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King of Solomon posted:Yeah, fair point. I guess I didn't take into account that she said exactly what would happen prior to actually using her Seer of Mind powers. The exact line is "I have already seen this consequence in my mind's eye" with the Mind symbol all glowy behind her. I think she already used her powers by then.
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Dec 7, 2011 01:32
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King of Solomon posted:Yeah, fair point. I guess I didn't take into account that she said exactly what would happen prior to actually using her Seer of Mind powers. She actually does use them in the flash. Just having watched it, she goes "We both know you can't defeat Jack, he'll just come and kill all of us. Your sparkly pixie dust trail will lead him right to us!" Then the Mind symbol appears behind her and glows and stuff, and she says, "I have already seen this consequence in my mind's eye." And Vriska is like PFFF WHATEVER, I DO WHAT I WANT. Android Blues fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Dec 7, 2011 |
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Dec 7, 2011 01:33
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Nilbop posted:What do you mean better? Are we having a contest? The point of my reference was that humour being subject isn't always true, and I thought I had a handle on yours but I'm less sure now. Okay, okay, you're right. That was a dumb post. What I was trying to say is that the absurdity makes the whole situation. Look at Nepeta's death. Now, that one is pretty terrible, but in the middle of all that is Gamzee doing that SBaHJ turn animation, which is a silly thing by itself and rather jarring. And Vriska's death (the first one) with DD going "what are you, chicken?" at Tavros the whole time. And... well I guess Vriska's second and real death with that Nic Cage face out of nowhere. They all have an element of absurdity which is pretty funny.  I mean goddamn I like Vriska's character but that is still funny as hell. It's a counterpoint that's present throughout the whole trollpocalypse. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't (I don't think it particularly worked with Nepeta), but drat Equius's own personal fetish death was like the apex of that whole mess, and was done brilliantly.
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Dec 7, 2011 01:45
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Android Blues posted:She actually does use them in the flash. Just having watched it, she goes "We both know you can't defeat Jack, he'll just come and kill all of us. Your sparkly pixie dust trail will lead him right to us!" Then the Mind symbol appears behind her and glows and stuff, and she says, "I have already seen this consequence in my mind's eye." And Vriska is like PFFF WHATEVER, I DO WHAT I WANT. Keep in mind she seems to legitimately think that stopping Jack is the only thing that can save her friends at the time. Combine that with her being extremely stubborn and absolutely no time to actually discuss it, well...that happened.
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Dec 7, 2011 01:50
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King of Solomon posted:Keep in mind she seems to legitimately think that stopping Jack is the only thing that can save her friends at the time. Combine that with her being extremely stubborn and absolutely no time to actually discuss it, well...that happened. Well, there's actually plenty of time to discuss it. Jack isn't doing anything particularly urgent that the trolls know of - the entire limiting factor on time is Vriska, and that's because Vriska doesn't give a poo poo and will fly off in a winking regardless of what Terezi says. Why? Because she's decided that doing this will redeem her and any problems with the plan are immaterial and probably not even true because she needs to get her redemption on, damnit. Even when she's got a more compassionate motive, it's still pretty much All About Vriska. Tavros' death, similarly, is All About Vriska and her personal drama when she's talking to John about it. Keep in mind for context that Vriska is my favourite character. I'm not waging some crusade against her here, although it may look that way with my previous defense of Tavros!
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Dec 7, 2011 02:02
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That's correct, no time because Vriska isn't allowing there to be time. She's stubborn and determined to make it happen.
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Dec 7, 2011 02:07
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I'm not sure folks are recalling that immediately before Tavros' decision to take out Vriska, Vriska taunted him at length about how she manipulated events to kill alterna-Daves, psychic-double-reacharound the other kids, and ensured the creation of Bec Noir, the villain who just ruined everything, ON PURPOSE. At that point, Tavros marked Vriska as an imminent threat and vowed to stop her. I'm really, really not seeing how this was a morally grey decision. He did it pretty stupidly, but he was acting to protect the kids and the trolls from Vriska, and I would say this decision was made in good faith.
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Dec 7, 2011 02:26
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Mr. Pumroy posted:Okay, okay, you're right. That was a dumb post. What I was trying to say is that the absurdity makes the whole situation. Look at Nepeta's death. Now, that one is pretty terrible, but in the middle of all that is Gamzee doing that SBaHJ turn animation, which is a silly thing by itself and rather jarring. And Vriska's death (the first one) with DD going "what are you, chicken?" at Tavros the whole time. And... well I guess Vriska's second and real death with that Nic Cage face out of nowhere. They all have an element of absurdity which is pretty funny. This 100%. I really liked Vriska as a character, but I still laugh my rear end off every time I see that DEAD panel with Nic Cage looking up. It's just so appropriate-yet-not at the same time I can't help it. The only instance of humorous stuff in the Trollpocalypse I DIDN'T think was that funny was Gamzee's jury bench, because at that point it was just overkill. It didn't seem offensive or anything, it just seemed like humor that had been done enough by that point and diminishing returns had begun. Thankfully, it was the last time we got anything like that before some kind of resolution.
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Dec 7, 2011 02:31
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I actually sort of wonder what would happen if Terezi had just lopped off one of Vriska's fairy wings instead. Re: Schadenfreude chat: Death is tragic in almost any form, but it's possible for death to be at the same time humorous, when one injects something funny or absurd into it. Believe it or not, it's possible to laugh at a silly death without being a psychopath. (Same with the mishandling of a corpse, in regards to Tavros.. Entire movie franchises(Weekend at Bernie's) have come from such humor.) Equius was one of my favorite characters, and riding high on the rich and uncertain mood set at the time of the Trollocaust, his death was initially very tense and scary! But when he died with that goofy smile on his face, it was hard not to laugh. While at the same time jumping every time I heard a horn honk. There is some nuance involved here. Factory Factory posted:I'm not sure folks are recalling that immediately before Tavros' decision to take out Vriska, Vriska taunted him at length about how she manipulated events to kill alterna-Daves, psychic-double-reacharound the other kids, and ensured the creation of Bec Noir, the villain who just ruined everything, ON PURPOSE. The problem with this is that Jack was Already There. There wasn't anything Vriska could have done to stop that from being a thing, so she (immaturely) decided that as the one destined to put a stop to the problem, she should also be a part of their villain's origin story. Other than this, and her poorly-played attempts to caliginously woo Tavros earlier, she hadn't actually done a whole lot but help the troll team in their game, and supposedly she would have continued to merely be an ally with a terrible personality. (As such, it did in fact take magical Seer powers to determine that Vriska's awful hare-brained heroism plan actually would create a problem later on, so Tavros gets no points for trying to kill Vriska. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.) Tavros was mostly riled up because of Vriska's villainess monologue, which was mostly blowing smoke, and he acted on it in a less than constructive manner, not a positive development. A more effective show of "Heroism" would have probably involved letting the others know, and deciding what to do as a group. (Failure to Act As A Team pretty much was one of the reasons half the Trolls ended up dead, so it's not just a failing of Tavros alone.)
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Dec 7, 2011 02:39
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We have ideas about what we want people to do, independent of what circumstances actually call on them to do. Vriska lives in a world where she genuinely has to kill. Tavros was doomed because he can't kill. In human civilization, Tavros could function, if he had confidence in himself. Vriska would be Lynndie England, maybe. But a bunch of people want to respect Vriska, because some part of people feels like we should have to kill more often. That's why such a huge proportion of storytelling involves fighting someone to the death. I think the reason people Vriskachat is that it reflects what nerds think they ought to be. Vriska is the person who calls you a fag while playing Halo. She's the person who bought a samurai sword because they think they'll kill a robber some day. Vriska is a person on a zombie apocalypse forum who's somewhere between taking it worryingly seriously and posting a wall of text that uses the phrase "true warrior", only instead of referencing 300 or Fight Club, she's reading an old diary. And Tavros is the 13 year old who plays pokemon in the cafeteria. There's an interesting sort of parallel. When she was bleeding to death, when it was really important, Tavros couldn't kill Vriska. And when everyone's lives depended on it, Vriska couldn't NOT kill Jack. You get to see it, and Vriska pulls this poo poo-eating grin right after every other troll gets killed off, just because she has a fancy suit and a sword. And the narration almost takes her side, weirdly. Scratch brings up whether or not she'd win. Like it matters. Wait, are we arguing about what's funny?
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Dec 7, 2011 02:41
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Android Blues posted:Well, there's actually plenty of time to discuss it. Jack isn't doing anything particularly urgent that the trolls know of - the entire limiting factor on time is Vriska, and that's because Vriska doesn't give a poo poo and will fly off in a winking regardless of what Terezi says. Why? Because she's decided that doing this will redeem her and any problems with the plan are immaterial and probably not even true because she needs to get her redemption on, damnit. Even when she's got a more compassionate motive, it's still pretty much All About Vriska. Tavros' death, similarly, is All About Vriska and her personal drama when she's talking to John about it. But Terezi could potentially have come up with a more practical plan that would have let Vriska confront Jack in a way that didn't immediately put everyone else in grave danger, or distracted her with something else, or come up with any other number of solutions--and could have known in advance whether they would work, making there no risk in deploying one if she found one that would work. The problem was that she was too obsessed with taking Vriska down, so she didn't even bother trying to come up with any other solution and wrecked her own credibility by making herself look like an idiot during the confrontation. Vriska might have been saveable if Terezi had not been blinded by Gamzee's manipulations and her obsession with justice (and also the sun); Vriska's death scene is as much a reflection of Terezi's flaws as it is Vriska's. That's definitely not to say that responsibility for Vriska's death lies at Terezi's feet, though! Terezi's solution was not ideal, but it's a solution to a dilemma that Vriska herself forced; Terezi might have been able to do better, but Vriska could have stepped down from the edge at any time. Her death falls squarely on her own shoulders, or rather, wedged precariously between her inflated head and her shoulders. Midnight Raider posted:Tavros was mostly riled up because of Vriska's villainess monologue, which was mostly blowing smoke, and he acted on it in a less than constructive manner, not a positive development. A more effective show of "Heroism" would have probably involved letting the others know, and deciding what to do as a group. (Failure to Act As A Team pretty much was one of the reasons half the Trolls ended up dead, so it's not just a failing of Tavros alone.) Yeah, this too. Old Tavros's first instinct would be to ask his friends for help, which would have been the right thing to do in both moral and practical terms, not to mention simply Tavros doing right by himself. That's one of the reasons I'm inclined to write his charge off as being more douchemode Tavros.
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Dec 7, 2011 02:42
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Midnight Raider posted:I actually sort of wonder what would happen if Terezi had just lopped off one of Vriska's fairy wings instead. Terezi would have died right there, because flying has nothing do with her fairy wings, and Vriska was far stronger than any of the other trolls. Vriska had the luck and dice that allowed her to actually hurt Jack. Terezi had a cane sword and the powers of someone whose role isn't to fight - and not-yet fully realized powers at that. The only reason Vriska died is because she refused to believe that she could die to Terezi, and let her guard down as she taunted Terezi.
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Dec 7, 2011 03:18
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Midnight Raider posted:The problem with this is that Jack was Already There. There wasn't anything Vriska could have done to stop that from being a thing, so she (immaturely) decided that as the one destined to put a stop to the problem, she should also be a part of their villain's origin story. Other than this, and her poorly-played attempts to caliginously woo Tavros earlier, she hadn't actually done a whole lot but help the troll team in their game, and supposedly she would have continued to merely be an ally with a terrible personality. It's an imperfect justification, though. The explicit reason for Bec Noir being Already There was that Vriska created him - it's simply the nature of determined time in the setting that gave her no "choice" in the matter. The whole affair was comparable to someone looking into the future, seeing that they kill their friends in the future, shrugging and saying "awesome! let me just set that up so that I look super cool whilst killing my friends". While it's true that Vriska couldn't have done anything else without dooming the timeline, the reason the timeline WAS that way in the first place was intimately connected to Vriska's nature. It's similar to saying that, say, Eridan wasn't at fault for killing his friends because flipping out at that point was just his nature and destined to happen. In frank terms, Vriska created Bec Noir because she thought it would be cool to fight him, and the fact that she'd seen that she already did it in the future was just a justification. The reason the time loop was there waiting to be completed in the first place was because its completion was inevitable, based on Vriska's motives and personality. As for Tavros, I don't think it's unreasonable that, when he finds out that the worst person he's ever known has done what all the trolls have been calling "the worst thing you can ever do" for basically no good reason except giggles, he would assume that isn't the end of the line for her bad-thing-do party. After all, she's said that she's on the straight and narrow now before, or that the last bad thing she did was the last bad thing - and here she goes and does this, so how true was it then, and how true is it likely to be now? I agree that his course of action was pretty foolish but you don't need Mind powers to figure out that Vriska is bad news. Going after her on his own may have been a gently caress-up, but it was a courageous and correctly asserted gently caress-up! Gabriel Pope posted:But Terezi could potentially have come up with a more practical plan that would have let Vriska confront Jack in a way that didn't immediately put everyone else in grave danger, or distracted her with something else, or come up with any other number of solutions--and could have known in advance whether they would work, making there no risk in deploying one if she found one that would work. The problem was that she was too obsessed with taking Vriska down, so she didn't even bother trying to come up with any other solution and wrecked her own credibility by making herself look like an idiot during the confrontation. Vriska might have been saveable if Terezi had not been blinded by Gamzee's manipulations and her obsession with justice (and also the sun); Vriska's death scene is as much a reflection of Terezi's flaws as it is Vriska's. I don't really buy it, honestly. What's a better way to convince someone of something than to tell them that you, someone they know can reliably see the future, have seen the terrible consequences of their actions if they go through with what you don't want them to do? Well, you might say, Vriska could suspect Terezi of lying to get her to go along with it. The thing is - Terezi would be overjoyed if Jack got killed and everyone was safe. If she's not telling the truth, she has absolutely no motivation to get Vriska to stop. Vriska was just in a state where she wouldn't have listened to any sort of reason, and she was the most powerful troll on the asteroid, too - force wasn't an option with her (possibly Gamzee could have stopped her, but he wasn't exactly in a helpful mood!). Terezi played it as well as she could possibly have played it. Vriska was too guarded to listen to a sappy emotional appeal, too proud to listen to reason, and too powerful to restrain by overt force - and even if you wanna posit that they could have fitted her wings with a Dustbuster or whatever, she was going to fly off right that minute and wasn't interested in waiting.
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Dec 7, 2011 03:21
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Android Blues posted:I don't really buy it, honestly. What's a better way to convince someone of something than to tell them that you, someone they know can reliably see the future, have seen the terrible consequences of their actions if they go through with what you don't want them to do? Well, you might say, Vriska could suspect Terezi of lying to get her to go along with it. The thing is - Terezi would be overjoyed if Jack got killed and everyone was safe. If she's not telling the truth, she has absolutely no motivation to get Vriska to stop. I think what GP's getting at is that Terezi's arrival and the way she handled the initial part of the conversation was what spurred Vriska into flying off that exact second. During her conversation with John I kind of got the impression she was going to wait at least until he responded before leaving. Then Terezi shows up, wearing her FLARPing costume (which is very emotionally charged for the two of them) and starts going on about justice and the other dead Trolls. And the thing is there that Terezi was wrong, and that would strongly affect Vrika's perception of any advice Terezi gives. From Vrika's perspective, Terezi was wrong about her killing a bunch of Trolls, so why would she be right about the fight with Jack? And by showing in the Redglare outfit, it turns the conversation from two teammates/comrades/friends into two rivals- not a request, but a challenge. HOWEVER, this in no way justifies Vriska or villifies Terezi. Terezi was manipulated by Gamzee and really the only thing stopping Vriska from backing down was her own enourmous ego. Its just two complicated characters with their own flaws and weaknesses in a situation where there's no real hero or villian, and not really any winners, only losers. (As an aside I totally agree with you about the timeloops thing- that sort of reconciling of free will and determinism is what I think the Ultimate Riddle is going to address if/when we finally get to it) Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Dec 7, 2011 |
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Dec 7, 2011 03:36
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vriska's death wasn't just as soon as that clock gets uprighted she'll be back
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Dec 7, 2011 04:27
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Krinkle posted:vriska's death wasn't just as soon as that clock gets uprighted she'll be back too late bro 
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Dec 7, 2011 04:31
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new Tumblr post from Hussie He talks about how the books are almost sold out and about the design choices behind the God-tier hoodies and symbol designs. Ammat The Ankh fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Dec 7, 2011 |
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Dec 7, 2011 05:02
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That clock must also have been responsible for Doc Scratch turning into Lord English! Guys... I think the clock is
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Dec 7, 2011 05:03
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Ammat The Ankh posted:the books are almost sold out Well there goes a bunch of MY money. fakeedit: poo poo, my ancient paypal account had the incorrect email address and I forgot to change it, now I will be kept in utter suspense until my book arrives 
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Dec 7, 2011 05:35
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All of these Lusus antics are just making want an explanation for their presence more and more. Lusus attack anyone besides their kid, right? They're actually attacking Jake, not trying to give him hugs, right?
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Dec 7, 2011 06:03
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QueerPope posted:All of these Lusus antics are just making want an explanation for their presence more and more. Lusus attack anyone besides their kid, right? They're actually attacking Jake, not trying to give him hugs, right? Except Tinkerbull, because he's useless. Edit: Also, fun fact. A few weeks ago my astronomy lab TA said this about the constellation Capricornus: "So in late summer, when you're spotting Capricornus the stars are aligned sideways. To spot the pattern you make a sideways v-shape, kind of like a giant seal standing upwards" 
Pastrymancy fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Dec 7, 2011 |
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Dec 7, 2011 06:04
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Bullets? Jake really needs some AP rockets. ...maybe this is why Grandpa was so decked out with the heavy firepower.
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Dec 7, 2011 06:06
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Ammat The Ankh posted:new Tumblr post from Hussie Look, Hussie, this poo poo is all well and good, but I'm still no closer to knowing how long it'll be until I get my loving Piss and Lips hoodies. Enquiring minds must know!
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Dec 7, 2011 06:16
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Mazerunner posted:too late bro
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Dec 7, 2011 06:47
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Krinkle posted:that's not the same clock I don't think, that's scratch's personal clock. it tips over and he stops being a guy at all I'm so sorry for your loss 
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Dec 7, 2011 06:54
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Man if Goatdad's kind can hang out on land like that, just what was he doing out at sea all the time not taking of his troll kid?
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Dec 7, 2011 07:50
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standard owl posted:Man if Goatdad's kind can hang out on land like that, just what was he doing out at sea all the time not taking of his troll kid? There's no getting around it, he was a deadbeat goatdad.
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Dec 7, 2011 07:51
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And now Jake is being torn apart. I can't watch. It's just too horrifying.
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Dec 7, 2011 08:18
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This is more horrifying than the entirety of Horrorstuck.
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Dec 7, 2011 08:20
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Regy Rusty posted:And now Jake is being torn apart. R.I.P. Jake. There's no way out of this one. You were too good for this world. 
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Dec 7, 2011 08:21
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There are now two Dead Jakes. It seems the only thing heroes of hope are good for is dying.
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Dec 7, 2011 08:24
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Dec 7, 2011 08:25
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Where... is the horn on the bull in the lower left?
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Dec 7, 2011 08:40
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Ape Has Killed Ape posted:Oh sure they look harmless, and when they're alone they generally are. But a swarm of them can strip a man to the bone in less than a minute. And look adorable doing it. Called it. 
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Dec 7, 2011 08:58
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It's time for Kidpocalypse 2011, people. Get ready.
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Dec 7, 2011 09:02
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HappyKitty posted:Where... is the horn on the bull in the lower left? Lodged inside of one of Jake's lungs, by the looks of it.
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Dec 7, 2011 09:07
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I have never been so scared in my entire life.
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Dec 7, 2011 09:10
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Did somebody suggest the goat-monster was going to get distracted devouring Tinkerbulls and Jake would abscond while it's distracted? Because that seems pretty likely right now.
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Dec 7, 2011 09:18
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Mazerunner posted:I'm so sorry for your loss jesus look at it two completely different clocks in that link you just showed one is purple and has a prospit/derse bisection, the other is green oh wait it's purple because it got knocked off it's poo poo during a just death. Well I still believe she got screwed on her judgement, spades basically tilted the pinball machine of her life. Why would it zoom in on her judgment being neither just nor heroic right before he crowbarred it, otherwise? I hate vriska I like thinking she was about to get another life and got dicked out of it by slick. don't take this from me. Krinkle fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Dec 7, 2011 |
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Dec 7, 2011 09:26
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Slime posted:I have one thing to say that disproves this theory. After this latest update, I have only one thing to say to you: I warned you about steers, bro. I told you dog.
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Dec 7, 2011 09:29
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