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It might be an older booklet, but it's been revised fairly recently - my copy is the third edition, published 2007. Maybe it's just the language used to describe things though. I dunno.
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Nov 13, 2011 14:35
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Fraction posted:Has anyone here read Patricia McConnell's booklet 'How to be the Leader of the Pack ... And have your Dog Love You for it!'? That is odd given some of the stuff she normally advocates, but on the other had, I've had vets tell me not to allow my dog on my bed or on the couch too often because he could "begin to think it was his". I've actually had some issues with Bailey getting possessive, possibly resource guardy with my couch, which went away when I started crating him at night. He shares the couch better now (and he's allowed on it when I'm at work), but I don't know how I would feel about body blocks and such.
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Nov 13, 2011 15:57
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bonestructure posted:My recall is flimsy in the extreme, point taken. Here are some links for you: http://www.clickerdogs.com/perfectrecall.htm http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3364451&pagenumber=15#post388578271 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3364451&pagenumber=18#post389639745 (at the bottom of the big post) http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3364451&pagenumber=18#post389664805 The problems people have with recall are often related to one or more of the following points (list is also posted in one of those links):
I would recommend limiting your dog's freedom until you've created another recall behaviour from scratch. Have your dog drag a long leash at the park if you absolutely must let him off leash. And in the mean time you need to choose a new word to mean "come" and start at it from the beginning. "Come" or whatever word you're using no longer means "drop what you're doing and come here" - it probably means something like, "if you're not doing anything more interesting, maybe consider coming here". So pick a new word (here, ici, close, etc) and make it your goal to never have your dog blow you off. You don't avoid the blow offs through force - you create a situation where your dog pretty much doesn't have any other option but to choose to come to you. The choosing is VERY important. Start in a hallway with minimal distractions and start working your word there (maybe ping pong your dog between two people). Then gradually start adding distractions, like a ball on the floor, more distance, call from another room, etc. The vitally important part is that everything you do with recall needs to be the most fantastic thing ever. Your dog needs to LOVE IT. Anyways, all that plus all the good advice notsoape and Kiri Koli posted should get you started. If you have any questions please ask.
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Nov 13, 2011 15:57
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wtftastic posted:That is odd given some of the stuff she normally advocates, but on the other had, I've had vets tell me not to allow my dog on my bed or on the couch too often because he could "begin to think it was his". I've actually had some issues with Bailey getting possessive, possibly resource guardy with my couch, which went away when I started crating him at night. He shares the couch better now (and he's allowed on it when I'm at work), but I don't know how I would feel about body blocks and such. I thought so too; as well as that booklet, I just read her 'The Cautious Canine', which is a pretty awesome starter for reactive dog handlers. I can understand removal of access to certain places/objects if your dog has a history of resource guarding, but the booklet is apparently written for ALL dogs, so that even the most placid of dogs go through the program every now and again. Part of my problem with the booklet, I think, is that it explained most things as I said in terms of dominance theory; like saying that body blocks are the method a higher-ranking dog would use to prevent access to a lower-ranking dog (pretty much paraphrased). But body blocks are just a mild P+ tool so yeah.
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Nov 13, 2011 16:49
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Fraction posted:I thought so too; as well as that booklet, I just read her 'The Cautious Canine', which is a pretty awesome starter for reactive dog handlers. I guess in the scheme of things this seems like it would have a lower chance for harm than Caesar's "just kick the dog, lol" methods. I also don't understand the stay for half an hour or you get punished thing; if the idea is to build a calm, default behavior, then wouldn't you have more success for treating a dog when they're normally at rest than you would causing the dog anxiety over if they've stayed for long enough?
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Nov 13, 2011 17:09
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wtftastic posted:I guess in the scheme of things this seems like it would have a lower chance for harm than Caesar's "just kick the dog, lol" methods. I also don't understand the stay for half an hour or you get punished thing; if the idea is to build a calm, default behavior, then wouldn't you have more success for treating a dog when they're normally at rest than you would causing the dog anxiety over if they've stayed for long enough? Yeah definitely better than Caesar, and at the end of the book she DOES say no alpha rolls which is obviously good. The stay thing: she seemed to suggest very quickly building the dog up to a half hour stay - iirc she said that all but energetic adolescents would be capable of a half hour down-stay from doing a daily stay session, building quickly up. And yeah, raise your criteria, that's cool: but then she goes on to say that if the dog breaks the stay '25 times' in one session, then you correct that 25 times with a body block. But if you're doing it right that should not ever happen 
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Nov 13, 2011 17:13
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Fraction posted:She does advocate against hard stares and alpha rolls but it kind of seems like an R+ ish version of dominance theory, with the same justifications of it to keep 'status seeking' dogs in line. It's a little odd.
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Nov 13, 2011 20:59
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Rixatrix posted:Plenty of clicker trainers would agree with that though. For example Shirley Chong (whose Shirley's Retrieve has been recommended many times in this very thread) outlines a very similar plan in Leading the dance. Do you think that's a holdover from a lot of trainers having started out in dominance backgrounds/so much dominance theory stuff being so popular? quote:Don't allow him to go through doors ahead of you. Don't allow him to go up or down stairs ahead of you. Don't allow him to lead you down hallways. Always position him or yourself so you are leading and he is following. If he's lying down, don't walk around him. Put your feet on the floor and shuffle right through him (note you don't kick the dog, merely push him gently out of the way) - make him think about where you are and what you're doing. whaaaaaaaaat
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Nov 13, 2011 21:10
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Is there a way to convince a dog to enjoy swimming in the ocean? A little background: My mom and dad have a 7 year old mini poodle/golden retriever mix named Ziggy. He loves going to the beach but when he was a little puppy we tried to introduce him to the ocean too quickly (dad is a surfer and my family is pretty beach crazy) and he got tumbled by the waves really badly. Now the little guy is pretty freaked out by the surf  He'll hang out at the beach no problem but won't go swimming or chase his ball into the water. It's not really terribly important that he learns to love the ocean per se, but if he COULD my dad would be the most thrilled dog owner in the world. They've kind of given up by now and don't think he can ever enjoy it, though to be honest they haven't really tried any sort of desensitization with him. Plus it might be a good way to show my parents that yay! Training is fun! and get them more familiar with R+ training. And truth be told, I think my dad might get super into dog training if he sees some cool results. He's pretty dog crazy and Zig is totally his favorite child (seriously my dad does NOT leave the house without Ziggy, it's adorable  ) And well, I'd like to get some practice training before my dog adoption goes through. To avoid PES, here's our adorable little beast  DEEEEERP PS I'd like to avoid the lecture about designer dogs please. I know puppy mills and BYBs are bad, I wasn't living at home when they bought Ziggy and had no say in the matter. In their defense they really didn't know that Zig's breeder was a BYB or even what a BYB breeder is. And unlike most people who get poodle mixes, their motivation wasn't just AWWWWW CUUUUUTE  They've owned a few poodles and a few goldens and are nuts for both breeds and were looking for a dog right when the [whatever]-doodle craze started getting huge in our town, so naturally they were suckered in. Plus my mom is exactly the kind of lady these types of breeder market to. We've talked about it since then and they've decided that they are going to get a rescue for their next dog  E: also any recommendations for good books on dog behaviour? Triangulum fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 22:14
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Triangulum posted:Is there a way to convince a dog to enjoy swimming in the ocean? I'm not sure if it'd be possible, really. Some dogs like it, some dogs just don't. My pup will run into water after her ball, but she's not fussed for it otherwise. My other dog generally won't go near. Something you could try is taking him for a long walk when it's warm (don't try to get him into the water if it's cool out, or he definitely won't like it); get him so he's hot and knackered out. Take him to a quiet part of the beach where there's no or very little tide, and just have him dragging his leash whilst the rest of you calmly play or stand around in the shallow water. He might just get curious enough to move slowly over to investigate, and hopefully after a few times of that could well make the association between the ocean and lovely cooling fun times. Not 100% sure if it'd work, but that's the process I'd try to to go through. Triangulum posted:PS I'd like to avoid the lecture about designer dogs please. I know puppy mills and BYBs are bad, I wasn't living at home when they bought Ziggy and had no say in the matter. In their defense they really didn't know that Zig's breeder was a BYB or even what a BYB breeder is. And unlike most people who get poodle mixes, their motivation wasn't just AWWWWW CUUUUUTE Don't worry, unless you're saying about how you're getting a labradoodle/cavapoop/whatever or refer to your dog with a designer name tag like that, you won't get lectured or whatnot. You can't go back in time and Ziggy looks adorable and is probably an awesome dog! Triangulum posted:E: also any recommendations for good books on dog behaviour? There's a list linked in the OP.
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Nov 13, 2011 23:09
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Fraction posted:Do you think that's a holdover from a lot of trainers having started out in dominance backgrounds/so much dominance theory stuff being so popular? The only one of those things that is really acceptable is the stairs one. My friend's retarded labs always shove their way past people to get down when we're going downstairs. That's just dangerous. :I Especially because they have wooden stairs. But lmao pretty hard at WALK INTO YOUR CHILLED OUT DOG UNTIL IT MOVES OUT OF YOUR WAY.
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Nov 13, 2011 23:28
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Kerfuffle posted:The only one of those things that is really acceptable is the stairs one. My friend's retarded labs always shove their way past people to get down when we're going downstairs. That's just dangerous. :I Especially because they have wooden stairs. Psyche does this to me. She always barrels down the stairs like a rocket ALWAYS on the left side, even if I'm hugging the railing and she has no room. I have to stop and let her go so I don't get tripped. I think she's trying to kill me. I always have to laugh when I hear poo poo like 'don't let your dog walk in front of you!'. If I walk in front of my dog, I can't see what poo poo she's getting into and she crosses behind me constantly and trips me. gently caress that, I'm putting her out front so I can see her.
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Nov 13, 2011 23:36
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Kiri koli posted:gently caress that, I'm putting her out front so I can see her. This is exactly my issue with 'don't let them walk ahead!!!!  'I'd rather Lola walk next to/just in front of, or ahead of, me so I can see exactly what she's doing. If she sees something, I'll know she's seen it before she takes off after it and my arm falls off. I make Lola (and Jess) wait at the front door too but that's just because I don't want them charging the hell out past me and getting all tangled up. It's much easier to have them pause and wait for me to get out before I invite them through too.
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Nov 13, 2011 23:40
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Fraction posted:I make Lola (and Jess) wait at the front door too but that's just because I don't want them charging the hell out past me and getting all tangled up. It's much easier to have them pause and wait for me to get out before I invite them through too. That's a perfectly legitimate NILIF move, not a dominance move. Teaches them that open doors aren't for bolting through either. Psyche also asks for me to open doors by going to sit by them. So many good things to teach your dog that get distorted by stupid dominance crap. No wonder people are confused.
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Nov 13, 2011 23:44
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I have read that Patricia McConnell booklet as well as The Other End of the Leash (which I loved). I did find the former a little eyebrow-raising, but in the latter she does go into "the truth about dominance theory" and explains how the terms are so misused and misunderstood. What I was slightly unsure about though was that she does kinda go on to talk about how there is a social hierarchy with dogs and I just felt like I was reading dominance theory with different terms... except more sensible, I think? She didn't spout a lot of the bullshit associated with dominance theory like how if a dog is jumping on you HE IS ASSERTING HIS DOMINANCE OMG and things like that, which was nice. One thing that stuck out for some reason is she says that, for dogs, height is synonymous with a higher social status, which felt too black-and-white to me. And according to her Shadow is VERY MUCH a (somewhat rude) status-seeking dog with other dogs (never with people though). Just from watching how Shadow and other dogs behave, what she says makes sense, but I'm still iffy... I've just never seen any of it acknowledged in PI.
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Nov 14, 2011 00:24
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Kiri koli posted:That's a perfectly legitimate NILIF move, not a dominance move. Teaches them that open doors aren't for bolting through either. Psyche also asks for me to open doors by going to sit by them. And then there is of course the issue that so many NILIF sites seem to focus on using NILIF as some dominance related thing... but no making your dog wait to eat isn't teaching your dog you are ALPHA, just that importance of listening to their handler and practicing self control.  Skizzles posted:What I was slightly unsure about though was that she does kinda go on to talk about how there is a social hierarchy with dogs and I just felt like I was reading dominance theory with different terms... except more sensible, I think? She didn't spout a lot of the bullshit associated with dominance theory like how if a dog is jumping on you HE IS ASSERTING HIS DOMINANCE OMG and things like that, which was nice. I think this hit the nail on the head. It's kind of like the booklet would be helpful in somewhat changing the mindset of a dominance theory trainer (at least there's some R+ in there) as opposed to being a solid, sensible NILIF plan which was what I thought it was going to be. Personally speaking I'm not even sure dogs think things through as much as the booklet (and general dominance stuff) believes. I don't think my dogs see something and go 'this is a threat to my authority!!' or 'heh now I am higher status arent I', they're more interested in 'what is that weird thing?' and in terms of height, 'why are you floating???' Dominance stuff always kind of amuses me to fit my dogs into. Jess would be classed as submissive to people... except when she's being dominant/ignorant, and she'd be classed as dominant to strange dogs but submissive to Lola except for when she's not Dog interactions just aren't as limited as hierarchy alone IMOI've also read and really loved The Other End of the Leash 
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Nov 14, 2011 00:43
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I know I've asked for help with this before, but I'm still not seeing results. Bailey, around walk and food time, loves to try to push me around by jumping up on me and pushing. He occasionally pushes me with his nose, which is okay with me as he's a herding breed and I prefer it to nipping, but how do I get him to stop jumping? I've tried teaching him he gets nothing out of jumping on me (treats only come with four feet on the ground), but obviously the activity must be pretty reinforcing. Would my just leaving the room for a few seconds help?
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Nov 14, 2011 01:42
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I am going back home for winter break, which means I am close to a behaviorist finally! I emailed them explaining Dexter's nibbling/OCD problem and they said it is best to meet in person for cases like this. I am going to think about it for a day or two but I think I am going to go for it. I want my dog to be normal again. http://www.cooperativepaws.com/ This is the one I am probably taking him to. What do you guys think of them? It is $280 for a 2 hour consultation so I want to make sure it is a good place to go to. So far I like them but I still want to see what you guys think. If you get a chance, go look at their videos and watch the one of their dog, Monty, going to his room and closing his door. That video made me laugh so much.
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Nov 14, 2011 01:49
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cryingscarf posted:I am going back home for winter break, which means I am close to a behaviorist finally! I emailed them explaining Dexter's nibbling/OCD problem and they said it is best to meet in person for cases like this. I am going to think about it for a day or two but I think I am going to go for it. I want my dog to be normal again. My eye may not be quite as keen as a couple other folks' in this thread, but she looks pretty good to me. She appears to have a wide range of experience, uses only positive reinforcement, competes in obedience and other things with her dogs, etc. I read a little bit of her blog and I liked what I saw.
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Nov 14, 2011 02:10
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wtftastic posted:I've tried teaching him he gets nothing out of jumping on me (treats only come with four feet on the ground), but obviously the activity must be pretty reinforcing. Would my just leaving the room for a few seconds help? That's what I had to do with Major when I first got him. He is really big on attention seeking behavior so when he pounced or tried to push me around for attention I got up and went in to the bathroom for a minute then tried again. It's a nice clear signal that being a butt isn't getting him what he wants. cryingscarf posted:http://www.cooperativepaws.com/ This is the one I am probably taking him to. What do you guys think of them? It is $280 for a 2 hour consultation so I want to make sure it is a good place to go to. So far I like them but I still want to see what you guys think. If you get a chance, go look at their videos and watch the one of their dog, Monty, going to his room and closing his door. That video made me laugh so much. They seem like good trainers to me but are behavior consultants rather than veterinary behaviorists (it's complicated, I know). With OCD you may be better served by a consult with a veterinarian with behavioral training since it is a problem with brain chemistry more than just behavior and would be able to assess if the medication you are giving him is a good course of action. Someone off of this list or who is board certified from here may be more worth your time and money. That said the trainer you linked seems happy to refer people to vet behaviorists when they are beyond their reach so I don't think it would necessarily be bad to see them. I paid about that amount for Major's evaluation but it also came with 4 months of bi-weekly phone followups.
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Nov 14, 2011 02:25
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Instant Jellyfish posted:They seem like good trainers to me but are behavior consultants rather than veterinary behaviorists (it's complicated, I know). With OCD you may be better served by a consult with a veterinarian with behavioral training since it is a problem with brain chemistry more than just behavior and would be able to assess if the medication you are giving him is a good course of action. Someone off of this list or who is board certified from here may be more worth your time and money. That said the trainer you linked seems happy to refer people to vet behaviorists when they are beyond their reach so I don't think it would necessarily be bad to see them. I paid about that amount for Major's evaluation but it also came with 4 months of bi-weekly phone followups. I was completely unaware of that. Thank you so much for pointing that out. I am starting to feel overwhelmed about this. I think my plan now is to step back and restart. I think a huge part of why I am so all over the place with this is that I went to a vet that I never went to for anything other than vaccines and I did not feel comfortable with how he acted with this. I guess what it comes down to is that I do not trust him as much and he didn't make me feel confident in his decision at all. The impression I got is that he doesn't know much about it, there are no resources in the area to help this problem, so he just threw him on medication and I don't know. I have heard from some people that they love him, but the people I heard that from are very... southern? and outdated with their outlook on vets/behaviorists. (basically, the same people that have been telling me that dogs gnawing themselves until they are bleeding is "normal dog behavior!!" and hit their dogs to train them. Sorry but no.) There is a vet back home that we always take our family dogs to. Monty has been sick with so many weird things, and this vet has proved himself by really going out of his way to try to help us with him. I would feel much more comfortable talking to him, getting a second opinion on Dexter, and then see if he can recommend anyone that I can go to if I need to. I am going to call tomorrow and see if I can get an appointment next weekend to see him before I do anything else. And slight change of topic. I am so proud of the little brat Dexter finally had a breakthrough in learning to fetch! We have been working on it since I got him and for some reason recently it has started to make sense to him. http://youtu.be/hFwkYTo4y7 He does make some awful high pitched bark/excited noises whenever balls are involved in any game. We are working on NOT doing it while playing. It is a slow process but we are definitely getting somewhere with it
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Nov 14, 2011 03:29
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Fraction posted:Do you think that's a holdover from a lot of trainers having started out in dominance backgrounds/so much dominance theory stuff being so popular? I do (strongly) believe that any good trainer will take leadership issues into consideration when training and more generally, when living life with dogs. Clickerly people tend to talk about it in softer terms than the Millanesque folks ("leading the dance" versus "pack leader"), but it's still there most of the time. The way I see it, when done properly it's more about structure than dominance. (Being the one who opens doors and provides food you ARE the dominant one by definition, so it's a moot point anyway.) You can build structure into a dog's life with NILF and clicker training, but you need to be really consistent and that's really hard for a lot of people. I don't think it matters one bit where your dog walks etc. just as long as you are in a position to tell him where to go. I guess articles like Leading the Dance and McConnell's text just outline one way of achieving this for someone who's confused about it.
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Nov 14, 2011 10:08
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Since we're talking about Patricia McConnell, I want to ask you guys' opinion on her section on voice tone. She talks about using different tones - high and playful for requests, and low and curt for demands with no other option. I was told before that most if not all commands should be high and playful to reduce stress on the dog. I have to admit that when Butters was being extra barky and jumpy after seeing something even after we have exited the general area, he would not respond to a sit-stay at all when done in a high and playful voice, but would respond to a low tone of voice. Should I keep doing this? After a sit-stay and when he calms down, I say 'good boy' in a high and playful voice and give him extra tasty treats like liver. Am I going about it the wrong way?
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Nov 14, 2011 22:16
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Rixatrix posted:I don't know. They do tend to stick with it, Shirley's website has been updated recently and her article is still there. IMO there's a difference between behaviour that, for me, edges on the absurd (e.g. insisting your dog move out of the way, never letting your dog walk ahead) and just providing structure, but hey. I don't think there's any difference between "Leading the Dance" stuff and NILIF stuff other than the LtD stuff uses dominance crap. Kunabomber posted:Since we're talking about Patricia McConnell, I want to ask you guys' opinion on her section on voice tone. She talks about using different tones - high and playful for requests, and low and curt for demands with no other option. I was told before that most if not all commands should be high and playful to reduce stress on the dog. I don't use high and playful voices for Lola  I just use a calm, low voice (not loud/barking out orders) for cues. She gets excited 'good girl!'s and 'yeah! you go puppy!', etc, but if I'm asking her to do it it's in a normal voice or slightly lower voice to get her attention. 'High and playful' cues just make Lola go all dumb and wiggly, and for some reason she can't do a downstay when she's wiggling her rear end off 
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Nov 14, 2011 22:26
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Kunabomber posted:Since we're talking about Patricia McConnell, I want to ask you guys' opinion on her section on voice tone. She talks about using different tones - high and playful for requests, and low and curt for demands with no other option. I was told before that most if not all commands should be high and playful to reduce stress on the dog. I've found that using a low serious tone works well with some dogs when they are very excited. You need to be careful you aren't sounding angry or exasperated or such. Basically just make sure you aren't just yelling at the dog. I call it my 'drill sergeant voice'.
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Nov 14, 2011 22:38
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For Shadow I just use kind of a normal voice, though I try to keep things a little on the upbeat side (especially praise). One little "no" in a remotely unhappy tone will break him and he will go into his "I'M SO SORRY I DIDN'T MEAN TO, HERE LET ME IGNORE YOUR CUES WHILE I GO THROUGH EVERY THING IN MY REPERTOIRE UNTIL I FIND THE ONE THAT PLEASES YOU PLEASE DO NOT HURT ME I CAN BE GOOD DOG" thing. My boyfriend uses a much more "barking orders" tone of voice and Shadow doesn't respond to him as well (it could also be just because Shadow's much more bonded with me). In "oh poo poo" moments that may actually become dangerous, I will shout a cue at Shadow in that demanding, panicked (but not high-pitched) tone of voice and he responds very quickly to that. When Shadow is being stubborn, like ignoring me when I call him to instead continue obliterating a REALLY INTERESTING chipmunk burrow, all I have to do is grumpily say "NOW" and he will come immediately. I don't like to do it though because that's his "oh poo poo I'm in trouble" word/tone and when he comes he does so with the most pitiful "I'm sorry" look until I reassure him that, no, he is not a Bad Dog and I am not going to Beat Him.  Patricia McConnell did a study on whether or not high-pitched, rapid, successive noises (as well as low, long ones) had any effect on an animal's speed, and she found that the high-pitched rapid ones would typically make an animal more excited and go faster (and of course the low, long ones made them slower/calmer). The high-pitched, rapid successive ones don't work that well on Shadow when he's decided he'd like to dawdle. So I think it also very much depends on the individual dog.
Skizzles fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Nov 15, 2011 |
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Nov 15, 2011 05:28
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I managed to teach my 2 year old Goldens how to loose leash walk this weekend; previously they'd just pull us around and I didn't know any better. They picked it up remarkably well. It was really just as simple as reversing directions as soon as they walked too far ahead of me.
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Nov 15, 2011 19:35
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Does anyone here have a resource for better understanding adopting a Chow-mix dog with a history of biting strangers at home? I'm trying to understand if this is something I could potentially manage or if I should look for a different dog to adopt.
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Nov 16, 2011 00:58
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Periodiko posted:Does anyone here have a resource for better understanding adopting a Chow-mix dog with a history of biting strangers at home? I'm trying to understand if this is something I could potentially manage or if I should look for a different dog to adopt. Owning a dog that has a history of reactive or aggressive behavior requires dedication, resources, and effort beyond what you would normally put into a non-competing dog. A dog that bites needs to be handled with even more care. What is his history of biting? Under what circumstances and how hard? Managing such a dog can be as simple as just not letting it near strangers. If the dog likes everyone in the household and you don't have people over often, then it's not a huge deal to crate the dog while you have company. Taking it on walks requires finding times and places that are not terribly crowded. However, I'm going to assume that you don't want to just manage the dog, but also work on changing its behavior. This will involve a long process of counter-conditioning and desensitization. You will probably need to hire a trainer (or a veterinary behaviorist if you can afford it) and attend classes/private sessions. If the biting is anxiety related, you may need to consider medication. This is a blog about a reactive dog and her owner's work with her: http://reactivechampion.blogspot.com/ She talks about training and her dog's process, her vet behaviorist, and medications. Her dog doesn't bite, but the fundamentals are the same. You'll most likely need to incorporate muzzles into your training, which is not a big deal despite the stigma attached to it. This post has many good books, both on general positive training techniques and specific fear/aggression issues. Fearfuldogs.com is a good website if you aren't ready to buy a bunch of books. My dog does bite and is reactive to both people and other dogs, so I'd be happy to answer any questions you have. Biting is not the sign of a 'bad' dog. All dogs will bite given the right stimulus. It is a lot of work to bring back a reactive dog, though, and is not something to take on lightly. I applaud you for even considering it and for doing your homework on the issue. It always makes me happy when someone wants to try and give one of these dogs a second chance.
Kiri koli fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Nov 16, 2011 |
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Nov 16, 2011 01:34
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Thanks for your reply. Let me explain the situation in a bit more detail: The dog's name is Randall, and is a shelter dog. He appears to be some kind of retriever mixed with Chow, basically a 40 pound fluffy lab. We've visited him four, five times over the past month at the shelter, taken him for walks and interacted with him off-leash. The dog swept us off our feet, he's incredibly charming, friendly, but also calm and well-mannered. He's explicitly not dog-reactive: the shelter lists him as "Dog Friendly" and all of our experiences have backed that up. A lot of the other dogs we walked showed signs of anxiety when we got within 20-30 feet of other dogs, Randall was always pretty relaxed. He takes treats gently, he knows tricks, when I rest at a park bench along the way, he seems to know it's time to chill out and sit down rather than straining at the leash to keep going. Our personal experience is that he's been the best behaved dog we've met there, with a really great personality. We really like him a lot. After seeing him the first time, we were informed that he has a troubled history. His first family had him for 2 years (he's 3+ years old), which was checkered with a number of incidents, a bite and a number of incidents of him snapping at people. The mother said he "charged" at her at one point. He may have gotten "protective" of the baby. They visited one trainer, who felt the problem was "too serious" to manage. They did not visit any other trainers or behaviorists. He was later adopted by another family, for one day. He bit a neighbor twice after he came to the home and tried to force interaction with the dog the night he was adopted. They apparently were drinking, and he approached the dog, got in it's face, and it bit him on his face. Then, amazingly, he returned, tried interacting with the dog again, and it bit him again. This particular incident is the least worrisome to me, since it just seems like incredible foolishness, and very understandable fear-based defense against a scary stranger in a strange place. He was quickly returned. I received a call from a shelter worker to discuss the issue further. Understandably, she doesn't want Randall to be adopted again, only to be returned again, or worse, have Randall biting someone and ending up legally labeled a "dangerous dog". The problem is, none of us can reconcile our personal experience with these sometimes vague second-hand reports to actually make a decision as to whether we can in good conscience adopt this dog. I'm trying to arm myself with more information, because I simply don't have the tools to make this decision intelligently. You talk about fear/aggression in general terms, but does it sound to you, as it does to me, like his bad behavior is attached to his home environment? For example, you talk about altering a dog-walking schedule so that he doesn't get into trouble situations, but my experience walking him is that he really isn't a fearful or aggressive dog on a walk. It seems to be explicitly when he feels his personal space in his home is violated that he becomes aggressive. Is this a reasonable conclusion? I should add this would be the first dog I have personally owned. I've tried to educate myself as thoroughly as possible on the subject though, and the desire to adopt a dog has been a long time coming. Periodiko fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Nov 16, 2011 |
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Nov 16, 2011 02:18
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Periodiko posted:chow mix Hm, yeah, that's a tough one. It does sound like his reactions were caused by his environment and particularly the ignorant people around him. However, that unfortunately does not mean that you can just give him a better environment and these problems will go away for sure. I consider what happened with my dog to be a worst case scenario for an unsuspecting adopter, but I think that's what you should be prepared for. In my dog's case, she was being fostered with a pair of trainers after being given up by her first family that did not socialize or train her at all. Her problems were vaguely recounted by the first owners; they claimed she bit someone (there was no report) and was always 'running out the door' so they had to give her up. They also admitted (out of ignorance) to emotionally abusing her and I strongly suspect they physically abused her as well (at least kicking at her). The foster did a temperament test, which she passed, and observed her interacting with their other foster dogs (always off-leash, which they didn't tell us until later). They brought her to events to promote their foster home and observed her to be a bit skittish and having terrible doggie manners, but otherwise a really smart dog, friendly with people. We discussed her a lot with them and saw videos and then we meet with her and the trainer for a couple hours and she warmed up to us pretty quickly. Since we lived five hours away, we made the decision to take her with us then. We discovered pretty immediately after that that she was leash-reactive and basically the move to our apartment environment (with loud neighbors) was too much for her. She became reactive to both dogs and people around our apartment complex. We've been working with a trainer ever since, who assured us that we didn't do anything wrong, it was just a combination of the bad foundation she started with and her new environment that gave her an anxiety that she can't shake. From what I've seen in my reactive dog classes, she's almost as bad as they get. But you should prepare for the worst and accept that if you adopt him, you might end up with some reactivity that you didn't see at the shelter because of the change in environment or whatever. That being said, I don't think it sounds like you'd be adopting a dog with a biting problem. He may be territorial, but as long as he gets along with everyone who lives in your house, this is something you can deal with. He may be possessive of a particular person, anxious around strangers, or resource guarding. Again, things that can be dealt with. You also never know what a dog might consider 'his' territory. It could be that he sees your neighborhood as his territory and has a bit of trouble on walks. All things to keep in mind. After going through what I have with my dog, he honestly sounds like a cakewalk to me. But it's understandable if you don't want to deal with ANY issues. Sometimes shelters give you a trial run. Have you asked if you could bring him home for a week and then decide? I imagine the dog doesn't have that many choices and the shelter wants to place him with a family that is willing to consider dealing with his issues, so they may be open to the idea. Let me know if you have any questions. Edit: Psyche was our first dog too. If you're willing to do research, you can come up to speed pretty quickly. My trainer jokes a lot about how we're practically trainers ourselves now. It's generally not recommended for a first time dog owner to take on a challenging breed or particularly challenging individual dog, but sometimes that's just how it shakes out. Kiri koli fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Nov 16, 2011 |
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Nov 16, 2011 03:13
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Periodiko posted:The dog's name is Randall My dog had been adopted out twice before I got him and the reasons the rescue gave me certainly made it seem that the people who had him before were morons but I was not there and I am sure there was more to those situations than I (and possibly the rescue) know. He was such a good dog when I met him, a little wild and woolly from being in a kennel environment but many people thought he even could be a therapy dog with some training. Then he settled in to my home and he started showing a different side than I saw at the rescue. He ended up being a very anxious dog, with severe travel anxiety, and can be reactive towards dogs and people especially on our property. He's on anxiety meds and we've made tons of progress but not before he bit my grandma at a family gathering. If you are willing to work with this dog all the more power to you, just be aware that dogs can be very different in different environments. Get help from a behaviorist or good positive trainer right away, before he starts showing any problems. You might even want to talk to one now and have them evaluate the dog. It can be exhausting managing a reactive/aggressive dog and you should have all the information possible before you commit to it. If Randall really does just bite when cornered in his home I don't see why it couldn't be managed by religiously putting the dog away someplace safe when people are over. My dog knows when someone knocks on the door that its time for him to go to his crate in a back room for oodles of treats. He only ever meets people in controlled situations with people I trust. A good behaviorist or trainer should help you slowly work towards Randall being comfortable with people in his bubble unless he has a lot more extensive problems than you know about. Ed. Major is my first dog and while he is crazy and a ton of work I can't imagine not having him. I've had to learn a ton about training and dogs in general but there are lots of resources available online and through professionals that can help you get through it. Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Nov 16, 2011 |
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Nov 16, 2011 03:42
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Periodiko posted:Does anyone here have a resource for better understanding adopting a Chow-mix dog with a history of biting strangers at home? I'm trying to understand if this is something I could potentially manage or if I should look for a different dog to adopt. I'm surprised the shelter is even adopting this dog out. He could honestly be a legal liability to them since they're knowingly placing a dog with a bite history into a new family. He sounds like a handful - Chows are particularly difficult dogs. He'll be more than just a family dog. He'll be a project. Are you ready to take it on? With that said, he also sounds quite lovely, and I personally would be willing to give him a shot. The number one most important thing you're going to have to remember is to be proactive about EVERYTHING. You're going to be managing the dog to the extreme so he never has the opportunity to mess up for at least the first few MONTHS. That might mean muzzle training, not letting him get close to unfamiliar people, identifying and tracking triggers, etc. You're going to want to work hand in hand with a behaviourist if you can. I would recommend looking into Behavioural Adjustment Training (BAT). Grisha Stewart recently published a book about it. Also on your list of recommended reading should be: Don't Shoot the Dog Focus, Not Fear Bones Would Rain From The Sky Culture Clash + anything else that catches your eye Look at post #4 in the OP of this thread for links/authors. Knowledge will be your best tool in dealing with Randall, so I don't think you can read too many quality training books. Good luck. Maybe consider keeping this thread up to date with your progress if you decide to complete the adoption.
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Nov 16, 2011 03:54
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Kiri and Instant Jellyfish have already covered this, but I just feel like its important to emphasize how hard managing an even mildly reactive dog. Bailey was a big sweetie pie when I went to see him at the shelter, pretty chill, good with other dogs, no obvious triggers. I get him home, he's fine the first week or so, and then I figure out he's terrified of cars, lunging at them and biting their tires. Which was an interesting experience. He hates being groomed or handled at the vet, which made my first vet's visit very stressful, etc. Basically, I am sure this is the result of poor socialization (probably never groomed or trimmed his nails when he was an outdoor dog) and some early bad experiences with cars. Bailey is also my first dog and I cannot imagine how much more stressful it would be managing a dog with a known history of reactivity and aggression; if you think you are up to it, then its great that Randall will have an awesome home with you guys. But I have to say there have been times when working on even minor things with Bailey has been fairly depressing and stressful. I hope this doesn't sound histrionic or like I don't think you should adopt the dog, I just think you need to realize how much of a mental (and possibly physical and financial) investment you are making in adopting a dog like Randall.
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Nov 16, 2011 04:28
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I always feel so bad for you guys with reactive dogs, it sounds like such a rough situation, but you're all awesome for taking it on. Sometimes I wish I could lend you each Shadow so you can take a break and chill out with an easy dog for a bit. So my mom's pugs are being... well, pugs. She recently replaced her old, flimsy dog door with a new energy-efficient one, meaning the door is a bit heavier... and they don't know how the gently caress to work it. She got one of them to pass through it for treats, but Mom says the dog thinks that's the only time she can pass through the dog door or something. The other, dumber pug, however, is convinced it is impossible to go through, treats or no. Any ideas how to work on this? (Yes, ideally she would not have a dog door and should be more of a Responsible Dog Owner, but there's no point arguing it because complicated situation etc. etc.)
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Nov 16, 2011 05:19
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With regards to the whole Jordan Shelley/BBC 'One Show' dog trainer thing from September: Interview with Jordan Shelley I think it's a pretty cool consequence of what happened. Shelley met up with and attended seminars by Ian and Kelly Dunbar, Grisha Stewart (BAT lady), and some other R+ APDT folks. He's apparently changed massively in his methods since his appearance - keeping them under threshold, etc. He's not perfect by any shot (still thinking dominance theory/traditional methods have application by 'professionals', ehhh), but he's endorsing Positive Reinforcement a hell of a lot more.
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Nov 16, 2011 12:21
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Fraction posted:With regards to the whole Jordan Shelley/BBC 'One Show' dog trainer thing from September: I came here to post this  , it's quite an amazing turnaround. I'm quite proud of the Grate British Public too; it's sent a clear message that we will not tolerate abusive and dominance based training methods on our screens.
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Nov 16, 2011 13:37
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a life less posted:I'm surprised the shelter is even adopting this dog out. He could honestly be a legal liability to them since they're knowingly placing a dog with a bite history into a new family. I think this somewhat depends on which state you're in. I found the bite laws to be actually pretty confusing, some states it seems like you can get in trouble if you had any prior knowledge that a dog may bite and others you can get away with the 'first' bite. I wonder if there were any actual reports. If the shelter just has the people's word that he bit, they might not see it as a liability. It also depends on the severity of the bites. I mean, what do you consider a bite worthy of a bite history? A nip? A bruise, blood, a band-aid, stitches? At any rate, if they adopt Randall, one of the things they will have to be really careful about is only letting him near informed friends, for training purposes or otherwise. I tell everyone up front that my dog has bitten if they volunteer to help us with her and she never goes close enough to strangers for there to be any contact. She's never bitten so hard that anyone required a band-aid, but still it's not worth taking chances.
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Nov 16, 2011 14:20
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notsoape posted:I came here to post this That is an intensely fat Staffy on that sofa....and the others look pretty chubby too. So, if you guys had one dog who is smart as a whip, calming with age energy-wise but could use a more structured outlet AND you had a dog who was also smart as a whip but already fairly sedate and you just wanted to see how far you could go with her obedience-wise, but you can only afford one class at a time, which would you enroll first? Both dogs pretty much know the basics, general house manners and that clicker = good things but neither have been in a formal class before and I know both could use some serious finessing.
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Nov 16, 2011 17:43
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TVs Ian posted:That is an intensely fat Staffy on that sofa....and the others look pretty chubby too. Over here that's pretty much standard for dog weight. Most people would probably think the one on his lap wasn't fat enough  I'd put the first dog into class first, as classes provide more structure, and work intensely on the other with clicker tricks.
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Nov 16, 2011 17:50
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