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Considering the sentiment held by many towards X-Factor I think most people would see what the game would be like without it for a dollar. If the game improves from it I could see your hypothetical situation actually catching on.
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Dec 7, 2011 11:49
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PunkBoy posted:Oh crap, that is him! If you saw the Frank/Dante/Vergil team, that was me and my horrible playing. Yeah, if you click on the videos tab below the video description it should be there eventually, might take a day or so though.
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Dec 7, 2011 12:02
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ThePhenomenalBaby posted:Considering the sentiment held by many towards X-Factor I think most people would see what the game would be like without it for a dollar. If the game improves from it I could see your hypothetical situation actually catching on. I'd like to see a single free X-factor cancel in a match with no on-going damage or speed increase following it. Same tactical applications but less of the derp from a level 3 comeback. Maybe allow the Xfactor to reset damage and hit-stun scaling perhaps? maybe only on higher levels. It'd allow for some nice flashy combos during high-level matches and a good chance to shift momentum back but if there is no ongoing damage and speed the best you'll manage is to kill the character/s currently in the combo. The viewtiful joe vid springs to mind, but stuff like that is a pretty uncommon occurence. duffath fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Dec 7, 2011 |
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Dec 7, 2011 12:25
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duffath posted:I'd like to see a single free X-factor cancel in a match with no on-going damage or speed increase following it. Same tactical applications but less of the derp from a level 3 comeback. I think that the damage buff should always be the same no matter what level of X-Factor it is, and only the duration should go up depending on the number of characters left. What kills me with X-factor is when the guy with XF3 kills the other guys first character, 50/50 mixups the incoming character into a 100% combo that takes about 3 seconds, and gets a second 50/50 mixup to win it--and even if he misses he still has plenty of time where a single hit will end it. That's not a comeback, it's a coinflip.
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Dec 7, 2011 12:31
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Ocatamai posted:Making two players play a "does he have his glasses on I can't tell" minigame would be stupid as hell. Jesus christ you guys talk about Wesker as if he's Petshop. He's seriously not that bad. The "pick him or lose!" sentiment is a load of bullshit.
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Dec 7, 2011 12:39
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PunkBoy posted:Oh crap, that is him! If you saw the Frank/Dante/Vergil team, that was me and my horrible playing. Found ya! 8 minute mark in this archive clip. Looked like a solid Frank performance to me.
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Dec 7, 2011 12:59
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Niddhogg posted:Jesus christ you guys talk about Wesker as if he's Petshop. He's seriously not that bad. The "pick him or lose!" sentiment is a load of bullshit. I am not a good player, but he makes my team a lot better than I should be. Maybe im some kind of Wesker prodigy.
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Dec 7, 2011 15:34
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Ocatamai posted:I am not a good player, but he makes my team a lot better than I should be.
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Dec 7, 2011 16:30
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Lothire posted:Found ya! 8 minute mark in this archive clip. Looked like a solid Frank performance to me. Just watched this and noticed that floe and phoenix wright have the same voice.
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Dec 7, 2011 17:44
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Niddhog, why do you think Deadpool has potential? I think Deadpool is rear end. Cons:
I feel like it's not Deadpool's fault that he's bad, it's just the game he's in. He has to do a ton of work to keep rushdown out and as soon as he's hit or someone gets in close he's hosed. Everyone who plays Nova should watch Richard Nguyen at the UCI Ranbats. http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/06/uci-ranbats-3-6-umvc3-tournament-archive-120311/. He puts together some solid Nova pressure in the beginning of the second vid. Dren fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Dec 7, 2011 |
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Dec 7, 2011 17:48
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Lothire posted:Found ya! 8 minute mark in this archive clip. Looked like a solid Frank performance to me. Thanks! Surprised I did so well at 5 AM. I really need to super jump less.
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Dec 7, 2011 18:02
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PunkBoy posted:Thanks! Surprised I did so well at 5 AM. I really need to super jump less. How much fun is Frank West?? He looks like a blast to play and I love his Mega Man alterate 
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Dec 7, 2011 18:56
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Seymour Butts posted:How much fun is Frank West?? He looks like a blast to play and I love his Mega Man alterate He's a lot of fun, but needs a good setup to gain levels fast. My THC with Dante is a nice easy one that gets me up to level 4 and change, but there's a lot of other ones out there. Trying to get that initial setup is tough, but once you're leveled up, he becomes a beast. He doesn't have that much maneuverability, but his roll from level 2 and up can lead to some good mixups when used with an assist. Also, his shopping cart assist is awesome and because of that, he's become a staple on my teams.
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Dec 7, 2011 19:04
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Make x-factor negate chip and recover red life and nothing else. There, I fixed it 
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Dec 7, 2011 20:53
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Dren posted:He's a zoning character I'm not Nidd but I'd like to comment here. I personally don't think any characters in this game fit squarely into the "always be zoning" ideal (just as even the most rushdown-oriented characters have zoning elements built-in). And in general those that are the closest to fulfilling that ideal tend to be among the worse choices in the game (Arthur, Hsien-Ko). To me Deadpool playing a pure zoning gameplan won't work for a lot of reasons, some of which you listed (lots of things beat guns, teleporting away isn't reliable), but he does what many other characters game do well, which is control space well enough to wait for rushdown opportunities. His teleport is good enough for that, at least. His chainable cr.l and decent overhead also suggest he wants to get in and Do Stuff. quote:with mediocre combo damage who needs a strong assist in order for his zoning game to work. This describes a lot of characters in the game to me, especially without the "zoning" descriptor. IMO these kinds of characters tend to make good point characters, where their strengths with assist usage can be fully exploited and if nothing else they can act as meter builders/x-factor level fodder for the stronger characters waiting in the wings. My current "main" team I'm working on is Chris/Spencer/Strider - so far it seems very strong (even if I'm not as a player yet) but I'm sure I could replace Chris with Deadpool or Rocket Raccoon and be good at many of the same things and even better at others. I just happen to like Chris a lot  Anyway that's how I see Deadpool, not sure if Nidd sees more in him than I do!
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Dec 7, 2011 20:54
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PunkBoy posted:He's a lot of fun, but needs a good setup to gain levels fast. My THC with Dante is a nice easy one that gets me up to level 4 and change, but there's a lot of other ones out there. Trying to get that initial setup is tough, but once you're leveled up, he becomes a beast. He doesn't have that much maneuverability, but his roll from level 2 and up can lead to some good mixups when used with an assist. Also, his shopping cart assist is awesome and because of that, he's become a staple on my teams. I. Love. Frank. West. My group of players might be megascrubby (including me) but so long as I have a screen-wide assist (I use Strange Bolts) I can at LEAST close distance which gives me a chance to slide in or some drat thing. If you're willing to have a character for the express purpose of keeping your opponent in the air after a camera OTG you can get him up to level 3 or 4 in one combo, then switch him out to use his shopping cart assist. I was using Chun-Li legs but I am not a gourmet and she is finely aged Camembert to Deadpool Trigger Happy H's wadded up Kraft presliced cheese product. Also, Doom rocks work so Cinroth's statement still stands but he is at least those tiny wheels of gouda in that red wax poo poo and I don't have the time edit: Just watched the match, and if you do Knee Drop instead of his launcher at midscreen you can call Dante in and use Snapshot to keep the combo going and get that extra bit of exp in the beginning. Also, if you gently caress it up later, you at least have his dodge roll. Hawaiian Shirt fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Dec 7, 2011 |
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Dec 7, 2011 21:45
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Are people talking about how they want x-factor nerfed again? Alright, I think it would be fine if 1. level 2 and 3 x-factor were removed and 2. you couldn't gain meter while x-factored. Also maybe take out the change to scaling while x-factored if it's still enough to give everyone 1 meter 100% combos.
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Dec 7, 2011 21:59
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Dren posted:Deadpool is rear end Deadpool is not rear end. I got to second lord in vanilla with him on my team! His crouching light looks and feels just like Wesker's. You can cancel c.H into guns, ninja gifts, the grenade, or bolo, making it VERY safe. I always cancel into the grenade. His overhead is no faster than Spencers, and you know how often people fall for his. Guns are not unsafe when fired from superjump height. If I superjump, I always do light guns on the way down. If it connects, I can combo off of it. There is a considerably amount of hitstun on guns. Try him out some more and figure out some things. Deadpool is great!
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Dec 7, 2011 22:00
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Um Jammer 6096 posted:Deadpool is not rear end. I got to second lord in vanilla with him on my team! What assists do you use with him? Are you hitconfirming raw c.H into S and canceling into grenade on block? I tried that and I had some success with it but if my cancel was a little late I'd get punished before the nade came out. What do you do when you get to fullscreen distance away from someone? I have a tendency to fire happy happy trigger after landing from doing jump back guns which is a terrible waste of meter. I have a hard time being effective with him at fullscreen distance and yet I always end up there. When I'm at fullscreen I usually try to leave a few grenades on the ground so that I can force a superjump or give myself cover to wavedash closer but when those get eaten up by opposing zoning I have problems. I went back to Wolverine the other day and it's just so much easier. With Wolverine I can just bully people and dash under drill claw on incoming is so dirty.
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Dec 7, 2011 22:36
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I’ve been trying to do Wesker’s mission 9 and I just can’t get the super to land after the OTG. I land, call the assist, then dash and OTG, but when I super after the gunshot they are too high for it to hit. I can use the gunshot without dashing first but then I’m too far away for it to hit. Anyone who’s done it have any tips?
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Dec 7, 2011 22:49
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You need to cancel the dash into gunshot really early so that the assist hits long enough to hold them in place.
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Dec 7, 2011 23:17
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Eeevil posted:Are people talking about how they want x-factor nerfed again? Alright, I think it would be fine if To me the logical and easy thing has always been "either the effects or the timer should scale up with character loss, rather than both", but I'm also an idiot so ymmv
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Dec 7, 2011 23:23
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I'm not at all opposed to having a comeback mechanic in this sort of game. I even think it's a good idea. But I'm not sure xfactor, or the way xfactor works, is the right way to go. Honestly, a burst style mechanic, usable once per round, but that becomes more effective the fewer characters you've got left might have been a better way to go. Something like this. No characters lost: breaks a combo or cancels guard stun, hard to impossible to bait and punish. One character lost: breaks a combo or cancels guard stun, can combo after breaker combo is 50% hit stun and damage scaled, fairly baitable and punishable. Two characters lost: breaks a combo or cancels guard stun, can combo after breaker, combo isn't scaled, fairly baitable and punishable. Can turn the match around for a careful or skilled player, but only to a certain extent, can be punished in it's more powerful (and thus better for a come back) versions, doesn't rely on the games basic meter system, doesn't alter the effectiveness of chip damage (via damage increase or prevention), and won't turn the match into a game of run away for 15-20 seconds. And hey, if this was in place Dark Phoenix probably wouldn't have even needed to be nerfed in the first place.
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Dec 7, 2011 23:40
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It's really hard to talk about what an appropriate nerf for X-factor would be or if a nerf is even appropriate. Here's why. For many aspects of the game we don't have any quantifiable measure of how "good" those things are. Even with frame data it's hard. You probably know what a good jab speed is. Do you know what a good speed is for a mid distance attack? A fullscreen attack? What distance, exactly, are mid and fullscreen? I've seen people try to quantify distance in danger room floor squares but that is a fairly crude measure. Basic things about the game system are very hard to quantify. To talk about whether a character is good, much less if x-factor is good or too good, is really really hard. We have some measurables with xfactor, speed/damage increases and affect on damage scaling but what we don't have, what matters, is hard information on how xfactor changes the way characters play. E.g. One of the things that makes XF3 Wesker so scary is that he's so fast he can rush you down and teleport behind you when you're almost fullscreen. Without xfactor he can't mix you up very easily at that distance so you can backdash and up+back and get away from him. Now how do we quantify stuff like that in order to talk about the strength of xfactor? I imagine (rather, I hope) that Capcom has a much better handle on quantifying this sort of thing. I think it might be possible to create a heat map for every attack by every character. The heat map would be green for places an attack can reach in 5 frames or less, yellow for 10 frames or less, etc. Ideally it would also be able to factor in movement. i.e. time to wavedash across the screen and c.L someone or time to teleport over someone and j.H them. It would also make sense to view that heat map in the different xfactor strengths. Such a map would show a great deal about a character's ability to punish/attack. I had the idea for a sort of heat map when I heard that Viscant likes to divide the screen into quadrants and think about what quadrants different characters are good at controlling. He says Wesker is bad at dealing with the up+back quadrant.
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Dec 8, 2011 00:11
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The way to fix x factor is to remove the damage and speed boosts from all levels of it and keep it otherwise the same as it is now. Having it as a one use guard cancel or combo extension is fine, and keeping in the chip negation and health regen maintains its feel as an x factor and keeps it as a comeback mechanic, but one which only helps a little to create the possibility of a comeback. You'd still have to put in the work. As for Wesker, just nerf his gunshot assist somehow. I don't know what would be the best way to hit it, but just having a worse assist would at least make him less omnipresent. PS Capcom, buff Hsien Ko.
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Dec 8, 2011 00:18
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Dren posted:What assists do you use with him? I use Shuma-Gorath's Mystic Ray assist with my team. (it's amazing) I never do a raw c.H. Ever. If it's time to use some melee attacks, I dash and go c.L, c.M, c.H. If it connects, I go into S, then a combo. If it's blocked, immediately mash down forward M for the grenade after c.H is blocked. You gotta be able to recognize if c.L, c.M, c.H is being blocked, or if it's connecting, and react quickly and accordingly with S, or grenade. Fullscreen is my absolute favorite place to be. All I do is jump back, M guns with Shuma's laser assist as fast as possible. Over, and over, and over. I almost never use grenades. If they try to super jump, you have a choice. You can either super jump as well and use M guns, or you can stay on the ground and use H guns. When they get too close, teleport away. If you're on your 3rd teleport, and they're jumping in on you in the corner, just super jump away! It really is that easy. I get hatemail all the time for spamming guns, but whatever. It's zoning!
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Dec 8, 2011 00:18
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Dren posted:It's really hard to talk about what an appropriate nerf for X-factor would be or if a nerf is even appropriate. Not really. X-Factor would be just fine if it simply didn't last so long. All of the current X-Factor times would be just fine if they were cut in half. No more being able to kill 2 characters with X-Factor Level 1, or losing 2 characters to XF3 and then having to run away for 10 seconds.
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Dec 8, 2011 00:21
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NecroMonster posted:One character lost: breaks a combo or cancels guard stun, can combo after breaker combo is 50% hit stun and damage scaled, fairly baitable and punishable. Not gonna lie, I don't think this is a good idea. It reminds me way too much of Tatsunoko where you could punish someone for hitting you as long as you had 2 meters.
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Dec 8, 2011 00:22
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Um Jammer 6096 posted:I use Shuma-Gorath's Mystic Ray assist with my team. (it's amazing) If you're out of teleport and you need to get across the screen to get away from an incoming superjump Quick Work H works too.
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Dec 8, 2011 00:27
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chumbler posted:The way to fix x factor is to remove the damage and speed boosts from all levels of it and keep it otherwise the same as it is now. Having it as a one use guard cancel or combo extension is fine, and keeping in the chip negation and health regen maintains its feel as an x factor and keeps it as a comeback mechanic, but one which only helps a little to create the possibility of a comeback. You'd still have to put in the work. Yea, that's how I feel. It should basically be defensive in nature and let you wait for a moment to come back rather than create a billion opportunities to do so.
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Dec 8, 2011 00:32
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PalmTreeFun posted:Not gonna lie, I don't think this is a good idea. It reminds me way too much of Tatsunoko where you could punish someone for hitting you as long as you had 2 meters. Problem with Tatsunoko was you could burst for 2 meter and do a combo that built 2+ meter off of it...
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Dec 8, 2011 00:35
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Dren posted:I used to use Shuma and that assist is godlike. I don't like Shuma very much though. I tried to use H Quick Work for a bit to get out of the corner, but it recovers to slow for me. I forgot I recorded matches of my Deadpool bullshit. Yes, it's from vanilla, but the strategy can work exactly the same in Ultimate. I don't use Deadpool anymore though. Why buy Ultimate if you're just gonna do the same thing you did in Vanilla? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a19yEunwnxo&feature=channel_video_title#t=00m50s
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Dec 8, 2011 00:38
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ShinsoBEAM! posted:Problem with Tatsunoko was you could burst for 2 meter and do a combo that built 2+ meter off of it... If you want to get right down to it, the problem was that bursts shared resources with another system in the game, such that bursts weren't finite in any sense of the word. That's bad. It's so not a good idea that I really wonder why the gently caress they'd think it was. Anyway, I think a burst system would solve a couple of the problems the game currently has, but a strait defensive one burst per match system wouldn't likely be a strong enough comeback mechanic in these games. At the same time any burst system would likely introduce game balance changes of it's own, like strengthening keep-away (is that really a problem tho?).
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Dec 8, 2011 01:04
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Make X-Factor cost 3 bars. There, I fixed your drat game. I'll be expecting my check in the mail 
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Dec 8, 2011 01:19
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NecroMonster posted:If you want to get right down to it, the problem was that bursts shared resources with another system in the game, such that bursts weren't finite in any sense of the word. I'm not getting into TvC, but I do disagree with that part of the statement. Combo-breakers can be excellent game mechanics if done properly and not as an afterthought. My case in point is the Naruto fighting game series for the gamecube (there's like 3 different series depending on system,etc). In it the combo-breaker system was really built into the gameplay where anyone can break out of a combo with 3/4 of a full meter, which meant it happened all the time. The real mix-up in that game didn't come from high-low openings, which the game didn't have-- it was fairly low execution, but from predicting combo-breaks and committing to either short combos that left you safe, or long combos that were risky, and on the other end either breaking out or saving the meter for a super (at least one of which, instantly killed anyone in the game) Anyway, my point being that it's absolutely possible to build a game with "infinite" combo-breakers, but it really has to be a corner-stone of the game and not something thrown in half-assed. X-factor is really pushing the edge in terms of half-baked ideas.
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Dec 8, 2011 01:26
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I like the way Barrier Burst worked in Blazblue (combo breaker that you only got 2 of max, one of which you got if you lost a round), it was almost purely defensive as you couldn't really combo off of it. If you wanted to combo off of it you could certainly try, but if it whiffed or was blocked well there goes your saving grace. No one seems to talk about Blazblue though 
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Dec 8, 2011 02:30
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Thundercracker posted:The real mix-up in that game didn't come from high-low openings, which the game didn't have-- it was fairly low execution, but from predicting combo-breaks and committing to either short combos that left you safe, or long combos that were risky, and on the other end either breaking out or saving the meter for a super :sirlin: :but being serious: I have to assume that you could sit down with a excel spreadsheet and figure out the optimal choice for both situations. If there is a wrong answer and a right answer then there's no mixup.
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Dec 8, 2011 02:40
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Deadpool has a lot of options but they aren't safe to spam, which puts the importance on the meta-game/mind game aspect. Knowing Captain America can't reach full screen with a shield or teleport opens up those guns totally, but Doom Beam tends to beat out most of my guns, things of that nature. I like to think someone with great experience could go real far with him, but I honestly don't know if it's worth it. Let's say you had great predictions and could make reads like nobody's business - would you really want to spend all that time on Deadpool to use that talent with, or someone like Wesker, who is capable of doing that level of damage and then some without even needing that level of awareness? I love the guy to death, but the credentials for top tier as of right now stems greatly from being able to do your own thing without much regard to what your opponent is doing or trying to do. Getting in your opponents face and breaking their guard is easier than being defensive and trying to mount a response. Wade Wilson trades off such tactics in exchange for being able to do something no matter where he is on screen, while still doing considerable damage. I think my best BnB is about what Wolverines basic BnB is in terms of damage (well, close at least). It's just harder to get it started. Um Jammer 6096 posted:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a19yEunwnxo&feature=channel_video_title#t=00m50s I've never committed to a Deadpool zoning team before, so this is cool to see. I would have trouble doing that without Shuma against Thor, as his Mighty Spark if timed right, should come out faster than a bullet would reach coming down from a jump. But this is why I like his gameplay. You can do this kind of thing and do well with the right team. I like to think you could set up a rush down kind of team that would make his long recovery times a bit safer.
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Dec 8, 2011 03:05
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Hopefully Heroes and Heralds will have some fancy pants X Factor change that we can all use to see how the game would be without the massive boost you get from pressing four buttons.
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Dec 8, 2011 03:05
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Waverhouse posted:I like the way Barrier Burst worked in Blazblue (combo breaker that you only got 2 of max, one of which you got if you lost a round), it was almost purely defensive as you couldn't really combo off of it. If you wanted to combo off of it you could certainly try, but if it whiffed or was blocked well there goes your saving grace Assuming you are talking about green/gold bursts, gold bursts (burst while not in hitstun/blockstun) are +frame on block and lets you combo if they hit, so it's not purely defensive.
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Dec 8, 2011 03:09
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