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STAT1C_X posted:Goddrat some of you are some gloomy, hateful people. Of course we are. Everyone here is either a lawyer or a law student. This should tell you something. mikeraskol fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 21:28
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STAT1C_X posted:It was a joke, mocking myself and my decision to attend law school, but okay! I knew you were joking but I am a lawyer so I don't understand humor. Promise us that you will come back in here and ask our advice once you have the list of schools to which you have been admitted. And promise that you will give us an update on which school you ultimately decide on.
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Dec 1, 2011 21:41
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STAT1C_X posted:How the gently caress can they require you to disclose "adjudications in which a sentence or judgment has been withheld, deferred, expunged, or the record sealed, regardless of whether you have been told that you need not disclose any such instance"? Doesn't that make such processes meaningless? And would they be able to learn of the incident if I do not disclose it? Finally, would the bar admission process similarly require me to disclose this information even though it's been expunged? If the answer to the last question is yes, the answers to the rest don't matter and I'll just suck it up and tell them about it.
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Dec 1, 2011 21:47
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STAT1C_X posted:I don't think there is anything mature and heroic about it, I acknowledge that I am When you consider this please remember that I was universally told by this thread that going to law school was the Right Decision and I am still loving miserable. However much you think you want to do this, you probably don't.
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Dec 1, 2011 23:19
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STAT1C_X posted:Goddrat some of you are some gloomy, hateful people. 1: assuming you get a job2 2: you won't
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Dec 1, 2011 23:24
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Given we're talking about disclosure. The Minnesota Bar made me disclose a failure to yield (ie running a stop sign) traffic ticket that got dismissed. They almost made me go to the court to get certified copies until I explained the court was several thousand miles away. Character and fitness is fun!
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Dec 1, 2011 23:30
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nm posted:Given we're talking about disclosure. e: I had to file a freedom of information act request to get the requested information.
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Dec 1, 2011 23:49
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I am so glad that I had lived a relatively boring and mundane existence up until after my admission to the bar.* * My existence is still boring and mundane, but I practice mountain law now!
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Dec 1, 2011 23:49
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STAT1C_X posted:I acknowledge that I am You should probably print this out and make it into a poster to put up on your wall. This way, you can pinpoint the exact moment when you thought running up a poo poo ton of debt for an uncertain and unstable future was the way to go. /am bitter about law school and all things law related
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Dec 2, 2011 00:48
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yea gently caress you retard static x shithead
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Dec 2, 2011 00:49
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Penguins Like Pies posted:You should probably print this out and make it into a poster to put up on your wall. This way, you can pinpoint the exact moment when you thought running up a poo poo ton of debt for an uncertain and unstable future was the way to go. High five buddy. When you start writing up a form "Suck my dick, rear end in a top hat" letter to companies and attorneys who haven't called you back, you know things are bad.
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Dec 2, 2011 01:34
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Soothing Vapors posted:fyi these gloomy, hateful people are the people you're going to be working with every day for the next 40 years1 until you are as gloomy and hateful as we are  I legitimately got a kick out of those nested footnotes.
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Dec 2, 2011 01:58
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Alright, I want some feedback from the tax guys in this thread. I already have a great job at the IRS, as a Revenue Agent. Realistically, the highest grade I can reach while remaining at this position is a GS-13, although I have heard of GS-14 RAs. I'm currently a GS-9 and about to be an 11 in March, at which time I'll have to compete for promotions to 12 and higher. I've already passed the CPA exam and should be licensed in another year or two at most. The accounting side of the job is interesting, but my favorite so far is definitely the technical tax law aspect. Obviously, having an understanding of one side is a huge help with the other. It seems to me that to reach the higher echelons of the tax law world, it certainly helps to have a JD, and at some point is basically required. Now, let me make one thing clear: I am NOT going to leave this job to go to law school, because I'm not a moron. I'm currently debt free and could work this job for the rest of my career if so inclined. As said before, I love the job and got it against all odds. We are since on a hiring freeze and the budget looks dire. Outside hires are going to be few and far between. My plan is to get somewhere with a night school that is as cheap as possible. Prestige means literally nothing to me, as I'm not trying to get a job at a law firm and don't care about impressing anybody with anything except with what I know. From there I can hopefully internally transition to Chief Counsel. Chief Counsel goes up to GS-15, as previously mentioned. I've spoken to the Supervisory Trial Attorney in my office and she said that while it depends on who the actual head of Counsel is, you can have a Harvard JD and an LLM in tax from NYU or a JD from NC Central and be on equal footing there when it comes to hiring. A side note, when questioning her about this she immediately mirrored this thread and said DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL NO JOBS DIE ALONE. There are also at least 4 lawyers working upstairs for free right now. from OPM.gov: GS-15 step 1 for rest of US: $113,735 GS-15 step 10 for rest of US: $147,857 GS-13 step 1 for rest of US: $81,823 GS-13 step 10 for rest of US: $106,639 It takes 18 years to go from step 1 to step 10. Including the time spent on lower grades, this approximates a career of 25-30 years. The difference of the average of the GS-13 and GS-15 high/low payscale is $36,565. Assuming my current net pay of 68% after taxes, pension, insurance etc. results in an average yearly difference of $24,864 net. Again, this is a very rough calculation and doesn't factor in the cost of the school or the time value of money. It seems to me like there is a financial incentive to make such a move, even if I never worked anywhere else besides the IRS. However, if I do decide to move into the private sector, I'd rather work long hours and get paid as a lawyer than as an accountant. From the law firm bio's I've read, this is a fairly common route to take for the tax partners at many DC law firms (Accounting background/CPA, IRS experience, Counsel, private sector). I know we've got a few tax lawyers in here, just wanted to hear what you all had to say for someone in my position.
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Dec 2, 2011 03:00
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Cyrezar posted:I have a job and no debt Don't go to law school.
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Dec 2, 2011 03:14
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Is that like TL:DR or something? I clearly said I have no intention of leaving my job. also 
heated game moment fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Dec 2, 2011 |
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Dec 2, 2011 03:22
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Do not waste your time and money going to night law school. also :warhammer: how do I make a warhammer guy Nero fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Dec 2, 2011 |
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Dec 2, 2011 03:28
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Cyrezar posted:Is that like TL:DR or something? I clearly said I have no intention of leaving my job. This is a lot of needless pain and agony (not to mention debt) to try and climb up the government ranks. You almost have a license and you already have tax experience, why not go work for Deloitte?
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Dec 2, 2011 03:29
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10-8 works for the IRS; he should be the only person capable of providing an intelligent answer to that question. Maybe you should talk to your boss about this? Your decision seems like an advancement kind of thing; if you barely eked into your current job, maybe even with a law degree you don't have the credential to get Chief Counsel or Grand Tax Wizard or whatever. That said: (1) You're debt free (2) Assuming you don't get a full ride, you'll not be debt free anymore (3) The IRS is on a hiring freeze and the budget situation looks dire Who says you have a shot at this and, even if you did, you may want to think about what happens if the next IRS budget cut includes you.
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Dec 2, 2011 03:31
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Omerta posted:10-8 works for the IRS; he should be the only person capable of providing an intelligent answer to that question. Maybe you should talk to your boss about this? Your decision seems like an advancement kind of thing; if you barely eked into your current job, maybe even with a law degree you don't have the credential to get Chief Counsel or Grand Tax Wizard or whatever. Yeah, I do realize I'm also probably the person in the best position to answer my own question, but I posted here so people would ridicule me and poke holes in my idea. It wasn't a question of barely getting the job due to grades or something, more that I was one of the lucky few to actually land the job %-wise. As mentioned multiple times in this thread (I've read every page), a lot of these Fed jobs have hundreds or thousands of applicants for very few positions. So having the credentials isn't a problem, I'd just have to be admitted to the bar to work in counsel. Sounds easy, huh. Since I'm in enforcement, the likelihood of cuts to my job series is remote at best. We are a huge revenue center for the government (imagine that). They are currently offering buy-outs and early retirement to several thousand support personnel in non-enforcement areas, and will of course continue to try and reduce the budget this way. While things may look dire as far as expansion, job security is still a huge bonus here. Also, about Deloitte - I've considered trying to move into the big 4 at some point. There were quite a few ex-big 4 people in my hiring class. When you look at the hours and stress versus the pay, it seems like a less-than-stellar idea although the absolute pay and the pay potential is much higher. For the time being, I'd rather be on the good guys side.
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Dec 2, 2011 03:53
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Cyrezar posted:For the time being, I'd rather be on the good guys side. Wait I thought you worked for the IRS
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Dec 2, 2011 03:55
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We are the good guys. Just like cops and hall monitors! Some people just don't understand that we're from the government, and we're here to help.
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Dec 2, 2011 03:57
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Cyrezar posted:We are the good guys. Just like cops and hall monitors! Actually, quit your job and go to law school. Your inability to tell good from evil is a huge asset. Well not really we are all evil
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Dec 2, 2011 04:00
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Cyrezar posted:IRS dreams Whatever you do, don't do this.
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Dec 2, 2011 04:02
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Cyrezar posted:Alright, I want some feedback from the tax guys in this thread. Counsel only goes to GS-15 for management, senior counsel, or special trial attorney positions. There aren't that many of those out there. So don't assume you'd ever get above 14. I also think the advice that where you went to law school doesn't matter depending on who the actual Chief Counsel is is naive at best. It smacks of "it used to be this way and it might go back to being that way." It's probably not going to. Everyone who's hiring lawyers can afford to be far more choosey about who they hire these days, and Counsel is no exception. When you say "Outside hires are going to be few and far between," I'm not sure if you mean that this gives you a leg up or not. If you do, I think you might not be right. Counsel has its own staffing levels it's supposed to adhere to independent of the larger IRS. Right now, my understanding is we're above them. And given that people are scared to retire right now, we don't have a lot of attrition either. It's not exactly uncommon for revenue agents, revenue officers, and paralegals in Counsel to go to law school and hope to get hired as attorneys. I can think of two who successfully pulled that off. Both did it a long time ago, when the rules of the game were different. The one I know who did it far more recently has pretty bleak prospects. I will also add that on a personal level I don't think Counsel should be hiring former client-side employees as attorneys (though nobody's asking me). A lot of the time our job is to tell the client a) no, b) you're doing (or did) your job wrong, or c) read the loving manual. I find the attorneys I know who used to work for the client seem awfully chummy with the client and I think it makes it harder to do that. e: Thank you for posting that case, 10-8. I thought about doing it and thought better of it.
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Dec 2, 2011 04:04
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That's straight from the mouth of someone who literally interviews and hires lawyers for Counsel, by the way. She said that the previous Chief of Counsel would only hire Ivy League, whereas now there are several working there from what you would call TTT. As you said, this could change depending the preference of the next Chief. But I agree, maybe Appeals would be the better route since I'd get to write up interesting tax law issues, get to GS-14, and not have to spend any more money. When referring to outside hires, I means positions posted for external hires as opposed to internal hires. Internal hires generally get preference. There are a large number of job openings open internally that are never available for external hires. Also that case is hilarious. Asking your manager not to give you hard cases is a sure fire way to a promotion. There are a lot of government employees working for the government. MaximumBob and 10-8, are you both in Counsel?
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Dec 2, 2011 04:18
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Cyrezar posted:That's straight from the mouth of someone who literally interviews and hires lawyers for Counsel, by the way. She said that the previous Chief of Counsel would only hire Ivy League, whereas now there are several working there from what you would call TTT. As you said, this could change depending the preference of the next Chief. I'm sure the AAC you're talking about knows what she's talking about, but my perception is that, on average, the people who have been hired in the last few years have far better "paper" credentials than the people who were hired more than, say, five years ago. 10-8 may have a different perception. Are there a lot of entry-level attorney positions posted for internal hires? There could be - I don't peruse the openings very closely. But again, just speaking from my experience, every attorney I can think of us hiring in the last couple of years has been an external hire, either through the honors program or hiring someone with experience in the private sector. MaximumBob fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Dec 2, 2011 |
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Dec 2, 2011 04:43
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Openings pop up occasionally but they are hardly plentiful. I'd say at least two of the attorneys in my POD have close to 200K spent on their education between Ivy League JD and tax LLMs. Plus I know at least one of them had a clerkship. Few things worth doing are easy. If I end up staying with the Service then I completely agree that there is little point to spending the cash and time on additional schooling. Hell, the IRS isn't going to pay me anything extra at this point for being a CPA but I still want to get licensed since I've already put in the work. As I mentioned in my first post though, I do feel to act at the highest level in the tax world a JD is preferred. I hope I'm wrong on that.
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Dec 2, 2011 05:02
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Cyrezar posted:That's straight from the mouth of someone who literally interviews and hires lawyers for Counsel, by the way. Edit: Also, when they are literally buying people out of their jobs in order to shrink the workforce, that's not the right time to be trying to get your foot in the door. Cyrezar posted:Few things worth doing are easy. Sometimes things aren't easy and aren't worth doing. 10-8 fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Dec 2, 2011 |
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Dec 2, 2011 05:02
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Yes, I understand that much. I didn't just start yesterday. She is still, like you said, going to be interviewing and making suggestions to the hiring committee (who may or may not be comprised of people who she knows). In any case, I'm not talking about nepotism. You seem to be implying that I'm trying to get my foot in the door tomorrow. The absolute earliest would be in five years or so, so I don't put too much credence to the current environment. As for my comment about things being easy or not, don't read into it so much. Obviously that's not why I'm considering any of this. Do you enjoy your job?
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Dec 2, 2011 05:14
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Lots of things worth doing are easy.
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Dec 2, 2011 06:12
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Ok, so there is a prof of internet law on Colbert right now. Note people: This is the only guy who does "internet law" (as opposed to contracts, copyright, etc sometime sinvolving the internet) who has a job.
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Dec 2, 2011 08:43
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Cyrezar posted:Some people just don't understand that we're from the government, and we're here to help. I declined. Also: guy who wants to go to law school but is calling himself stupid. Stop trying to get internet brownie points by spitting this thread's talking points right back at us while talking about your plans. You either want to be a lawyer -- and know full well what lawyers actually do -- or you're making an absolutely horrible decision with your life. If you really and truly, honest to god want to be an attorney, then yeah. Law school is what you gotta do. And it's a lot of risk, a lot of luck, and a lot of debt -- so work hard and make as smart of choices as possible. But the last thing you want to do is gently caress it up all before you even step foot onto a school's ground by lying on your application. Whatever you do in life while wearing your law student or attorney hat, don't ever lie.
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Dec 2, 2011 12:18
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All of the cost of an LL.M. without any actual benefit.quote:Law school isn't just for aspiring lawyers anymore. I cannot think of a more useless one-year graduate program.
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Dec 2, 2011 16:39
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juris master  Emory: the toiletiest of toilets
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Dec 2, 2011 17:13
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George Mason School of Law: proving that not all law & econ people are heartless bastards.quote:Law student Lisa Han plays with "Danny," an adoptable, beagle mix at George Mason University Law School in Arlington. A couple of law schools — including George Mason University and the University of Maryland — bring in puppies to help students relieve the stress of final exams.
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Dec 2, 2011 17:20
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Soothing Vapors posted:juris master  edit: I thought about this a little more and I sort-of think it's a good idea. Let's think about it from a damage minimalization standpoint. This is for people in other fields who think knowing law stuff will help them; at least this is one year and doesn't turn them into lawyers. I don't really know if I find this more egregious than the 234238 TTT master's degrees Columbia offers. entris posted:George Mason School of Law: proving that not all law & econ people are heartless bastards. Omerta fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Dec 2, 2011 |
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Dec 2, 2011 18:35
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figured it out, thanks!
Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Dec 2, 2011 |
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Dec 2, 2011 19:23
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Sulecrist posted:all you tax guys on the page i have two questions As to the first question, student loan interest paid is deductible as long as you don't make over a certain amount of money (~70-80k iirc). If you pay some of your student loans next year with your summer associate money, then you'll be able to deduct any interest paid on those loans. However, once you start working for realsies, then you won't be able to deduct that interest paid (assuming you make $160k). edit: http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch19.html#en_US_2011_publink1000172953 So, basically you can deduct up to $2500 in student loan interest paid, and there's a phaseout from $60-75k, and no deduction at all if you make $75k or above. yadayadayada fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Dec 2, 2011 |
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Dec 2, 2011 19:38
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entris posted:George Mason School of Law: proving that not all law & econ people are heartless bastards. They do this at university of minnesota too. I think it is pretty common.
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Dec 2, 2011 21:35
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As a college freshman, I am curious about your guys' opinion as to whether the job market would have gotten better by the time after I hypothetically enrolled in and graduated from a law school, which is at minimum 8 years from now. I'm taking pre-med courses right now, but lawyering sounds like an equally respectable, and potentially more lucrative field (it's not as of now, I understand).
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Dec 3, 2011 01:34
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