The Toyobaru thread: We got the car we asked for, and WE'RE ALL ANGRY ABOUT IT

bull3964 · # ? Dec 8, 2011 17:47

Ouhei posted:

Won't the Scion have traditional A/C controls (off, 1, 2, 3, 4)? So all the people that are morally opposed to the more complicated system could just get it over the Subaru?

The fun part is, it will probably be literally the same system with just different switchgear that doesn't show the auto settings and the subtraction of one or two sensors from the cabin.

Added "luxury crap" is added because it's basically a no cost add anymore.

For example, cruise control. If throttle is already drive by wire, adding a few subroutines in to maintain a certain speed and a few switches to control it is trivial and costs virtually nothing more than the raw material of the switchgear plastic.

Same with the climate control. Fan speed and blend doors will already be computer controlled because it's a cheaper and more reliable system than vacuum actuators and physical linkages between the controls and the rest of the system. So, you just add in a few temp sensors and add the control logic to the computer to maintain temp and you have auto climate control. 98% of the work is already done for manual control, you just have to add the extra inputs and logic.

The same with navigation. The most expensive component for that will be the LCD touch screen and and the licensing of maps. I wouldn't be surprised if GPS is integrated on the SoC of a lot of factory radios nowadays, whether or not they actually have a navigation system. So, it's cheaper for them to use a single component when they build the cars and just give navigation to all.

People are operating under a faulty premise that not including these items would lower the price of the car when you are probably looking at MAYBE a $200 cost to include the stuff.

In all reality, they probably have to add stuff like this in to justify the higher price that the engineering behind the car dictates. If Subaru determines that they need to charge around ~$25k to make a profit on this project, increasing the cost by a few hundred dollars and adding features that people expect at that price point makes the car more marketable.

bull3964 fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Dec 8, 2011

Adbot · # ? Jun 2, 2024 08:14

Isizzlehorn · # ? Dec 8, 2011 17:48

Splizwarf posted:

Again, I agree in principle, but this is a terrible example. Nav is one of the few things I would flat out turn down a car over, that poo poo always ends up looking terrible in less than a year, with paid updates and general shittiness compared to something like Google Maps. Considering the price navigation adds, I'd rather just have a dedicated slot for an iPad, and an iPad. Would take up the same amount of room, cost probably half as much (I know, an iPad isn't $1500, but there's still going to be electronics and plastic to build to handle it) and when I wanted to replace it I could swap in a new model. If they included a few sliding brackets and a mini-USB connection, most phones would also fit and work. That'd be loving great!

There's been interior shots of a GT 86 model that, where the nav screen fits, they put three gauges measuring something or other, and a bracket with which to hold a cell phone. They literally had an iPhone in the slot, exactly the kind of setup you'd want instead of a PoS Nav. This will be available for the Scion, guaranteed.

Ouhei posted:

This car is terribly tempting to me but I can't get fully on board buying one. I'm in the US and there's no way I'm buying a Scion, so Subaru it is for me.

If you feel that strongly about badge identity, spend $50 and get replacement GT 86 badges and make the Scion a Toyota. Otherwise, that's a completely irrational and juvenile decision process.

Splizwarf · # ? Dec 8, 2011 17:58

drat do I ever hope I can fit in this car. :ohdear:

tbb9 · tbb9 Sep 6, 2011

Ouhei posted:

Won't the Scion have traditional A/C controls (off, 1, 2, 3, 4)? So all the people that are morally opposed to the more complicated system could just get it over the Subaru? Assuming they're in the US anyways, pretty sure the Toyota will have the same A/C controls as the BRZ.

this. couldn't everyone complaining about how the lowest spec brz has too much stuff just go ahead and buy the 86.

...or is the scion brand that repulsive

Rabble · # ? Dec 8, 2011 19:00

Well you see the coefficient of drag over the Toyota badge...
:goonsay:

OXBALLS DOT COM · # ? Dec 8, 2011 19:06

It's insane that people are actually arguing over automatic HVAC on a car where navigation is standard.

The touchscreen and nav stuff is an actual non-trivial cost that you can be mad about, especially since OEM nav is often ugly, slow, and gets out of date super quickly compared to comparable stand-alone units. What the hell?

Doesn't Subaru OEM nav not even let you actually use it unless the car is in park or something retarded like that?

Splizwarf · # ? Dec 8, 2011 19:46

Cream_Filling posted:

It's insane that people are actually arguing over automatic HVAC on a car where navigation is standard.

I think that the meat of the HVAC argument had nothing to do with a specific car; it was more about basic design principles and the pros and cons of hi-tech vs. simple. The argument just happened to break out in this thread because conditions were ripe. Probably could have happened in most of AI.

tbb9 posted:

...or is the scion brand that repulsive

It absolutely is. Scion is the garbage marque in the US, the opposite of Lexus, and marketed accordingly. Hopefully a debadge will take care of it, but I would right off the bat assume that everything about it was shittier than a Subaru in every way even though I understand intellectually that 90%+ of the vehicle is identical. Thanks, popular media. I would be more comfortable buying a Kia, at least they seem to be trying to say "Hey we probably make a good reliable car by now". v :shobon:

v

tbb9 · tbb9 Sep 6, 2011

Splizwarf posted:

It absolutely is. Scion is the garbage marque in the US, the opposite of Lexus, and marketed accordingly. Hopefully a debadge will take care of it, but I would right off the bat assume that everything about it was shittier than a Subaru in every way even though I understand intellectually that 90%+ of the vehicle is identical. Thanks, popular media. I would be more comfortable buying a Kia, at least they seem to be trying to say "Hey we probably make a good reliable car by now". vv

alright well I'm gonna save $3000 and buy a $8 spirt of ecstasy from the truck stop for the front of mine

InitialDave · # ? Dec 8, 2011 20:05

Sometimes it works the other way. All things being equal, I'd probably rather have a Skoda than an Audi badge on an otherwise identical car.

VVVV: That is exactly the reasoning behind it.

InitialDave fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Dec 8, 2011

cakesmith handyman · # ? Dec 8, 2011 20:11

Well buying the skoda won't cause you to drive like a total douchecanoe, and it's cheaper!

Ouhei · # ? Dec 8, 2011 20:16

Isizzlehorn posted:

There's been interior shots of a GT 86 model that, where the nav screen fits, they put three gauges measuring something or other, and a bracket with which to hold a cell phone. They literally had an iPhone in the slot, exactly the kind of setup you'd want instead of a PoS Nav. This will be available for the Scion, guaranteed.

If you feel that strongly about badge identity, spend $50 and get replacement GT 86 badges and make the Scion a Toyota. Otherwise, that's a completely irrational and juvenile decision process.

And stare at the scion badge on my steering wheel airbag every time I get in the car? No thanks.

Is it juvenile? Maybe but I don't like the Scion brand at all. I dislike the way they market their vehicles and don't really want to directly support the brand. From launch pictures I don't like some of the changes they made in the car either.

Internet Explorer · # ? Dec 8, 2011 20:23

Ouhei posted:

And stare at the scion badge on my steering wheel airbag every time I get in the car? No thanks.

Is it juvenile? Maybe but I don't like the Scion brand at all. I dislike the way they market their vehicles and don't really want to directly support the brand. From launch pictures I don't like some of the changes they made in the car either.

That's a pretty amazing point of view. I don't hang out in AI, but I was checking this thread because I love my 07 tC. Sure, I'm not a car nut and when I bought it, really not all that interested in cars and "driving." Since I got my car though, wow, what an amazingly fun thing to drive. I have a hard time driving anything else.

So yes, the commercials are stupid and the marketing is stupid, and yes, maybe the tC is a car for Jersey ricer fags. But you know what? I'm glad I didn't know that at the time. It's a fantastic car for the price, and the new Toyotoa/Scion/Subaru seems to be a big improvement. If you're in a huff because of the brand, that's a shame and you're missing out. But at least you can buy the Subaru.

Mr. Wiggles · # ? Dec 8, 2011 20:25

Ouhei posted:

And stare at the scion badge on my steering wheel airbag every time I get in the car? No thanks.

Is it juvenile? Maybe but I don't like the Scion brand at all. I dislike the way they market their vehicles and don't really want to directly support the brand. From launch pictures I don't like some of the changes they made in the car either.

You're very silly. Who cares about marketing? They sell the Toyotas I want to buy, and I still miss mine.

shodanjr_gr · # ? Dec 8, 2011 20:26

Honestly the scion exterior tickles me better than the BRZ and the interior looks equally cheap on both based on press shots (hugeass navi-unit on the BRZ, 90s stereo unit on the FRS and jesus gently caress is that an LCD clock with discrete hour/minute buttons?)

PS: Has there been any word on whether this will ship with some sort of LSD in the back?

Hugh G. Rectum · # ? Dec 8, 2011 20:30

bull3964 posted:

The fun part is, it will probably be literally the same system with just different switchgear that doesn't show the auto settings and the subtraction of one or two sensors from the cabin.

Added "luxury crap" is added because it's basically a no cost add anymore.

For example, cruise control. If throttle is already drive by wire, adding a few subroutines in to maintain a certain speed and a few switches to control it is trivial and costs virtually nothing more than the raw material of the switchgear plastic.

Same with the climate control. Fan speed and blend doors will already be computer controlled because it's a cheaper and more reliable system than vacuum actuators and physical linkages between the controls and the rest of the system. So, you just add in a few temp sensors and add the control logic to the computer to maintain temp and you have auto climate control. 98% of the work is already done for manual control, you just have to add the extra inputs and logic.

The same with navigation. The most expensive component for that will be the LCD touch screen and and the licensing of maps. I wouldn't be surprised if GPS is integrated on the SoC of a lot of factory radios nowadays, whether or not they actually have a navigation system. So, it's cheaper for them to use a single component when they build the cars and just give navigation to all.

People are operating under a faulty premise that not including these items would lower the price of the car when you are probably looking at MAYBE a $200 cost to include the stuff.

In all reality, they probably have to add stuff like this in to justify the higher price that the engineering behind the car dictates. If Subaru determines that they need to charge around ~$25k to make a profit on this project, increasing the cost by a few hundred dollars and adding features that people expect at that price point makes the car more marketable.

You're probably right about this, it does make a lot of sense but automatic climate control is still annoying as gently caress. Trying to get just plain fresh vent air on them is always an exercise in frustration. If there's really not much difference in how the system is actually operated and it's just the controls, why not give me the controls that don't suck?

Built-in nav is even worse for the reasons already mentioned, it's just a shittier, slower, out of date version of the same GPS that everyone has in their smart phone. Am I that crazy for not wanting a bright LCD screen in my field of vision all the time? My ideal head unit is a volume knob with an iPod dock. I had a rental Prius and that big LCD screen was awful driving at night, even with the brightness turned all the way down. Saab is probably the only company who ever got interior lighting right.

Rabble · # ? Dec 8, 2011 20:32

shodanjr_gr posted:

Honestly the scion exterior tickles me better than the BRZ and the interior looks equally cheap on both based on press shots (hugeass navi-unit on the BRZ, 90s stereo unit on the FRS and jesus gently caress is that an LCD clock with discrete hour/minute buttons?)

PS: Has there been any word on whether this will ship with some sort of LSD in the back?

Yes, LSD is standard supposedly on both Manual and Automatic.

cakesmith handyman · # ? Dec 8, 2011 20:32

I agree with you, up to the point I'd prefer a usb port & 3.5mm jack for my non-apple phone.

IOwnCalculus · # ? Dec 8, 2011 20:43

Cakefool posted:

I agree with you, up to the point I'd prefer a usb port & 3.5mm jack for my non-apple phone.

Bluetooth, you filthy Luddite.

dreesemonkey · # ? Dec 8, 2011 21:14

This just in guys, some people like a higher trim model that has the upgrades/options they would have bout anyway at higher base price than the laughable plebeian model. Clearly, these people are entitled trust fund brats who would rather DIE than twist their wrist to start the car.

Other people would prefer to pay a few thousand dollars less for an otherwise identical car and pick and choose what options they do or do not want included. Unfortunately for these people they are ugly, fat, and cheapskates who are no doubt bad at sports and probably don't have sex very often.

sanchez · sanchez Feb 26, 2003

IOwnCalculus posted:

Bluetooth, you filthy Luddite.

I want a headunit with integrated 3g that runs Android. A 21st century carphone basically.

Ouhei · # ? Dec 8, 2011 21:58

Internet Explorer posted:

That's a pretty amazing point of view. I don't hang out in AI, but I was checking this thread because I love my 07 tC. Sure, I'm not a car nut and when I bought it, really not all that interested in cars and "driving." Since I got my car though, wow, what an amazingly fun thing to drive. I have a hard time driving anything else.

So yes, the commercials are stupid and the marketing is stupid, and yes, maybe the tC is a car for Jersey ricer fags. But you know what? I'm glad I didn't know that at the time. It's a fantastic car for the price, and the new Toyotoa/Scion/Subaru seems to be a big improvement. If you're in a huff because of the brand, that's a shame and you're missing out. But at least you can buy the Subaru.

No hard feelings here, if you like the car enjoy driving it. I love my s2000 and can't imagine driving much of anything else either, the BRZ/86/FR-S is the only thing to come out in recent years that could theoretically replace it to me.

If Scion releases their pricing and they're at like $4k lower than Subaru I'd consider dealing with whatever gripes I have. But to me ~2k more is justified with the added features (auto climate, navi), styling choices, and the Subaru name. But again, that's just me.

CAT INTERCEPTOR · # ? Dec 8, 2011 22:46

law abiding rapist posted:

You're probably right about this, it does make a lot of sense but automatic climate control is still annoying as gently caress. Trying to get just plain fresh vent air on them is always an exercise in frustration. If there's really not much difference in how the system is actually operated and it's just the controls, why not give me the controls that don't suck?

Built-in nav is even worse for the reasons already mentioned, it's just a shittier, slower, out of date version of the same GPS that everyone has in their smart phone. Am I that crazy for not wanting a bright LCD screen in my field of vision all the time? My ideal head unit is a volume knob with an iPod dock. I had a rental Prius and that big LCD screen was awful driving at night, even with the brightness turned all the way down. Saab is probably the only company who ever got interior lighting right.

Okay, I see the point about nav systems, yes they suck and yes they should be ripped out and tossed as loving far as possible. Mobile phones usually have embedded GPS and maps so gently caress car based ones.

But HVAC controls? REALLY? Look, it's actually LIGHTER than manual controls and the components that Subaru put in for this are also very, very light so WTF are you on about? Fresh air? Flick button, little lightweight motor goes BREEEEEE and opens the fresh air vent and lightweight fan gives you up to 20 preset settign of air velocity or there is a lightweight button that sets off a tiny ROM that ....

Oh gently caress, I cant continue. I'm a weight and feature nazi but seriously HVAC???? SUBARU HVAC??? There is absolutly wrong with it at all.

Q_res · # ? Dec 8, 2011 22:49

Haven't we hit the point where electric windows are lighter than crank windows? People still bitch about those too.

tbb9 · tbb9 Sep 6, 2011

Q_res posted:

Haven't we hit the point where electric windows are lighter than crank windows? People still bitch about those too.

also floor mats

mattmofob · # ? Dec 8, 2011 22:56

Here is what I want to see:

Only registered members can see post attachments!

bull3964 · # ? Dec 8, 2011 23:11

mattmofob posted:

Here is what I want to see:

I hope that you are willing to pay a few grand more for that then since they will have to build your car on a specialized line.

shodanjr_gr · # ? Dec 8, 2011 23:11

mattmofob posted:

Here is what I want to see:

No windshield delete? Pfff...posh 1%-er.

Hugh G. Rectum · # ? Dec 8, 2011 23:14

Cat Terrist posted:

Okay, I see the point about nav systems, yes they suck and yes they should be ripped out and tossed as loving far as possible. Mobile phones usually have embedded GPS and maps so gently caress car based ones.

But HVAC controls? REALLY? Look, it's actually LIGHTER than manual controls and the components that Subaru put in for this are also very, very light so WTF are you on about? Fresh air? Flick button, little lightweight motor goes BREEEEEE and opens the fresh air vent and lightweight fan gives you up to 20 preset settign of air velocity or there is a lightweight button that sets off a tiny ROM that ....

Oh gently caress, I cant continue. I'm a weight and feature nazi but seriously HVAC???? SUBARU HVAC??? There is absolutly wrong with it at all.

I haven't used Subaru's climate control but the Mercedes one I've had to deal with is incomprehensible and loving terrible. Turn off the A/C? Oh that's the "EC" button. Vent air? Good luck. If you turn the fan to zero it also turns on recirc for some incomprehensible reason, and if you scroll the temp knobs to the coldest it doesn't do poo poo. Perfectly happy to blame ZE GERMANS for that poo poo though.

Maybe the Subaru system is better, I'll have to try it before I'll get mad about it.

edit: Subarus already come with a Paint Delete option, just drive one on the highway for a couple years (not bitter)

bull3964 · # ? Dec 8, 2011 23:28

The Subaru automatic climate control is easy.

It's the same 3 dials as the manual control. On both the fan speed dial and vent selection dial there is an "Auto" selection available. The temperature dial has numbered degrees on it instead the blue to red shading.

If you want to set things manually, it's used exactly the same as the normal manual control. If you want to do things automatically, you just set the first two dials to auto and set your temp.

IOwnCalculus · # ? Dec 8, 2011 23:28

sanchez posted:

I want a headunit with integrated 3g that runs Android. A 21st century carphone basically.

Android yes, but gently caress integrated 3G/modems; technology on that poo poo can change faster than you want to change your car. I would much rather it use whatever cellphone I have at the time via Bluetooth and/or wifi or something like that.

Hugh G. Rectum · # ? Dec 8, 2011 23:31

bull3964 posted:

The Subaru automatic climate control is easy.

It's the same 3 dials as the manual control. On both the fan speed dial and vent selection dial there is an "Auto" selection available. The temperature dial has numbered degrees on it instead the blue to red shading.

If you want to set things manually, it's used exactly the same as the normal manual control. If you want to do things automatically, you just set the first two dials to auto and set your temp.

Ah that sounds reasonable, never trust Germans to design something simple and easy to use :negative:

So to get just vent air you can just turn the fan off and set the temp to the coldest like normal?

bull3964 · # ? Dec 8, 2011 23:36

law abiding rapist posted:

So to get just vent air you can just turn the fan off and set the temp to the coldest like normal?

Yup, that's exactly it.

There's one position on the fan dial that's before Auto for completely off. You do that and then sent the temp to coldest and you have flow through from the vents.

This link shows what it's like on the Forester. The styling is a bit different on the impreza, but same functionality.

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/attachments/f77/9022d1196261437-plasti-dip-hvac-controls-img_5101a.jpg

bull3964 fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Dec 8, 2011

Franco Caution · # ? Dec 9, 2011 00:21

Im going to sit on the fence for a couple years and watch this unfold before I think of getting one.

The same annoying scenario happens all the time but I guess that is the way it has to go when new cars come out.

1) They release a NA version of the car.
2) A bunch of magazines and tuner shops do a bunch of custom work to these initial NA cars. The public eats them up.
3) The initial batch arrives at the dealerships and are marked up like crazy making the car really not worth it in comparison to other cars.
4) Manufactures continue cockteasing every one with hints of a more powerful version coming down the road.
5) Finally a year or two later a turbo or SC version comes out. Every one who bought first or second year versions of the cars gets pissed.
6) These things start sitting on the lots with discounts and I show up and get one finally :haw:

CAT INTERCEPTOR · # ? Dec 9, 2011 00:38

Q_res posted:

Haven't we hit the point where electric windows are lighter than crank windows? People still bitch about those too.

Been that way for quite a while now - the other thing is that you dont need as strong mouting points on the door. They are also more reliable too.

Jean Eric Burn · # ? Dec 9, 2011 00:39

Do they really have electric motors that are lighter than a bowden cable + (plastic) slider these days? I won't explicitly call bullshit on that as I haven't been following these things closely, and the difference is probably miniscule, but can anyone really verify that?

E: I mean regarding AC flappers, I'm aware of the situation with the window regulators.

CAT INTERCEPTOR · # ? Dec 9, 2011 01:11

Piano posted:

Do they really have electric motors that are lighter than a bowden cable + (plastic) slider these days? I won't explicitly call bullshit on that as I haven't been following these things closely, and the difference is probably miniscule, but can anyone really verify that?

Yes of course they do. This is from a company that does Group N cars where the HVAC has to be in place - and is in fact NOT removed when you dont use them for Group N, the weight is gently caress all.

opengl · opengl Sep 16, 2010

bull3964 posted:

The Subaru automatic climate control is easy.

It's the same 3 dials as the manual control. On both the fan speed dial and vent selection dial there is an "Auto" selection available. The temperature dial has numbered degrees on it instead the blue to red shading.

If you want to set things manually, it's used exactly the same as the normal manual control. If you want to do things automatically, you just set the first two dials to auto and set your temp.

My auto climate control unit works very similarly. It's there, but is super easy to ignore it and manually set everything.

Jean Eric Burn · # ? Dec 9, 2011 01:52

Cat Terrist posted:

Yes of course they do. This is from a company that does Group N cars where the HVAC has to be in place - and is in fact NOT removed when you dont use them for Group N, the weight is gently caress all.

I guess that makes sense, my brain just can't conceptualize that, as a typical bowden cable is like 10 gauge(?) And probably weighs a couple ounces per foot. The lightest similar motor I had a weight reference for in my head was out of a newer honda, and was pretty hefty, though they probably don't care about weight in that application.

Isizzlehorn · # ? Dec 9, 2011 05:01

Franco Caution posted:

Im going to sit on the fence for a couple years and watch this unfold before I think of getting one.

The same annoying scenario happens all the time but I guess that is the way it has to go when new cars come out.

1) They release a NA version of the car.
2) A bunch of magazines and tuner shops do a bunch of custom work to these initial NA cars. The public eats them up.
3) The initial batch arrives at the dealerships and are marked up like crazy making the car really not worth it in comparison to other cars.
4) Manufactures continue cockteasing every one with hints of a more powerful version coming down the road.
5) Finally a year or two later a turbo or SC version comes out. Every one who bought first or second year versions of the cars gets pissed.
6) These things start sitting on the lots with discounts and I show up and get one finally

Point 3 won't happen if you buy from Scion, it's like a brand 'thing' to pay MSRP or less without any markup. You know, if you can get past the 'boy ricer' cred or whatever imaginary assumptions you may/may not have built up.

Point 4 and 5 will definitely happen with Subaru, it's a no-brainer to put the turbo'd FB into their brand new RWD sports coupe. But this will not happen with Toyota/Scion. They don't build TRD models, they build TRD kits. You'll pay like $3-5k for it, but it won't void the warranty, and it will last as long or longer than any custom job. This is how Toyota has done things for over a decade now, don't expect that part of them to change (especially after they've already admitted TRD is hard at work on an s/c already). Just make sure you get the kit as soon as it's available: Toyota never build the kits for long and when it's discontinued, it's discontinued forever.

Adbot · # ? Jun 2, 2024 08:14

ROFLBOT · ROFLBOT Apr 1, 2005

Franco Caution posted:

Im going to sit on the fence for a couple years and watch this unfold before I think of getting one.

The same annoying scenario happens all the time but I guess that is the way it has to go when new cars come out.

1) They release a NA version of the car.
2) A bunch of magazines and tuner shops do a bunch of custom work to these initial NA cars. The public eats them up.
3) The initial batch arrives at the dealerships and are marked up like crazy making the car really not worth it in comparison to other cars.
4) Manufactures continue cockteasing every one with hints of a more powerful version coming down the road.
5) Finally a year or two later a turbo or SC version comes out. Every one who bought first or second year versions of the cars gets pissed.
6) These things start sitting on the lots with discounts and I show up and get one finally

...which is no different to many other consumer goods, for example PC hardware - theres always something better on the horizon, at some point you have to buy in. Any ETA yet on the new MX-5?