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I'm confident we'll hear no more about this in 2012.
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Nov 23, 2011 11:31
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Kvantum posted:Now the question here is can Ryan Dancey create a working MMO or not. Sadly, my money is on the "no" as well. While I agree that a VTT would make more sense for their current customer base, I think you guys are being more negative than things warrant. There seems to be a lot of self proclaimed experts on how an MMO can be successful. I would point out that a number of MMO launches that have been successful have been done by companies and teams that had no prior titles to their credit. Dancey seemed to have no problems as the marketing director at CCP. Whether that experience will translate into that of a CEO for an MMO developer remains to be seen... I would think you would generally want the head to be have experience in software development, not just marketing. If I recall, CCP's CEO is a former coder. Apparently, so is Dancey, albeit his resume doesn't show any online game dev experience. ProfessorCirno posted:They literally don't have any experience whatsoever with any sort of video game programming. At all. None. And they're jumping into making their own MMORPG. MadScientistWorking posted:Actually in their defense they have a guy who worked on City of Heroes and for some strange reason also on the World of Darkness MMO. Mark Kalmes seems pretty well qualified to work on this project. He worked on City of Heroes, was a lead coder on City of Villains, and was the coding manager for Champions Online. As for his work on WoD, he left that 2 years ago, so he at least has a history of knowing when something is not going right. If anything, that should show he wouldn't sign on with Paizo if it was simply a pipe dream. He obviously has the experience to put a team together. mixitwithblop fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Nov 23, 2011 |
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Nov 23, 2011 11:33
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mixitwithblop posted:While I agree that a VTT would make more sense for their current customer base, I think you guys are being more negative than things warrant. There seems to be a lot of self proclaimed experts on how an MMO can be successful. I would point out that a number of MMO launches that have been successful have been done by companies and teams that had no prior titles to their credit. Great grogquotes. Where are they from?
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Nov 23, 2011 15:39
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gtrmp posted:and [EVE Online] remains in development limbo thanks to unrelated issues involving gross mismanagement that all but crippled the publisher via managerial arrogance. I maintain that the management of EVE Online was infected by the toxic environment of the MMO that they were hired to manage. They started treating the players like the players treated each other.
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Nov 23, 2011 16:40
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mixitwithblop posted:Dancey seemed to have no problems as the marketing director at CCP. Whether that experience will translate into that of a CEO for an MMO developer remains to be seen... I would think you would generally want the head to be have experience in software development, not just marketing. If I recall, CCP's CEO is a former coder. Apparently, so is Dancey, albeit his resume doesn't show any online game dev experience. Dancey was poo poo-canned from CCP after a massive wave of gently caress-ups in EVE, including the somewhat vaunted Monocle disaster.
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Nov 23, 2011 23:30
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Every time I hear about a MMO launching, I think back to this article, where a MMO industry veteran compares starting a MMO to launching a space shuttle in terms of technical complexity http://www.eldergame.com/2009/05/how-to-find-an-mmo-job-that-doesnt-suck/
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Nov 23, 2011 23:45
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ProfessorCirno posted:including the somewhat vaunted Monocle disaster. What's this?
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Nov 24, 2011 02:34
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Meepo posted:What's this? Microtransactions, except they forgot the "micro" part, and created, among other things, a monacle that cost about $70 worth of in-game stuff. That's seven tens, more than the price of a full game on today's market. Ok, so it's ludicrously expensive, but some people spend money on stupid poo poo just to prove they have money to spend (ostentatious consumption and the like). But then you get the punchline: Since this is a spaceship game, the one of the few times you see your character model is in the Captain's Quarters, where other people can't go. So you spent $70 on a vanity piece that had a high chance of not being seen by anyone other than you. And there were leaked documents suggesting that the company might roll out items that provided an in-game advantage, purchased with real money to favor those who wanted to pay-to-win. Players rioted.
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Nov 24, 2011 02:49
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As someone that usually defends Paizo's business decisions (if not the actual mechanics of their game), but who also sits and makes fun of people paying to play vaporware betas in the MMO HMO, I don't exactly know where I stand on this. MMO's are stupidly hard to make, and they are basically using the guy who completely did not understand what players wanted in EVE. I mean, we've been making fun of this guy for months in the EVE threads.
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Nov 24, 2011 07:30
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LightWarden posted:Microtransactions, except they forgot the "micro" part, and created, among other things, a monacle that cost about $70 worth of in-game stuff. That's seven tens, more than the price of a full game on today's market. Well I haven't played Eve in a few years but hah that is beautiful - not unexcepted from CCP at all given their track record but there is a bright side of course. There are many more tears to be shed if the buyable items are lost when you die. Imagine some highsec pleb in his shiny expensive ship with shiny expensive implants suicide ganked - oh the tears! Also, has anyone played DDO at all? It's not a bad game, but it does (thankfully) take certain liberties with the 3.5e system. Some of the content, especially first time through, is really quite good - can anyone expect Paizo to do better?
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Nov 24, 2011 15:15
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Jinx posted:There are many more tears to be shed if the buyable items are lost when you die. If it can go in a cargo hold it can, and will, be lost.
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Nov 24, 2011 17:46
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Mark Kalmes is basically the only reason I have any hope this will get beyond the vaporware stage, since it means they've at least got a chance of getting past the thing that kills new would-be MMOs. They have someone on staff who knows what's actually involved with building a functional MMO, knows how huge and time/effort-consuming the coding is, and can tell them so when someone says "oh, well, we'll just throw something together". So that's one of, say, two dozen project-killing pitfalls avoided, assuming he learned anything from the successful MMO launch he was on and anyone listens to him.
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Nov 24, 2011 17:56
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Companies full of skilled and experienced people, have been trying to produce successful MMO for a decade now. There's been maybe a dozen overall successes in that entire time. They don't have a single person who can get this past vaporware. If they did, he'd be knowledgeable enough in the industry to have aborted it already.
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Nov 24, 2011 21:21
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moths posted:Companies full of skilled and experienced people, have been trying to produce successful MMO for a decade now. There's been maybe a dozen overall successes in that entire time. You'll note I didn't say I thought they could get it done - just that they do at least have someone who is aware firsthand of how dauntingly huge a project it is from a technical standpoint, which is one more than most "we're gonna make an MMO!  " teams have going for them.That said: Paizo blog posted:Do you want to build a castle that you own and control? Go for it. Want to start a town and rally folks to your banner? Do that. Do you want to ally with the neighboring villages to form a new nation—or perhaps wage war on them instead? The choice is yours. Want to become the most feared bandit in the River Kingdoms? The path is available. Want to become the greatest armorer that Golarion has ever seen? All it takes is hard work. If you can imagine doing something in the world of Golarion, we want you to be able to do that in Pathfinder Online. makes my "'idea person' promising things they have no idea how to deliver for their imagined MMO" sense tingle.
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Nov 24, 2011 21:30
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That's my point. The guy who should know enough to stop this poo poo green-lighted it. e:  It seems to me that they'll "work" on it for a year, cash a lot of paychecks, then announce cancellation. Nobody gets mad or upset because hey, MMOs are a tough market to break into.
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Nov 24, 2011 21:34
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Good news! Ryan Dancey has posted his vision of the Pathfinder MMORPG!Ryan Dancey posted:In my perfect world, Pathfinder Online will be to EVE Online what World of Warcraft was to EverQuest. That is, the game that came after the game that solved a lot of hard problems but left a path for development towards accessibility and fun.
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Nov 24, 2011 23:31
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On a non-MMO subject: Which country in Golarion has no magic. Is it Andoran? Forgot the name of it and everything I'm looking up doesn't mention it.
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Nov 25, 2011 08:09
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Swags posted:On a non-MMO subject: Which country in Golarion has no magic. Is it Andoran? Forgot the name of it and everything I'm looking up doesn't mention it. You're probably thinking of Alkenstar, which is a city-state in the dead magic zone between Nex and Geb. You might also be thinking of Rahadoum, the country where religion and consequently divine magic is banned.
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Nov 25, 2011 09:54
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ProfessorCirno posted:Good news! Ryan Dancey has posted his vision of the Pathfinder MMORPG! Why would he even consider comparing a prospective Pathfinder game to EVE?
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Nov 25, 2011 17:01
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Maybe you'll be able to murder and steal from your party members. At least that's how our Kingmaker campaign is shaping up.
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Nov 25, 2011 18:55
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Gearhead posted:Why would he even consider comparing a prospective Pathfinder game to EVE? EVE is the MMO he worked on as marketing director ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Nov 26, 2011 |
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Nov 26, 2011 00:01
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Love it or hate it, EVE is basically the closest I've seen an MMO get to being a sandbox (and I played UO before the Felucia/Trammel split).
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Nov 26, 2011 01:34
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Love it or hate it, EVE is basically the closest I've seen an MMO get to being a sandbox (and I played UO before the Felucia/Trammel split). ...Ok, but Dancey is the past marketing director because he was fired, and during his run CCP lost a lot of players in both EVE and in their tabletop games.
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Nov 26, 2011 02:52
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ProfessorCirno posted:...Ok, but Dancey is the past marketing director because he was fired, and during his run CCP lost a lot of players in both EVE and in their tabletop games. Right, but I think the point is that give that PFO is being claimed as a sandbox game (to a frankly bullshit-sounding degree) it makes sense to cite EVE as a game to draw inspiration from even aside from it being a game the guy got fired from.
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Nov 26, 2011 09:15
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I think it's more likely that they're using EVE because that's where Dancey used to work. If he worked for Blizzard, I gurantee they'd be making a WoW-clone.
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Nov 26, 2011 09:54
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I do think that there are relevant parallels to be drawn. I mean, a lot of early EvE was pretty much copied from Ultima Online (and I say this as both a huge fan and player of UO and EvE, and I do consider this actually a good thing). What I do believe is that a very, very few of the PF fans actually want that kind of gameplay. Just look at how they're justifying using the 'evil' alignment to punish PvP 'griefers'. I have run into way too many players interested in "emergent gameplay" who turned around and launched tirades against anybody who played the game in a way that made sense. It's always really interesting how many players want to take their ball and go home.
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Nov 26, 2011 10:25
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ProfessorCirno posted:I think it's more likely that they're using EVE because that's where Dancey used to work. If he worked for Blizzard, I gurantee they'd be making a WoW-clone. I guarantee they're going to do that anyways.
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Nov 27, 2011 06:20
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gtrmp posted:I guarantee they're going to do that anyways. That's implying that this game has any shot of seeing a line of code written.
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Nov 27, 2011 12:58
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Subjective question time! What's the most fun Level 2 Character I could play for a one shot? Obviously the low level doesn't allow for much design creativity, but is there anything that perhaps really shines at the extreme low levels but drops off later?
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Nov 29, 2011 14:17
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At level 2 you'd be hard pressed to find a higher damage/round than a TWF fighter. If you're human for the bonus feat you could go Rogue1/Fighter1 and be pretty silly. depending on how min/max-y you want to be you could realistically be rolling a +7 to hit and have an AC in the low 20s. Everyone else is going to tell you to play a wizard. Tactical Bonnet fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Nov 29, 2011 |
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Nov 29, 2011 14:52
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Sorceror, Fey Bloodline, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Sleep.
LongDarkNight fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Nov 29, 2011 |
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Nov 29, 2011 15:06
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LongDarkNight posted:Sorceror, Fey Bloodline, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Sleep. Can't he play a human for the bonus feat to get Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment for another +1 to making the DM cry?
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Nov 29, 2011 15:47
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I was searching the SRD for a feat that would give a bonus to Coup de grace attacks, but the only one I found requires 10 levels of Rogue. So GSF is the better choice. Or for comedy roll an Elf and use your Sleep immunity to drop the spell on top of yourself.
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Nov 29, 2011 16:04
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An oracle with the Heavens mystery and Awesome Display owns face pretty hard at level 2. Max your charisma, crank up the save DC with feats, and demolish things with several times your EL with Color Spray. It's a bonus spell known so it doesn't even significantly cut into your ability to do other spellcasting. The sleep sorcerer is better at reliably cutting down swathes of enemies of appropriate level, but a heavens oracle is unmatched at taking down things you really shouldn't be able to handle yet at level 2. Benly fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Nov 29, 2011 |
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Nov 29, 2011 17:59
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LongDarkNight posted:
I take back everything I said, do this.
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Nov 29, 2011 18:03
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Benly posted:An oracle with the Heavens mystery and Awesome Display owns face pretty hard at level 2. Max your charisma, crank up the save DC with feats, and demolish things with several times your EL with Color Spray. It's a bonus spell known so it doesn't even significantly cut into your ability to do other spellcasting. Looks like my girlfriend and I are going to play one of each. This is going to be awesome, thanks goons!
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Nov 29, 2011 20:00
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It's not going to be awesome for your DM.
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Nov 30, 2011 02:04
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A sleep + charm hex Witch with accursed hex (to try again on a successful save) is pretty beautiful at low level, and also any level. Start with 20 int, advance to old age for +2 intelligence and spam DC 17 save-or-lose effects all day long!
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Nov 30, 2011 03:35
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Tactical Bonnet posted:At level 2 you'd be hard pressed to find a higher damage/round than a TWF fighter. If you're human for the bonus feat you could go Rogue1/Fighter1 and be pretty silly. depending on how min/max-y you want to be you could realistically be rolling a +7 to hit and have an AC in the low 20s. Would you mind giving me a little more insight to this? We need to have someone to actually kill the unconscious/blind/stunned goblins!
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Nov 30, 2011 19:00
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Klungar posted:Would you mind giving me a little more insight to this? We need to have someone to actually kill the unconscious/blind/stunned goblins! For coup de grace'ing you would probably want a 2 handed fighter using Power Attack and Furious Focus to increase the chances of insta-gibbing or causing a really high death save DC (it's a Fort save DC=10+damage dealt or die). You could also be an elf instead of a human for the option of ignoring the magical sleep if you're in the area. You take Power Attack, Furious Focus and Weapon Focus: Greataxe as your feats, which all give you +1 to hit and +3 to damage total. If your strength is 18 as a Fighter, at level 2 you'd have +7 to hit and deal 1d12+9 damage per hit. Your coup de grace's automatically hit and crit, so with a Greataxe you would roll 3d12+27. So if the goblins somehow survive a minimum 30 damage in dream land, they then need to make a Fort save DC 40 (minimum) to live. E: the weapon focus/furious focus are to help optimize versus whoever makes their save.
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Nov 30, 2011 22:03
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