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mind the walrus posted:It doesn't bug me to the point where I'd abandon the series--there have been worse crimes against the reader committed already and I'm still here--but it is a valid topic for analysis. Not necessarily criticism, analysis and yes, argument. À propos: when I read the prologue of AGOT in a bookstore way back when, the wights were what got me to pick it up in the first place. So maybe that's why I don't mind (or rather: love) the direction this series has taken in that sense.
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Dec 1, 2011 23:30
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Azure_Horizon posted:Pot calling the kettle black regarding some people in this thread, but sure, yes, I'm being an rear end in a top hat. Analyze the magic all you want, but it's not an actual negative that magic is saturating the novels at this point. There are a multitude of things to bitch about AFFC and ADWD, apparently, but the increase in magic isn't really one of them. What's an 'actual negative'? And I'm actually not necessarily speaking from my own opinion here, but hypothetically: if someone were invested in the series for its alt-world War of the Roses narrative, might they not have valid reason to be worried that the political or personal tension in the story could be undercut by the rise of supernatural elements? Like say you're really into the books because you love how GRRM is willing to kill off characters. You love that a writer is willing to unexpectedly, abruptly, and finally terminate the stories of central characters. If characters start coming back as zombies, and their stories resume, doesn't that change something you love about the series? This isn't a passive-aggressive way of stating my own views, but I do feel it's something we might see come up as the TV show moves forward.
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Dec 1, 2011 23:42
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General Battuta posted:What's an 'actual negative'? And I'm actually not necessarily speaking from my own opinion here, but hypothetically: if someone were invested in the series for its alt-world War of the Roses narrative, might they not have valid reason to be worried that the political or personal tension in the story could be undercut by the rise of supernatural elements? I think that it's too soon to assume that the supernatural elements are going to overtake the political element of the series. The politics are still very much there, if seen moreso in AFFC than in ADWD, it's just that events are happening beyond the realm of politics, much like we've seen the entire series. The fight over the Iron Throne, and the game of thrones in general, has always been overshadowed by the looming presence of danger beyond the Wall and Dany's dragons. I don't think change is necessarily a bad thing so long as that change makes sense, and probably the only resurrected character I've had a problem with thus far is Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart. I've yet to see what the point of her coming back is, and I'm hoping the next book fleshes it out.
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Dec 1, 2011 23:50
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I do personally like the idea of dragons being this big strategic thing that really tips the balance of power, that's pretty cool. Lucky we saw all that progress towards Dany being able to use them in warfare 
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Dec 1, 2011 23:53
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General Battuta posted:If characters start coming back as zombies, and their stories resume, doesn't that change something you love about the series? No, because that exact thing happens in the very first chapter of the series. So unexpected is the very last thing it is. I agree that deaths that don't stick can cheapen a narrative considerably when used willy-nilly (looking at you, Joss Whedon), but GRRM uses it so sparingly, with commensurate ramifications and such a huge cost for the characters involved (Catelyn especially) that he earns and works for the exceptions while still keeping the vast majority of deaths absolutely final and irreversible. Jon notwithstanding, death in ADWD is still just as shocking and sudden, narratively meaningful and emotionally agonizing as it was back in AGOT.
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Dec 1, 2011 23:55
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General Battuta posted:I do personally like the idea of dragons being this big strategic thing that really tips the balance of power, that's pretty cool. Lucky we saw all that progress towards Dany being able to use them in warfare I'll be right there with you if, in The Winds of Winter, Dany doesn't seriously gently caress poo poo up with those dragons. Hopefully Meereen, tentatively Casterly Rock or something, provided she heads east. Azure_Horizon fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Dec 2, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 23:55
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I think the exact moment I stopped hoping for magic staying in the backseat of this series was Melisandre and her Leeches killing off people. I liked it a lot better when there was a big question mark over everyones various gods and then bloooooooooooop nevermind this one works and it can kill off kings.
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Dec 1, 2011 23:55
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Joramun posted:No, because that exact thing happens in the very first chapter of the series. So unexpected is the very last thing it is. I can't really agree. No characters return from the dead in Night of the Living Dead or whatever; they come back as zombies, monsters. Same with the prologue of Game of Thrones. There are ice zombies out there in the winter, it's pretty mysterious and intriguing, but there aren't any characters being resurrected by the power of evil forces/gods/supernatural beings and remaining characters. Or at least that was my take on it, and the root of my surprise when I read spoilers about the zombie characters who turned up later. Joramun posted:I agree that deaths that don't stick can cheapen a narrative considerably when used willy-nilly (looking at you, Joss Whedon), but GRRM uses it so sparingly, with commensurate ramifications and such a huge cost for the characters involved (Catelyn especially) that he earns and works for the exceptions while still keeping the vast majority of deaths absolutely final and irreversible. Jon notwithstanding, death in ADWD is still just as shocking and sudden, narratively meaningful and emotionally agonizing as it was back in AGOT. For me - and this is subjective, I acknowledge that - I'm not sure that ASOIAF has ever elevated itself far enough above pulp for me to really find it meaningful or emotionally agonizing. It can be a hell of a lot of fun, though, with lots of great twists and turns. I think you have much more respect for GRRM's talent as a writer than I do, but it's okay to differ on that. I'm actually not hugely averse to magic, but I tend to find the setting's geopolitics and feudal, uh, feuding more interesting than prophecies and gods. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Dec 2, 2011 |
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Dec 2, 2011 00:05
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The moment I almost threw my book across the room when I read the Red Wedding was when I realized ASOIAF was a bit more involving than pulp (I then read some Vonnegut in the interim between ASOS and AFFC to erase the anger). But as far as GRRM's talent as a writer, I prefer Sandkings to ASOIAF, because that's a loving awesome story that I put right up there with the Dune Chronicles and Hyperion as God-tier science fiction.
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Dec 2, 2011 00:08
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I got pissed at the books when Arya got hit with the Hound's axe at the Twins. Two parts of my mind were at war, one in disbelief and hoping she was not truly dead, the other sighing with disgust that it would be another fake-out death. And it was another fake-out. I was both glad and disappointed.
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Dec 2, 2011 00:15
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smarion2 posted:defiantly This is my least favorite writing mistake. The word is definitely as in, no, those suggestions definitely do not sound plausible. Dany won't ever give up on Westeros. Gurm grows older and his mind is becoming a sloppy mess overrun with football politics and pizza and girls who once touched him for more than a few seconds without giving in to their overwhelming disgust. It's natural that his writing ability would begin to decay with such distractions in life.
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Dec 2, 2011 00:33
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I came for Ned Stark and company, not loving dragons and red priests popping up everywhere making zombie limbs. The wights and ice zombies were more a force of nature and personification of winter, all Lady Stoneheart does is replace a good character fighting injustice (Beric) with a lovely one focused on revenge. It's not that the increasing magic in the series (and it is increasing, you guys are loving deluding yourselves) its that GRRM's ability to write in a cohesive manner has waned and it comes out sounding stupid, like Tyrion's Disney ride past the stone men (what was the deal with the bizarre deja vu sequence?) Also, I can't remember ever liking Dany and the dragons. Bad Thread stockholm syndrome?
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Dec 2, 2011 00:38
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my cat is norris posted:It's natural that his writing ability would begin to decay with such distractions in life.
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Dec 2, 2011 00:39
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Joramun posted:And yet in terms of style and cadence, ADWD is his best written work yet. No matter what you think of the plot or structure (which I still adore, but that's down to personal taste), the prose is just beautiful. Well gently caress you then, for prose is just words and words are wind.
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Dec 2, 2011 00:41
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my cat is norris posted:This is my least favorite writing mistake. The word is definitely as in, no, those suggestions definitely do not sound plausible. Dany won't ever give up on Westeros. 
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Dec 2, 2011 00:44
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my cat is norris posted:This is my least favorite writing mistake. The word is definitely as in, no, those suggestions definitely do not sound plausible. Dany won't ever give up on Westeros. This is an editing problem, from his editor, rather than being indicative of his writing ability. Joramun: Jesus have I been waiting for someone else besides me to say that ADWD's prose is beautiful.
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Dec 2, 2011 00:48
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Azure_Horizon posted:This is an editing problem, from his editor, rather than being indicative of his writing ability. Gurm is an editor by trade, he should have some idea how to control his own works, and apparently his actual editor is full blown retarded from her interviews about ADWD. The magic isn't what is bad, in any case, this is a stupid argument.
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Dec 2, 2011 00:53
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bigmcgaffney posted:Gurm is an editor by trade, he should have some idea how to control his own works, and apparently his actual editor is full blown retarded from her interviews about ADWD. Well, yeah, but his editor is also the reason a lot of things weren't caught such as repeated phrases, some typos here and there, and whole plot events moved to the next novel. I blame her for the not-as-fantastic ADWD.
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Dec 2, 2011 01:07
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Azure_Horizon posted:whole plot events moved to the next novel I can overlook repeated phrases and typos, but yeah, the only thing she did apparently edit was a Colossal loving Mistake that throws off the pacing entirely.
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Dec 2, 2011 01:11
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Joramun posted:And yet in terms of style and cadence, ADWD is his best written work yet. No matter what you think of the plot or structure (which I still adore, but that's down to personal taste), the prose is just beautiful. What? It's the laziest poo poo he's written yet. The magic argument is really stupid though.
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Dec 2, 2011 01:15
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I can't agree with the eloquence of his prose, but I will say his character arcs are great. His ability to show the growth of a character (sometimes literally) over the course of the series is something I can't say I've seen in other series I've read. The lack of focus on one character certainly helps in this matter, but to be honest, it seems hard to evoke sympathy without a glimpse into a characters psyche. Theon and Jaime stand out in this regard. Jaime was really a matter of perspective. On the other hand, Theon's actions were reprehensible, but even after everything he did, I got a warm feeling when his last chapter was "Theon" and not some Reek iteration. I'm not really in a hurry for the series to end, so the length of the books never really bothered me. The journey is the destination and all that, and to be honest, very few fantasy works really have evocative endings. I enjoy all the setting descriptions, conversations, and minor character interactions. The one thing I'm getting sick of are the food descriptions, even taking GRRMs proclivities into account. Fleshing out a world beyond the main characters is something I enjoy, so GRRM scores points in my book. This is off topic, but in the vein of moving endings in fantasy, my favorite example is Planescape: Torment (the game). Not exactly high literature, but again, endings usually fall flat in comparison to their narrative.
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Dec 2, 2011 01:17
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smarion2 posted:MAGIC EVERYWHERE! Brony spotted!
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Dec 2, 2011 01:18
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Azure_Horizon posted:Joramun: Jesus have I been waiting for someone else besides me to say that ADWD's prose is beautiful.
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Dec 2, 2011 01:20
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Aurubin posted:I can't agree with the eloquence of his prose, but I will say his character arcs are great. His ability to show the growth of a character (sometimes literally) over the course of the series is something I can't say I've seen in other series I've read. The lack of focus on one character certainly helps in this matter, but to be honest, it seems hard to evoke sympathy without a glimpse into a characters psyche. Theon and Jaime stand out in this regard. Jaime was really a matter of perspective. On the other hand, Theon's actions were reprehensible, but even after everything he did, I got a warm feeling when his last chapter was "Theon" and not some Reek iteration. Joramun: If you haven't yet, check out the Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons. It has a similar feel to ASOIAF but is a blend of sci-fi and fantasy; massive worlds, intriguing character arcs, but a whole helluva lot more philosophy. Beautiful writing, too. The first book is basically The Canterbury Tales but sci-fi version.
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Dec 2, 2011 01:21
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If you want to enjoy the Hyperion books stop after the second one, as Endymion and Rise of Endymion retroactively render the first two less enjoyable (this is a rare feat). Also try to avoid reading too much about Dan Simmons' raging hatred of Muslims, even though it is hilarious. Try to avoid reading Ilium and Olympos too, since Simmons' talents have apparently deserted him.
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Dec 2, 2011 01:34
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General Battuta posted:If you want to enjoy the Hyperion books stop after the second one, as Endymion and Rise of Endymion retroactively render the first two less enjoyable (this is a rare feat). That's what I did when I recently read them on my Kindle.  Endymion looked lovely.
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Dec 2, 2011 01:42
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mind the walrus posted:They felt like GRRM legitimately needed to spice things up in the Tyrion plotline and pulled out a D&D book for inspiration. This is actually a good point, and I'd take it a step further... or sideways as it were: It's like we were playing D&D's "The Keep on the Borderlands" module, and while the DM got steadily more inebriated/stoned he started accidentally grabbing other modules and adding them to the mix. Tomb of Horrors, Slave Pits of the Undercity, The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan all are stacked onto what was once a manageable collection of Monster Manual subjects, to a mountain of Fiend Folio appearances and perhaps in the next book we'll see Vault of the Drow and World of Krynn, and then ultimately the DM dies of a pizza overdose. But yeah, stick to a loving module and play it through before saying "gently caress it", and switching to Curse of the Azure Bonds. Joramun posted:And yet in terms of style and cadence, ADWD is his best written work yet. No matter what you think of the plot or structure (which I still adore, but that's down to personal taste), the prose is just beautiful. Jesus christ. 
Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Dec 2, 2011 |
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Dec 2, 2011 01:59
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Joramun posted:There are so many passages in this book that are just breathtaking in terms of style and cadence and the images they evoke. I read a lot of non-genre literary fiction famous for its writing style and prose as well, but GRRM's writing is still amongst the most beautiful, gripping and wondrous in any genre. Even the utter horror and degradation Reek has to endure in Ramsay's castle becomes becomes almost alluring because of the luscious writing, which is why it evokes such cognitive dissonance. The prologue (Varamyr's POV chapter), any of the odes he writes to life on the Wall, Cersei's walk of shame and penance, the desciptions of Meereen, Yunkai, the Free Cities and the Haunted Forest, Dany flying on Drogon for the very first time... Just some examples, and simply exquisite. The cramping in Dany's bowels, the poo poo geyser erupting from her rear end in a top hat, simply glorious prose, it's almost like you're there, hearing it splatter wetly on the plains. 
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Dec 2, 2011 02:00
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IRQ posted:The cramping in Dany's bowels, the poo poo geyser erupting from her rear end in a top hat, simply glorious prose, it's almost like you're there, hearing it splatter wetly on the plains.
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Dec 2, 2011 02:05
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IRQ posted:The cramping in Dany's bowels, the poo poo geyser erupting from her rear end in a top hat, simply glorious prose, it's almost like you're there, hearing it splatter wetly on the plains. In a way, I hope her spat of bloody diarrhea becomes a plot point. I tend to play devil's advocate in forum arguments, but even if there is symbolism or veiled hints to the future, I really don't want to pick it out of poop. (wakka wakka)
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Dec 2, 2011 02:09
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General Battuta posted:If you want to enjoy the Hyperion books stop after the second one, as Endymion and Rise of Endymion retroactively render the first two less enjoyable (this is a rare feat). I'd argue Endymion and Rise of Endymion are better novels than the first two. The last one is incredibly fascinating. She had her period. It was not diarrhea.
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Dec 2, 2011 02:12
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Aurubin posted:In a way, I hope her spat of bloody diarrhea becomes a plot point. I tend to play devil's advocate in forum arguments, but even if there is symbolism or veiled hints to the future, I really don't want to pick it out of poop. (wakka wakka)
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Dec 2, 2011 02:13
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Azure_Horizon posted:I'd argue Endymion and Rise of Endymion are better novels than the first two. The last one is incredibly fascinating. There was definitely diarrhea. The blood is more mysterious.
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Dec 2, 2011 02:14
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Azure_Horizon posted:This is an editing problem, from his editor, rather than being indicative of his writing ability. The gently caress? Azure_Horizon posted:Joramun: Jesus have I been waiting for someone else besides me to say that ADWD's prose is beautiful. All it took was a parachute account a day old.
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Dec 2, 2011 02:15
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Azure_Horizon posted:She had her period. It was not diarrhea. Oh see now I know you're just trolling.
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Dec 2, 2011 02:22
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Fog Tripper posted:All it took was a parachute account a day old. And besides, can't you just have a discussion based on my arguments instead of my registration date? It makes it seem like you don't have any of your own and therefore have to resort to strawmen.
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Dec 2, 2011 02:23
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Joramun posted:You mean in terms of foreshadowing a miscarriage or something? Or an arrow to the gut? I glossed over her last chapter to be honest, waiting for the making GBS threads to end. If she had her period that's significant in the way that she's no longer barren, but hell, how could her ability to have kids impact the end of the story? I hope GRRM doesn't use a timeskip, they're a real copout.
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Dec 2, 2011 02:25
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Joramun posted:I'm not someone's alt or something, if that's what you're implying. I've been reading here for a while but only registered just recently. Not straw men. Stone men. Also Azure_Horizon you could argue Endymion is better than Hyperion, but I'm pretty sure you'd just be wrong.
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Dec 2, 2011 02:28
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Joramun posted:And besides, can't you just have a discussion based on my arguments instead of my registration date? What are your arguments? That GRRM's prose is breathtaking, wonderous, and exquisite? That's so qualitative it hurts.
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Dec 2, 2011 02:30
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Aurubin posted:I glossed over her last chapter to be honest, waiting for the making GBS threads to end. If she had her period that's significant in the way that she's no longer barren, but hell, how could her ability to have kids impact the end of the story? I hope GRRM doesn't use a timeskip, they're a real copout. I took it as her getting back her period again as well, I thought that was completely obvious. I'm actually surprised because this is the first time I've ever even heard of possible other interpretations.
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Dec 2, 2011 02:30
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