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Seems to me that it might be a good idea to source pre-existing art in some way in that sort of situation, at least wherever that is possible. Perhaps try to find art assets people have already made and ask if you can use them for a credit or, if your confident, some other reward. Obviously you can't get exactly what you want but you can at least make a functional patchwork of art actually made by artists. Stencyl is pretty cool about the sharing of assets like that, and obviously there are communities around the major engines like UDK and Unity which might throw up useful stuff. Of course I don't know all the implications of doing this for a commercial title of some kind. For various reasons I'm trying to make basic 3D assets in Blender and get them into UDK. Way more to learn and more time consuming but I'm keeping my options open about working in design or with the pipeline. Also fun. It would be nice if I could put something together that attracted investors and allowed me to recruit others, but who knows if that's possible now, or will be in the future. Wish I could network with more people at Ninja Theory or Rocksteady, those guys definitely did things I would want to emulate.
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Dec 14, 2011 23:51
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I know no one reads links so here's a summary of the 20 tips from those three articles I listed. 1. Beware of those who ask if you have time to — quote — "knock out a few pages" or "whip out a few sketches" or any other clause that implies minimal time or effort. Those who seek freebees often employ such terms to make it sound like they're not asking for much. 2. Avoid the barter system. A writer who called about my column told me of a U.E. who's forever calling him offering household appliances: 3. Don't, under any circumstances, fall for the old, "I thought you were an artist" ploy. A lot of creative folks are susceptible to this one. They like to feel that they do what they do for love and free expression and pride in craft, and that the money is but a happy incidental. This attitude makes them easy prey for those who know how to push those buttons. 4. This is kind of an odd one and I'm not sure I can explain it...but, trust me, it's true. Never deal with anyone who uses any form of the phrase, "getting my ducks in a row," as in, "We'll work out all the terms next week. 5. Don't get rid of these people by foisting them off on some other professional: "Gee, I'd love to help you but I'm really swamped at the moment. Tell you what...here's the phone number of someone else who might be able to help you." 6. Ask the Unfinanced Entrepreneur what he or she brings to the project. If they want you to invest your time and creativity, ask them what they're investing. If they say, "Well, I'm kind of the point man on this..." or "I have a flair for putting people together," this means they're not doing anything except getting others to do all the work and that they will usually demand the largest share. If they say, "Well, I had the basic idea," that's when you remind them that the basic idea is usually the easy part. The hard part is developing that basic idea into something that is fleshed-out enough that someone might buy it. And if they say, "I'm managing the whole enterprise," that's when you suggest that they manage to scare up your customary fee. 7. Ask them why there's no money. If it is so vital that they have "a few pages" by you — if it such a Sure Thing that this endeavor will reap greenbacks by the kilo — ask why they don't (a) put up their own money to pay you or (b) drum up some investors to do that. 8. If you suggest a contract or the involvement of lawyers, and they show the slightest hesitation or stall tactic, run the other way. 9. Beware of the person who wants you to work for free, says he or she has a Very Important Contact that is certain to make things happen...but won't tell you the name of that Very Important Contact. 10. And finally, if you do decide you want to invest in an idea, invest in one of your own. You must have a couple lying around — things you've always wanted to write or draw...ideas that excite you...projects that you think should be done, and not just because they'll make a buck for someone. (Although, making a buck can be a perfectly acceptable reason, all by itself.)
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Dec 14, 2011 23:57
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Sigma-X posted:I know no one reads links so here's a summary of the 20 tips from those three articles I listed. Either way, we'll work out all the terms next week. I've got to get my ducks in a row here - I'm running point on this, you understand, so busy busy busy. Putting a fair few people together here, and if nothing else, it should be great experience for you. EDIT: I feel dirty Shalinor fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Dec 15, 2011 |
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Dec 15, 2011 00:08
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Ugh, it's kind of disconcerting that everything you just wrote sounds like something you'd actually hear (except for the toaster).
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Dec 15, 2011 00:12
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Shalinor posted:I was wondering if you could knock out a few pages summarizing those tips in visual form. We've got a really big presentation coming up with a hugely important client, and - I really think you're a great fit for our operation. You're a true artist. I'm thinking if things work out, there may be some equity in it for you. Or if you can't wait that long, I could probably give you a little something to help you out in the mean time. Any chance you need a toaster? Oh man I'm signing right up. Where do I put all my money into this seemingly flawless operation?
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Dec 15, 2011 01:24
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Waterbed posted:Oh man I'm signing right up. Where do I put all my money into this seemingly flawless operation? Into this here toaster.
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Dec 15, 2011 01:51
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I love my money toasted.
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Dec 15, 2011 04:01
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I'm in, but only if you're making a AAA, triple-platform experience with a freemium model. It needs to leverage social media integration with Facebook and Twitter to drive player retention. We need 100 maps and 37 game modes and a player progression system with meaningful unlocks at every rank. Everything needs to be perfectly balanced at all skill and unlock levels. It must be playable with Kinect, Move, Wiimote, Controller, or Keyboard/Mouse and be equally balanced with all input methods. It MUST HAVE 3D support including 3D menus and HUD. It needs to release simultaneously on current gen platforms, next gen platforms, iOS, Android, and Facebook with dedicated servers on all platforms.
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Dec 15, 2011 04:15
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icking fudiot posted:I'm in, but only if you're making a AAA, triple-platform experience with a freemium model. It needs to leverage social media integration with Facebook and Twitter to drive player retention. We need 100 maps and 37 game modes and a player progression system with meaningful unlocks at every rank. Everything needs to be perfectly balanced at all skill and unlock levels. It must be playable with Kinect, Move, Wiimote, Controller, or Keyboard/Mouse and be equally balanced with all input methods. It MUST HAVE 3D support including 3D menus and HUD. It needs to release simultaneously on current gen platforms, next gen platforms, iOS, Android, and Facebook with dedicated servers on all platforms. Gotta make sure all the art is suitably desaturated!
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Dec 15, 2011 04:47
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icking fudiot posted:I'm in, but only if you're making a AAA, triple-platform experience with a freemium model. It needs to leverage social media integration with Facebook and Twitter to drive player retention. We need 100 maps and 37 game modes and a player progression system with meaningful unlocks at every rank. Everything needs to be perfectly balanced at all skill and unlock levels. It must be playable with Kinect, Move, Wiimote, Controller, or Keyboard/Mouse and be equally balanced with all input methods. It MUST HAVE 3D support including 3D menus and HUD. It needs to release simultaneously on current gen platforms, next gen platforms, iOS, Android, and Facebook with dedicated servers on all platforms. We're going to license GameBryo.
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Dec 15, 2011 05:50
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As one of those loathsome freebie-seekers, I thought I'd run myself through Sigma's list as a litmus test.Sigma-X posted:1. Beware of those who ask if you have time to — quote — "knock out a few pages" or "whip out a few sketches" or any other clause that implies minimal time or effort. Those who seek freebees often employ such terms to make it sound like they're not asking for much. 1. I know exactly what my needs are and the requirements and when I need them by etc. I still don't think it's a ton of work, but I'd never say they could just be "knocked out". 2. Seriously? Appliances? Yeesh. Of course, I'm just offering a percentage of the profits once its published, which you can argue is even less substantial, but appliances? That's just tacky. 3. Would never use this. I'm well familiar with the creative urge, but that kind of "I just gotta drawwritecodewhatever!" enthusiasm should be on personal projects. 4. Never say this. 5. Don't really see what's wrong with this one. If I ask someone and they're not interested, I'd be thrilled if they had an idea of someone who is. 6. I've been doing all the level design, not just thinking up ideas but actually coding in each level in the editor we built, including triggers, popups, spawn points, and all the other "icky" aspects of level design. This is on top of coordinating all the programmers and artists and musicians together to make sure everything gels, writing out all the story and dialogue bits, etc. I am managing the whole team, yes, but that's not all I do by a longshot. 7. There's no money because it was started as a hobby project by a bunch of university kids. There's one of us on the whole team that isn't five figures in debt from student loans and whatnot, that's part of what we're hoping the game will alleviate. So a) is out because none of us have any and b) is out because we don't know any of those kinds of people. 8. Would have no problem with this- so long as the lawyer is free. 9. I have a lot of contacts through the foundation an indie otherwise wouldn't, and since I'm setting aside a percentage of my share as fundraising, there are a lot of people I could talk to that would put us in an advantageous situaton and I'd be plenty willing to name names in private, but just rattling off a list here would seem indecorous. 10. No arguments here. Best I can do is try to get you excited in the project, which the rest of the team seemed to be, at least until our background artist up and vanished. So how's that? Am I still one of the unclean, or can I get an exemption? 
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Dec 15, 2011 05:53
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The difference between exploitative poison jobs and legit things that just don't have money is the degree of disclosure, really. "Maybe you can just bang out a couple models because you're an artist you do this for fun don't you? Besides, it'll be great for your portfolio. Oh don't worry about the cash, I'm the idea guy and it's a great idea and I got this friend and it'll be fine and when we're millionaires you can have equity." VS "I'm putting together an indie development team, we're making a <game> and I do the tools stuff and engine programming and my roommate Mark is doing the level design and the music but neither of us is much of an artist. We've got two levels done so far but the art is all really bad placeholders at this point because we don't have a proper artist. We're thinking about <x> amount of art, stuff like <stuff> and we can't exactly pay you right now, or maybe ever, but if you wanted to help out we would really appreciate it, and we're totally open to work on a contract w/r/t future payment."
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Dec 15, 2011 06:36
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I'm gonna have to side with Diplomaticus here. An equity stake is not nothing, as long as it's real and you're not misleading people about the chance of success. I hate to see our skills getting devalued as much as anyone. But if I was in a position where I could contribute to a project and didn't have other paid work, I would probably do it. The credit is not nothing either, if the project actually completes. But credit alone is silly. The equity is important. It would have to be non-trivial (probably double-digits if a small team), and I would have to be convinced that the project had at least some chance of commercial success. But I don't find the idea absurd or offensive at all.
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Dec 15, 2011 07:00
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GetWellGamers posted:5. Don't really see what's wrong with this one. If I ask someone and they're not interested, I'd be thrilled if they had an idea of someone who is. I think he's just saying that if you come across someone that looks dodgy, don't pass them on to one of your contacts as an easy way to end the conversation, because you risk damaging your relationship with your contact once they find out it's obviously poo poo work.
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Dec 15, 2011 07:51
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Shalinor posted:We're going to license GameBryo. AUUUUUUUUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHFFUuuuuck that.
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Dec 15, 2011 07:59
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ceebee posted:AUUUUUUUUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHFFUuuuuck that. Yeah seriously. We can just use the Doom 3 engine because it's open source and that's how open source works 
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Dec 15, 2011 08:03
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icking fudiot posted:I'm in, but only if you're making a AAA, triple-platform experience with a freemium model. It needs to leverage social media integration with Facebook and Twitter to drive player retention. We need 100 maps and 37 game modes and a player progression system with meaningful unlocks at every rank. Everything needs to be perfectly balanced at all skill and unlock levels. It must be playable with Kinect, Move, Wiimote, Controller, or Keyboard/Mouse and be equally balanced with all input methods. It MUST HAVE 3D support including 3D menus and HUD. It needs to release simultaneously on current gen platforms, next gen platforms, iOS, Android, and Facebook with dedicated servers on all platforms. Hey, your project really caught my eye. I don't have any appreciable or tangible skills, but I can look at things and make things better. My friends have often come up to me and said "man, you really have an eye for refinement". I'm thinking I can come in two hours a day and look over your things and tell you what you can improve. Does that sound good? I don't need to work for much, just give me 20% share in the company and pay for food, transportation, rent, utilities, furniture, computer upgrades.
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Dec 15, 2011 08:14
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There's a simple resolution to your problem Diplomaticus - pay your artist. Now, hear me out. Your project could be the next CS you say. Great. So that equity is super valuable. Since you have a day job, just pay the artist(s) out of your pocket and take the equity you're going to give them. You'll be investing in this super sure thing of a project, and getting rich on your returns. Hope that helps.
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Dec 15, 2011 08:26
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Or, you know, do the thing we tell every programmer in the Making Games thread: Demonstrate you mean business by showing off your prototype with lovely programmer art. If the project is fun with crappy art, you demonstrate that you aren't going to suck quite so hard to donate work for.
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Dec 15, 2011 08:39
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Pfhreak posted:Demonstrate you mean business by showing off your prototype with lovely programmer art. If the project is fun with crappy art, you demonstrate that you aren't going to suck quite so hard to donate work for. This. If you're going to ask for free work do this. As an artist when I was younger the main issue I found when looking for mod teams and indie groups was the lack of anything short of crappy concept art and rendered high poly models. My time is too valuable these days to do free work 
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Dec 15, 2011 09:25
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Got me a real, live Carbine art test! Looks like I'll be working on my vacation!
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Dec 15, 2011 12:04
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Dear xxxxxxxxx Re: Application for xxxxxxxxxx Thank you for your recent application for our vacancy of xxxxxxxxxx We have received a huge response to the advertisements and the calibre of applicants has been extremely high. We regret that after careful consideration we will not be taking your application further on this occasion, as there were other applicants whose skills and background more closely matched our requirements. We would like to apologise for the delay in getting back to you and would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your interest in xxxxxxx and the time taken in pursuing your application. We also wish you well in your search for a suitable position. Please feel free to keep an eye on our website for future vacancies.
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Dec 15, 2011 12:10
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Porksword posted:Dear xxxxxxxxx Either I know exactly where this is from or it's an industry-wide form letter. Probably just as well honestly. If it's any consolation they probably didn't even look at your application and are, in spite of what the website says, not looking for anyone for the role you applied for.
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Dec 15, 2011 12:24
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Yeah they didn't look. But just such a douchey auto responder!
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Dec 15, 2011 12:26
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Porksword posted:Yeah they didn't look. But just such a douchey auto responder! Imagine how it feels to get it when you've previously worked at the place.
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Dec 15, 2011 13:22
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Oh lordy! Hahah well at least now I know definitely not to take it personally.
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Dec 15, 2011 13:34
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Shalinor posted:Dear Aliginge 
GeeCee fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Dec 15, 2011 |
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Dec 15, 2011 14:53
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In my usercp, right on top of each other... Battlestar Galactica Thread 2: Food is NEVER an Issue. Game Jobs Megathread #3: (except for the toaster) Battlestar Galactica: "You know, I know about farming." I am now hungry.
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Dec 15, 2011 15:01
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I think we've reached the epitome of game job thread titles, where everyone after this will not nearly be as funny. I'm personally glad it had to do with toasters.
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Dec 15, 2011 15:21
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I feel honored.
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Dec 15, 2011 16:29
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Aliginge posted:goddammit Your portfolio had a few good appliance pieces in it, but we're really looking for someone who specializes in toasters and has experience in toast pipelines.
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Dec 15, 2011 17:04
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RoboCicero posted:Hey, your project really caught my eye. I don't have any appreciable or tangible skills, but I can look at things and make things better. My friends have often come up to me and said "man, you really have an eye for refinement". I'm thinking I can come in two hours a day and look over your things and tell you what you can improve. Does that sound good? I don't need to work for much, just give me 20% share in the company and pay for food, transportation, rent, utilities, furniture, computer upgrades. Don't be tricked, this project is a ripoff of my work! I came into an interview a while back for a design position with these guys and pitched my idea for a multi-user, free to use but microtransaction based Waffle Iron! I brought my 223 page design document that outlines all of the different waffle stats and what they affect and the different locations that the player can take the waffle iron to (It makes double fluffy waffles in Japan)! Now they've obviously stolen my idea, changed a few things around and called it a toaster. I demand compensation! I was told by SO many veterans of the industry that this could never happen and that ideas are a dime a dozen but here we are! I should have NEVER listened, this could have made me so rich! I COULD HAVE BEEN THE IDEAS GUY.
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Dec 15, 2011 19:07
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http://keepthewebopen.com/sopa If you are watching the SOPA discussion in commmittee, they just had a huge discussion on toasters, IPs, and whether you could sue toast. There is comedy gold here. "I'm not a nerd, but I aspire to be a nerd." "I think, in fact, that in most cases where there was enforcement acts against a toaster, it was a mistake." (http://judiciary.house.gov/about/members.html if you want to know who is talking.) Leif. fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Dec 15, 2011 |
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Dec 15, 2011 19:30
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Diplomaticus posted:If you are watching the SOPA discussion in commmittee, they just had a huge discussion on toasters, IPs, and whether you could sue.
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Dec 15, 2011 20:55
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Shalinor posted:From your perspective, is SOPA still a threat, or is it not likely to pass at this point? Curious about this as well. In general I'm not a fan of any sort of legislation like this. As a content developer I absolutely hate piracy but I don't think this sort of draconian legislation benefits consumers, citizens, or small content developers, instead giving a bunch of public money to ill-advised enforcement for large publishers. The responsibility of creating 'unpiratable' content should lie directly on the media developer, and the goal should be earning conversions. I get that SOPA is really just using piracy as a trojan horse to allow Internet Police type poo poo, but I don't even think that's a valid justification.
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Dec 15, 2011 20:59
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Sigma-X posted:Curious about this as well. In general I'm not a fan of any sort of legislation like this. Content shouldn't be "unpiratable" as that's really putting the blame in the wrong place. Steam has shown that people will pay for content if it's convenient enough to acquire and not overpriced for what you get. I'm willing to bet more people bought Bulletstorm at $30 and $20 than they did at $60.
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Dec 15, 2011 21:02
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NINbuntu 64 posted:Content shouldn't be "unpiratable" as that's really putting the blame in the wrong place. Steam has shown that people will pay for content if it's convenient enough to acquire and not overpriced for what you get. I'm willing to bet more people bought Bulletstorm at $30 and $20 than they did at $60. I don't mean as in draconian locks, I mean as in making something that everyone wants to buy. It should be our goal to make something that no one pirates, because everyone wants to buy it. for example, WoW is a pretty unpiratable product. Single player AAA games are very piratable. iPhone games are largely unpiratable because the cost/benefit on jailbreaking your iphone vs $1 for Angry Birds is pretty wack.
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Dec 15, 2011 21:06
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Shalinor posted:From your perspective, is SOPA still a threat, or is it not likely to pass at this point? It's hard to tell, but as it stands it very much is still a threat. The amendments today, if they haven't already, are likely to pass committee. I think the whole thing, as it currently stands, couldn't pass a floor vote, not with the pressure that's being put on it right now. I can almost guarantee, without going into too much detail on it, that you'll see a coordinated blackout of the major sites like Wikipedia in protest, which will really start to put the pressure on. Darrell Issa is taking it to the court on this, and his office has been working closely with the tech industry on this. My speculation, for what it's worth is that the longer this discussion drags on, the better the chances of it being amended into something tolerable -- the closer it gets to the election, the worse this is going to be for the Republicans, especially given today's Pew poll showing that the general public views them by far as the obstructionists in Congress. The minute this gets spun in a way that shows how badly this threatens job security in the tech sector (in this economy) will make it politically tough to support, and I really don't think the GOP right now has the heart to do a standup battle on this. If they can't get in lockstep, I don't think it will pass on the floor. That being said, I am almost certain it WILL reach the floor.
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Dec 15, 2011 21:48
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Diplomaticus posted:That being said, I am almost certain it WILL reach the floor.  So how ARE those game studios up in Canada, anyways?
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Dec 15, 2011 21:52
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Shalinor posted:Oh man, don't worry, we've got this. this is literally killspace.
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Dec 15, 2011 22:38
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