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Virtua Fighter is the best game nobody plays 
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Nov 30, 2011 20:51
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VOOT is the best game nobody plays too.
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Nov 30, 2011 20:54
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Gutcruncher posted:The Virtua Fighter games do a great job of making every fighter unique, while still keeping things pretty balanced. Sure theres still a top and a bottom tier, but it isnt like a huge night and day difference or something. VF has pretty low character variety really. Like most 3D games everyone is variations on a pretty rigid template.
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Nov 30, 2011 20:55
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Does anyone actually play VF at all? I remember playing a demo and it seemed overly complex and convoluted.
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Nov 30, 2011 21:02
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You pretty much need to live in Japan to play it. Isn't the console version like 5 versions old at this point?
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Nov 30, 2011 21:07
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Bathtub Cheese posted:I think "pick a better character" is sound advice for some players and picking top tiers in no way undermines someone's wins -- everyone already chose to play the game and tourney rules by putting money into the pot. Everyone can choose to learn the top 5 or whatever they want. Then you agree with that article's basic ideology. You may not realize it, but you do. 
40 OZ fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Nov 30, 2011 |
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Nov 30, 2011 21:08
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von Braun posted:You pretty much need to live in Japan to play it. Isn't the console version like 5 versions old at this point? The most recent revision is coming to PS3/360 in the US next summer (and probably other places but I don't remember anymore). Also: Bathtub Cheese posted:I'm not a big fan of tournies tbqh. They're at best benchmark for everyone but the top 3 to judge their progress in the game. Tournies are popular in the US because it's a way to hustle scrubs and new players, and the meltdowns over an early matchup against a strong player and shady stuff that happens often enough bears this out. If you have no shot at winning there is no reason at all to enter a fighting game tourney in the US. hahahahahahahhahhahah. You can't be serious, right? rivals fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Nov 30, 2011 |
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Nov 30, 2011 21:09
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Partial Octopus posted:Does anyone actually play VF at all? I remember playing a demo and it seemed overly complex and convoluted. It's huge in Japan (though not as big as it was during VF4 days). It's easily one of the most consistently good, well-thought out and deep fighting games out there but nobody in the West plays it because here we don't play games according to how good they are.
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Nov 30, 2011 21:11
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rivals posted:hahahahahahahhahhahah. You can't be serious, right? I disagree with his comment too, but it has to be said that elements of this have existed. There have always been shady tournament organizers. It used to be much worse than it is now, though. Also, there is alot of these "hustling scrubs" elements that probably don't belong in the tournament community anymore. I think the best example is 'coaching.' I know everyone wants to win but it is obnoxious to see when a no-name guy makes it in top 8, you can guarantee if he plays a pro, that pro will have 4-5 guys like JWong coaching them- even telling them what counters what in real time. Even if the coaching doesn't make a huge difference in who wins, it just looks bad and is depressing to have a guy taking a shot at his first major and he has 4-5 sponsored professionals coaching the other pro against him. Coaching smacks of this 'lol POT MONSTER' poo poo that alot of new players are scared of, often for good reason. edit- Seeding, too 40 OZ fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Nov 30, 2011 |
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Nov 30, 2011 21:37
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40 OZ posted:I disagree with his comment too, but it has to be said that elements of this have existed. I have never had a problem with coaching and I will happily coach people in tournament, even if I don't know them if they seem receptive. Like when I was telling Fingers to just spam O.Honda FP Slaps against Gief in one of the ST tournaments! This is just my opinion but I think who wins or loses should not come down to missing knowledge, especially in newer games with so many characters that you might not have the opportunity to learn all the match ups in detail. You have to be good to apply coaching anyway, how many people can just hear something and use it right away without practicing? If your gameplan is going to be destroyed by someone telling your opponent how to counter one gimmick you are abusing, then you aren't going to make it that far anyway. Edit: More thoughts on the scene in general. Broadly, people play fighting games for 3 reasons - they like playing the game, they like getting better at something, or they like winning. #1 is the weakest reason and honestly the competitive community does not have a lot of interest in players who are only playing for that reason. The FGC is focused around the other 2 types of players, because those are the people who were passionate enough about the game to create a scene before there was money in it. People say the scene should evolve and grow beyond those roots and be more welcoming to type 1 players, but why? Just to bring more money in, chasing the dream of esports? You can feel free to disagree but I don't think it is realistic to expect to play Street Fighter for a living, and chasing that dream to the exclusion of the community's competitive roots is helping to eliminate what made these games and the community around them so great to begin with. Even 2 of the guys best known for trying to "make it" in Street Fighter, Gootecks and Mike Ross, freely admit that this is something they are just doing to see where they can go with it, and do not expect it to provide a living for them. Maybe I'm just being a hater, but I still have to say, my favorite fighting game tournament experience was Evo 2k8 and screaming my lungs off at 9 in the morning as John Choi destroyed Japan in CVS2, back when there were 300 people and not 2000. I think it's cool that the game has blown up the way it has, but I'd much rather have the scene go back to those days than for it to get watered down with new games coming out constantly and less focus on people really becoming godlike at a game. ZerodotJander fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Nov 30, 2011 |
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Nov 30, 2011 21:49
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ZerodotJander posted:I have never had a problem with coaching and I will happily coach people in tournament, even if I don't know them if they seem receptive. Like when I was telling Fingers to just spam O.Honda FP Slaps against Gief in one of the ST tournaments! This is just my opinion but I think who wins or loses should not come down to missing knowledge, especially in newer games with so many characters that you might not have the opportunity to learn all the match ups in detail. You have to be good to apply coaching anyway, how many people can just hear something and use it right away without practicing? If your gameplan is going to be destroyed by someone telling your opponent how to counter one gimmick you are abusing, then you aren't going to make it that far anyway. I agree that it is easy to overstate how much coaching actually helps. My main problem is simply that "it looks bad." That's it. It just flat out looks scummy to have a guy covered with sponsor gear and he has 4-5 other pros coaching him in his corner, against some shmuck who showed up and got far in the tournament for whatever reason. This is totally opinion and I'm not saying I'm factually right about it at all. I also have a more liberal attitude with gimmicks. I don't have any problem with gimmicks, and think they should be a legitimate factor in these games. Coaching certainly does curtail their effectiveness a great deal.
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Nov 30, 2011 21:58
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Maybe I'm in the minority but I like balance in a game, I want a game to be balanced, perhaps its not possible to balance everyone but at least have some variety. Its just no fun to see the same characters or teams in the tourney scene, everyone is there to win it so of course they're gonna pick the best guys that compliment their skills, right now Ultimate Marvel 3 is the big one and Wesker/Spencer seem to be coming out on top to the un-needed buffs they both got, that's boring to me. Marvel 3 is a game with I think 48 characters, its impossible to balance many but sometimes it looks like they didn't even try, they just made a small handful very strong and called it a day. Some of the best poo poo I've ever seen is when tourney players are just messing around, watch flash metroid on wednesday fights I think, he added Modok to his team recently, that poo poo is amazing and fun to watch. MK has its tiers but you still see a ton of variety, I never expected to see a Mileena in grand finals at evo yet there she was. Being amazing at a game obviously has its upsides, combine that with downright broken characters and its just another advantage.
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Nov 30, 2011 22:31
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It's not like balance and character diversity (not just in the characters present but in the actual ways they play) cannot coexist. It's just harder to do that well. That being said, Street Fighter could consist entirely of Ryu, Chun, and Zangief and I would happily watch and play that poo poo. Now that I think about it, I wonder if the complaints about balance and tiers are in many instances really just more about top tiers not being interesting. Like compare a game in which Ryu is top tier to a game in which Yun is. Even vanilla SF4 Sagat was pretty interesting. Or look at all the complaints about vanilla MvC3 Wolverine. I feel like people would for the most part care less about balance as long as the best characters are interesting and not one dimensional or brain dead. Also it seems like fighting games are developing their own hipster scene.
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Nov 30, 2011 22:40
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The Madcatz Brawl Stick is on sale at Amazon for $50 today. Fairly decent option if you want a stick but don't know if you want to drop the money for a TE. e: Only 1 left in stock though, so... nevermind?
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Nov 30, 2011 22:44
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chumbler posted:I feel like people would for the most part care less about balance as long as the best characters are interesting and not one dimensional or brain dead. Actually, I think this is a fair point. Let's take MvC2 as an example again. The top tiers in that game were far and above everyone else, but the amount of work and strategies required to play made them interesting. On the other hand, Yun just feels like bullshit with his incredibly safe, incredibly dangerous pressure that's not even that hard to execute.
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Nov 30, 2011 22:49
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This is a good post from the comments of that articlequote:Josh_the_Funkdoc Pretty much sums up what some of you are getting at.
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Nov 30, 2011 23:14
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rivals posted:hahahahahahahhahhahah. You can't be serious, right? Somewhat serious I guess? I'm being melodramatic and trying to strike a nerve for sure. Participating in a tourney that you're statistically unlikely to place in is not really worth your time when it could be spent playing casuals -- learning new things/meeting new people or MMs, where you have a much higher chance of a payout and a larger number of games to adapt to your opponent. The tourney setting is just an excuse to socialize. I don't see why that's such a rage-worthy opinion.
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Nov 30, 2011 23:26
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Gamest Mook posted:VF has pretty low character variety really. Like most 3D games everyone is variations on a pretty rigid template. I don't actually understand what you mean. The characters in VF since like VF4 are designed around loving with/subverting the template in unique ways with their own tradeoffs in terms of risk/reward/move properties. Bathtub Cheese fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Nov 30, 2011 |
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Nov 30, 2011 23:32
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Somewhat serious I guess? I'm being melodramatic and trying to strike a nerve for sure. Participating in a tourney that you're statistically unlikely to place in is not really worth your time when it could be spent playing casuals -- learning new things/meeting new people or MMs, where you have a much higher chance of a payout and a larger number of games to adapt to your opponent. The tourney setting is just an excuse to socialize. I don't see why that's such a rage-worthy opinion. It's not a rage-worthy opinion at all, in fact it's pretty much on point (as were your other comments on tourneys). It's just difficult for people so invested in something to look at it objectively and honestly.
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Nov 30, 2011 23:33
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Participating in a tourney that you're statistically unlikely to place in is not really worth your time when it could be spent playing casuals -- learning new things/meeting new people or MMs, where you have a much higher chance of a payout and a larger number of games to adapt to your opponent. The tourney setting is just an excuse to socialize. I don't see why that's such a rage-worthy opinion. It is worth your time because it helps you get used to tourney format and nerves.
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Nov 30, 2011 23:43
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ZerodotJander posted:I think it's cool that the game has blown up the way it has, but I'd much rather have the scene go back to those days than for it to get watered down with new games coming out constantly and less focus on people really becoming godlike at a game. I want to risk the probation and just reply with "LOL" to the bold part. But I actually don't know what you're saying, or if you're implying that there are more fg's today than in the past or I just don't even know.
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Nov 30, 2011 23:45
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Zand posted:It is worth your time because it helps you get used to tourney format and nerves. Tourney format is actually pretty tedious as it stands now, since it's devolved into a few days of fall guys getting worked by top players. 2/3 format with pools is really disorganized and boring if the tourney organizers don't think everything through (this is getting A LOT better, admittedly). The finals in double elim is also terrible and uncompetitive, so I dunno. MMs still have that same element of risk, and oftentimes you're against someone you can theoretically beat, so you don't have an excuse if you lose.
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Nov 30, 2011 23:50
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JesusLovesRonwell posted:I want to risk the probation and just reply with "LOL" to the bold part. But I actually don't know what you're saying, or if you're implying that there are more fg's today than in the past or I just don't even know. I think what he is saying is that most tournaments don't play old games that have been around for years anymore, they play new poo poo just because it is new. I would be happier personally seeing a tourney lineup with stuff like Vampire Savior, Marvel 2, ST, CvS2 and GGAC than a tourney lineup with only new games.
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Nov 30, 2011 23:50
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Gutcruncher posted:The Virtua Fighter games do a great job of making every fighter unique, while still keeping things pretty balanced. Sure theres still a top and a bottom tier, but it isnt like a huge night and day difference or something. Please let this happen, please please please I need to play against living breathing creatures that play FGs.
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Nov 30, 2011 23:52
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Somewhat serious I guess? I'm being melodramatic and trying to strike a nerve for sure. Participating in a tourney that you're statistically unlikely to place in is not really worth your time when it could be spent playing casuals -- learning new things/meeting new people or MMs, where you have a much higher chance of a payout and a larger number of games to adapt to your opponent. The tourney setting is just an excuse to socialize. I don't see why that's such a rage-worthy opinion. Now you are getting ridiculous. If you are trying to be  and gametheory Expected Value, you really shouldn't bother buying these games or playing them in the first place.The pure cash prizes are insignificant for the vast majority of tournaments. So are money matches, for that matter. Yes there have been some big ones (and usually a certain poker pro had alot to do with the size of those) but 99% of them are 5-10 bucks. The money doesn't matter- it is just something to make it more interesting. Have you ever run a 5K race? Tournaments are alot like that. The point of playing these games is competing and getting better at something. Nobody comes home from a half-marathon and says they "lost" if they didn't get 1st place. Tournaments are the measuring stick at how much better you are getting. Why is that it that tournament players are so much better than people who strictly play casuals, in every case? You would be surprised how much better you can get by attending a major rather than battling your roommate for the 3000th match. edit- Or without all the  if you think there is no difference between playing someone in an arcade or tournament versus playing your brother on the couch you don't "get" it and never will. The essence of fighting games is not frame data, it's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8I3vyWFoKs 40 OZ fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Nov 30, 2011 23:56
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40 OZ posted:Now you are getting ridiculous. If you are trying to be He actually made that exact point about Tournaments being a measuring stick (in fact, he may have even used the same metaphor), but only where players outside top 3 are concerned. He didn't say anything about strictly playing casuals, but that if you don't stand a chance of winning a tourney for a given game, you're better off saving your money and devoting your energies to playing a lot of matches with skilled players, rather than just playing a couple matches and losing, probably learning nothing or very little. Also, at any tourney I've ever been to, the "pros" inevitably play some casuals, so you could save your money and get bodied, and maybe learn something without pissing away cash. Also, the fact that tournament players are better than people who only play casuals destroys nothing. It could just mean that the "pros" have that much more time to devote to getting better, etc. That's not even touching on the other points he made. JesusLovesRonwell fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 00:05
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JesusLovesRonwell posted:He actually made that exact point about Tournaments being a measuring stick (in fact, he may have even used the same metaphor). Let me get this straight, so all of this yakking has been solely about the (Expected Value) of cash when entering a tournament? Uhhh okay thats cool I guess
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Dec 1, 2011 00:07
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And there's also the fact that some people don't learn well under pressure, and would benefit a lot more from playing casuals, something that's especially true at a lower level of play.
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Dec 1, 2011 00:09
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40 OZ posted:Let me get this straight, so all of this yakking has been solely about the (Expected Value) of cash when entering a tournament? And I'd agree with you.
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Dec 1, 2011 00:10
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40 OZ posted:Let me get this straight, so all of this yakking has been solely about the (Expected Value) of cash when entering a tournament? Absolutely not. I do like how you're just waiting to circle the wagons and get huffy though! Bye.
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Dec 1, 2011 00:14
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I think it's still fun to enter into a tournament, and the ones I do are like $2 (On top of the $10 I'll spend on the cabinets themselves). I mean if you're looking at it from a COMPLETELY logical standpoint, yeah there's probably no reason to enter based solely on performance if you're not up to snuff. You could potentially line up the hundreds of people who won't make it to top 30 at EVO and explain to them the futility of what they're doing, but some people just enjoy the scene. Being a part of it, whether you do well or not, is still a lot of fun.
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Dec 1, 2011 00:18
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Absolutely not. I do like how you're just waiting to circle the wagons and get huffy though! Bye.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 1, 2011 00:20
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40 OZ posted:40 OZ, that is a very low content post... somewhat like this one, and my earlier proposed "LOL" post. Edit: Hey, did you ever add me on PSN for KOF 13? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 1, 2011 00:22
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JesusLovesRonwell posted:40 OZ, that is a very low content post... somewhat like this one, and my earlier proposed "LOL" post. I uh, cheated and bought it for 360 too before 4-5 guys replied and said they got it. I'll go through and add everyone tonight.
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Dec 1, 2011 00:25
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So, the people that play fighting games around here are apparently kinda into Melty Blood, so I guess I'm picking that game up since they won't play SFIV, the only game I'm competent at. I'm loving around as H-VSion right now, which I guess is one of the strongest characters so good on me. Any pointers for someone that's very new to airdash fighters and that would rather sit full screen from people spamming projectiles?
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Dec 1, 2011 00:32
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If they are also into AH3 you should get that and play it with me on PSN.
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Dec 1, 2011 00:36
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Hey, I've got AH3! If I haven't mentioned it before in this thread, I'm Roguemagus on PSN. Let's play sometime.
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Dec 1, 2011 00:45
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Dias posted:So, the people that play fighting games around here are apparently kinda into Melty Blood, so I guess I'm picking that game up since they won't play SFIV, the only game I'm competent at. I'm loving around as H-VSion right now, which I guess is one of the strongest characters so good on me. Any pointers for someone that's very new to airdash fighters and that would rather sit full screen from people spamming projectiles?
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Dec 1, 2011 00:49
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JesusLovesRonwell posted:It's just difficult for people so invested in something to look at it objectively and honestly. It's not so much this as much as the fact that, for most people, without attending tournaments these things Bathtub Cheese posted:Participating in a tourney that you're statistically unlikely to place in is not really worth your time when it could be spent playing casuals -- learning new things/meeting new people or MMs, where you have a much higher chance of a payout and a larger number of games to adapt to your opponent. aren't really possible (which I realize he addresses in a section of this post that I cut off). I'll admit that with his first post I lumped "tournaments" and "everything that goes along with tournaments" (the things listed above) into one thing hence my response. Not that I agree with him because I think there is value to entering tournaments but I thought I'd clarify my stance. EDIT: Groghammer posted:Hey, I've got AH3! If I haven't mentioned it before in this thread, I'm Roguemagus on PSN. Let's play sometime. I'll shoot you an invite now. I almost never play so I'm terrible but that game is too fun. rivals fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 00:59
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Dias posted:So, the people that play fighting games around here are apparently kinda into Melty Blood, so I guess I'm picking that game up since they won't play SFIV, the only game I'm competent at. I'm loving around as H-VSion right now, which I guess is one of the strongest characters so good on me. Any pointers for someone that's very new to airdash fighters and that would rather sit full screen from people spamming projectiles? Where the hell do you live, so I can move there? Seriously though, I don't play Melty Blood very often anymore, but Melty Bread and the Mizuumi Wiki for Melty Blood are probably the two best resources for the series in English.
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Dec 1, 2011 01:10
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