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Cacator posted:I haven't heard the greatest things about the 17mm. For pancakes you'd be better off with the 20mm f1.7 or the 14mm f2.5 which are fairly affordable, hell if you buy the 14 on eBay it's like $200 which is fantastic and the lens itself is absolutely tiny. My E-P3 with the 20mm performs better in low-light than the NEX-5N with the kit lens in my experience, but at there's definitely more noticeable ISO noise. I'd totally get the 14, but I find that 28mm is a bit wide for general use. I would much rather have the 20mm f/1.7 over all, but the E-PL3 has a kit with the 17mm and the 14-42 kit lens annoys me with how huge it is relative to the camera.
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Dec 21, 2011 00:59
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HPL posted:Okay, hotshots. Olympus E-PL3 with kit 17mm f/2.8 or Sony NEX-5N with kit 18-55? They're roughly the same price. I got the 5N after weighing my pros and cons between the options you listed as well as others. I figured that if I wanted something other than the kit lens (and I was sure I would, though it ended up being very usable) then I would get an adapter and some old MF lenses. Did that and have not been disappointed.
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Dec 21, 2011 01:36
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EP3 just because it looks nicer.
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Dec 21, 2011 01:52
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HPL posted:Except for the whole affordable prime debacle that is the NEX system as discussed earlier. Like I said, if Sony had a $400 30mm f/2 NEX pancake, it would be no contest. I think you should buy a NEX3 or even the Samsung NX100 for now. Either one can be had for $200 on ebay. Bigger sensor is always better than smaller sensor. Bigger sensor will make MF lenses more useful. Save your money for the Fuji EVIL system. It will come out with a 18mm (28mm equiv.) right off the bat. Any MF you use on the NEX can be reused on the Fuji with the same focal length. For example, you buy a 55mm/1.4 MF lens now, it will work as portrait lens for both NEX and Fuji. m4/3 is not an ambitious system. I don't know why people invest in it. You spend 2 grand you pretty much max out the top ceiling of the system and there is no space to grow. You want to grow you have to change system. Plus Panasonic sensors is at lease 1-2 years behind the competitions. Look at the m4/3 vs. J1/V1 DxO scores. Personally I think the Koreans has better color reproduction than m4/3 sensors.
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Dec 21, 2011 03:07
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whatever7 posted:m4/3 is not an ambitious system. I don't know why people invest in it. Because sensor size doesn't matter as much as everyone says it does and cos Olympus glass owns.
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Dec 22, 2011 03:38
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whatever7 posted:Look at the m4/3 vs. J1/V1 DxO scores. DxO scores don't hang in galleries or get magazine covers. Some of the best photos I've ever seen bear no reflection whatsoever on the DxO marks or megapickle count of the tool that took them. This isn't some math where you add up the numbers and the higher result is somehow superior, it's all what you can do with the tools you have at hand. I've seen people make incredible things happen with their cell phones and I've seen folks with 15 grand worth of Leica system produce utter poo poo. People who hang up on the gear numbers and system superiority wars spend too much time behind their keyboards and not enough time behind their cameras (myself included).
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Dec 22, 2011 08:02
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whatever7 posted:m4/3 is not an ambitious system. I don't know why people invest in it. You spend 2 grand you pretty much max out the top ceiling of the system and there is no space to grow. In my case I don't even plan on spending more then 2 grand so it's all good. I'm torn between the Sony NEX-5N and the Panasonic DMC-GX1. Sony's lack of fast primes, as well as pancake lenses is really making me lean towards the Panasonic. I understand the benefit of the Sony's larger sensor but isn't that benefit offset by the lack of fast primes? I'm looking to keep the whole package as compact as possible so it's a least somewhat pocketable.
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Dec 22, 2011 08:23
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krackmonkey posted:DxO scores don't hang in galleries or get magazine covers. Some of the best photos I've ever seen bear no reflection whatsoever on the DxO marks or megapickle count of the tool that took them. This isn't some math where you add up the numbers and the higher result is somehow superior, it's all what you can do with the tools you have at hand. Welp, time to sell all my poo poo and just shoot with my ipad camera. People shouldn't buy oly because the company is run by enron-level jerks who are probably going to get away with it because Japan. I hope that company burns to the ground.
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Dec 22, 2011 08:27
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whatever7 posted:m4/3 is not an ambitious system. I don't know why people invest in it. Because it is a tool that offers a considerable treaty of size and image quality and it managed to raise the bar considerably for what small cameras can do with regards to flexibility and quality. Sony and Fuji may be the driving forces of the mirrorless market moving forward (for good reasons outside of just sensor size), but to act like micro 4/3rds doesn't have good cameras and good glass out there is silly. Ambition shouldn't dwell on gear, it should reserved for actual photography.
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Dec 22, 2011 08:28
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I'm looking at m4/3 because to me it's the perfect middle ground between compacts and DSLR's. DSLR is too bulky for me, and compacts aren't flexible enough. Granted, there are other mirrorless systems like Sony's offerings but as far as my ambitions go, it's a perfect compromise. Not everyone aims to invest 5K+ or whatever in their gear but just want a decent camera with a couple of decent lenses.
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Dec 22, 2011 09:39
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Rated PG-34 posted:People shouldn't buy oly because the company is run by enron-level jerks who are probably going to get away with it because Japan. I hope that company burns to the ground. Despite all their recent crap they have a pretty good history of innovation that makes them an important part of the industry. Just off the top of my head, and in the digital era alone, they were first with in body stabilisation, first live view screen on a DSLR, first ulstrasonic dust reduction (which really works, I have never once had to clean an Oly sensor), and, well, first ever EVIL camera. Their "test scores" might not match up to the big boys but who caaaaaares.
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Dec 22, 2011 13:10
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krackmonkey posted:DxO scores don't hang in galleries or get magazine covers. Some of the best photos I've ever seen bear no reflection whatsoever on the DxO marks or megapickle count of the tool that took them. This isn't some math where you add up the numbers and the higher result is somehow superior, it's all what you can do with the tools you have at hand. Wasn't the original point of accepting the m4/3 compromise in image quality the small size factor? If the nikon is both smaller and with better dynamic range and lower noise, um...
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Dec 22, 2011 13:27
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What are you getting at there? Are you talking about the 1 line?
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Dec 22, 2011 13:58
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I don't think there's much of a size advantage any more. The Pen E-PM1 body is roughly the same size as the NEX 5N body. With kit zoom lenses, the NEX 5N is actually smaller because the Pen kit lens is stupidly long when in actual use. When you see photos of the Pen line of cameras, the kit lens looks small because they took the photo with the lens in the retracted, non-functional position.
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Dec 22, 2011 16:20
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Alright guys. I will summarize my 2X vs. 1.5X mirrorless systems argument in these points. I think these are my main points to argue against the m43 system. The other points are not that important. For example, I am not going to argue which one can be used to make great photos becasue you can make great photo with any gear. This thread exist for people to discuss the hardware and the ecosystems. * Not counting the Nikon 1 systems, IMO Panasonic sensors are the weakest. My main problem is that I think the color reproduction is the least realistic compare to the others. I personality don't care about pixel count or even dynamic range. High ISO I do care. * The initial saving you make from the m43 system doesn't reflect the picture IQ sacrifice you make. If the m43 system is consistantly 15-20% cheaper than the competing APS systems then I have no problem with buying into m43. The mid and high end m43 lenses are overpriced. Plus Olympus has a bad habit of ripping off the early adapters. If and when Panasonic release the new 12-35mm 2.8 next year and its let's say under $800 from Adorama then I will re-evaluate the m43 system cost. * Lastly and most importantly. the 1.5X sensor is an industry standard, its much easier to adapte non-NEX gear to use on a NEX body. The backward and forward competibility is very friendly. For example, I have a Tokina 11-16 in Nikon mount. I think its the best ultra wide zoom in the APS land, period. It's very easy for me to adapte it to a APS mirrorless system. Now you may not have any APS lens when you start out your EVIL system, but you may eventually grow out of it and want more. The whole industry, specially the 3rd party ones has been making lenses optimize for the APS format in the last 10+ years. Being able to use the whole APS image circle make your money go a lot further. Plus, Sony has been making APS sensor for Nikon since forever. Any new sensor technology these 2 companies have will triggle down to a NEX body. The 5n sensor is a prime example of this R&D synergy. Not only does it have good high ISO, it also has microlens to correct corner CA. Leica rangefinder lenses, including the cheaper Voigtlandar ones work great on it. As for weakness. NEX does have the weakness of not having any pancake (I will just go ahead and ignore the 16mm). But then again the NX system has pancakes.
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Dec 22, 2011 17:15
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HPL posted:I don't think there's much of a size advantage any more. The Pen E-PM1 body is roughly the same size as the NEX 5N body. With kit zoom lenses, the NEX 5N is actually smaller because the Pen kit lens is stupidly long when in actual use. When you see photos of the Pen line of cameras, the kit lens looks small because they took the photo with the lens in the retracted, non-functional position. True, but IMHO what matters is size in bag, not size in hand when it comes to portability. Fake edit: I'm singing the praises of m4/3 but tbh I'm not decided on Sony or oly myself.
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Dec 22, 2011 18:18
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I think a strong argument for at least one m4/3 system is the strong video capabilities of the GH2. Although not a great stills camera, anyone shooting video should consider the Panasonic because of it's class smashing resolution, the downscaling versus line skipping that reduces aliasing and moire and the availability of hacks to enahle high bitrate (up to 176 Mbit/s i frame only capture). The dynamic range and high ISO performance could be better but for video it is excellent. I went with the NEX-5N since I cared more about lens choice and portability but it was a tough choice.
Yuns fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Dec 22, 2011 |
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Dec 22, 2011 18:35
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spankmeister posted:True, but IMHO what matters is size in bag, not size in hand when it comes to portability. But there's very little size difference in stored configuration between the NEX and Pen cameras so that's largely a wash. The NEX kit lens is larger, but the body is thinner so again, there's very little or no advantage with the Pen system. I think the Pen E-PM1 is a great camera for someone who wants more than a P&S but doesn't care about the latest greatest DSLR stuff because it's roughly $200-$300 cheaper than the E-PL3 or E-P3. The downside is that it looks like you're waving a pogo stick around when you're using it because of the lens size relative to the body. I think a smart move by Olympus would be to bundle up the E-PM1 with the 17mm f/2.8 for $400. It would be the modern day digital equivalent of the Olympus Stylus Epic. They'd sell tons because the price would be just barely in the "what the heck" range where people can throw down that kind of money on a whim so lots of people would buy them as pocket or backup cameras. Olympus can't compete purely on body size alone anymore. Sony is slow with the pancakes. Olympus should rock the primes hard while they still can. HPL fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Dec 22, 2011 |
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Dec 22, 2011 18:44
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Yuns posted:I think a strong argument for at least one m4/3 system is the strong video capabilities of the GH2. Although not a great stills camera, anyone shooting video should consider the Panasonic because of it's class smashing resolution, the downscaling versus line skipping that reduces aliasing and moire and the availability of hacks to enahle high bitrate (up to 176 Mbit/s i frame only capture). The dynamic range and high ISO performance could be better but for video it is excellent. I went with the NEX-5N since I cared more about lens choice and portability but it was a tough choice. I love my GH2 for video work, don't know why it doesn't get brought up more in the DSLR video thread.
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Dec 23, 2011 00:28
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Personally, I was just about to buy a micro 4/3 camera (loved the idea, but didn't like the implementation so held off for a long time) when the NEX was announced, and happily went with that, even though I kinda hate Sony. I've been really happy with it, but my main reason for getting an EVIL was having a digital platform to shoot old rangefinder (and now Pen) glass on, that does decent in low light. The 2x crop would mean a lot of my lenses wouldn't be terribly useful, and I was never impressed with even the web-size shots I saw of the m4/3 cameras at ISO 1600. I do agree that the selection of native-mount lenses for the NEX is pretty lamentable (they're working on it, but it'll probably be at least a year or two before they start catching up to m4/3), and I wish to hell Sony would have included in-body stabilization. Still, I'm overall very happy with it.
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Dec 23, 2011 02:09
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I figure the NEX sensor is a stop or two better than the m43 ones so the lack of IS is lamentable but tolerable.
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Dec 23, 2011 03:02
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So I put my money where my mouth is and bought a NEX 5N. Good lord, I think we've reached the lower limit of practical camera size. I like how the grip of the body is just barely beefy enough to be comfortable plus it gives the fingers something to curl around. I put it in the bag that I normally use to carry my DSLR. The normally snug bag looked cavernous with the NEX in it. I'm not a fan of how Sony has put the settings in big long lists as opposed to breaking them down into sub-sections.
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Dec 23, 2011 05:55
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Man_of_Teflon posted:I love my GH2 for video work, don't know why it doesn't get brought up more in the DSLR video thread. I as well have it and really enjoy it for video. The amount that you can improve a great shot high bit rate clip amazes me. What weirds me out about it is the potential for use with high iso mixed with really high bit rate. In some cases I think it could render better quality images with hacked video if you extracted a frame at high iso with high bitrate than as a photo (except less resolution--good enough for web). I went from owning a Nikon D7000 to the GH2 which does have a noticeable reduction in quality for stills however it really does not matter to me. I mainly use photos for web for work or for reference for illustrations. Using the D700 for video was pretty awkward. One thing I have not tried is mounting CCTV lenses on the GH2 and using crop mode. I would find it entertaining, but do not know if the color production on them would be passable. It could be fun for 50$.
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Dec 23, 2011 16:08
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Man_of_Teflon posted:I love my GH2 for video work, don't know why it doesn't get brought up more in the DSLR video thread. Because it's not a DSLR 
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Dec 23, 2011 16:11
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So I have been thinking about getting a nex 7. Anybody here have one and how do you like it?
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Dec 24, 2011 01:19
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Took the 5N out for a walk today. It's a nice, smooth-operating camera. I miss having a viewfinder, but the flip-out screen is nice for low-angle shots and the camera body is designed well so that the thumb is positioned well for hitting the shutter button when shooting TLR-style. The shutter speed on this thing is unbelievable. I'm used to a Canon 40D which is no slouch at roughly 6.3fps, but the 5N is a speed demon by comparison. Bracketing shots is easy because the camera takes the three shots before you can even blink. The user interface is probably the biggest stumbling block so far, what with going through so many menus for everything, but I think once I get a little more familiar with it and learn to customize the camera the best I can, it'll get better. I can't seem to find a way to assign a button to change the drive mode. Any other NEX owners out there that mighy have any insight on that?
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Dec 24, 2011 01:54
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keyframe posted:So I have been thinking about getting a nex 7. Anybody here have one and how do you like it? They're only just starting to make it into people's hands, as the production delays pushed back the ship dates. I was (and still am) really interested in getting one as a big fan of my NEX-3, but waiting to see how Fuji's mirrorless interchangeable announcement pans out early next year.
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Dec 24, 2011 01:58
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Pompous Rhombus posted:I was (and still am) really interested in getting one as a big fan of my NEX-3, but waiting to see how Fuji's mirrorless interchangeable announcement pans out early next year. The thing is that even if Fuji does release a good camera, it'll be expensive out of the gate, you probably won't be able to get one for months before the supply settles out and the lens selection will be minimal at best, especially since the third party adapter makers won't have had a chance to establish themselves yet. Plus you have to take into consideration that the firmware won't be mature until a while after the initial release so in total you'll probably be looking at a year or so until it's to the point where it's a dead lock purchase. EDIT: Aw crap, I just ran a raw file from the 5N through DxO Optics and the resulting TIFF file is 111MB. HPL fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Dec 24, 2011 |
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Dec 24, 2011 02:11
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HPL posted:I can't seem to find a way to assign a button to change the drive mode. Any other NEX owners out there that mighy have any insight on that? Press left on the wheel.
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Dec 24, 2011 03:00
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HPL posted:The thing is that even if Fuji does release a good camera, it'll be expensive out of the gate, you probably won't be able to get one for months before the supply settles out and the lens selection will be minimal at best, especially since the third party adapter makers won't have had a chance to establish themselves yet. Plus you have to take into consideration that the firmware won't be mature until a while after the initial release so in total you'll probably be looking at a year or so until it's to the point where it's a dead lock purchase. If Fuji can keep the mirrorless body price cost to X100 I would be in like flint. The Fuji camera can justify the higher cost with better viewfinder, better color and lower pixel. I don't expect the price of N7 drop to reasonable level until fall 2012, due to the Thailand flood.
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Dec 24, 2011 03:09
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I think the NEX-7 is priced pretty reasonably for the amount of camera you get. I mean, I'd be happy if it was cheaper, but I don't think it's outrageous.
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Dec 24, 2011 03:20
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Beastruction posted:Press left on the wheel. Holy gently caress, I'm stupid.
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Dec 24, 2011 03:22
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Pompous Rhombus posted:I think the NEX-7 is priced pretty reasonably for the amount of camera you get. I mean, I'd be happy if it was cheaper, but I don't think it's outrageous. I am talking about the 2K+ real world price, not the listed price.
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Dec 24, 2011 03:58
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I met someone recently who mentioned that he was one of the few first Canadians to get a hold of the nex7 and he even got a discount on it. I was impressed and jealous.
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Dec 24, 2011 07:08
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whatever7 posted:I am talking about the 2K+ real world price, not the listed price. Jesus is that what they are selling it for on the street? Isn't the list price like 1200$?
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Dec 24, 2011 08:30
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Pompous Rhombus posted:They're only just starting to make it into people's hands, as the production delays pushed back the ship dates. I wanted to empty quote this so hard. When I am in the area, I go into the Sony shop and touch the NEX-7's they have on display. I recently got a little extra cash leading up to Xmas and was thinking about trading my NEX-3 and getting one, but decided against it because of the above quote. Good thing too, because I hadn't read the 1/27/12 release date in the store. I still thought it was released on 11/11/11
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Dec 24, 2011 09:32
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keyframe posted:Jesus is that what they are selling it for on the street? Isn't the list price like 1200$? It will go up stay there for a few months once the pre-Thailand flood batch run out. China is the one of the first countries to sell it, you have to buy the e24 bundle. Its about 2700 USD from the official distributor.
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Dec 24, 2011 13:04
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The inflated prices are ebay and other gougers. Keep a close eye on B&H and Adorama and order from them as soon as they get it in stock if you want it for MSRP. Also sonyalpharumors says Sony has greenlighted a NEX like camera with a full frame sensor, a hybrid alpha mount that also takes e mount lenses, and a global shutter. It is not a NEX but not DSLR.
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Dec 24, 2011 15:47
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Yuns posted:Also sonyalpharumors says Sony has greenlighted a NEX like camera with a full frame sensor, a hybrid alpha mount that also takes e mount lenses There are so many things wrong with that.
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Dec 24, 2011 17:53
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Beastruction posted:There are so many things wrong with that. It's been vaguely hinted at for a while now on SAR. I don't really get how it's supposed to take NEX lenses and Alpha natively given the different register distances, unless it comes bundled with that adapter or something. I'm certainly interested, but given how far off it likely is, I'd buy a Fuji/NEX-7 and use that for the better part of a year, and then sell it and buy the full-frame offering if it looked compelling/affordable. I think it'd be huge if they were able to keep it under $2000.
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Dec 25, 2011 01:34
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