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I have a German Shepherd, got it from the rescue center when it was around 1 year old. Had it for about 2 years now and it always freaks out with other dogs approaching. Tried the method in the OP with applying food stimilus and it isnt really working, she is too focussed on the other dog. This is from instant sight by the way, no particularly up close. Ironically if introduced to a dog, she can be fine and playful, but that very same dog can then invoke the same response each time it is seen. We aren't aware of any particular abuse or incidents before we got her and she does have her one or 2 'friends' that she sees regularly. Are there any other potential options to try?
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Nov 21, 2011 17:05
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Emnity posted:I have a German Shepherd, got it from the rescue center when it was around 1 year old. Had it for about 2 years now and it always freaks out with other dogs approaching. How close are you when they come into sight? Some dogs have a very, very low threshold for when they start to react to a trigger, and you might have to start with really scaling back the distance so that you can barely even see the other dog. There *will* be a point at which she can see the dog (even if only barely) but is under threshold enough that she can take food. How does she react to dogs? You say she 'freaks out': is it an excited response (omg let me play let me play!!!) or a fearful or aggressive response (barking, snarling, lunging, cowering, or any combination of those and other things)? If she can't even be on the same block or so as another dog without reacting, you're pretty limited in what you can do. Pretty much all training involves keeping her under threshold, which will mean that she is responsive, can take treats (if she normally takes treats when being walked), will look away from a thing, and so on.
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Nov 21, 2011 17:17
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Emnity posted:Tried the method in the OP with applying food stimilus and it isnt really working, she is too focussed on the other dog. This is from instant sight by the way, no particularly up close. Ironically if introduced to a dog, she can be fine and playful, but that very same dog can then invoke the same response each time it is seen. Another method I really like is Leslie McDevitt's Look At That! game (LAT for short) from her book Control Unleashed. You teach the dog to look at a novel stimulus on cue and then transfer it to LAT strange dog. It gives the dog the possibility to get information by checking out the stimulus he's worried about while also providing a clear structure what to do (look at stimulus, then reorient to handler for food). LAT works beautifully for my leash reactive older dog.
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Nov 21, 2011 17:22
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Emnity posted:I have a German Shepherd, got it from the rescue center when it was around 1 year old. Had it for about 2 years now and it always freaks out with other dogs approaching. You're going to get some other responses from folks who have more experience with reactive dogs, but what you're describing is Leash Reactivity. Check the OP for a few books to help you learn more about this. My guess is that you are on the right track as far as method, but you need help with the implementation. Based upon your brief description, it sounds like you are trying to counter condition from too close, despite the fact that you feel there is an appropriate distance. If the dog won't take food (assuming you are using something good, not plain kibble), then the dog is over threshold. You need to back up and find the tipping point and work just outside of it. It's also not clear from your post if the dog is just bounding to go and play or if it is lunging and snarling/barking. If this is beyond your ability or you don't feel up to it, consult a behaviorist or an experienced training professional. I assume you know how to select a good trainer, so I will spare you the diatribe, but just reiterate: Anyone who uses a choke chain, prong collar or other aversive control device will make this behavior 10 times worse. Go elsewhere. edit: Beaten. Get a job you jerks.
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Nov 21, 2011 17:22
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My recommendation for open bar/close bar counterconditioning is to find a big Petsmart type place with a big parking lot. If it's next to another big store like a Home Depot, even better as you can do it from the other parking lot. I mention Home Depot because they allow dogs on their premises. I live in DC so I don't have any places like that nearby, so I've resorted to parking across the street from a doggy day care center and sitting with Butters in the back seat. It's been going OK with that. If we're out in the open in the sidewalk there's way too many distractions. Edit: Try to position yourself so the other dogs will come in and out of view, like a few cars in the way in your line of sight from the entrance of the store. That way, you can do multiple 'sessions' with one dog. Dog comes around the corner = treat. Dog goes behind a car, stop treats. Dog comes back into view, treat. Etc etc. Kunabomber fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Nov 21, 2011 |
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Nov 21, 2011 18:41
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By the way, as long as your dog isn't lunging or barking, it's under threshold. You need a LOT of treats for this. Dr. Yin's example was a specific act that triggers a response. In the case of becoming aggressive when spotting another dog, a single bit of food won't help. You will need to treat your dog, one after the other, as fast as you can say treat treat treat treat treat... as long as the other dog is within view.
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Nov 21, 2011 19:01
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I need honest opinions here, please. Currently, I work the 4-12 shift, and my Wife works 8-4. This ensures there's almost always someone home with Hurley. We're due for a shift bid at work and I'm next in line for day shift (7-3). I've been wanting this for a long time, but I'm very concerned over how it will affect our dog. This won't come until January, but what would you guys do? He'll be almost a year old at that point, and has proven he can be crated for long periods of time without accidents. I feel like it would not be fair to him to be alone from 7-3:30 every day, but don't other dogs have that type of situation as well? I work in Law Enforcement so I really can't leave to come check on him mid-day.
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Nov 21, 2011 19:04
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I work full time and leave my dogs for the day and they're fine. BUT I don't crate them and I honestly wouldn't be comfortable with leaving a dog crated for that long. I know others will disagree but this is what works for us.
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Nov 21, 2011 19:05
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What kind of dogs do you have, how old are they, and how did you get them ready for that type of thing? I haven't left him un-crated yet and I'm nervous to.
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Nov 21, 2011 19:08
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Kunabomber posted:By the way, as long as your dog isn't lunging or barking, it's under threshold. This is not true. Being under threshold is a physical state wherein the dog is not in flight or fight panic mode. Being over threshold is most easily recognizable by the fact that the dog won't eat because his body is diverting resources away from the digestive track to give him a better chance of escaping. A dog that is lunging or barking or growling, but still eating, is under threshold. Obviously the logistics of feeding a lunging dog are almost impossible, so we try to limit that response, but I counter-condition my dog while she is barking/growling all the time. Barking in particular is often borderline between reactive/aggressive and merely over-excited. Since counter-conditioning does not require action from the dog, you can just keep shoveling in the treats as long as the dog keeps eating. I would also caution against bringing a dog to a store parking lot if the dog is so reactive that any dog in sight sets him off. Store parking lots are pretty unpredictable and if there are blind spots or the dog is at all weary of strangers as well, it can be too chaotic. I would only try that with an ideal set-up and a moderately reactive dog. For dogs that can't even see another dog in the far off distance, the best place to start is with barrier work and practice with a friend or trainer. If the dog is very reactive, I second seeking out a trainer who will do private work with you or perhaps has reactive dog classes. A private trainer will be able to diagnose your dog and tell you the correct course of action to take.
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Nov 21, 2011 19:13
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Kiri koli is right. My dog always stops eating before barking and lunging, so my personal barometer is when he's doing that. But there is a specific lull between accepting food to becoming aggressive. I had a few of those instances when the treat bounced off of my dog's mouth and I say 'oh poo poo...'
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Nov 21, 2011 19:16
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get out posted:What kind of dogs do you have, how old are they, and how did you get them ready for that type of thing?
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Nov 21, 2011 19:21
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get out posted:What kind of dogs do you have, how old are they, and how did you get them ready for that type of thing? I assume your wife is also unable to leave work to check on him. Could you hire a friend/family member/dog walker to stop by and let Hurley out for a bit?
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Nov 21, 2011 19:25
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Kunabomber posted:Kiri koli is right. My dog always stops eating before barking and lunging, so my personal barometer is when he's doing that. But there is a specific lull between accepting food to becoming aggressive. I had a few of those instances when the treat bounced off of my dog's mouth and I say 'oh poo poo...' You should watch for this behavior to change over time. As you work with Butters, you may find that he continues certain behaviors (barking), but his stress level has changed and he will now eat. After all the work we've done, Psyche continues to lunge and growl at certain triggers, but I can tell she is less stressed because of her body language, that I can recover her from the lunging faster, she will jump and then sit on her own sometimes, and she will eat a lot more while growling and look away more. It's funny how dogs get over things and sometimes something may not look like a positive change, but it actually is. My best example is that in the last few months, Psyche totally stopped redirecting onto me and my husband, but started grabbing and violently shaking her leash. It LOOKS terrible, but it's actually coincident with many changes that indicate positive progression. Dogs are weird.
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Nov 21, 2011 19:26
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Freakin' weird, man, freakin' weird. We did do 3 dogs with open door/closed door last week, across the street from the daycare center like I described. It's pretty good since sometimes we get a bus that stops there, which hides dogs from view, so I get to stop treating, then start again as the dog comes into view. First 2 dogs were out on the sidewalk. He did really well for the first one, got overstressed and barked and lunged on the second, which made me go inside the car and successfully have a session with one more dog. I decided to leave after that. I'll probably do the same thing this afternoon as people are picking up their dogs but no more than 2-3 dogs, inside the car.
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Nov 21, 2011 19:33
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Kiri koli posted:I would also caution against bringing a dog to a store parking lot if the dog is so reactive that any dog in sight sets him off. Store parking lots are pretty unpredictable and if there are blind spots or the dog is at all weary of strangers as well, it can be too chaotic. I would only try that with an ideal set-up and a moderately reactive dog. QFT. Lola is pretty much what I'd call moderately reactive (to humans and dogs, for different reasons) but even with that I'd be leery of bringing her into a parking lot. We go onto the main road in town and even that can be tricky enough, when I know where 98% of people/dogs will be coming from. Speaking of which Lola did good today. There was a woman out with a barking, lunging patterdale, and she was leash popping and screaming 'LEAVE IT LEAVE IT LEAVE IT' over and over at her dog, and Lola took one look at it then gave me almost full attention. They were only about 10 metres away too. Good pup 
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Nov 21, 2011 20:04
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Butters isn't human reactive so I'm lucky on that front. :/
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Nov 21, 2011 20:32
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Skizzles posted:I assume your wife is also unable to leave work to check on him. Could you hire a friend/family member/dog walker to stop by and let Hurley out for a bit? I could have my mother in law do it, but I really don't want to inconvenience her like that. She says she would do it any time, but I would just feel bad.
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Nov 21, 2011 21:42
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My parents are coming down for Thanksgiving and are staying at a hotel with two of their dogs, a Pom and a Tibetan terrier. Bailey is not awesome with other dogs; I don't think he's aggressive, but he likes to sniff and try to hump (most likely out of excitement), and these dogs are a fair bit smaller than he is. I am okay with them possibly not getting along and not allowing them to interact off leash, but is there a good way to introduce him? I was figuring on approaching from a distance, click and treat for sitting on command while watching the other dogs and approaching slowly. So, sit, slick treat, walk on, etc. until they got close enough to sniff?
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Nov 21, 2011 22:34
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get out posted:I could have my mother in law do it, but I really don't want to inconvenience her like that. She says she would do it any time, but I would just feel bad. If she's willing, have her do it a couple times a week. She might enjoy the walk. Psyche gets left for 8 hours usually 1-3 times a week and she is always crated while we're gone. I had no problem with this because she sleeps during the day a lot anyway and we give her a lot of attention otherwise.
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Nov 21, 2011 23:02
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Thanks everyone, I appreciate the advice. I'm going to seriously consider this.
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Nov 21, 2011 23:39
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wtftastic posted:My parents are coming down for Thanksgiving and are staying at a hotel with two of their dogs, a Pom and a Tibetan terrier. I guess I'd introduce in a neutral place, doing as you plan until close enough to sniff, then break them up before he can start humping. Then maybe go on a walk together, so they can relax around each other (and so they won't be pestering each other when they get back home).
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Nov 21, 2011 23:42
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Fraction posted:I guess I'd introduce in a neutral place, doing as you plan until close enough to sniff, then break them up before he can start humping. Then maybe go on a walk together, so they can relax around each other (and so they won't be pestering each other when they get back home). Oh a neutral place might be tricky. Do you think places I usually walk him are going to be too much "his" territory? Would a totally novel area be the best setting for them?
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Nov 22, 2011 03:07
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wtftastic posted:Oh a neutral place might be tricky. Do you think places I usually walk him are going to be too much "his" territory? Would a totally novel area be the best setting for them? What a dog considers his territory depends a lot on the dog, I think. If his behavior is noticeable worse around your yard/house, then I would consider him at least mildly territorial and try somewhere farther. If it's not really noticeable worse, then I wouldn't worry about it too much. I'm not very knowledgeable about the actual face-to-face interacting part, but I know a bit about leash reactivity. A leash is a very restricting thing. Dogs understand what it means for their fight or flight response and it also keeps them from using their normal behaviors to relieve tension, which leads to stress. This is why leash reactivity is common even if the dog can interact fine off-leash. Excessive sniffing and humping can be an anxiety thing as well an excitement thing. If you are going to introduce the dogs on-leash, then more important than where you do it is how you do it, I think. Dogs that are unsure of each other never approach head-on. They approach in arcs, the wider the more unsure they are. They also can exhibit calming behaviors that tell the other dog to calm down or back off. You don't want to force a dog forward when they are exhibiting calming behaviors, so look for things like turning the head, yawns, lip-lick, grass sniffing, raising a paw, etc. You can relieve pressure by allowing the dog to back away and get some distance. In our reactive dog class, we do a LOT of parallel walking. Dogs who can do parallel walking then move up to walking past each other in the opposite direction in wide arcs. Then we do exercises where the dogs walk in toward each other and then out again to relieve the pressure. I realize that Bailey is not aggressive, so you don't need to go super slowly. Just keep these things in mind and look for calming signals. Rather than approach head-on and give treats, I would probably start with a nice parallel walk with a good distance in the middle. When Bailey can focus on you more than the other dogs, then decrease the distance. Get his excitement level down, then try opposition walking in big arcs. Then if all goes well, try to let the dogs circle toward each other and greet briefly. Hopefully this will diffuse any stress caused by being on-leash and get Bailey used to the other dogs so that his excitement level is down. Then you can decide if they can keep interacting (even off-leash), if you need to work on it, or if it's better just to separate them. Good luck!
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Nov 22, 2011 03:45
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Kiri koli posted:What a dog considers his territory depends a lot on the dog, I think. If his behavior is noticeable worse around your yard/house, then I would consider him at least mildly territorial and try somewhere farther. If it's not really noticeable worse, then I wouldn't worry about it too much. That sounds like an awesome plan of attack! My parents aren't as up to date on the dog training stuff as I am, so I'll make sure to explain this to my mom ahead of time and bring some tasty treats. I assume I shouldn't use a clicker during this to avoid adding to the excitement?
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Nov 22, 2011 04:10
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wtftastic posted:That sounds like an awesome plan of attack! My parents aren't as up to date on the dog training stuff as I am, so I'll make sure to explain this to my mom ahead of time and bring some tasty treats. I've never known clickers to noticeable increase excitement in my dog*, but I guess YMMV. I absolutely adore clickers for dogs are the split second reactive. With a clicker, I can get in a click and treat as soon as a dog appears. By the time I use a verbal cue (and she recognizes it), Psyche has already started freaking out and now I'm stuck being reactive rather than proactive toward her. So I guess if you want to play any LAT or use any counter-conditioning, a clicker is great. If Bailey generally keeps it relatively level and you have plenty of time, you could forgo the clicker, I guess. I generally use it for everything important, though. *I've used the clicker so much in stressful situations where I'm calming her down, maybe she abnormally sees the clicker as calming?
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Nov 22, 2011 14:09
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I need some help training someone elses dog. Which... sounds pretty bad. And it is. They should train their own dog, but they cant or wont or they dont appreciate how loving awful their dogs are. As for me, I've had family dogs in the past, I like (Or used to like before this) dogs, but we have always had collies on huge tracts of farmland who were so incredibly good natured and well behaved (and always tired out by running all day, which helps) that I personally never had a big hand in training them. At the beginning of this year I rented a room with a couple in a big old house, they have 3 dogs, 2 small yappy terrier type things, and a shithead who is giving me endless, endless trouble. --The Dogs-- Yappy terrier 1, Dotty (Assumed to be chihuahua and jack russel cross), is lovely. Tiny and shy and shakey, she's getting old, her eyesight is starting to go, she has started to have occasional epileptic type fits that are still being investigated, and I suspect she isn't going to be around too much longer. However, completely adorable, harmless, and basically hides in her basket and shakes when the trouble kicks off. Doesn't bark at things in the garden very much. Yappy terrier 2, Coco (terrier of some stripe), is cute, but a bit boisterous. Found fairly recently abandoned as a puppy, she's seems pretty naturally good natured but also a little cocky and cheeky. This cockiness and cheekiness is getting a little more pronounced over time, and it's starting to factor into the trouble. Barks at things the garden lots. Shithead dog, Bruno, is some bizarre hybrid which is assumed to be something along the lines of a staffordshire bull terrier and a whippet. Not particularly big, looks absolutely ridiculous, waddles around in the most ridiculous way, and is a completely aggressive antisocial poo poo. Barks hysterically and furiously at everything in the garden. --The Problem, Part 1-- When I first checked out the house, the dogs barked a bit at the new person, then they came over and said hello and seemed pretty friendly. Fair enough. It's probably worth pointing out that I have a big rear end room with an ensuite, so I didn't interact particularly often with the group. I come downstairs to cook, we'll have a chat, but then I'll go back to my room cause I'm fairly self sufficient up there. This is probably part of the problem because I didn't spend a lot of time with the dogs in the first weeks. Moved in. Seemed ok. The dogs barked at noises a fair amount, and barked when I entered the house but were friendly enough once I was in, coming over for some attention and cuddles. (Including lovely bruno). Then came the day when I came in and the landlords were out. Holy poo poo. Bruno barks, a lot. And not a friendly bark, not the usual worried bark, the teeth bared, drooling, super angry bark with a snort on the front. Other dogs just watching at this point. I'm not about to buy the dog off with treats because thats just going to encourage him, commanding him to his bed had absolutely zero effect, being nice to him has no effect, so I decide to ignore him and cook dinner. That maybe helped a little. Barking decreased to growling over time. Occasionally I would drop a plate or whatever. Whenever something sudden like that happens he freaks out and rushes around me snarling and pissing, so yeah, he's obviously terrified on top of furious. Once upstairs, he starts barking furiously the minute I make any sound at all. This sucks, because I cant wander around my room without the barkpocalypse if the landlords are out. My plan,at first,was to keep ignoring him when I was home alone and downstairs, so that he would hopefully get used to my presence. (I didn't really know how to intervene, I'll be honest). At the same time when the Landlords were in and the dogs were friendly I would try and spend time with the dogs so they could get to know me and see me as a friend. It worked, over time. There were a few incidents near the beginning where the dog rushed me, but it always stopped well short of biting me. However, barking and snarling reduced to growling from basket, which is an improvement. The dogs stopped barking for the most part as I walked around upstairs, from time he might actually listen to my commands and go into his bed or come over and sit down with me while I cooked. For this he got a treat, and while he was still growling waaaay too much it was improving. So yeah. Improved. Then. --The problem, Part 2-- Coco gets older. Coco gets cocky. Coco now always does a little head tilting loving yip when bruno is growling quietly from his basket. This sets bruno the gently caress off and we are back to square one. Bruno charging around sets Coco off and now the little cute one is running around and barking at me too, she's not doing it aggressively, but it's just making bruno worse than ever when I started getting it under control. Far worse, since he has actively bitten my feet, which has seen me break my non aggression policy as I kicked him away and then roared at him and stomped around until he cowered in a corner. Which is a huge fuckup. I know I have hosed this up hugely. I'm aware now that if I wanted, I could intimidate the dog into staying away from me, but that's ultimately not solving anything. The barking when I am in the house alone but upstairs is now multiple hour long hysterics. It's amazing how stressful that can be after a while. But for all my fuckups the owners have hosed up more. I've watched them. The dogs are not nearly as aggressive with them as they are with me, sure. But they bark like loving crazy when running around in the garden, the owners do almost nothing. When they bark like loving crazy at a noise in the house they might get ignored, they might get sent to their beds to no effect, or they might, on rare occasion when someone is in a pissy mood, get an enormous screaming fit. There's no consistency at all, and they don't take nearly enough action when Bruno growls at a guest or me when I come in. --so yeah-- Huge loving post and I'm really sorry, but I'm kind of stressing out. I have no idea what to loving do, I've explained the trouble I'm having to them but I guess since they haven't seen just how aggressive Bruno is when they aren't around they aren't taking it seriously. But then, he's also really aggressive to other dogs and walkers from what I've seen, so this is hardly a problem they aren't seeing, they just aren't loving dealing with it. The worst thing, is that when the Landlords are around Bruno will bark when I come in, have a little growl, and after that he is a HUGE BABY. he comes over on his own volition and sits on my feet for cuddles. While they will bark a lot at noises and stuff once they calm down they are 3 lovely dogs. Dogs I would actually like to be around. It suuuucks. I know I've made huge mistakes. I know that every time I finish cooking and go upstairs it enforces with Bruno that barking enough at Shiney makes him go away. That's not good. I know there are things I could do and things I've done that I shouldn't have done, but theres a limit to what level I can go to with someone elses dog, and I know that anything I could teach the dog will just get undone by the weaksauce training the owners give them. Ugh. I think I'm probably hosed. but maybe you goons can suggest something. I'd leave, but economically this place is about the best I'm ever going to find. I can't really afford to move away. Holy Crap I just wrote a book about my dog problems. TLDR indeed.
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Nov 23, 2011 00:25
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Can I get some advice on biting? I have a 4 month old puppy. He is generally good about biting until he gets excited, then everything is something to bite. Ive been diverting to other toys, and more exciting things but im wondering if there is anything else I can do, or any other suggestions? He is still new to me and has only been with me week. The other question I had was what is the best way to discourage barking? I know he will bark but I would like it if he kept it to a minimum. Also, kongs are a godsend. This is the first moment of rest ive had in the few hours I have been home. Is there a recommended or good puppy treat I can use? Id like to see what he responds best to. Right now he is in love with pupperoni but I use that for crate training because its super awesome and delicous and oh god oh god Ill gladly get into my crate.
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Nov 23, 2011 01:16
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So my loving cat has broken my dog  In the last week, the cat has managed to bring chairs crashing down near-ish the dogs crate twice, and some other misc. stuff in the same general vicinity. Asa is now terrified to go into her crate, and shivers and whines horridly if we even think of making her stay in it. This literally started last night - and I did the stupid thing of effectively forcing her into her crate. Now she is just freaked out by it and I feel like the worst dog owner ever. She is good with her crate at work though, so its not crates in general, just this one. I've moved it, I washed it and changed the cushion in it, I covered it and tucked it into a safe, clean corner. And I spent about an hour feeding her treats and kibble, coated in peanut butter, counter-conditioning her. At least she'll go into the loving thing now, but she just goes in, gets treat, and walks out of it. Is there anything else I can do? I feel loving horrible. I'm going to leave her loose in a small bedroom for tonight where she (hopefully) can't get into anything, but she's not 100% out-of-crate. Thanks in advance,
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Nov 23, 2011 04:24
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ShineDog posted:Then came the day when I came in and the landlords were out. Holy poo poo. Bruno barks, a lot. And not a friendly bark, not the usual worried bark, the teeth bared, drooling, super angry bark with a snort on the front. Other dogs just watching at this point. I'm not about to buy the dog off with treats because thats just going to encourage him, commanding him to his bed had absolutely zero effect, being nice to him has no effect, so I decide to ignore him and cook dinner. You won't be 'buying the dog off' with treats, but you will be using a lot of treats if you really want to work through this. It sounds like Bruno was reacting to fear ('oh god there's a stranger in the house alone what do i do, here i'll bark and maybe it'll go away'). ShineDog posted:That maybe helped a little. Barking decreased to growling over time. Occasionally I would drop a plate or whatever. Whenever something sudden like that happens he freaks out and rushes around me snarling and pissing, so yeah, he's obviously terrified on top of furious. Dogs don't really "get" furious. He's just scared of you. So yes, when you made sudden, loud noises, that startled him into thinking of you as a hugely terrifying thing again. ShineDog posted:] Bruno didn't bite you because he had no desire to. The behaviour he was showing was classical fear reactivity stuff - it's a huge display (barking, snarling, lunging, air-snapping, etc) that is designed to make you go away without actually having to make contact with you. The continued growling even after ignoring him was because he was feeling uneasy and stressed; growling isn't necessarily an aggressive vocalisation, just a way of a dog saying 'i do not like what is happening, please stop'. ShineDog posted:Coco gets older. Coco gets cocky. Coco now always does a little head tilting loving yip when bruno is growling quietly from his basket. This sets bruno the gently caress off and we are back to square one. Bruno charging around sets Coco off and now the little cute one is running around and barking at me too, she's not doing it aggressively, but it's just making bruno worse than ever when I started getting it under control. Coco isn't being 'cocky'. She's just reacting to all the stress and excitement. You said she was at least part terrier - and terriers react to everything at all stimulating by barking at it. That is what they are bred to do. ShineDog posted:Far worse, since he has actively bitten my feet, which has seen me break my non aggression policy as I kicked him away and then roared at him and stomped around until he cowered in a corner. I know you now know this was a really stupid idea, but yes. Terrifying a scared dog is pretty much THE worst thing you could have done. Do not do it again. --- ShineDog posted:Ugh. I think I'm probably hosed. but maybe you goons can suggest something. I have some questions: 1. How much exercise are these dogs getting, each and every day? 2. Do the owners do any training at all with the dogs? 3. What training methods do the owners use? 4. Who feeds, walks and plays with the dogs? 5. How much time and energy are *you* willing to put into trying to solve this problem? Depending on how these questions go (particularly the last), will effect the suggestions I can offer. I have some ideas but firstly I need to know just how much time you can/will put into this problem, because this is a HUGE thing that is going to need a LOT of energy to fix.
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Nov 23, 2011 11:03
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Drumstick posted:Can I get some advice on biting? I have a 4 month old puppy. He is generally good about biting until he gets excited, then everything is something to bite. Ive been diverting to other toys, and more exciting things but im wondering if there is anything else I can do, or any other suggestions? If he bites you, yelp or squeal like a hurt puppy and IMMEDIATELY ignore him after. Most dogs will stop, and will quickly learn that biting you is painful and will instantly end play. Some dogs will try to bite you more or jump on you when you yelp; if he does that, walk slowly and calmly out of the room and stay out of the room for 5-10 seconds, then re-enter. He'll get the message pretty fast. Drumstick posted:The other question I had was what is the best way to discourage barking? I know he will bark but I would like it if he kept it to a minimum. When is he barking? That will pretty much determine how to go about stopping it. Drumstick posted:Also, kongs are a godsend. This is the first moment of rest ive had in the few hours I have been home. Is there a recommended or good puppy treat I can use? Id like to see what he responds best to. Right now he is in love with pupperoni but I use that for crate training because its super awesome and delicous and oh god oh god Ill gladly get into my crate. Not necessarily a recommended puppy treat, but: Some ideas for kong fillings: - Kibble and gravy, frozen. - Cheese and ham and kibble. - Peanut butter and kibble. - Dog biscuits, cheese and peanut butter. (You can freeze any of these to make them last longer, too. I prefer to use kibble in kongs as the 'bulk' of it, and then have something delicious to make it stick and hard to get out.) Ideas for other treats: - Pig ears. - Rabbit ears. - Dried tripe. - Bull pizzles. - Chicken feet. (You can get a lot of these at decent big pet stores or online, along with other things.) Siochain posted:So my loving cat has broken my dog Wow, your cat sucks. I think you're just going to have to keep what you're doing - slowly conditioning to the crate, as if she was new to it again. You can probably pick up speed after a few sessions, but to begin with you're pretty much going to have to take it as if she's a puppy that has never been in there. I'd also make sure the cat can't get around where her crate will be in future, because you really don't want a repeat of this.
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Nov 23, 2011 11:18
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Fraction posted:I have some questions: 1. They get a walk morning and in the early evening, I don't really know how far, I'd guess at about an hour or so. They also have a big garden that they usually have the run of. 2. I've never seen them take the dogs to training classes, or do training sessions with the dogs. When the dogs act up their response seems really inconsistent. The dogs bark at every loving thing when they are out in the garden and it usually doesn't get a reaction from the owners. I cannot imagine what the neighbours think. 3. See above. I did ominously find a zappy collar thing buried deep in a drawer once, but I've never seen it used. 4. The owners walk them, but I always make sure and fuss over/play with the dogs when the owners are in. Because they are really friendly if the owners are in. 5. Willing, but not entirely sure about able. The owners are in most of the time and I don't think they would appreciate me trying to train their dog. Ultimately though I want to be able to go upstairs and chill on the sofa without Bruno in hysterics downstairs. The lack of any peace if the owners are out is my big issue, more than getting attacked when I'm downstairs trying to cook. (New method. Carry one of those bag for life style giant shopping bags downstairs with some filler in it and place it at my feet. Dog cannot pass it to snap at ankles. Dog keeps distance.) More things. I've been here about a year now, just so you know that the dogs are not unfamiliar with me at this point. The incident where I got pissed off at the dog was a month ago. Coco only started involving herself about, what, 2 months ago. I'm not sure why it started because Coco has historically been a friendly dog. I am pretty certain the previous tenant moved out because of the dog. There is a second tenant in an annex who only comes into the main house to use the washing machine. This lady also has trouble with the barking dog, but he isn't nearly as aggressive. This pattern repeats, not so bad with the cleaner, really loving awful with the landlords employee (they run a biz from home) if he gets left alone. I think the dog has a problem with men.
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Nov 23, 2011 12:55
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quote:1. They get a walk morning and in the early evening, I don't really know how far, I'd guess at about an hour or so. They also have a big garden that they usually have the run of. So about two hours a day, ish? That's pretty surprising - it sounds like they need way more exercise than that, especially if they're running around barking madly in the garden. quote:2. I've never seen them take the dogs to training classes, or do training sessions with the dogs. When the dogs act up their response seems really inconsistent. The dogs bark at every loving thing when they are out in the garden and it usually doesn't get a reaction from the owners. I cannot imagine what the neighbours think. Hmm. How much time do the owners spend interacting with the dogs, do you know? Is it just like dogs and owners generally in same room, and dogs walked twice a day and otherwise pretty much ignored, or do they do a lot of activities with them? quote:5. Willing, but not entirely sure about able. The owners are in most of the time and I don't think they would appreciate me trying to train their dog. Would you be able to sit down and talk to them; and outline what the problem is, what the plan is to try and combat it, etc? Would they be open to that? --- Okay, so. This next bit will be tl;dr suggestions for what you could try. (Obviously I can't say 'this will work exactly' because I'm not in this situation, but I do deal with my own fearful dog and this is what I would want somebody else to do.) It might be worth a try. Bruno is very fearful and anxious about you being there when his owners are not there, but is much friendlier when they are there. I think this is because he feels safer with them there - like you aren't a threat if his owners are there to protect him/back him up. I also think that the problems you're having with Coco will be helped by going through everything. Because Bruno thinks you're a threat, what you need to do is use classical conditioning to make him change his mind. This essentially means that every time he sees you, he gets awesome food. Since it's probably unlikely that his owners will actively get involved to help if they're just letting the dogs run around and bark at everything, you'll have to do it all yourself. So, step by step plan when the owners are in: - Get a lot of high value food (aka, food that Bruno goes crazy for and will do anything for). Good examples are very small pieces of cheese, cooked chicken, hotdog, and ham. - Set up a situation so that you can appear and disappear to the dogs without them following you. The best option would be to have them in a room with a closed door. - If following the above situation, open the door and (gently) throw a handful of food into the room, regardless of whether or not they are barking or growling at you. How they react to you isn't the concern at this point. Close the door immediately after doing so. - Do the above again. I'd recommend doing that step in groups of three, fifteen times a day, for at least three days. (So fifteen times a day, you'll be opening the door, throwing food in, closing the door, waiting 30-60 sections, opening the door, throwing food in, closing, waiting, opening, throwing, closing, and going). This is your foundations, so you cannot rush it. - After three days, you should find that the dogs will respond slightly differently to you. Maybe they'll only bark at you on the first rep in the group, or maybe they won't bark at all. Maybe they'll move forward, eagerly wanting the food. You should see some sort of difference at this point though. - Move on to taking a step into the room. Again, sets of three, fifteen times a day, for at least two days. - Next move on to taking two steps into the room, food, then retreat and wait. Sets of three, fifteen times, for at least two days. - Three steps into the room. Sets of three, fifteen times, for at least a day. - At this point, you will definitely notice a difference in the dogs, because they'll have made the association that your entry into a room = awesome fun times. You can start to reduce the amount of food thrown at a time: e.g. only half a handful each time. Note: If at any time you have to go downstairs outside of doing reps and will encounter the dogs, you need to leave a constant trail of food. This means every couple of seconds, drop a piece of food. Otherwise you risk screwing up your foundation. - Start waiting a few seconds when you enter a room. Three steps in, a second wait, throw half a handful of food. Sets of three, 15x a day, minimum one day. I'm sure by now you get the idea: that this will take a long time. Fear really isn't something you can just get rid of with a magic wand, because it is deeply ingrained in the dog. You will need to build it up so that you can be in the room for a couple of minutes, moving around, throwing at least half a handful of food at a time before you can start putting the food on an intermittent schedule (e.g. sometimes when you enter a room you only drop on the floor six or seven pieces of food; sometimes you might drop in two huge handfuls; sometimes they get nothing at all). When you reach that point, you'll move on to starting at the very, very beginning when nobody else is in. But like I say this will take a while - I'd imagine it'll take at least five or six weeks--of doing a lot of repetitions every day, of never staring the dogs down or raising your voice in their presence--before you can move on to doing all of this over again when the owners aren't in. It's a very, very demanding task though.
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Nov 23, 2011 13:30
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Fraction posted:
Okay, figured. She slept closed in a bedroom last night just fine, so a few weeks of crate-games and counter-conditioning it is. She actually stepped all the way in the crate to eat her breakfast this morning, so progress, huzzah :P And yes, I need to figure out somewhere I can at least get some peace and quiet for the dog...small house though, and lovely layout, so I can't really isolate her somewhere. May end up putting it in the "guest bedroom" (aka our crap room), where at least I can close the door. Hopefully give her a few weeks of peace and happiness. Otherwise, just going to keep everything within 20 feet of the crate, well, not there heh.
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Nov 23, 2011 14:38
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ShineDog posted:A whole lot of poo poo No one on this forum is really qualified to help you with this problem, and we're not the resource that you need. If you've lashed out at the dog and there have been bites, then the problem is already relatively serious. My advice to you is to confront your landlords about the problem and ask if they can get some help from a professional. Assuming you are in the states, you want to look for someone who is using the title "Applied Animal Behaviorist" or "Veterinary Behaviorist." Anyone can claim to be a behaviorist or dog trainer, but those two titles will give you someone who actually knows what they're talking about. If anyone gets involved that uses or recommends the use of an aversive collar or device, they will make the problem worse. If the above is not an option, you can either move out or counter-condition your presence to be a positive thing for the dogs. This is easy but time consuming. Find a treat they like and every time you see them, you Make It Rain(tm). Don't attempt to psycho-analyze the dog until you do a lot of research -- dogs are not people and their emotional range is limited. They are just doing what they believe is their job, and that's the result of poor training by their owners, not the fault of the dogs. Drumstick posted:Can I get some advice on biting? I have a 4 month old puppy. He is generally good about biting until he gets excited, then everything is something to bite. Ive been diverting to other toys, and more exciting things but im wondering if there is anything else I can do, or any other suggestions? He is still new to me and has only been with me week. The other question I had was what is the best way to discourage barking? I know he will bark but I would like it if he kept it to a minimum. Look at this as an opportunity to train him about bite inhibition. If he never bites anything, he doesn't know how hard to bite. People don't realize that dog bites are very well controlled. If the dog doesn't break the skin, that's intentional. Our golden retriever started out mouthing heavily and fairly hard when she got aroused during play. We attacked this on several fronts and today she is fairly good. She will occasionally mouth softly when she is in a state of high arousal, but it's unusual. 1) Encourage licking rather than biting -- smear frozen butter or peanut butter on your hands/arms to encourage the behavior. Praise and reward when it occurs occasionally. Make this more rewarding than biting. 2) Divert to toys when appropriate -- You're doing this, just shove something in his mouth if you need to. 3) Anytime teeth touch skin, you stand up and stare at the ceiling for 10-15 seconds. If the puppy calms down, play can resume, if not, walk slowly out of the room and out of sight for at least 30 seconds. Teeth = game over man, technical foul. As far as treats go, at that age you will be using them liberally and you don't want your puppy to resemble the turkey on the table tomorrow, so the recommendation is to use kibble if you can. You can also check out Charlee Bears -- get them at PetSmart and PetCo. Very low calorie treats so they can be used frequently, but do keep an eye on the calorie intake of your dog.
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Nov 23, 2011 16:06
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Cross-posted from the "Questions not deserving their own thread" thread (I figured this is more of a training situation anyway).fistful of hammers posted:I need some advice regarding separation anxiety. I work at a pet rescue, and we took in three whippet/IG mix pups a month or two ago from a puppy mill. One of the pups, Rossi, is very outgoing and spunky, while his brother, Costa, is very sensitive (the third went home already). They're about 4 months old.
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Nov 23, 2011 17:08
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MrFurious posted:No one on this forum is really qualified to help you with this problem, and we're not the resource that you need. If you've lashed out at the dog and there have been bites, then the problem is already relatively serious. My advice to you is to confront your landlords about the problem and ask if they can get some help from a professional. Assuming you are in the states, you want to look for someone who is using the title "Applied Animal Behaviorist" or "Veterinary Behaviorist." Anyone can claim to be a behaviorist or dog trainer, but those two titles will give you someone who actually knows what they're talking about. If anyone gets involved that uses or recommends the use of an aversive collar or device, they will make the problem worse. Well, dog bribing is temporarily effective. I have up until now been hesitant to hand out treats unless the dog came over and was friendly, because I was under the impression that I'm basically rewarding him for barking at me. But gently caress it, I can leave a trail of cheap cheese everywhere I walk.
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Nov 23, 2011 20:03
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ShineDog posted:Well, dog bribing is temporarily effective. I have up until now been hesitant to hand out treats unless the dog came over and was friendly, because I was under the impression that I'm basically rewarding him for barking at me. No, you are incorrect and your statement is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of canine behavior. I continue to recommend seeking professional help.
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Nov 23, 2011 20:06
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MrFurious posted:No, you are incorrect and your statement is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of canine behavior. I continue to recommend seeking professional help. I would love to. It isn't up to me though, (I wasn't arguing that I was wrong about this, just mentioning why I wasn't doing it before.)
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Nov 23, 2011 22:56
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Thanks for the advice! The yelping when he bites has really been effective.
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Nov 25, 2011 15:08
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