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In any corporate structure you really should have your sup deliver this feedback to that sup. Reps ratting out other reps is never a good situation.
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Dec 1, 2011 04:26
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As with everyone else, I wouldn't go over anyone's head. I would ask if your sup could forward it on for you though, still have it addressed to the same guy but let them send it away. Do you have a peer feedback system, because you can use that to bring attention to stuff like this as well.
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Dec 1, 2011 08:56
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Also, if the supervisor delivers the feedback it might come across as less whiny than it does here, i.e. it will be more matter-of-fact, here's what happened, here's how it negatively impacts, do something about it etc
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Dec 1, 2011 09:51
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Go through your line manager\sup\team leader\whatever. More likely to get the outcome you want, less like to get peoples backs up.
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Dec 1, 2011 15:32
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My callcentre not too long ago employed four new people. They're either really awful or absolutely fantastic and there is no middle ground. Of course nobody wants to hear about decent coworkers so I'll talk about the bad ones. Both of them are terrible in their own way. One guy has no idea about appropriate behaviour in the workplace, keeps supporting stuff we don't officially support and takes way too long getting things done. The other guy is just lazy - shift supervisor assigns him work, he either makes a half-arsed effort at doing it or just doesn't do it, then goes home. That and he burns bridges indiscriminately - turns out the day he 'had to leave early because something has a broken and a [plumber|electrician] is on his way right now' actually meant 'Skyrim has broken street date and I must leave right now to collect my copy, head home and play it' and thinks we should be cool with him leaving us in the lurch because he was too impatient to wait a few hours to play a game. I'm not too bothered by the first guy - most of the initial 'dude is creepy' problems were resolved by talking to him and he's now not as terrible as he was when he originally started. The second guy, however, just won't be told. It's as if he doesn't want a job, he's aware he's on probation and yet keeps doing things that puts him on the poo poo list of everybody who has to work with him. Hell, even I'm tempted to complain to the shift supervisor because I now have a pattern of 'go to work, see [lazy coworker] hasn't done much of his assigned work, do [lazy coworkers] assigned work, message the shift supervisor indicating I did it, find something else to do'. froglet fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 18:03
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Thanks for the advice. I decided to sleep on it and I'm not going to send it. My normal boss is out on maternity leave for the next 3 months, and my interim boss is an incompetent breasticle, and it might raise some hackles if I go around his head. meh. I don't give a poo poo about this place anymore. I just found out the other day that the way they calculate our QA ratings is utterly hosed-up. I just can't care anymore. I'm going to do some jagerbombs when I get home tonight, they'll make me feel better.
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Dec 2, 2011 19:38
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Ugh, at what point do outbound callers say that enough is enough? I donated once to the DSCC back in the day (like, years ago) and every two months they'll start blowing up my phone to get me to donate again. I told the last guy back in September I would (and didn't) and now they've disturbed me at work and woken me up, so the lady who called me this morning got me raising my voice over her and a cold hang-up. Sorry you had to be the one, my friend, but next time don't have your organization call me fifteen loving times in one week from a BLOCKED number and then try to run through your script instead of engaging me in conversation.
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Dec 4, 2011 20:57
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If any of you work for that "HI THIS IS RACHEL FROM CARDHOLDER SERVICES  " outfit then I hope you die  I've gotten -30- loving robocalls from them this week.
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Dec 4, 2011 21:34
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Cup of Hemlock posted:Ugh, at what point do outbound callers say that enough is enough? Never. And it is your fault that you keep getting called because if you want it to stop, you have the power to make that happen. Just tell them to stop calling you. Don't say "not now", don't just hang up, just calmly and politely ask them to not call you again. And I can't speak for the specific company you're talking about, but I know that I really don't have much leeway to deviate from the script most of the time, and there are generally reasons for that, whether it's about efficiency, consistency, legal requirements, etc. So if it's going to bother you that there's a script, save everyone some time and frustration and just ask to not be called.
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Dec 5, 2011 08:06
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I did, and that's when she launched into recovery mode and by that point I was so frustrated I wasn't going to give her anything more. I see what you're saying; I don't believe I should have to do anything i.e. the burden is on her. Didn't hear from them any more today so hopefully I have a "grouch" red flag or something.
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Dec 5, 2011 08:11
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Cup of Hemlock posted:I did, and that's when she launched into recovery mode and by that point I was so frustrated I wasn't going to give her anything more. I see what you're saying; I don't believe I should have to do anything i.e. the burden is on her. I work for a dialer company, and a large percentage of our customers are fundraisers. The long and short of it is, you're hosed. Do Not Call doesn't apply to this class of outbound dialing, so they're under no obligation to stop calling you, even if you tell them to stop. It's worth asking, some places choose to maintain a DNC list since if someone requests it, they probably won't donate. Unfortunately, you already gave money, so you're doubly hosed and will be called forever. As for the agents, they try to run through their script because that is literally all they are allowed to do. If they deviate from the script, they're risking their job (many scripts for these campaigns have giant "DEVIATE AND WE WILL FIRE YOU" warnings on top of them, just as a constant reminder). "Recovery mode" is on the required script as well. An agent on fundraising is basically a robot (there's actually a system out there that just has canned recordings for the agent to select and play, so you're never even talking to a real person). Just hang up if you aren't interested in giving them money.
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Dec 6, 2011 05:42
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You may want to look at your phone provider and see if they offer anonymous call rejection as a feature as well.
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Dec 6, 2011 14:08
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Just wanted to come in and brag about my first $200 day in an 8 hour period. Got to love commission (sometimes) 24 sales though. And people say I need a "real job" or one that takes effort. Right.
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Dec 13, 2011 03:19
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I've always wanted to try sales. My previous job was as an administrator in a small sales office (database work, envelopes, marketing, etc). It was fun watching the sales people on their ups and downs, who would be the big stud that week and eat poo poo the next. Sometimes they'd get 20-25 dozen sunglasses at $10 a pop commission and be on top of the world.
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Dec 13, 2011 03:59
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Harminoff posted:Just wanted to come in and brag about my first $200 day in an 8 hour period. Got to love commission (sometimes) I get that attitude whenever I mingle with people in other departments at my company for various projects and it is the most annoying thing. I'm not going to say I have the most difficult or skilled job, but I'm still completely monitored AND I'm only allowed to go to the bathroom three times a day. My job is super completely annoying.
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Dec 15, 2011 02:34
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legsarerequired posted:I get that attitude whenever I mingle with people in other departments at my company for various projects and it is the most annoying thing. I'm not going to say I have the most difficult or skilled job, but I'm still completely monitored AND I'm only allowed to go to the bathroom three times a day. My job is super completely annoying. Yeah. And I wanted to shank the guy on the TSR side who ONLY sold upgrades and got buckets of commissions by promising that the upgrade would fix their slow issues. Turns out they would have stuff like latency because the line needed repair. He'd hang up on people who wouldn't buy and - welp. We all got to deal with the angry callers who couldn't get help or felt they got swindled. I really had to resist the urge to beat him with my shoe when he bragged about the couple hundred he made on commission. Yet he wouldn't go to Customer Service because they had a quota of sales. Gee.
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Dec 15, 2011 06:30
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Harminoff posted:Just wanted to come in and brag about my first $200 day in an 8 hour period. Got to love commission (sometimes) Not in call center, in retail, but hell yeah these days are wonderful.
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Dec 15, 2011 17:51
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Harminoff posted:Just wanted to come in and brag about my first $200 day in an 8 hour period. Got to love commission (sometimes) I wish I had your comission structure. Mine's based on sales goals set on a monthly basis. This month, if I sell 225 THOUSAND DOLLARS, I get 900 bucks. gently caress this job, so glad I'm headed back to school for another degree soon.
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Dec 18, 2011 01:13
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I work in a pretty successful  ISP, generally doing inbound accounts/support calls.Our ISP has recent bought out one of their main competitors and I actually work for a sub-brand of the company that was similarly bought out years and years ago. Most of our customers don't even know we're owned and run by the larger company despite our plans being exactly the same as them etc. We have a separate call centre to our parent company but during high load periods they cross over and we take calls for each other. All the customers are on the same internal system and there is really no difference between the companies besides the name on the bill. Hell, I have a username@staff.parentcompany.net.au and a username@staff.brand.com.au as well plus one for every of the hundred tiny ISPs we've purchased. Anyway, long lead up aside it is always great to hear a customer rant about something and say they are going to leave us to join another ISP and have them list an ISP owned by the same parent company or even the parent company itself.
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Dec 28, 2011 14:03
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Karandras posted:I work in a pretty successful I used to work on the phones for one of the main UK banks doing collections, and a few years ago they merged the bank's two main brands collections activity, so instead of just dealing with Brand X we also had Brand Y. The very first ranty customer I got from Brand Y was refusing to put any money into his student account and was writing backed cheques to Dominoes Pizza to take him further overdrawn (on the basis that "It is the only way I can eat!" - yes, of course, cheque fraud is the only way you can eat). He confidently assured me that a) everything we were doing in pursuing him for his £2500 overdraft (of which £2000 was agreed and the other £500 was mostly from abusing his cheque card) was illegal, but that the student advisor from Brand X had informed him he could move all his banking to them with no problems and be granted a £3000 facility. Firstly, the products for both brands were near as drat it exactly the same, so there's no way he would have got a limit that high (the £2000 he had was usually reserved for graduates and had been given him by his branch as an exceptional case and he STILL went over it), and secondly there was no way the system would let him open an account with Brand X while he had an account that was horribly hosed with Brand Y. I JUST managed to bite my tongue to avoid telling him all this (as we weren't allowed to discuss one brand's stuff while representing the other), but couldn't quite resist a "Speak to you soon" as I ended the call.
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Dec 28, 2011 14:15
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Gothmog1065 posted:
I love those people. At my job, we primarily deliver internet/phone services through T1 lines nationwide, and sometimes, to offer cost-effective methods, we will provision or rate-limit a T1. Its awesome to deal with a networking tech with "30 plus years in the field of the internet and network" that cant figure out why putting 30-40 computers on a 384kb fractional T1 line will bog it down to poo poo. I got more horror stories. 8 years and 4 departments of horror stories. I'll be back.
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Dec 28, 2011 21:22
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Man I love loving with "unreasonably angry caller right at the start" Had a call come in, boop boop, "GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR, GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR, GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR, GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR, GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR, GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR, GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR, Sir, if I could just get your policy numb- GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR Sir, I can do that, but I need a reference for them, if you GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR GET ME TO A SUPERVISOR!!! In between stifling laughter and running his phone number through a search and not finding anything, I kept trying to insist he give me his name or number or something, then I realized he wouldn't, so I said I'd just transfer him YOU'RE AN rear end in a top hat! What a charming fellow 
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Dec 28, 2011 21:35
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After reading this thread a few months ago I told myself I'd never take a phone job. There was no way I would deal with screaming customers all day. Of course, a friend of mine gave me a lead on a small ticketing business looking for a support agent. I really needed the money and the company is affiliated with another company I really like (we share an office) so I decided to take the job. After reading all these support horror stories I was scared I would have a nervous breakdown within a month (especially since I'm really, really bad with confrontation.) ...But it seems I've lucked out since it's pretty much the chillest support job in the world. I started off as a part-time support agent but now I'm full-salary, doing internal support and their social media. I take about 10 calls a day on average. Right now I'm laying in my boyfriend's bed with my laptop waiting for calls to come in because the office is closed. I'll get 3 days in lieu for this. I guess small businesses are better to work for? v  vHowever, we do use a local call centre for our phone sales and a lot of my job is hearing from people who have had the call centre gently caress up their orders like how some people will sell seats to a show and tell them it's one place but it ends up somewhere else.
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Dec 29, 2011 18:55
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Apparently I am going to help out with recruiting graduates at job fairs. I'm really excited about having actual weekends and getting paid to be off the phone, but I am going to feel so depressingly fake.
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Jan 4, 2012 00:55
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I know the answer to this, but this is a rant thread, right? Why in loving hell does a large ISP send technicians (Inhouse no less) to a house to work on someone's wireless network that has NO loving CLUE on how to set up a wireless network, and some have NO CLUE on how to even run a goddamn computer. I literally spent 45 minutes walking one of our techs through how to connect to a wireless connection.
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Jan 4, 2012 21:30
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Gothmog1065 posted:Why in loving hell does a large ISP send technicians (Inhouse no less) to a house to work on someone's wireless network that has NO loving CLUE on how to set up a wireless network, and some have NO CLUE on how to even run a goddamn computer. I literally spent 45 minutes walking one of our techs through how to connect to a wireless connection. Because they have relatives is cushy office jobs in the corporate offices of said large ISP.
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Jan 4, 2012 21:48
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I had the most soul-shattering exchange today.  Hi, I'm Quitters, calling from Firm Name. I'm calling in regards to a form you'd filled out online about social security disability." Oh, that? I just popped up on my AOL. I figured it was important, otherwise it wouldn't have been popping up. ...I feel so, so bad for anyone that has to come in contact with that man's computer. It must have all the spyware on the internet on it.
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Jan 5, 2012 17:15
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trunkwontopen posted:Because they have relatives is cushy office jobs in the corporate offices of said large ISP. Yeah, it's pretty bullshit. The guy sounded old as gently caress. This company takes pretty good care of it's employees in terms of benefits, but when it comes to actual support help we get lovely programs that break, lovely techs that are stupid (I was so glad to get a field tech who had a wifi analyzer on his smartphone), no way to change anything. I can't wait to get out of this job, but there's nothing closer and driving an hour sucks, and the bigger cities with more jobs are a longer drive.
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Jan 5, 2012 19:36
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AlphaDog posted:I have another question for all the workers in this thread. Make it clear whether you're emailing in about the company, the rep, or your particular issue, especially if you're complaining. If my boss gets an email saying, "My issue wasn't resolved, your people couldn't do anything, blah blah blah" they'll dismiss it as a customer probably being unreasonable. If you send one saying "I spoke to _____, he was rude and couldn't answer any of my questions about <issue>" they'll take more notice. One email like this isn't going to do much, but several for the same person might. Incidentally, I prefer customers to email our general line to say I was awesome rather than be transferred to a supervisor. The email gets sent out to the entire department and then there's a written record of it. Complaint emails do not get distributed this way. If you say exactly the same things to a sup, assuming one's available, then they may or may not remember even speaking to you an hour later. Quick question. When I get a customer email saying "Sorry I was rude, miryei was awesome and professional" I generally keep a copy of it. Is that a useful thing to do?
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Jan 6, 2012 19:27
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miryei posted:Make it clear whether you're emailing in about the company, the rep, or your particular issue, especially if you're complaining. If my boss gets an email saying, "My issue wasn't resolved, your people couldn't do anything, blah blah blah" they'll dismiss it as a customer probably being unreasonable. If you send one saying "I spoke to _____, he was rude and couldn't answer any of my questions about <issue>" they'll take more notice. Might come in handy in performance reviews if you're required to evidence some sort of customer service competency. Probably also if you go for a higher up position as well; both shows that you're good at your job and good at keeping hold of relevant evidence. I've lost track of the number of times I've interviewed someone that assures me they're great at customer service but can't think of a single example when asked to do so.
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Jan 6, 2012 23:06
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I got a new, non call center job last month and it's amazing how many things about call center life just start to seem normal to you. It was revelatory to me when, at my new job, I had to take a piss, and just... got up and went to the men's room, without anyone nagging me about unscheduled logouts or whatever else. Also, I was really disgruntled and by the end was just hanging up on whoever talked to me like I was stupid. RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS fucked around with this message at 09:56 on Jan 7, 2012 |
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Jan 7, 2012 09:19
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I've got my first year in the bag and 3 months on top. The only part of the job I actively hate are the poo poo/stupid/bad phone line callers. Progressive is still a really chill company with enough of a lax attitude to make the workplace really enjoyable.
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Jan 7, 2012 15:35
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Rant: If your account number is 14567008413564, it is not "One, forty-five, sixty-seven hundred, eight, four, one hundred and thirty-five, sixty-four". It is "One four five, six seven zero, eight four one, three five six four" Anecdote: My company does customer service and some light tech support for certain aspects of other companies. This means that other company's reps will sometimes call in with a customer to get an issue resolved. I've shortened this a bit, but everything I cut out was just repeats of what's shown in the second half.  Hi, thank you for calling <company>, this is Miryei, how can I help you? Miryei, you said? This is Ashley* from <company2>, I have a customer on the line. He's having some trouble with (describes issue) It looks like you're using the same IP for him that you were using six months ago. Is his IP static? Well he hasn't changed anything. Most IPs are dynamic, meaning that they change periodically, even if he hasn't changed anything on his end. You just need to get the new one from him. But if he didn't change anything, shouldn't his IP be the same? No. But put him on the line, we'll get this sorted out. But there's a language barrier. He doesn't speak much English. Oh.... okay. Put him on anyway, we'll work through it. Hi, this is miryei from <company> (moderate Spanish accent) Hi, this is Pedro*! THIS. <COMPANY>. THEY HELP. Your IP probably changed, we just need a new one. But I didn't do anything different! Most IPs are dynamic, meaning that they change sometimes, even if you don't change anything on your end. YOU. GIVE. BAD. IP. No, it was right at the time, it's just different now. Why would IPs change like that? There aren't enough to go around, so every time you log out someone else gets yours. Then when you log on again, you get a new one. Oh, okay. YOU. GIVE. WRONG. IP. NEED GOOD IP. So how do I found my IP? Are you at that computer now? No, it's at another location. But if he didn't change anything, shouldn't the IP be the same? It changes sometimes. / No, they just change sometimes. I don't understand. We just need the new IP, then you'll be good to go! Pendro, when you get to the other computer, I want you to open an internet browser and go to ipchicken.com. That's chicken, like the bird. He won't be able to do all that. Okay! ipchicken.com. Once I get there, then what? NEED. NEW. IP. It'll show your IP in nice big numbers in the middle of the screen. Once you get that, you can call us back and we'll get this set up for you. (typing) Oh okay. I've pulled that up here to see what it looks like. That's easy enough. Okay, so just call us back when you're at the other location. YOU. CALL. BACK. SOON? Sure! Ashley, I'll just call you back on your cell.The customer had a moderate, not thick, Spanish accent, but spoke quickly and clearly and used English like a native, including contractions and colloquialisms. I have no idea why he didn't get offended at the other rep. *not their real names
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Jan 7, 2012 15:56
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I like how I get taken off the phones to help out with random projects. I was assisting during interviews for new reps the other day and it was so great remembering what non-call center work was like.
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Jan 8, 2012 03:11
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Sooo...one of my coworkers is likely on the chopping block because of forgetting to mute someone. She got into the bad habit of putting problematic customers/clients on mute, and ranting about them, while still half-listening. Only problem is the other day she forgot to mute her headset, and the prospect got an earful of her ranting about how horrible this person was being. I love my mute button, but that's because it lets me do things like sneak a piece of candy/a pretzel or something while a customer is talking about their problems. Or sneeze. Or cough. And now we're all risking losing our ability to mute because of dumb oval office. \/\/\/ i really hope they don't pull all of our mute privledges because of this. We already got told by our sup to use the hold button instead of mute if we had to ask a question, which i understand, but all this is because this girl abused her mute button. Like would put people on mute and take personal calls on her cell phone abused it. I like my mute button because I get away with things I'm not supposed to get away with (snacking at my desk) while still being customer-service oriented. I will be surprised if said dumb oval office makes it past her 3 month evaluation, she's one of the new hires and just...keeps loving up. Dr Jankenstein fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Jan 10, 2012 |
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Jan 9, 2012 04:02
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Ugh, I hate people who rant mid call. Wait until its over, or do some pantomime to your neighbor, but you KNOW you're going to miss that loving mute button some day! Besides, if you let it build long enough, you'll have a more fun melt down after the call. One time my buddy had a retarded couple who insisted on having each aspect of insurance explained to them, but each time, one couldn't get it they'd have to pass the phone back to the other, they were like sharing a brain. Finally the call ends and my friend is pounding on his desk screaming NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN! like Basterds. Soooooooo great, made my year.
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Jan 9, 2012 04:11
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I worked in a call center for about 7 years, did a solid three of em on the phones in all queues (tech X, tech Y, tech Z, sales). Fortunately the last 4 or so was entirely off the phones in a supervisory r0ole and really giving a poo poo about our reps and helping them in any way possible. I can say I really cared. Some of the more memorable moments: - customer calling in repeatedly and screaming at whomever answered. before I could program the ACD to blackhole his number he had called in and threatened to murder/rape the poor young lady who had taken his call. The police paid him a visit that night - angry/jealous ex-boyfriends calling in after hours leaving voicemails airing dirty laundry about female employee X - crazy schizo guy upset his pay per view function was disabled due to high balance; cited a medical necessity to have pay per view. I was relieved when I read him about later in the Obit, that I would never have to deal with him again - one of our more crazy/eccentric/difficult customers smoked a cigarette in bed and blew herself up.. oxygen tank nearby.. was relieved to read about that one as well - police detective paying us a visit after lobby hours were closed to find out who a certain phone # belonged to. Said a 15 year old girl ran off and the owner of this # probably was the perp. Felt bad, but couldn't help. Need a subpoena. Not without a loving subpoena. Why not? Because the company could get sued, and me fired. The police and the telcos have an established process; make the emergency contact to the local judge who will gladly write one up, and contact the people I told him to once he got that. He refused to listen and ran my ID. Bam, outstanding bench warrant for failure to appear over some noise ordinance stuff (that wasn't even my fault). Officer threatens to throw me in jail, I tell him to arrest me or gently caress off. He left. We let his Lieutenant know the next day that he failed to follow procedures and processes, and we didn't appreciate him shaking down employees (btw, we had been donating all their TV/Internet/Phone service to the local station for some time). - employees suffering chest pains / heart attacks due to stress - One of the more crazy people in town calling in one tuesday morning years ago, concocting yet another wild story, this one happened to be true I found out when I loaded cnn.com out of boredom trying to get him off the phone and the page was blank, one line in caps: "PLANE CRASHES INTO WTC, MORE DETAILS TO COME" - the site was getting hammered from traffic. - employees not liking their job so much they would just straight up hang on up whenever an inbound call came in, employees screaming and throwing poo poo when getting fired or just plain quitting. Someone said it before, you either are really good and can handle this or you can't, not much of an in between. -co-worker putting a customer on hold, muting him, saying "god that guy is loving stupid". Mute button didn't work properly even though it looked like it. Fortunately for him the customer was dumber than a box rocks, and concurred with him .. "Yeah, I hear ya man, people can be that stupid". I remember the "know it all" customers, like a guy who said he worked in a NOC and it didn't matter if the lines to his house was cut, we should be able to "program the switch" to turn his internet back on. You have those names that make you cringe when you see it come across the screen. You even remember their full address by heart. You think, maybe only briefly, if you were diagnosed with cancer who would go on the hit list. Some of these customers were so awful you'd have them up ahead of politicians and lawyers, and anyone else that screwed you over. God drat, I am glad to be far far from this profession. But I am thankful as well, because it gave me professional experience and while everyone else was calling in sick to play WoW well into the late evenings, I was studying everything and anything I could, and have a decent IT career making roughly 4x what I was. If you're still in this profession and serious about it, I have mad respect and you and hope you use this as a launching pad for greener pastures. nicky_glasses fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Jan 10, 2012 |
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Jan 10, 2012 02:32
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So I may be on the block for being a few minutes late a couple times. I used up all my time last year in the first 2 months watching my Niece while my Nephew was in and out of the hospital getting a bone marrow transplant for his leukemia. They refused me FMLA or anything to be able to help. I said "gently caress it, my family comes first" I worked out with my family that I was watching my Niece until my father got out of 3rd shift, and then I'd BOLT out the door and just barely make it to work. However, there were times when I'd hit traffic/etc and be 1-2 minutes late (never more than 5). I was #1 in the call center for an entire year, won awards, represented the call center in a company wide competition due to my product knowledge, but after they told me "no FMLA, sorry" I just lost all my drive. I can't wait to get out, and I DEFINITELY can't wait for the exit interview...
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Jan 10, 2012 04:09
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To be honest, you either qualify for FMLA or you don't, there is no gray area.
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Jan 10, 2012 04:53
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Bovril Delight posted:To be honest, you either qualify for FMLA or you don't, there is no gray area. Well sure, but its not like a business doesn't have the right to give someone unpaid leave of absence. Its not the exact letter of the law or you have to work. They were choosing to be uncooperative.
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Jan 10, 2012 05:04
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