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YF-23 posted:Maybe in the Most Shocking Twist Yet preScratch dad will be revealed to have been adopted. fedoraFreak went God Tier and then hitched a ride on a meteor back to earth. He wasn't actually Nanna's son but ended up considering her to be a mother figure to him, to the point where he legally became her heir. The reason fedoraFreak and Dad sound so different in the Serious Business application is because Dad raised a kid and grew a lot as a person. Since he's the God Tier Gent of Piss, he didn't actually die when Jack stabbed him. It's all a prank at John's expense.
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Nov 13, 2011 18:15
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Well, Nannasprite was vague about Dad's origin when she discussed her past with fedorafreak, and of course there are some hints as to what might happen in the current act:Nannasprite posted:pipefan413: She considered a reunion with her estranged brother, and once destined husband to be. But the days of longing for a future with him seemed to be from another lifetime. The chance had come and gone. She was content to let him live his increasingly elaborate life, while she sought a simpler one.
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Nov 13, 2011 18:20
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H.P. Shivcraft posted:pipefan413: She considered a reunion with her estranged brother, and once destined husband to be. But the days of longing for a future with him seemed to be from another lifetime. I had completely forgotten about that little snippet of commentary on the bizarre human anathema of incest. In any case, all aboard the steamboat JanexJake I guess. 
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Nov 13, 2011 18:41
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Renaissance Robot posted:I had completely forgotten about that little snippet of commentary on the bizarre human anathema of incest. In any case, all aboard the steamboat JanexJake I guess. They're not actually brother and sister though. Jane and Jake are paradox clones of themselves, there's no genetic sharing at all like Jade+John / Rose+Dave The point is more that they were both adopted by the Batter Witch and a certain Colonel. That's why they're "brother and sister"
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Nov 13, 2011 18:59
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haruspex posted:I can't believe nobody has brought up what is clearly the most important question of all: If Mom is now a kid, does that mean Dad Egbert is going to have an epic romance with . . . Rose? (John is gonna be so mad! Getting cockblocked by your own son/brother/dad/guardian, totally uncool.) If it mirrors the previous session, John and Jade are already dead.
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Nov 13, 2011 19:05
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And if John and Jade are already dead than it makes sense for kidJohn and kidJade to bust through a fourth wall. We can't have paradoxical amounts of people!
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Nov 13, 2011 19:08
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Zorak posted:They're not actually brother and sister though. Jane and Jake are paradox clones of themselves, there's no genetic sharing at all like Jade+John / Rose+Dave But are Jane and Jake related in the post scratch universe? If the kids (or rather their scratched parallels) are now the ancestors, wouldn't John and Jade be the ectobiological parents of Jane and Jake? Would it really count as incest even then? I mean deciphering the genetic lineage of these guys is pretty much impossible. Technically they're not even related to other humans, with 4 of them being made from the ghost imprints of the other 4 who are made of ghost imprints of themselves. Homestuck genetic relations are weird, basically.
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Nov 13, 2011 19:09
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There's nothing to say that the "ancestors" can't have landed after their descendents. In fact, we've already seen an example of that with the Handmaid.
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Nov 13, 2011 19:20
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Walliard posted:There's nothing to say that the "ancestors" can't have landed after their descendents. In fact, we've already seen an example of that with the Handmaid. No, we've already seen the items the kids were sent with. Both bunnies, Col. Sass. book, and Dave is apparent because of SBaHJ.
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Nov 13, 2011 19:21
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The various items from the pre-Scratch universe can be explained by an in-post-Scratch universe time loop. Col. Sassacre's book got in Jane's hands because she accidentally sent her Paradox Clone through the portal with it and so on.
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Nov 13, 2011 20:00
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I really want to see what's inside Game GRL.
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Nov 13, 2011 20:05
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KoB posted:If it mirrors the previous session, John and Jade are already dead.
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Nov 13, 2011 20:06
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:I really want to see what's inside Game GRL. Denise was so wasted, haha. I mean drat.
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Nov 13, 2011 20:09
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Jetsetlemming posted:I don't remember how John's Nanna died, but Jade's Grandpa was shot by a newly arrived baby Jade playing with guns coming out of their arrival crater. Swapping the roles, with Grandma Jade's possible foresight, and baby Grandpa's possible better control over guns, it's entirely possible Jade's an old woman and still kicking around. Nanna was smashed by John's meteor.
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Nov 13, 2011 20:10
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Jetsetlemming posted:I don't remember how John's Nanna died, but Jade's Grandpa was shot by a newly arrived baby Jade playing with guns coming out of their arrival crater. Swapping the roles, with Grandma Jade's possible foresight, and baby Grandpa's possible better control over guns, it's entirely possible Jade's an old woman and still kicking around. Colonel Sassacre was killed by a newly arrived Grandpa Harley when he was playing with his own dual pistols. Grandpa Harley was killed when Tavros saved baby Jade, who was also playing with the same pistols, by communing with Bec to redirect the bullet into Grandpa.
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Nov 13, 2011 20:14
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Jetsetlemming posted:I don't remember how John's Nanna died, but Jade's Grandpa was shot by a newly arrived baby Jade playing with guns coming out of their arrival crater. Swapping the roles, with Grandma Jade's possible foresight, and baby Grandpa's possible better control over guns, it's entirely possible Jade's an old woman and still kicking around. Actually, Grandpa Harley was done in by a combo of leaving children alone with dual flintlock pistols and Tavros not being aware of cultural differences. He died when Jade was still small, but not a baby. Colonel Sassacre was the one who was shot to death by baby Grandpa when the meteors fell. (Jake is a born killer.) ninja edit: ah beaten on the above, but since Grandpa's death was due to involvement in Sburb/transuniverse psychic shenanigans, who knows what's happened Grandma Jade in this timeline.
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Nov 13, 2011 20:15
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:I really want to see what's inside Game GRL. Homestuck Volume 9: Gamegrl (Original 1990 Mix) gently caress, I already can't wait for the next album. On topic though, do we know for sure that the kids are all going to be old now something because honestly that would kind of suck, not even considering how John would probably be dead or something so we could have
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Nov 13, 2011 20:56
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Wrist Watch posted:Homestuck Volume 9: Gamegrl (Original 1990 Mix) It's been strongly hinted towards. I don't see why that would be a problem, though. It's not as if the kids we know have suddenly turned old, just their post-scratch counterparts.
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Nov 13, 2011 21:01
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Zorak posted:They're not actually brother and sister though. Jane and Jake are paradox clones of themselves, there's no genetic sharing at all like Jade+John / Rose+Dave Now here's a question for you. In the 'original' session, the guardians were cloned first (so they're not related to each other) and the kids were cloned from them, making John and Jade siblings as well as Dave and Rose. So, in this session (assuming, one-square Sburb logo aside, that the four reset guardians are going to be players) did these events follow the same order? Or did they also get reversed? Are Jane and Jake brother and sister, or are Grandpa John and Grandma Jade their ectobiological kids? Shipping diagrams, shipping diagrams everywhere.
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Nov 13, 2011 21:04
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Dolash posted:Now here's a question for you. I strongly think the evidence so far, based on the artifacts sent back with the babies, implies that the characters in this post-scratch universe are exact copies of the babies that were on the meteors sent back by John. So Jane and Jake are unrelated, and Grandpa John and Nanna Jade are siblings. Jane (or any other kid) won't create this group ectobiologically because they come from the last session. Edit: Either way, Dad/Rose is now a viable pairing on he shipping grid now 
creationist believer fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 21:18
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System Pelican posted:It's not as if the kids we know have suddenly turned old, just their post-scratch counterparts. Oh, okay. I thought that's what everyone was saying had happened and was wondering why no one else was upset about it. creationist believer posted:Edit: Either way, Dad/Rose is now a viable pairing on he shipping grid now
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Nov 13, 2011 22:15
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creationist believer posted:I strongly think the evidence so far, based on the artifacts sent back with the babies, implies that the characters in this post-scratch universe are exact copies of the babies that were on the meteors sent back by John. So Jane and Jake are unrelated, and Grandpa John and Nanna Jade are siblings. Jane (or any other kid) won't create this group ectobiologically because they come from the last session. Pretty sure she still has to create them and send them back on meteors, it's just the case that we don't know what order they'll be created in or how they'll be sent back. Remember how Karkat had to create all the grubs and send them back, even though he was in a Scratched session himself? Although it'd be a pretty funny inversion of the "So I have to marry Rose?" stuff if Jane and Jake were like "So we're actually our grandparents' parents?"
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Nov 13, 2011 22:21
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Dolash posted:Pretty sure she still has to create them and send them back on meteors, it's just the case that we don't know what order they'll be created in or how they'll be sent back. Remember how Karkat had to create all the grubs and send them back, even though he was in a Scratched session himself? No, he's saying that the babies created in the pre-scratch session also went to the post-scratch session. Copied exactly, but landing at opposite times in both universs. Remember that the troll pre-scratch session specifically did not have the ectobiology sequence for whatever reason, yet those trolls still existed just fine - because they came from the troll post-scratch session, it appears. What happened to the trolls has happened in reverse for the humans: the trolls made themselves post-scratch, the kids made themselves pre-scratch. Both are part of the "glitch" that brings in Lord English. It has yet to be explicitly stated like this, but it is appearing to be the only possible explanation for why Hussie brought up this specific "symptom" and for why all the items John sent with the babies are appearing in the scratched universe.
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Nov 13, 2011 22:28
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Dolash posted:Pretty sure she still has to create them and send them back on meteors, it's just the case that we don't know what order they'll be created in or how they'll be sent back. Remember how Karkat had to create all the grubs and send them back, even though he was in a Scratched session himself? Well my theory is that the ectobiological relationship between the scratched and original sessions is reversed for the humans from what it was on the trolls. Here's how I think it works: Karkat created 24 grubs. The 12 trolls and their 12 ancestors. We don't know anything about the genetic relationship between these guys but since trolls don't have concepts of families it doesn't really matter. Anyway, these 24 grubs get put on meteors and sent through the portals. Through some mechanism we don't yet understand, they are duplicated (so a total of 48 grubs) and end up in both the Alternia our trolls come from and the Alternia the previous group that failed came from. This explains how the pre-scratch trolls were not spawned in their own session. This is how the glitch Doc Scratch talked about manifested itself. Now for the kids, we know that the pre-scratch session did not work this way. John absolutely did create the four guardians and four kids from their own universe and session. But now we've seen that in the scratched universe, the meteors containing the kids and guardians seem to have still held the same belongings (bunnies, Cal, sassacre book, etc.) that they did in the pre-scratch universe. So presumably the same duplication happened and copies of the kids and guardians and their belongings that John created were sent to both versions of earth. I believe that this is the same glitch that Doc Scratch was talking about and that it doesn't matter that it happened in the opposite way that it did for the trolls. So I don't think there is going to be yet another scratch after this one to pave the way for Lord English. I think he is already here. There are probably more details we don't know about that will make things clearer as we proceed, but that's how I envision it working at the moment. Edit: Ha, beaten by MrBims with the same idea.
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Nov 13, 2011 22:31
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Dolash posted:Pretty sure she still has to create them and send them back on meteors, it's just the case that we don't know what order they'll be created in or how they'll be sent back. Remember how Karkat had to create all the grubs and send them back, even though he was in a Scratched session himself? Well, the glitch indicating the presence of LE in the original ancestors' game was that there was no ectobiology session - they existed but had no point of origin. The ancestors-as-kids were created in the Scratched session by Karkat and sent back in duplicate, once to post-scratch Alternia, and once to pre-scratch Alternia. Presumably the Skaia portals do some scratch-related trickery with meteors to facilitate this. Scratch describes this as Lord English's "calling card". As such it seems a safe bet (especially since the new kids are apparently identical to the cloned-from-themselves guardians) that the babies John created pre-scratch were simply sent back in duplicate, with one set arriving at post-scratch Earth on a reshuffled timeframe from before.
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Nov 13, 2011 22:32
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Dolash posted:Pretty sure she still has to create them and send them back on meteors, it's just the case that we don't know what order they'll be created in or how they'll be sent back. Remember how Karkat had to create all the grubs and send them back, even though he was in a Scratched session himself? Supposed to but I don't think she HAS to create the ectobabies. I'm really running off the presence of ALL the artifacts sent back with the babies by John being present in this timeline, but it really suggests that the babies post scratch are duplicates of the babies John sent back in a different order, not ectobiologically creations of this session. Sometimes things are so obvious it's not a plot twist (4x corpsesmooch) and sometimes it's so obvious it is false (tumor will destroy the green sun). I think the ectobaby artifacts is a case of the former. Edit: 3xBeaten combo creationist believer fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 22:35
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I wonder what chat program they're using. We had Pestering and Pesterchum, Trolling and Trollian, and now Jane mentions Bothering...using Botherbot?
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Nov 13, 2011 23:05
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creationist believer posted:Sometimes things are so obvious it's not a plot twist (4x corpsesmooch) Hold on I wasn't reading then, what sort of hypothetical plot twist apparently revolved around corpsesmooching?
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Nov 13, 2011 23:22
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MrBims posted:No, he's saying that the babies created in the pre-scratch session also went to the post-scratch session. Copied exactly, but landing at opposite times in both universs. Remember that the troll pre-scratch session specifically did not have the ectobiology sequence for whatever reason, yet those trolls still existed just fine - because they came from the troll post-scratch session, it appears. What happened to the trolls has happened in reverse for the humans: the trolls made themselves post-scratch, the kids made themselves pre-scratch. Both are part of the "glitch" that brings in Lord English. That's not the case, though. Karkat created his friends as well as his ancestors, and sent them back in time into his world to become the ancestors like Mindfang and her ilk. It's explicitely not the case, in fact, because we saw that the guardians that John made were sent into his universe to become Nana Egbert and Grandpa Harley and so on. So the reset kids will have to create themselves ectobiologically, and we still don't know if the order of their creation will be reversed or not. The items are explainable as the reset kid-guardians going through most of the same experiences as the kids and thus coming across the same items.
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Nov 13, 2011 23:38
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Dolash, my post right after MrBims' explained the theory about duplication and the reasoning behind it.
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Nov 13, 2011 23:40
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Right, I read that too. Why would it work like that? That seems the less intuitive conclusion to draw. Technically we've not seen the post-Scratch kid-Guardians or the pre-Scratch Ancestor-trolls do any ectobiology, but it seems less intuitive to say a post-scratch universe did the ectobiology in one case while a pre-scratch did in the other rather than just saying each session does its own ectobiology.
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Nov 13, 2011 23:41
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Dolash posted:Right, I read that too. Because it's a glitch.
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Nov 13, 2011 23:42
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Well how else would you explain the fact that the pre-scratch trolls didn't do any ectobiology?
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Nov 13, 2011 23:42
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Wait, they didn't? I guess I must have missed that. That makes the "one ectobiology session for each universe" theory more live.
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Nov 13, 2011 23:43
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Dolash posted:Right, I read that too. It is the only intuitive conclusion to draw given the evidence.
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Nov 13, 2011 23:44
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That's the conclusion I drew from the fact that they weren't spawned in their own session.
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Nov 13, 2011 23:44
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Dolash posted:Wait, they didn't? I guess I must have missed that. That makes the "one ectobiology session for each universe" theory more live. There's a whole thing where Doc Scratch explains lengthily that they didn't, that the ancestors Karkat created became both the post-scratch ancestors and the pre-scratch heroes, and that the absence of an ectobiology session is Lord English's calling card or signature. Like four people posted that already! e: actually it's not really clear whether the grubs Karkat wrangled crossed session boundaries, or whether the original heroes were just paradoxically doomed due to having no point of origin. Either way! Android Blues fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Nov 13, 2011 |
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Nov 13, 2011 23:47
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Ammat The Ankh posted:Hold on I wasn't reading then, what sort of hypothetical plot twist apparently revolved around corpsesmooching? There were none. Everyone shouted "4x corpsesmooch incoming. I called it!" And AH said "of course, I kind of telegraphed that heavy handidly".
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Nov 13, 2011 23:50
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To step back a bit and examine our assumptions, looking at exactly what Doc Scratch says there is some room speculation about what exactly happened. What he states is: "Though they could not recognize it for the bad omen it was, this session was not the one in which they had been spawned." http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005953 This alone leaves 3 possibilities: 1. Karkat made 48 grubs and 24 ended up going to each version of Alternia. 2. Karkat made the 24 trolls from the pre-scratch universe and one of them made the 24 from the post-scratch universe and then they swapped somehow. 3. They literally are identical, and part of the mysterious manner in which the Scratch works requires only a single ectobiology for both pre-scratch and post-scratch players and ancestors/guardians. 1 can be rejected outright as Karkat tells us exactly how many grubs he made here: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005370 (Also Vriska implies the same thing here: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=005375) We also know that John made 8 not 16, so we can cross that one off. 2 is technically possible but seems silly to me. At least with the humans it would require both sets to end up with exactly the same belongings. There may be other reasons that it doesn't work that I haven't thought of. 3 is the one that makes the most sense to me, and it fits in with the theme of the Scratch. After all, the scratch is a reset - of an entire universe that in this case has actually been destroyed! There's a lot we don't know about how it works. It's probably also not supposed to be a duplication, as the pre-scratch individuals are supposed to be erased entirely. My guess is that somehow the data of all the history of the universe, including all the meteors that entered it, is stored and then changed around when the scratch happens. The orders and locations of the impacts are changed to fit the requirements of switching the roles of the players and ancestors/guardians. Edit: An interesting thing about this line of thinking is that it actually makes more sense for the pre-scratch session to be the one responsible for the ectobiology. However, that was obviously that was not the case for the Trolls. Not sure if that should be written off as "it's a glitch" or "weird time poo poo" or whether there's more to it. It's most likely the last one. Regy Rusty fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Nov 14, 2011 |
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Nov 14, 2011 00:01
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Well the point of the preScratch trolls' session being glitched was that they literally came out of nowhere. They were quite literally paradoxes. I don't think there is particular reason to assume that Karkat's ectobiologic products were sent to both pre- and post-Scratch universes. You would do that in order to make the preScratch troll universe make sense, which is not necessarily compulsory. That leaves the theory that John sent the clones he made to both the pre- and post- Scratch universes rest only on the "artifacts" the kid ancestors have with them, which don't necessarily need to have their existence justified through a preScratch means. Sassacre's book, the bunny, Lil Cal, they could all likely be universal constants, or they could only exist because of time loops (in a similar manner to the Cal that got passed from Bro to Jack to Alternia and back).
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Nov 14, 2011 00:11
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