|
UncleMonkey posted:So I just recently started Last Argument of Kings, and something I'm still wondering about is I still don't get why Bayaz needed Jezal on the quest for retrieve the Seed. I know why he needed Logen and Ferro, just not Jezal. If there is something still to be revealed, that's fine. I'm just wondering if I missed something. I thought it was so he could get to know Jezal a bit and begin manipulating him before making him king?
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2011 01:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 18:15 |
|
|
The Supreme Court posted:I thought it was so he could get to know Jezal a bit and begin manipulating him before making him king? Which he hasn't gotten to yet since he just started Last Argument of Kings... And actually I think it was more to build Jezal's legend so that it would be easier to make him king
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2011 01:40
|
|
|
Kekekela posted:Which he hasn't gotten to yet since he just started Last Argument of Kings... I can't read, oh dear. That makes more sense, thanks!
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2011 11:37
|
|
|
Just finished reading The First Law trilogy. Uh, ah, huh, croak, squelch, squawk, sour spit. Think that about sums it up. Great read.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2011 20:51
|
|
|
Bayaz motivation speculation superstation: He engineered the conflict between Juvens and Kanedias because his plans for absolute control over the world wouldn't allow for potential enemies who could rival his power. Logical, calculated, and entirely consistent with his character. But I can't figure out why he killed Tolomei. He seemed to have her under his thumb already, and I'm not sure what "secrets" needed to be protected by her dying. Maybe he just didn't want someone that powerful around, but it seems more Bayaz style to twist the powerful into doing his bidding if possible rather than killing them outright.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2011 21:35
|
|
|
I could be forgetting some key quotes which contradict this... But I got the impression Bayaz didn't want absolute control over the world. It seems like he was just a conniving student of Juvens who fell in love with Tolomei. He engineered some sort of fight between Juvens and Kaneidas to try to win Tolomei (but that failed miserably), so he was left as (arguably) the most powerful magic user in the world. He then felt it was his duty to 'protect' the world's citizens, and is doing so in a ruthless manner. I haven't read The Heroes, and it's been a while since I read TFL trilogy, so I could be forgetting something.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2011 22:28
|
|
|
syphon posted:I could be forgetting some key quotes which contradict this... He betrayed Tolemei as soon as she let him in to the house of the maker though. It seemed pretty clear that he was just using her from what was revealed at their final confrontation, but I agree with Above Our Own that it wasn't really clear why other than he just wanted power, which is constantly reinforced as his primary motivator throughout the third book.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2011 00:11
|
|
|
Kekekela posted:Last Argument of Kings spoilers -> One of my favorite little details of the setting is the way that primary source of information about the mythological foundations of the world that most people are familiar with is a series of trashy, badly-written, overlong novels that most people turn their nose up at (no doubt authored by you-know-who and published by Valint & Balk Publishing, LLC). In other words, that world's equivalent of our cheesy fantasy novels.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2011 00:23
|
|
|
FMguru posted:I think she turned on him once she realized that he was just using her. They fought, and he killed her.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2011 04:40
|
|
|
I want to say it showed up in Before they are Hanged, on one of Glokta's visits to the university. or was that The Blade Itself?FMguru posted:In other words, that world's equivalent of our cheesy fantasy novels. I wouldn't say cheesy fantasy novels so much as as tiresome folklore like the Eddas or Beowulf or something. And I don't think Bayaz wrote the ones the adeptus historical gives Glokta, because a section was missing and it's kinda implied that one of Bayaz's scalawags took it. Unless that was Sult. Dammit I just finished a reread and already my memory's failing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2011 08:22
|
|
|
The Fall of the Master Maker trilogy is very overtly a swipe at Tolkienesque fantasy and the descriptions of them by the characters work perfectly as negative descriptions of Lord of the Rings itself. They're mentioned in both The Blade Itself and Last Argument of Kings, I think - Ardee is reading them at one point.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2011 12:27
|
|
|
So, The Heroes was really, really good. Is his first trilogy on par? If so, I'm buying that stuff next payday.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2011 05:15
|
|
|
ConfusedUs posted:So, The Heroes was really, really good.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2011 05:25
|
|
|
ConfusedUs posted:So, The Heroes was really, really good. The first book starts off a little generic, yet with better than average writing, but that's partly cause Abercrombie uses old fantasy tropes to gently caress with expectations.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2011 06:12
|
|
|
ConfusedUs posted:So, The Heroes was really, really good. The trilogy introduces you to perhaps my favorite character of all time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2011 06:25
|
|
|
Hughmoris posted:The trilogy introduces you to perhaps my favorite character of all time. The best part? This could be one of maybe six people, I have no loving idea. Abercrombie does great work with characters.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2011 06:53
|
|
|
I kind of want to skip Best Served Cold and go straight into Heroes. Would I be missing anything? (I've already read the trilogy)
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2011 07:56
|
|
|
Ugly In The Morning posted:The best part? This could be one of maybe six people, I have no loving idea. Abercrombie does great work with characters. It can only be Glokta, surely? An anti-hero who’s up there with the likes of Hannibal Lecter, and as interesting as all the other FL characters put together.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2011 10:26
|
|
|
Above Our Own posted:I kind of want to skip Best Served Cold and go straight into Heroes. Would I be missing anything? (I've already read the trilogy) Not really. You'll hear bits and pieces about Styria, what happenend and who's in charge that will spoil parts of BSC. Shivers and Gorst also have alot of things happen to them during BSC that directly effect Heroes. All in all nothing earth shattering, but some things will be spoiled. It might be interesting to read Heroes first, it would tuen BSC into a prequel.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2011 11:22
|
|
|
Above Our Own posted:I kind of want to skip Best Served Cold and go straight into Heroes. Would I be missing anything? (I've already read the trilogy) Missing anything? Nope. However, I enjoyed it more than Heroes and it sets up a few of the characters.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2011 13:46
|
|
|
Thanks for the responses, I guess I'll read BSC first. Abercrombie can write a hell of a character arc and I don't want to miss the setup if there's recurring characters between the two books.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2011 15:39
|
|
|
While I liked Glokta, his constant internal monologue got on my nerves. He just had to have some sort of witty/sarcastic unspoken response to every word someone said to him. Still, my opinion of him as a poor man's Tyrion Lannister improved over the course of the trilogy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2011 21:15
|
|
|
Just started reading The Heroes and it's fantastic, I've never read his other works. My only complaint is that some of the character names are really stupid. Wonderful? Brothers Shallow and Deep?
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2011 03:59
|
|
|
Industrial posted:Just started reading The Heroes and it's fantastic, I've never read his other works. My only complaint is that some of the character names are really stupid. Wonderful? Brothers Shallow and Deep? Its the part of the whole "Named Men" thing they do in the North. It should get explained fairly early on.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2011 04:08
|
|
|
Above Our Own posted:Thanks for the responses, I guess I'll read BSC first. Abercrombie can write a hell of a character arc and I don't want to miss the setup if there's recurring characters between the two books. A wise choice, because Shivers' arc is so awesome it hurts, and I don't think he'd be nearly as cool in The Heroes without reading it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2011 05:00
|
|
|
wellwhoopdedooo posted:A wise choice, because Shivers' arc is so awesome it hurts, and I don't think he'd be nearly as cool in The Heroes without reading it. Yeah, I read Heroes first, just finished BSC last week, and only realized who Shivers was in Heroes after reading this page and googling.  Definitely gonna have to do a reread of Heroes. Its funny because I had a hard time believing that guys actions towards the end of Heroes on my initial read, but it makes sense now.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2011 05:10
|
|
|
Kekekela posted:Yeah, I read Heroes first, just finished BSC last week, and only realized who Shivers was in Heroes after reading this page and googling. For me, his actions toward the middle were the most chilling goddamn thing ever. *poke* *poke* *poke*
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2011 08:01
|
|
|
Rereading Heroes now, god the Shivers parts have so much more oomph after having read the rest of the books. Trying to remember, were there any references to Craw or Dow's war chiefs (Golden, etc) in the trilogy? I'm thinking Tenways and Ironhead or whatever sound kind of familiar, I know they weren't big parts but maybe passing references?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2011 02:48
|
|
|
Just finished BSC. I felt like the plot was weaker and more contrived than the trilogy, but drat the man can do some good character development. I read it just for the character arcs and I'm glad I did. Can't wait to see Shivers in Heroes!
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2011 20:45
|
|
|
I finished Last Argument of Kings a few days ago and am planning to begin The Heroes today. I haven't read Best Served Cold, but I really want to start with The Heroes, because the trilogy was immensely enjoyable and I found The Heroes next to Last Argument in the library (but not Best Served Cold). I'll probably read BSC as a prequel later then. The first time I heard about Abercrombie was probably in the ASOIAF bad thread, when someone mentioned him having all GRRM's positive traits such as skillful writing and suspension while having none of the negative ones (laziness, fantasy world travel descriptions). Having read Abercrombie's trilogy, I concur completely. When the trilogy is juxtaposed with ASOIAF, poo poo actually gets done and the interval between buildup and the payoff is not too long for long term memory to handle. Abercrombie doesn't leave anyone with blue balls. The very best part of the trilogy is skillful writing. In my books, a good writer can make even a boring subject interesting and entertaining. It's actually the definitive character of a good writer. I'm a pretty picky reader, but writers such as Abercrombie and GRRM can make me not want to put the book down. I feel really sorry when a good story is wasted with uninteresting or - frankly - boring writing (classics!), but this is not an issue here as has been said already and Abercrombie's story is luckily as good as his writing. The Blade Itself needed some time to sink in, because at the beginning it felt like yet another generic fantasy world with a western-kind-of-kingdom of the good people (the Union), the Ottoman/Seljuk/Middle Eastern-kind-of-kingdom of the bad people (the Gurkish) and the North (vikings, barbarians, etc). That is understandable however because lot of fantasy writers use that kind of elements and it simply took some time for Abercrombie to show that his world really was honed and a bit different. The same goes for characters: at first I took Logen as this world's version of Conan the Barbarian and Glokta was just a poor man's Tyrion Lannister. Bayaz really started to shine in the last book, but overall nearly all the major characters were really memorable and like Ugly in the Morning said, the trilogy contains easily six different characters that could be called one's favorite of all time. In the end my favorite characters were Logen and Bayaz. Ninefingers because of his realistic worldview and witty humor, but also because of his character development and [spoil]ultimate failure in reaching his goal[/spoil]. First of the Magi on the other hand really seemed only a minor breaking against the wizard trope in the beginning: a wizard who looks more like a butcher and cuts meat, but that's it. In the Last Argument of Kings however his true colors were revealed: how can a man that has lived for thousands of years and who wields powerful magic be anything but arrogant, vain, full of himself and have little or no respect towards the lives of ordinary people? In any other book Bayaz would've been revealed as the evil character, but in the Last Argument he has been fleshed out as entirely human. A very powerful and old human with very human flaws.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2011 12:54
|
|
|
Well, halfway through Heroes and I feel like each book I've read is worse than the previous, but still not bad on the whole. Abercrombie does a great job turning traditional tropes around to create a darkly interesting world but at this point I feel like he's just rehashing all of his own themes and subverted traditions. I feel like he's created a bizzaro inverse middle earth where things are just as predictable as the traditional fantasy he's trying to get away from. More predictably blundering, incompetent Union officers, battle-hardened and pragmatic Northmen who feel terrified before battles, more immoral and manipulative "friendly wizard" types. With Logen, Shivers, and Craw I feel like I'm reading the same characters over and over again with slight differences. To the poster above, I highly recommend you read BSC first. Caul Shivers is a reoccurring character in both books and his story is really well developed in BSC.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2011 16:32
|
|
|
Above Our Own posted:Well, halfway through Heroes and I feel like each book I've read is worse than the previous, but still not bad on the whole. Abercrombie does a great job turning traditional tropes around to create a darkly interesting world but at this point I feel like he's just rehashing all of his own themes and subverted traditions. I feel like he's created a bizzaro inverse middle earth where things are just as predictable as the traditional fantasy he's trying to get away from. Some good points in there, I agree that he's been a bit too enthusiastic in knocking down fantasy tropes and cliches. That said he is one of the better fantasy authors in writing character motivations, hell his characterization in general is very strong. I rarely feel like I'm actually reading fantasy when I'm going through his books too, he does setting and theme so well. I think he needs to move away from the whole Bayaz/Khalul conflict unless he's going to give it some closure because it's not really going anywhere. His next book is supposedly going to be themed after a western so hopefully he'll try something new with the setting because it's starting to become fairly predictable.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2011 17:00
|
|
|
Above Our Own posted:Well, halfway through Heroes and I feel like each book I've read is worse than the previous, but still not bad on the whole. Abercrombie does a great job turning traditional tropes around to create a darkly interesting world but at this point I feel like he's just rehashing all of his own themes and subverted traditions. I feel basically the opposite. With each subsequent release, Joe has refined his technique and his character development. Yes, there's a substantial amount of similarities, especially between Shivers and Logan, but what he accomplishes with Shivers works far better logically than what he did with Logan. His story-telling methods have expanded significantly and show a willingness to take risks that weren't there before. See the Monza and Shivers sex scene The one that does not take place with Monza and Shivers and the long section where the viewpoint shifts every time a new character dies, ratcheting up the tension when you finally reach the characters you care about. I got a real sense of dread, which for me, is a rare feeling to get from a fantasy novel.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2011 17:52
|
|
|
Yeah, I don't disagree that his writing has notably improved in many areas and I'd still recommend all his work to anyone who likes fantasy. The problem is that he has kind of exhausted a lot of the settings, character types, and inverted tropes he seems to want to keep sticking with.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2011 17:57
|
|
|
BananaNutkins posted:I feel basically the opposite. With each subsequent release, Joe has refined his technique and his character development. Yes, there's a substantial amount of similarities, especially between Shivers and Logan, but what he accomplishes with Shivers works far better logically than what he did with Logan.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2011 05:25
|
|
|
Rurik posted:I finished Last Argument of Kings a few days ago and am planning to begin The Heroes today. I haven't read Best Served Cold, but I really want to start with The Heroes, because the trilogy was immensely enjoyable and I found The Heroes next to Last Argument in the library (but not Best Served Cold). I'll probably read BSC as a prequel later then. I'd recommend reading BSC first unless you just plan to skip it altogether. There are a couple of characters in Heroes that are greatly enhanced by having read BSC.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2011 07:54
|
|
|
Anyone know what the deal is with the prologue put at the very end of the heroes book in the extras section? Is that from his next book?
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2011 22:16
|
|
|
Trevefresh2 posted:Anyone know what the deal is with the prologue put at the very end of the heroes book in the extras section? Is that from his next book? Are you referring to Retired? or is there something else at the end of the book that my printed version is missing?
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2011 22:36
|
|
|
Bremer dan Gorst is such a loving good character. Abercrombie fleshed him out wonderfully in Heroes, he really has a knack for turning auxiliary characters like Kroy and Bremer into fully developed personalities.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2011 22:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 18:15 |
|
|
Above Our Own posted:Yeah, I don't disagree that his writing has notably improved in many areas and I'd still recommend all his work to anyone who likes fantasy. The problem is that he has kind of exhausted a lot of the settings, character types, and inverted tropes he seems to want to keep sticking with. I think Abercrombie is yet to really hit his stride, which -when you've written something as incredible as The First Law- is p. exciting.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2011 23:58
|
|