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Who Gotch Ya posted:
Rhymes are subjective, Rafael Mendes berimboloing you isn't.
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Nov 11, 2011 23:38
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| # ? May 15, 2024 20:22 |
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once again, just because you can hit a certain submission with regularity doesn't make it a "high percentage move" you moron
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Nov 11, 2011 23:46
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henkman posted:once again, just because you can hit a certain submission with regularity doesn't make it a "high percentage move" you moron Are you talking to me or the people saying things are high percentage? I'm not saying a gogo is high percentage, I'm saying NOTHING is ANY percentage because putting a probability or percentage on something as subjective as one man finishing another with any technique is loving impossible and ridiculous.
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Nov 11, 2011 23:53
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Who Gotch Ya posted:Go ask a blackbelt if it's ok to rape girls and apparently a bunch of them will tell you it's ok. wait wait go back what
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Nov 11, 2011 23:54
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CBX you're a cool guy and I like your crazy moves, but you're really not winning this debate. There a ton of logical fallacies and pedantic smoke screens but not much else. Just my pov as an audience member
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Nov 12, 2011 00:18
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Who Gotch Ya posted:Are you talking to me or the people saying things are high percentage? choking with a RNC from backmount is much more effective and higher percentage than grabbing his throat with your hand due to simple body mechanics and anyone is able to understand this, you can continue to deny this basic fact in your head but please stop making GBS threads up the thread
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Nov 12, 2011 00:18
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Dante posted:choking with a RNC from backmount is much more effective and higher percentage than grabbing his throat with your hand due to simple body mechanics and anyone is able to understand this, you can continue to deny this basic fact in your head but please stop making GBS threads up the thread "just grabbing his throat" is a stupid move. A carotid gogoplata from the back position is not a stupid move, it's an awesome one, and just as valid as choking a guy with your arms if you do it right with the proper control.
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Nov 12, 2011 00:25
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Who Gotch Ya posted:"just grabbing his throat" is a stupid move. A carotid gogoplata from the back position is not a stupid move, it's an awesome one, and just as valid as choking a guy with your arms if you do it right with the proper control. Oh, so now there aren't "low percentage moves" but there are "stupid moves"?
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Nov 12, 2011 00:29
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Who Gotch Ya posted:"just grabbing his throat" is a stupid move. A carotid gogoplata from the back position is not a stupid move, it's an awesome one, and just as valid as choking a guy with your arms if you do it right with the proper control. oh my, why is it a stupid move? Because it's inefficient in terms of leverage and easily countered? In comparison to what? The other more efficient and hard to defend chokes available from the same position like the RNC? At this point this is just about you and your hangsup about the gogoplata
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Nov 12, 2011 00:31
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Dante posted:oh my, why is it a stupid move? Because it's inefficient in terms of leverage and easily countered? In comparison to what? The other more efficient and hard to defend chokes available from the same position like the RNC? It's stupid 'cause grabbing a guys throat isn't technical or impressive. A rear naked choke and a gogoplata are both technical and impressive and both equally viable as submissions. I'm just using the gogo as an example because that's the "strange magical complicated never gonna loving work on a regular basis completely outer space bullshit" move that most people go to when they think "low percentage". The omoplata is just as good of an example.
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Nov 12, 2011 00:44
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I really don't understand this debate. All techniques have a place in BJJ. Some techniques have more places (ie more setups, easier setups, more positions executable from, etc). I think high percentage is abit of a misnomer what they really mean is having 'more places in BJJ'. I think it is fair to say a technique like a kimura, which you can hit from almost everywhere, is worth more time investment and consideration than a technique like a gogoplata. What it comes down to is you only have so much time to train and it is smarter to invest that time in something 'high percentage' rather than something 'low percentage' (if you care about becoming a better grappler). In these terms, I think its pretty obvious why people don't recommend wasting time on things like gogoplatas or twisters.
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Nov 12, 2011 01:11
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westcoaster posted:I really don't understand this debate. You can hit a Kimura from half guard (top), half guard (bottom), side mount, guard, and I guess from mount even though it's not the best position. That's 5. Am I missing any? Maybe north/south but you'd probably wind up going more sideways anyway to get a better angle at it. You can hit a gogo from guard, mount, off an armbar, from the back. That's 4. Oh my god one more position for the Kimura it's so much more viable because of that  I'm being generous and not including things like "gogo from cobra clutch" which for me has always been very "high percentage".I have better flexibility than arm strength. The gogo works better for me than the Kimura. Most people have better arm strength than flexibility. The Kimura works better for them than the gogo. That doesn't mean the gogo itself, as a move, is definitively less viable than the Kimura, or worth less time. "worth less time" is ridiculous. Grappling as a whole is worth your time. Do with it what you want but you can't say one move is universally worth more time than any other. You should be grappling for the rest of your life, there's plenty of time.
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Nov 12, 2011 01:32
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I thought I was being reasonable and giving you a bit of an olive branch considering the 5 or so people ripping on you. I should of realized that I'm dealing with either an idiot or a troll. The facts are there are some techniques and positions worth practicing more than others if you want to be a good grappler. If you can't see why it is better to invest your term on reasonable techniques or positions than on crazy things like gogoplatas I don't know what to tell you. Again, I'm not saying that exotic techniques are useless and shouldn't be trained, just that it is a smarter time investment not to focus entirely on them. And yes it is possible to categorize techniques as low and high percentage. Also, you talk about having lots of time to spend on BJJ and you have your entire life. Thats true, but I have years to learn the exotic things whereas if I want to get better in the short term it is better to focus on high percentage moves.
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Nov 12, 2011 01:48
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westcoaster posted:I thought I was being reasonable and giving you a bit of an olive branch considering the 5 or so people ripping on you. I should of realized that I'm dealing with either an idiot or a troll. Remember, at one point the triangle choke was exotic and unheard of.
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Nov 12, 2011 01:54
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Who Gotch Ya posted:I have better flexibility than arm strength. The gogo works better for me than the Kimura. Most people have better arm strength than flexibility. The Kimura works better for them than the gogo. If you're using arm strength to finish kimuras, you're pretty lovely at kimuras.
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Nov 12, 2011 01:56
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fatherdog posted:If you're using arm strength to finish kimuras, you're pretty lovely at kimuras. I am pretty lovely at Kimuras. I don't really like them. They're not pretty enough for me.
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Nov 12, 2011 01:56
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It might be a good idea to practice kimuras they are very high percentage.
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Nov 12, 2011 02:25
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westcoaster posted:It might be a good idea to practice kimuras they are very high percentage. Yeah 100% of the time they lead to me doing something else
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Nov 12, 2011 02:44
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Are you saing you are incapable of finishing a kimura?
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Nov 12, 2011 03:57
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He expended too much energy and got tired
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Who Gotch Ya posted:Or if it's about probability, you can't say an RNC is more probable to finish than a gogoplata. Life doesn't work that way. I don't know poo poo but I'd say this is your problem right here. If he's a really high level grappler, you can't control him well enough to choke him with a gogo or finish an omoplata. I believe this because better grapplers than you have tried really hard and they can't do it. The fact that there's never been an omoplata or a gogoplata finished in the UFC doesn't make you think that just maybe those techniques are easier to escape than a properly executed RNC or armbar? Sure, every so often just the right opportunity might present itself when an omoplata is the perfect move to go for and in those specific moments a properly executed omoplata will work 100% of the time. Either those moments present themselves in an incredibly LOW PERCENTAGE of fights, or you are just way better at omoplatas than any grappler who has ever competed in the UFC. Nothing personal, but I'm more inclined to believe option A.
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Nov 12, 2011 04:08
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Clearly Shogun is a terrible grappler if he is incapable of finishing an omoplata against Mark Coleman.
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Nov 12, 2011 04:38
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I think I'm just on a higher plane of awareness than some of you close-minded cats Every move I do is  high percentageDangersim posted:Are you saing you are incapable of finishing a kimura? I'm saying it's boring and I'd rather do a different move. 1st AD posted:Clearly Shogun is a terrible grappler if he is incapable of finishing an omoplata against Mark Coleman. [img-omopicnic] Who Gotch Ya fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Nov 12, 2011 |
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Nov 12, 2011 04:41
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Look I find the idea of eschewing a technique because it isn't exciting enough somewhat silly, and I'm sure someone else is about to say the same except with the word retarded in there somewhere but at this point it seems like this is just a situation where different people are looking to get different things out of the sport and there is no volume of terrible posts fter which that will change. Personally I think kimuras own because I like anything that can allow me to move from a guard to the back but I very rarely finish them. I also do sometimes pick a flashy option because that poo poo is fun. What I am really saying here is stop talking about this already.
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Nov 12, 2011 05:12
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fatherdog posted:If you're using arm strength to finish kimuras, you're pretty lovely at kimuras. Can someone elaborate on this? I thought kimuras were 90% about strength. Once you have the grip and position its not really using leverage in the same way an arm bar is. Or maybe it is, what the gently caress do I know. I'll ask here rather than googling it and reading yahoo answers.
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Nov 12, 2011 07:06
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Nierbo posted:Can someone elaborate on this? I thought kimuras were 90% about strength. Once you have the grip and position its not really using leverage in the same way an arm bar is. Or maybe it is, what the gently caress do I know. I'll ask here rather than googling it and reading yahoo answers. I'm no authority, but I finish kimuras from guard by locking up the figure four, shrimping my hips back a bit so I'm kinda perpendicular to the guy on top, then rolling/leaning with my weight toward his head while keeping his hand as tight to his back as I can. Kimuras are the only thing I can finish off of my back with anything resembling consistency, but that could easily be the effect of a big fat guy training with smaller opponents.
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Nov 12, 2011 07:19
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Is this a troll or something? I think everyone realizes that there are certain techniques that are high percentage (Kimura, RNC, Triangle etc), certain techniques that are lower (middle) percentage but useful (gogoplata...) and then a bunch of stuff that's just low percent, like trying to get people so they have you in back control and then reaching back and chocking them with your elbow. The middle percentage stuff can kind of become high percent if you train it a bunch and other people aren't expecting it (the secret weapon effect), but as soon as people know to work it into their training rotation it becomes a lot less useful.
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Nov 12, 2011 07:34
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Nierbo posted:Can someone elaborate on this? I thought kimuras were 90% about strength. Once you have the grip and position its not really using leverage in the same way an arm bar is. Or maybe it is, what the gently caress do I know. I'll ask here rather than googling it and reading yahoo answers. Hold the arm close to your body, like right on your chest, and rotate your entire body to finish it. You should only need to use your arms to secure your opponents arm and the rest is your core strength.
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Nov 12, 2011 07:49
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Nierbo posted:Can someone elaborate on this? I thought kimuras were 90% about strength. Once you have the grip and position its not really using leverage in the same way an arm bar is. Or maybe it is, what the gently caress do I know. I'll ask here rather than googling it and reading yahoo answers. westcoaster posted:Hold the arm close to your body, like right on your chest, and rotate your entire body to finish it. You should only need to use your arms to secure your opponents arm and the rest is your core strength. STORY TIME: Harris, one of the 12 first american black belts, used to roll with 50-60 people after seminars in the early days to build his reputation since he was old before the major tournaments got started outside of brazil. Invariably there would be some 20 year old massive wrestlers strategically waiting at the end of the queue who would want another roll if they got submitted fast. Harris, being relatively old and not recovering as fast, would get them in a kimura and put their hand in the middle of their back then hold them there for 3-4 minutes while they huffed and puffed and burned themselves out trying to escape the position before easily submitting them. For some reason almost no one teaches how to finish the kimura correctly from the guard, which is why people keep struggling so much against big strong guys. Dante fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Nov 12, 2011 |
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Nov 12, 2011 12:24
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CortX is never going to be convinced, I don't know why people bother engaging with him on this stuff. Every time it happens there's a storm of pointless posts.
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Nov 12, 2011 16:07
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Thanks everyone.
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Nov 13, 2011 00:46
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Beaten multiple times, but yeah, once you actually get the grip locked, you shouldn't even be moving your arms, let alone using arm strength. Keep your elbows against your ribs and turn your body, the strength of your body moving is way stronger than your arms. In real life you see guys pushing with the arms sometimes, sometimes it's because they're just bad and don't know any better,and sometimes it's because they're turning with their body AND pushing as hard as they can with their arms because it's a competition and they're really close to finishing so they throw everything into it.
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Nov 13, 2011 00:50
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My favorite kimura-thing is the pass around the head defense and the fact that it can either lead to the dude on the bottom getting arm barred or the guy on the top getting his back taken. This I like very much. edit: Also I like using a kimura grip for control and to set up transitions from the back.
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Nov 13, 2011 01:02
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Grab Your Foot! posted:
That is so cool. In your experience is it a high percenta...I mean do you pull it off often? Do you intentionally let your opponent pass or is it a reaction to a pass? A year or so ago I started doing nothing but look for the kimura. It's everywhere!
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Nov 13, 2011 01:13
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huh posted:That is so cool. I do a fair amount but partially because it's my first look off of a kimura and I tend to use kimuras as a pass defense. If you lock up a kimura from bottom side control or a loose half guard people will tend to look to get to the armbar counter and if you can keep your arms extended as they do you can either just sweep with it or sweep into back control. So yeah, more of a pass reaction for me, but most of my game is built around getting to the back so it fits into my game really well.
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Nov 13, 2011 01:24
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Grab Your Foot! posted:... most of my game is built around getting to the back so it fits into my game really well. That's basically all I do now too. This'll fit in really well.
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Nov 13, 2011 02:59
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Went to my first Judo tournament ever yesterday, Finished 2nd in my pool and 3rd in my division (green-blue belts under 73kg) Crossposting from the martial arts thread because I can Xpost : Just finished uploading them. Funny thing is I usually am best a ground work but did all the worst thing ever in ground work at the comp haha. I'm the guy with the long hair and tape all over his injuries. My first fight : I was loving stressed and did nothing except suck and lose the fight. http://www.youtube.com/user/KingColliwog#p/a/u/2/y2Mz0PQI6Js My second fight : I felt better and it was fun. Established my grips the way I wanted. Missed a couple of opportunities, but did a loosy kouchi that worked pretty well. http://www.youtube.com/user/KingColliwog#p/a/u/2/_eyRemWu1D0 My third fight : Went through the whole 3 mins. Did many horrible things but ended up winning by points (I'm really passive in the last minute because I was ok with just keeping the point advantage). Had the guy in a hold but when the judge said that the timer was starting I thought he said mate so I let the guy go like an idiot! If the guy had any ground work skill I would have lost on many occasion. There's no word to describe how much I was gassing out during this fight. http://www.youtube.com/user/KingColliwog#p/a/u/0/1G19ELyNa68 My fourth fight : Didn't know I was supposed to fight until like 1 min before the fight so I wasn't into it (after my pool was over, I thought it was done but there was enough people in my weight class to make some semi-finals and since I was 2nd best in my pool I was to fight against the winner of the other pool). Hurt my elbow when I posted my arm during that first "throw" where I spin around. Pretty happy with my escape from side control and from mount. Bonus point for one of the girls in my club being loving energetic in the corner all fight long hahaha http://www.youtube.com/user/KingColliwog#p/a/u/0/JKNPX3GnnOI The two guys I lost again were both quite a bit stronger and more experienced than me so that's cool too. edit : watching the videos I noticed that wow... I almost only did ko ouchi gari the whole comp :|. Also, I really like that small Ko uchi to Ouchi gari combo in the second video.
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Nov 14, 2011 17:19
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I love using kimuras to bully people around into the position you want them in. It's like leading a dog around by the collar. YOU ARE GOING TO SIDEMOUNT NOW. NOW YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE ME YOUR BACK. GOOD DOG Also here is relevant thing to all the horseshit on the last two pages.   edit: And if you think "High Percentage Submission" means anything other than "Submissions that you are more statistically likely to win a competition with", you're confusing terms. It's not what you feel you like the most personally, or what you're personal favourites are, or what you feel most comfortable with, or what you think is easiest. Mathematics are not subjective. How easy or difficult a move is for you personally is completely irrelevant, but saying "The Rear Naked Choke is a high percentage submission, so you should practice it" is perfectly sound. The number of times you get a submission to work divided by the number of times you've tried that submission is not the percentage. It's impossible to record. At what point of the set-up does a submission become a failed attempt at that submission? You have a head and an arm trapped? You have a head and an arm trapped and your legs are creeping towards a triangle? You've got a triangle locked in and they escape? You think you have it locked in but for some reason it doesn't work? They predict it coming and take measures, in advance, to stop it happening? It's too hard to define a "failed submission" to do anything with it statistically. 02-6611-0142-1 fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Nov 16, 2011 |
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Nov 16, 2011 07:33
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I'm surprised arm triangle isn't higher on that list. I don't follow competitive grappling, so are those stats fairly close to what you'd see in grappling comps?
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Nov 16, 2011 10:23
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:
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Nov 16, 2011 11:56
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Well it hasn't got anything to do with grappling really, it's just the question of whether the universe is deterministic if we know all variables.
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Nov 16, 2011 12:01
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