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Tiggy Sawdust posted:And now we know that Jade and Jane share the same insanity gene. The best insanity gene. Also one of the milder ones exhibited by the Homestuck cast.
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Nov 24, 2011 05:02
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Dolash posted:So I guess when John grows up he's going to have a terrible mustache and look like a great big cornball?
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Nov 24, 2011 05:08
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Oh no John's arm. : ( I wonder if this means that if (okay, when, seriously that's going to happen, right?) we'll have the same one arm motif that there was in the kid's session. Except it was the other arm?
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Nov 24, 2011 06:07
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Poppop just lost an arm.  Is this preparations for poppopsprite?Edit: I assume all prototypings will be mirrored in this universe, like the sburb logo was.
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Nov 24, 2011 06:08
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tinaun posted:Poppop just lost an arm. The technical term is flipped turn-ways. You got to FLIP it [the whole universe] man, TURN-WAYS Wow now that I think about it we've already seen that happen in Problem Sleuth, too, in a way.
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Nov 24, 2011 06:12
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tinaun posted:Poppop just lost an arm. Of course! Bro will prototype "himself" (glasses), Mom will prototype Mutini, Jake himself I guess.
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Nov 24, 2011 06:15
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And that's why you don't take your poppop's book.
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Nov 24, 2011 06:17
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KoB posted:Of course! Bro will prototype "himself" (glasses), Mom will prototype Mutini, Jake himself I guess. Yeah, who would Jake prototype? Assuming he doesn't die?
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Nov 24, 2011 06:19
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marsattacks posted:Yeah, who would Jake prototype? Assuming he doesn't die? Lord English
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Nov 24, 2011 06:22
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The scratched universe's John has pre-scratch John's copy of Sassacre. What is up with thaaaat?
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Nov 24, 2011 06:27
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I think the red herring being given here is that stuffed John is our John. Oh noooooooo
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Nov 24, 2011 06:36
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Seoinin posted:The scratched universe's John has pre-scratch John's copy of Sassacre. What is up with thaaaat? This is very simple, in theory, but hard to explain. Let's use the B1 and B2 universe naming convention of the story, okay? In the B1 universe (pre-scratch) John used ectobiology to create both all eight babies. Each had an item. John got the Sassacre book, Nanna got Dad's Hat, Jade got a version of the bunny, Grandpa got two pistols, Rose got a version of the bunny, Mom got Vodka Mutini, Dave got the pony, and Bro got Cal. These all were then launched on meteors back in time. The important thing to remember is that those same meteors went to both the B1 and B2 sessions, just in a different order In the B1 universe, Nanna, Grandpa, Mom, and Bro got sent do the farther past, and John, Jade, Rose, and Dave got sent to the near past. This made the former the Guardians, and the latter the Heroes. (In this version of the universe: - Nanna landed near Colonel Sassacre's house and was raised by the Batterwitch. She started a family, conceived Dad, and then was killed when a meteor struck her Joke Shop. - Grandpa also landed near Colonel Sassacre's house, and accidentally killed the Colonel with his pistols upon landing. He was also raised by the batterwitch, until he ran away with the family dog and became a multimillionaire adventurer who inherited the Betty Crocker corporation. He later died by his own pistols, thanks, in part, to Jade and Tavros. - Bro...we don't know much about. He arrived with Cal, and it probably inspired his love of puppets. - Mom...we don't know much about. She arrived with Vodka Mutini, and he was probably one of the parents of Rose's cat. Or inspired Mom to be a scientist, who knows. - John's meteor hit Nanna's Joke Shop and killed Nanna. Dad raised John as his own. - Jade's meteor hit Betty Crocker's factory and was found by Grandpa when he went to investigate. He raised her on his private island until he died. - Dave landed near Bro, who raised him. - Rose landed in the lake near Mom, who raised her. ) In the B2 universe, John (Poppop), Jade, Rose, and Dave got sent do the farther past, and Nanna (Jane), Grandpa (Jake), Mom (?), and Bro (?) got sent to the near past. This made the former the Guardians, and the latter the Heroes. (In this version of the universe: - John landed near Colonel Sassacre's house, where he was raised by the Batterwitch. One could guess that in this version, the Colonel was killed by his own plummeting joke book, held by John. He became a old-timey comedian, the judge on Night Court, and eventually died (via Jane) and was stuffed, still holding the book he arrived with. - Jade landed near the Colonel's house, and we don't know what happened to her after that. Perhaps she also ran away and became rich, since she ended up on the same island. - Dave...? - Rose...? - Jane landed and killed John "Poppop" Crocker, and is now in line to inherit the Crocker corporation. - Jake landed somewhere that meant he ended up with old Jade. Presumably he shot her with his pistols almost instantly. - Bro arrived with Cal, but a few years later. This seems to have meant his interest is not in puppets, but in robots. - Mom arrived with Vodka Mutini and seems to have been inspired by it. She's a hacker and the opening flash showed she's experimenting with ectobiology. ) So to answer your question: The reason that John has that book is that baby John had that book in both universes B1 and B2, but the message only makes sense in universe B1, which is why B2-Jane is confused. Bobulus fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Nov 24, 2011 |
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Nov 24, 2011 06:47
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annatar posted:I think the red herring being given here is that stuffed John is our John. Oh noooooooo Did he even have the book with him last time we saw him, though?
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Nov 24, 2011 07:34
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President Ark posted:Did he even have the book with him last time we saw him, though? It was written by Nanna-sprite, delivered into the ecto lab by Grandpa Harley, recovered by Dad and was last seen (as remembered by me) being used by an ogre.
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Nov 24, 2011 08:46
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marsattacks posted:Yeah, who would Jake prototype? Assuming he doesn't die? Brobot of course
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Nov 24, 2011 09:06
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Bobulus posted:The important thing to remember is that those same meteors went to both the B1 and B2 sessions, just in a different order This exactly. People have been suspecting this for a while, but the fact that John's book has this message in it is probably the strongest piece of evidence in its favour yet. Still isn't explicitly confirmed, but it seems like if it wasn't true, the explanations for some of this stuff would strain credibility even by Homestuck's standards! We'll see. It really does seem to be true, though, which raises the question of how that actually works. Is it just that Skaia's defense portals lead to Earth regardless of what timeline might be going on in there? That seems unlikely unless Jack, the Exiles, and pre-scratch Grandpa with his ship are going to show up at some point, which feels like it's most probably not going to happen. But if not, that would mean there's something special about baby-bearing meteors, or those specific portals they just happened to pass through. I guess that's not too much to accept. (Clearly it'll turn out that all the portals do work that way. The big asteroid looming over Jade's house is the one with the trolls on it after they mispilot it into a portal, having lost Sollux. The other version of it will be destroyed by Jake's brobotsprite as it descends.  )
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Nov 24, 2011 09:12
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That doesn't make sense because the B1 meteors don't exist to travel through the B2 medium portals, they're replaced by fresh B2 meteors. For that particular book to come into the new session, the book would have needed to come out of someone's inventory (the kids, jack, pm and wv are the only known survivors so far) to be put on the new post-scratch meteor.
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Nov 24, 2011 09:35
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The old B1 session hasn't completely unhappened or anything, there are still things around that originate in it - like the original four kids, and PM, WV and Jack. Remember that technically, the Incipisphere is not part of the parent universe. So if the way it works is that at least the (B1 session) portals the baby meteors passed through simply send things to Earth, no matter what timeline is on the other end, then that would be a mechanism by which the same meteors from the B1 session could land on both B1 earth and B2 earth. Mind you, we haven't had anything to directly tell us what's actually going on here or how it works, but this is a pretty strong possibility at this point.
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Nov 24, 2011 09:46
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H.R. Hufflepuff posted:And that's why you don't take your poppop's book.  Totally loving missed that. Cheers. As for the book, I'm just gonna sit tight and wait for the canonical explanation. All this speculation on something that will almost certainly be laid out in clear terms in the future is giving me a headache. For all we know, John arrived in this universe, de-alchemized the sassacre hammer, and then sent a brand new book back in time at some point. Plom Bar fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Nov 24, 2011 |
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Nov 24, 2011 10:25
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Huhn. I thought that whole meteor bifurcation theory was nutty when I first heard it but it's starting to make sense. It explains why both pre-robotic versions of the bunny are in Janes room. This would otherwise be impossible because we know the bunnies entire history loop. They can't be the same bunny as eventually becomes liv tyler, which makes them some kind of alternative version.
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Nov 24, 2011 10:36
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Fagtastic posted:Huhn. I thought that whole meteor bifurcation theory was nutty when I first heard it but it's starting to make sense. It's like the scratch reset the universe and now things are happening differently for a more favorable game result.
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Nov 24, 2011 10:44
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annatar posted:That doesn't make sense because the B1 meteors don't exist to travel through the B2 medium portals, they're replaced by fresh B2 meteors. It doesn't make sense? It's almost like it's a glitch or something? quote:Though they could not recognize it for the bad omen it was, this session was not the one in which they had been spawned. Such is the symptom of a subtle glitch affecting certain sessions, an error designed to trigger an unfathomable cascade of misfortune throughout paradox space. This glitch is the calling card of the one I serve. It is the discreet, gentlemanly manner in which he reserves his place in a universe for later visitation.
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Nov 24, 2011 10:57
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That was kind of my point - the bunnies are a lot easier to think of new origins for than the message in the book. Jane's idea doesn't really cut it. And just as a reminder: this idea predates seeing the bunnies. I think it originally came from Doc Scratch mentioning that the A1 trolls had not been spawned in their own session (edit: see Bobulus' post above, made while I was typing), one possible reason for which is that the ones Karkat made landed on both the A1 and A2 iterations of Alternia. At the time it seemed more likely to me that they just had no origin - which would be a pretty severe glitch for their session to suffer - but this makes sense also: they had to reset their session because that's a necessary condition of their own creation. In any case, most likely this is going to be true of either both the trolls and the humans or neither. I think the signs are pointing toward "both" right now, but Plom Bar has a point; it'll be a while before we find out, but we will. In the meantime, though, it's kind of fun to think about.
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Nov 24, 2011 11:00
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The book is coming into the session via jade's planet juggling anyway, there's no need to suppose some new property for the portals for this instance because someone can just put the book on the right B2 meteor.
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Nov 24, 2011 11:38
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This isn't something new, this is something we knew was happening since mid-Act 5. Also, we have evidence of other B1-Baby items. Jane (who, as a baby, had Dad's dirtied hat), has that same hat in her room, only considerably older. The Act 6 opening flash also gave us a quick shot at kidMom's ectobiology lab, containing mutant cats, probably inspired by the fact that she arrived with Vodka Mutini.
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Nov 24, 2011 12:01
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Bobulus posted:- Bro...we don't know much about. He arrived with Cal, and it probably inspired his love of puppets. Mom was raised by a cat, and Bro was raised... by Cal  In the new universe, Rose will have been raised by a stuffed bunny, and Dave will have been raised by a pony. Bobulus posted:- John's meteor hit Nanna's Joke Shop and killed Nanna. Dad raised John as his own. I wonder how the conversation between Nanna and Dad went. "One day I will be killed by a meteorite. There will be a baby on that meteorite, raise him as your own." "Oh mom, how you go on." "Raise the baby that killed me! Just as my horrible alien mother raised me." Nanna was amazing and I want more Nannalog. Edit: Speculation time. Bro loved puppets because of Cal, and Dave tried to emulate what he believed was ironic. Dave will now love ponies because of Maplehoof, and Bro will ironically emulate that love he assumes is also ironic. Starmaker fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Nov 24, 2011 |
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Nov 24, 2011 13:44
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annatar posted:The book is coming into the session via jade's planet juggling anyway, there's no need to suppose some new property for the portals for this instance because someone can just put the book on the right B2 meteor. That could theoretically work for the book, but wouldn't work for the bunnies. The two previous versions of the bunny no longer exist in the pre-scratch session. Liv Tyler may have survived the green sun explosion somehow, but the other earlier versions can't be brought in to be put on meteors. This would then require that this universe will have one of them get the same con-air bunny, drop it in oil and send it back with Rose, have young Rose knit the same purple components for it and have it sent back again on a meteor later with Jade. To me this seems far more unlikely and contrived than the meteor bifurcation idea.
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Nov 24, 2011 14:46
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It's been mentioned, but the hypothesis also sheds light on the confusing 'prescratch trolls not spawned in their session' idea we've had for a while. One hypothesis explaining multiple problems makes it, if not necessarily more likely, at least more interesting. e: mind you, there's a bit of a spanner in the works. Karkat's ancestor retrieved memories of his life in the previous universe, remember? That makes a lot less sense if the meteor bifurcation thing is true. Still vaguely plausible but it'd be a lot more consistent if a players prescratch self was in some way prior to their postscratch self, whereas bifurcating meteors wouldn't permit that perspective. Fagtastic fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Nov 24, 2011 |
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Nov 24, 2011 16:23
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My UU theory: UU is the Alternian version of Dad. She's not a player, not a guardian, she's just uh... well she's there. No matter what.
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Nov 24, 2011 18:18
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I'm not accepting the "one ectobiology session created the kids and guardians for both sessions" theory until it's explicitly stated in the comic itself. It's a live theory, a possible interpretation, but by no means proven.
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Nov 24, 2011 18:59
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Dolash posted:I'm not accepting the "one ectobiology session created the kids and guardians for both sessions" theory until it's explicitly stated in the comic itself. It's a live theory, a possible interpretation, but by no means proven. It's a very good one, though. - A1 universe trolls didn't create themselves. - B2 universe humans have B1 items. No other theory I've seen explains those two facts as well.
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Nov 24, 2011 19:19
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annatar posted:The book is coming into the session via jade's planet juggling anyway, there's no need to suppose some new property for the portals for this instance because someone can just put the book on the right B2 meteor. Why would it be a "new property"? This is the same earth, the portals still go back in time, theyre just switch around.
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Nov 24, 2011 19:23
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Bobulus posted:It's a very good one, though. So wait, if that's how Lord English reserves his place in the next instance of a universe, how is it affected by the fact that the kids CAN'T scratch? (No Beat Mesa)
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Nov 24, 2011 19:23
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Eox posted:So wait, if that's how Lord English reserves his place in the next instance of a universe, how is it affected by the fact that the kids CAN'T scratch? (No Beat Mesa) The universe that Lord English is in now (B2) will successfully complete the game, giving him a new universe (C) to propagate into. I think.
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Nov 24, 2011 19:33
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Eox posted:So wait, if that's how Lord English reserves his place in the next instance of a universe, how is it affected by the fact that the kids CAN'T scratch? (No Beat Mesa) Why would they need to scratch? The point of the scratch is to create a winnable session, and that's what the Scratch did for the B2 session. And they will have a Beat Mesa and a Hero of Time; it's been strongly implied that they will be joined by four of the players from the B1 session. It's definitely hinted that they'll be the four original kids, but the Hero of Time could end up being Aradia, possibly. They'll even have the actual Beat Mesa because Jade brought it with her
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Nov 24, 2011 19:37
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What Doc Scratch said was that the lack of ectobiology in the A1 session was the symptom of a glitch affecting that session; Lord English's calling card is the glitch itself, not the symptom. It is still not entirely clear what was meant by that, but it's possible that it refers to how (if the "one set of meteors" thing is true) the A1 trolls' creation hinged on their self-annihilation through the Scratch, or perhaps even to the Scratch itself. We'll have to wait for more evidence, I think, especially as regards Lord English's presence/influence (or lack thereof) in the B2 universe. Note, incidentally, that on the relevant page Doc Scratch says: quote:The heroes chose to accept this bargain, and scratched their session. In doing so they jumpstarted the reality in which the twenty-four figures of legend would together be created - and I as well - and then sent back in time to take our places in history. The idea that the A1 trolls arrived on the same meteors from the A2 session's veil as their A2 counterparts ties very neatly into this phrasing as well. Of course, that still doesn't make it definite but it really does seem like the tidiest hypothesis right now. edit: Cyrai posted:They'll even have the actual Beat Mesa because Jade brought it with her They don't. The Beat Mesa was left behind, we saw it ascending into Skaia after Jade removed the core Battlefield.
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Nov 24, 2011 19:42
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Hamiltonian Bicycle posted:What Doc Scratch said was that the lack of ectobiology in the A1 session was the symptom of a glitch affecting that session; Lord English's calling card is the glitch itself, not the symptom. It is still not entirely clear what was meant by that, but it's possible that it refers to how (if the "one set of meteors" thing is true) the A1 trolls' creation hinged on their self-annihilation through the Scratch, or perhaps even to the Scratch itself. This sounds very likely (scratched discs being glitchy and whatnot). An issue, though, with this whole theory, is I think that we now have a glitched session that cannot be scratched; the Ancestorkids are in the session that didn't spawn them, but can't scratch to fix this.
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Nov 24, 2011 19:47
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That's why it'd be so convenient if the session in which they were created had already happened (for some values of "already" and "happened") - under these assumptions, the A1 trolls had to erase their original timeline to make their own existence possible, whereas the B2 humans were created in an offshoot of the B1 timeline which also started the B2 one. UU laid this out pretty clearly, I thought: A1 (pre-scratch trollverse) begets A1' (pre-scratch troll incipisphere) begets A2 (post-scratch trollverse) begets A2' (post-scratch troll incipisphere). In A2', 24 trolls are created by ectobiology and sent back to A2 - and, hypothetically, back across the scratch to A1. This means A1 depends on its own annihilation and the emergence of A2', which is as clear a sign that a time-travelling rapping clown puppet crocodile pirate mobster demon mummy is influencing things as I've ever seen. A2' begets B1 (the human universe from Act 1) begets B1' (the original human incipisphere) begets B2 (we're watching that now), which will beget B2' and through it presumably C, whether or not C is where UU is sitting. Eight humans created in B1' are sent to B1 as we saw, but - again hypothetically - also forward to B2, which is not the same sort of problem because the dependence is not circular. Hamiltonian Bicycle fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Nov 24, 2011 |
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Nov 24, 2011 19:52
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Bobulus posted:It's a very good one, though. This theory holds water to me, but not just because of Poppop having the B1 book, or Jane having B1 bunnies. Given what we know about time travel and beta timelines in general, it's a substantial possibility that the meteors bifurcated. Think back to Lime-suit Dave. One choice was made, then the timeline split. I'll even go a step further and say that those beta timelines had to happen to make sure the Alpha timeline went the way it was supposed to. It's not far-fetched to think of the Scratch as the same sort of scenario, but on a grander scale. The same rules apply, and to be honest, the clues are right there. Let's use a huge turn table to set time back far enough in the past. Let's have the Beta timeline affect the Alpha timeline. Let's have a bifurcated version of the main characters involved go through a slightly different set of events. And as far as the items? Both Alpha Dave and Lime-suit Dave had a similar inventory before the time-split. As far as I'm concerned, Skaia had the same inventory to send to B1 and B2.
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Nov 24, 2011 20:04
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Guys, they can't just find the book and send it off in Jane's ectobiological session because it's already been sent off. The only one they could send is the already old and beaten version, and that wouldn't make sense.
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Nov 24, 2011 20:07
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