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Nov 11, 2011 21:23
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Who Gotch Ya posted:When I attempt to finish an omoplata, I don't have to roll dice to see if it works. There isn't a set chance that it will work. If I do it right and prevent the defense, it's going to work. No you don't roll dice, no it won't magically fail. However, a technically proficient grappler fighting another technically proficient grappler is more likely to perform an armbar right and prevent the defense than they are to do the same with a pentagram choke, therefore making it "higher percentage". If you're really going to get your gi in that big of a twist over it, just mentally substitute "high percentage" with "more commonly completed".
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Nov 11, 2011 21:42
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nemoulette posted:Yeah but the likeliness of them working is a matter of skill of whoever tries to do them. You can argue all day that there's some sort of objective measure of difficulty where, let's say, an achilles lock is easier than a kneebar or something, but it will be an exercise in futility. Who Gotch Ya posted:When I attempt to finish an omoplata, I don't have to roll dice to see if it works. There isn't a set chance that it will work. If I do it right and prevent the defense, it's going to work. Dante fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Nov 11, 2011 |
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Nov 11, 2011 21:48
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Ridleys Revenge posted:From reading these definitions it seems like a lot of people associate "high percentage" with "easy." This makes sense too (speaking as a technical relativist), because if a technique is easy to learn/conceptualize/incorporate into one's gameplan, it'll be used often by a wide variety of people, and we'll see more submissions from it than other more esoteric subs because people don't know the weirder techniques as well and don't use them as often. I don't necessarily agree with this.I think berimbolo and Reverse De La Riva to the back are high percentage. Neither of those techniques are "basic" and frankly they aren't super easy, but they work consistently at the highest levels for guys of all sizes.
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Nov 11, 2011 22:10
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Hm, that's an interesting point, I'd agree that it seems like there's an aspect of consistency the term 'high percentage' in addition to the ease of use/learning. The berimbolo thing was totally new to me btw and awesome so thanks for that
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Nov 11, 2011 23:01
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dokomoy posted:I don't necessarily agree with this.I think berimbolo and Reverse De La Riva to the back are high percentage. Neither of those techniques are "basic" and frankly they aren't super easy, but they work consistently at the highest levels for guys of all sizes. Exactly, and the reverse is true that "easy" things like a straight up rape choke aren't high percentage despite being extremely easy to "perfect", because they just aren't effective against a resisting opponent You could replace the term "high percentage" with "commonly completed" like Big Mobn suggests above, except every normal person already intuitively knows what is meant by high percentage and it wouldnt clarify anything for anyone other than nerds who like bicker about dumb crap
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Nov 11, 2011 23:04
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Oh so now it's about moves being common? Is common better? Is rhyming party with bacardi the most effective rhyme because millions of rappers have done it? Or if it's about probability, you can't say an RNC is more probable to finish than a gogoplata. Life doesn't work that way. How is controlling a guy and putting my arm under his neck any more probable than controlling a guy and putting my shin under his neck? If I can control him I can control him and if I can get part of my body wrapped around his throat I can choke him. Why would anybody try to put severe limits on a nearly limitless art?
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Nov 11, 2011 23:28
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