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You know what continues to be one of my favourite moments in the story? Just before the Scratch interlude, when Dave and Terezi are discussing Bro's passing and the pending conflict with Vriska, and suddenly AR starts commanding Dave. gently caress but if that sequence doesn't make me giggle like a moron every time. :B
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Nov 24, 2011 20:19
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I love that bit. It catches Dave so completely off guard. I also like how Terezi is probably the only one who got anything productive out of her Exile. Must be the Seer of Mind thing, she seemed to guess what was going on pretty quickly. King of Solomon posted:Guys, they can't just find the book and send it off in Jane's ectobiological session because it's already been sent off. The only one they could send is the already old and beaten version, and that wouldn't make sense. Yeah, that's what annatar was proposing. I also don't think it's likely; you'll notice if you compare that this book is slightly more distressed than the one John found in the safe (that is, the images are slightly darkened) but I'd say it looks more like it's been around longer since impact this time (because John has) than like it's been through another meteor strike. But I don't think it's a good idea to be too assertive based on that kind of evidence.
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Nov 24, 2011 20:24
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Time-caused wear on the book is something we really shouldn't think about in depth because then you have to account for the book looping through time infinitely in B1 which would make it ok my head is hurting just trying to think about this
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Nov 24, 2011 20:38
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Hamiltonian Bicycle posted:a time-travelling rapping clown puppet crocodile pirate mobster demon mummy I just wanted to take a time out and remind everyone that this is the villain of the story.
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Nov 24, 2011 20:56
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YF-23 posted:Time-caused wear on the book is something we really shouldn't think about in depth because then you have to account for the book looping through time infinitely in B1 which would make it ok my head is hurting just trying to think about this It's not infinite, a book was printed, delivered to a joke store, crushed an old woman to death, was given to her grandson, the old woman's ghost sprite wrote a note in it and sent it back in time to be a wholly different book
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Nov 24, 2011 21:04
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RickoniX posted:It's not infinite, a book was printed, delivered to a joke store, crushed an old woman to death, was given to her grandson, the old woman's ghost sprite wrote a note in it and sent it back in time to be a wholly different book I believe that sequence is out of order; a book was printed and given to John, which he kept in his chest with the fake blood capsules and the like. Nanna laser'd her message into it and dropped it into The Medium, and then it and John went back in time to crush Nanna with it, at which point it was placed in a safe.
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Nov 24, 2011 21:11
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Personally I'm guessing that the B1 kids created the B2 kids/ancestors, and the B2 kids will later ectobiologize the B1 kids. I mean come on, Hussie will do anything to throw in another MOBIUS DOUBLE REACHAROUND at this point.
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Nov 24, 2011 21:31
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I love how these A1/A2/B1/B2 terms for the four known universes have become so widely adopted. It's not even a bad thing. Makes referring to these instances much easier. Anyone in the loop know when the new books are going to be announced/available on topatoco? Edit: VVV I fully expect something like that to happen, either 'A' universe. Lord of Laughton fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Nov 24, 2011 |
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Nov 24, 2011 21:59
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President Ark posted:Personally I'm guessing that the B1 kids created the B2 kids/ancestors, and the B2 kids will later ectobiologize the B1 kids. The B2 kids will create the A1 trolls and nobody will know what the gently caress
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Nov 24, 2011 22:00
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Rooreelooo posted:The B2 kids will create the A1 trolls and nobody will know what the gently caress "Who are these douchebags?"
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Nov 24, 2011 22:28
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Rooreelooo posted:The B2 kids will create the A1 trolls and nobody will know what the gently caress This could be considered a win of sorts for our heroes, since it'd mean that Lord English is trapped in an infinite loop and can't get out to eat other kid's universes. Not exactly the happiest of endings though.
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Nov 24, 2011 22:49
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Thundarr posted:This could be considered a win of sorts for our heroes, since it'd mean that Lord English is trapped in an infinite loop and can't get out to eat other kid's universes.
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Nov 24, 2011 23:18
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Jetsetlemming posted:That reminds me of an issue with Homestuck I get hung up on: The "rules" establish lots of ways for games to fail- to have universes die without reproducing. But a successful game only makes one new universe from one old universe- with no increase in numbers, and lots of opportunity to decrease, how does this pattern not destroy all of existence? Didn't Terezi once imply that a single universe can create more than one session?
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Nov 24, 2011 23:20
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Thundarr posted:This could be considered a win of sorts for our heroes, since it'd mean that Lord English is trapped in an infinite loop and can't get out to eat other kid's universes. Except aren't there multiple lord englishes? I thought he was less of a unique character and more of an example of what happens to game sessions that glitch and go wrong. He was born into this universe, right? Surely a new one gets born into every new universe, unless this is supposed to be the *first* (as if that word means anything in paradox space) time lord english has ever existed. Can't think of exactly where this was mentioned but i'm sure that at some point doc scratch says there have been multiple versions of himself and each one has succeeded in creating a lord english.
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Nov 24, 2011 23:31
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Jetsetlemming posted:That reminds me of an issue with Homestuck I get hung up on: The "rules" establish lots of ways for games to fail- to have universes die without reproducing. But a successful game only makes one new universe from one old universe- with no increase in numbers, and lots of opportunity to decrease, how does this pattern not destroy all of existence? Universes are not normally destroyed by SBURB, just the original species on one planet are wiped out. That planet is then repopulated by exiles. Every time a universe is destroyed by Lord English though, he likely ensures it's session spawns a new (flawed) universe anyway for him to consume. Successful sessions simply add 1 universe to paradox space, while glitched ones (courtesy of LE) net 0 universes. Any that just fail would also net 0, but without destroying their universe.
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Nov 24, 2011 23:42
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Doc Scratch did indeed say there many others like himself. Though I can see how it would be easy to interpret all the events as coming to mean there is just the one Lord English existing in this set of universes - the only LE we know of came from Doc Scratch, who was existing inside the remains of the green sun, making it look like he was the first or the only one, when his appearance there is only because the death of the troll universe was necessary for the existence of the green sun anyway. I didn't think about it until now, but we are actually unlikely to see Cal-LE again unless a new LE comes from similar origins, since the one we saw has already fulfilled everything he needed to do in a universe which is now gone. MrBims fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Nov 24, 2011 |
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Nov 24, 2011 23:43
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Jetsetlemming posted:That reminds me of an issue with Homestuck I get hung up on: The "rules" establish lots of ways for games to fail- to have universes die without reproducing. But a successful game only makes one new universe from one old universe- with no increase in numbers, and lots of opportunity to decrease, how does this pattern not destroy all of existence? It's an interesting concept- the being eternally destroying universes is in fact the thing that guarantees the continued existence of the multiverse, and without him the multiverse would not be able to propagate itself and would eventually end... in a whimper, not a bang. It's an interesting concept, but I doubt it's what's going on. For one thing we don't even know Lord English's true motivations anymore- we don't know what he gets out of destroying universes. We were told he destroyed universes, and we've seen him destroy two... but that wasn't his usual thing, it seems, as he used those two universes to create the Green Sun... the source of his power. We don't know that he's quite as timeless as has been implied. He may have come into existence for the first time in the intermission we just saw, and the trolls and kids universes may be the first ones he's ever destroyed. As a totally random aside- something I'm still thinking about (which haven't come up at all in ages) is colors and elements. Chalk, Oil, Amber, and Uranium were the four elements in WV's antics... and they kind of lined up with the various non-human people. Prospitians are chalk-white. Dersites are oil-black, and Lord English's minions (the felt) are uranium-green. Kind of implies we're due some amber-yellow people. Kind of a meaningless pattern, but I wanted to get that out there in case a yellow faction shows up in some capacity, in which case I could say I saw it coming.
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Nov 24, 2011 23:48
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Eiba posted:As a totally random aside- something I'm still thinking about (which haven't come up at all in ages) is colors and elements. Chalk, Oil, Amber, and Uranium were the four elements in WV's antics... and they kind of lined up with the various non-human people. Prospitians are chalk-white. Dersites are oil-black, and Lord English's minions (the felt) are uranium-green. Kind of implies we're due some amber-yellow people. Kind of a meaningless pattern, but I wanted to get that out there in case a yellow faction shows up in some capacity, in which case I could say I saw it coming. It's the four basic types of grist/imps in the kids' session: (Shale) oil for John, chalk for Rose, amber for Dave, and uranium for Jade. Not to say you're wrong, just that it already has a story purpose, albeit a game-mechanical one.
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Nov 24, 2011 23:51
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It lines up also with what kind of imps each of the kids faced in their sessions, John faced oil imps(black), Dave faced amber imps (yellow), Rose faced marble imps (white) and Jade faced uranium imps (green). I think you might be on to something. E: f, b
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Nov 24, 2011 23:56
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Eiba posted:Chalk, Oil, Amber, and Uranium were the four elements in WV's antics... and they kind of lined up with the various non-human people. Prospitians are chalk-white. Dersites are oil-black, and Lord English's minions (the felt) are uranium-green. Kind of implies we're due some amber-yellow people. Kind of a meaningless pattern, but I wanted to get that out there in case a yellow faction shows up in some capacity, in which case I could say I saw it coming. Actually, wasn't the chalk multi-coloured with shades nearly corresponding to the Trolls' blood colours? Going by your theory, I'd say the amber would represent the golden livery of the Prospitians.
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Nov 25, 2011 01:12
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They did it again  
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Nov 25, 2011 01:33
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I tried to read Sister Claire for shits and giggles and I got bored, but those SBaHJ-ified advertisements are the best. On topic, I hope Bro and Dave end up fighting it out on the roof again and Dave wins by dropping Maplehoof on Bro.
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Nov 25, 2011 01:41
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Toraen posted:Universes are not normally destroyed by SBURB, just the original species on one planet are wiped out. That planet is then repopulated by exiles. Every time a universe is destroyed by Lord English though, he likely ensures it's session spawns a new (flawed) universe anyway for him to consume. Adding to this. This means that each single inhabited planet, of which there may be many, can create a whole universe. I think early in the strip it was also kinda implied there were multiple Sburb sessions on Earth? Though the way the plot's developed since then makes me doubt these were legit sessions. I'm still like 50% convinced the whole Sburb/sgrub system is purely a system to ensure the propogation of Lord English anyways
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Nov 25, 2011 01:57
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I'm still of the opinion that even if Lord English were to be extricated like the evil growth he is from the whole Sburb process, the 'need' for the game to destroy the homeworld and species of each session's champions makes it a sort of antagonist, maybe even evil depending on what manner of intelligence is behind the whole thing. As such, if the game is implied to continue to happen but isn't "fixed" to avoid destroying planets, and none of the characters see this as some sort of issue, I'm going to be pretty bothered by it. I've stood by the idea that the story is going to end with the kids saving the Earth no matter how many hard parodoxes are in the way (that's what heroes do - they save the Earth - and John's much too earnest a fan of Armageddon to be anything less). The universe reproduction system is weird but sort of understandable, but there's no practical reason to have to destroy a planet when the portals could be aimed to cause the asteroids to float harmlessly into the sun while only the paradoxically necessary ones touch down on the planet. Considering the extreme level of control over fate and destiny the game appears to exert, there's no way this wouldn't be possible, it's just a matter of making the game work that way. Basically, Lord English is just half the problem.
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Nov 25, 2011 02:58
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Rooreelooo posted:The B2 kids will create the A1 trolls and nobody will know what the gently caress isn't this the entire point of the mobius double reacharound?
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Nov 25, 2011 03:07
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Prison Warden posted:Adding to this. This means that each single inhabited planet, of which there may be many, can create a whole universe. I think early in the strip it was also kinda implied there were multiple Sburb sessions on Earth? Though the way the plot's developed since then makes me doubt these were legit sessions. Through the Gamefaqs walkthroughs written by luminaries such as winniethepoop2, it seems like many kids started playing Sburb, but only those who were ectobiologically predestined to succeed would actually enter the Medium. Fedorafreak entered the Medium and ascended to God Tier, but he seems like a Tom Bombadil character to me now. His power and achievements are so far beyond the scope of this story that it's no surprise he isn't ever a relevant character in the main plot and is never fully explained. Oh and, I've never read Lord of the Rings so this is not an invitation for you loving nerds to come in here and correct me on your goddamn fairy elves.
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Nov 25, 2011 05:57
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Aeldaar posted:isn't this the entire point of the mobius double reacharound? It would be a very neat resolution, but it also wouldn't be very satisfying. That would mean Lord English's defeat was inevitable and him getting trapped in such a loop was something that was bound to happen sooner or later. My own theory is that UU is from a third universe, one that succeeds the Kids' universe.
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Nov 25, 2011 06:08
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creationist believer posted:Through the Gamefaqs walkthroughs written by luminaries such as winniethepoop2, it seems like many kids started playing Sburb, but only those who were ectobiologically predestined to succeed would actually enter the Medium. Fedorafreak entered the Medium and ascended to God Tier, but he seems like a Tom Bombadil character to me now. His power and achievements are so far beyond the scope of this story that it's no surprise he isn't ever a relevant character in the main plot and is never fully explained. Oh and, I've never read Lord of the Rings so this is not an invitation for you loving nerds to come in here and correct me on your goddamn fairy elves. From what I can tell. Each inhabited planet can create one universe at the cost of having its current population destroyed. Exiles then recreate society on the planet, reseeding it to play another session and make another universe. Each planet can do this an infinite number of times (or until the very structure of the planet is destroyed.) The majority of sessions in paradox space are probably played by Carapace people who, as constructs of the game, know how it works and can pull it off with relative ease.
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Nov 25, 2011 07:02
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Bobulus posted:- A1 universe trolls didn't create themselves. But the post-Scratch Troll universe did create themselves? The first adventure-game-in-asteroid flash thing involved Karkat flashing back to when he created the trolls and the ancestors as grubs. Since such a post-Scratch genesis happened for the Trolls, it seems unlikely that you'd have a different course just for post-Scratch kids.
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Nov 25, 2011 07:04
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Zorak posted:But the post-Scratch Troll universe did create themselves? The first adventure-game-in-asteroid flash thing involved Karkat flashing back to when he created the trolls and the ancestors as grubs. Since such a post-Scratch genesis happened for the Trolls, it seems unlikely that you'd have a different course just for post-Scratch kids. I think by "A1 universe trolls" he means pre-Scratch Trolls, not post-Scratch.
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Nov 25, 2011 07:06
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QueerPope posted:From what I can tell. Each inhabited planet can create one universe at the cost of having its current population destroyed. Exiles then recreate society on the planet, reseeding it to play another session and make another universe. Each planet can do this an infinite number of times (or until the very structure of the planet is destroyed.) Huh. This actually makes a lot of sense. It would explain why the people of Prospit and Derse appear to be the same race in all sessions. Because that's the race that would be playing in most sessions.
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Nov 25, 2011 07:08
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Goddamn, I completely forgot about the Karkat/grub thing. It's amazing I can be so invested in a story that I understand so little of.
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Nov 25, 2011 07:09
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Thinking back on [S] Jade: Enter, it seems to me like there was no real reason to do a 4th prototyping at all. The Bec piñata Jade had to shoot to enter the medium was there before the sprite's first prototyping so technically it should have been possible right? But I also remember that the first prototyping done pre-entry being sort of compulsory (stated indirectly; I recall a second pre-entry prototyping said to be needlessly powering up the enemies, which would imply the first one is necessary). Anyone know what I'm talking about? But I guess the state of prototypings could play into how Paradox Space decides the alpha timeline.
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Nov 25, 2011 07:31
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Zorak posted:But the post-Scratch Troll universe did create themselves? The first adventure-game-in-asteroid flash thing involved Karkat flashing back to when he created the trolls and the ancestors as grubs. Since such a post-Scratch genesis happened for the Trolls, it seems unlikely that you'd have a different course just for post-Scratch kids. From the conversation with UU, A1 would be the pre-scratch Alternia, with B2 being popst-scratch Earth. YF-23 posted:Thinking back on [S] Jade: Enter, it seems to me like there was no real reason to do a 4th prototyping at all. The Bec piñata Jade had to shoot to enter the medium was there before the sprite's first prototyping so technically it should have been possible right? But I also remember that the first prototyping done pre-entry being sort of compulsory (stated indirectly; I recall a second pre-entry prototyping said to be needlessly powering up the enemies, which would imply the first one is necessary). Anyone know what I'm talking about? Yeah, first prototype is necessary to win the game at all, second pre-entering prototype just powers them up more. Rose is the only one that prototyped twice before entering.
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Nov 25, 2011 07:32
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RickoniX posted:Didn't Terezi once imply that a single universe can create more than one session? I hope so (my fanfictions)
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Nov 25, 2011 07:54
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creationist believer posted:Fedorafreak entered the Medium and ascended to God Tier, but he seems like a Tom Bombadil character to me now. His power and achievements are so far beyond the scope of this story that it's no surprise he isn't ever a relevant character in the main plot and is never fully explained. Oh and, I've never read Lord of the Rings so this is not an invitation for you loving nerds to come in here and correct me on your goddamn fairy elves. Pretty sure Tom Bombadil was never really explained, so don't worry, your analogy stands. Granted, Tom Bombadil never drank his own urine to survive, but he's no Fedorafreak. Zorak posted:But the post-Scratch Troll universe did create themselves? The first adventure-game-in-asteroid flash thing involved Karkat flashing back to when he created the trolls and the ancestors as grubs. Since such a post-Scratch genesis happened for the Trolls, it seems unlikely that you'd have a different course just for post-Scratch kids. Hussie has already explained that much of the plot up till now was just to allow the characters to switch places: Andrew Hussie posted:The whole kid-guardian swap thing grew out of the development of their ectobiological origin story, and I thought it was a fun idea to build toward. In fact, a huge amount of the way I structured the plot was centered around this idea. A big part of the inspiration for the hard reset concept was to facilitate this idea I thought had a lot of exciting potential. Basically he had this planned for two years. Why would only the meteors with kids reach post-scratch earth and not all the others (Bec Noir, the Exiles, etc.)? Why did it go one way with the trolls and another way with the humans? Plot holes, that's why. It doesn't matter. That's not the key element of the story here, it's not an important part of the plot. The important thing is that they switched roles and he was planning on it for like two years. That's the important bit. The rest is just details. He'll explain it all eventually I'm sure, but it will be completely irrelevant. It's just a thing that happened to allow for more interesting and important things to happen. edit: What I'm trying to say is this whole line of inquiry is a dead-end. Even if we come up with some theory and it's mostly true or whatever, Hussie's just going to handwave away any problems with any explanation because it doesn't matter. The bit about the troll's pre-scratch session was just to get us prepared for what was going to happen with the kids. That bit about the glitch and LE's calling card was to explain away a (big) paradox and make it rather ominous as well - that scratches were involved with LE and that the upcoming scratch was probably not a good thing. If anything we should be focused more on this glitch, LE's calling card, than on the mechanics of the scratch. It's not the how, it's the why and what. Personally I'm a fan of the bifurcation idea, because it's the most hinted at and also the simplest and cleanest. Hussie'll choose the path of least-resistance for this part, because it has no bearing on the overall story whatsoever. Starmaker fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Nov 25, 2011 |
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Nov 25, 2011 08:06
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Pretzel Rod Stewart posted:I hope so (my fanfictions) Terezi definitely implied that planets can be 'used' multiple times for more sessions. I also think in Doc Scratch's introduction page it mentions that all planets slated for intelligent life get a first guardian, which suggests that multiple planets within the same universe can be used to play the game. What it suggests to me is that an English-less, non-corrupted universe could potentially create dozens of subsequent universes (with some chance of failure/null sessions). Lord English I think becomes more nefarious this way because he's not just destroying one universe, but cutting its potential short such that much fewer universes are created AND the ones that are are screwed up by LE's/DS's influence. And YF-23, one pre-entry prototyping is necessary because that's what causes Skaia/the Battlefield to change through its forms (chess board, bigger chess board, cube, planet, crazyness) so that eventually Billious Slick can rest there and they win the game. In the Kid's case, victory was impossible so they prooooobably didn't really have to, but Doc Scratch convinced Rose that they did in order to get the Tumor, which required 4 prototypings.
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Nov 25, 2011 08:07
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YF-23 posted:Thinking back on [S] Jade: Enter, it seems to me like there was no real reason to do a 4th prototyping at all. The Bec piñata Jade had to shoot to enter the medium was there before the sprite's first prototyping so technically it should have been possible right? But I also remember that the first prototyping done pre-entry being sort of compulsory (stated indirectly; I recall a second pre-entry prototyping said to be needlessly powering up the enemies, which would imply the first one is necessary). Anyone know what I'm talking about? You may be confusing prototypings total(as in, from all the players) with prototypings from individual kids. A second pre-entry prototyping from an individual kid(as done with Rose) just needlessly augments enemies, but each kid needs to pre-prototype at least once otherwise the battlefield won't be shaped. You can technically enter without prototyping as it's not a direct part of the entry process, but it's not a good idea.
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Nov 25, 2011 08:21
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We've never seen what happens when someone fails to pre-entry prototype however, so for all we know its actually the key to not creating an unwinnable session.
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Nov 25, 2011 08:27
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Talorat posted:We've never seen what happens when someone fails to pre-entry prototype however, so for all we know its actually the key to not creating an unwinnable session. Except for the "beta-timeline you all die" stuff that ruins it from being a possibility.
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Nov 25, 2011 09:09
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