theclaw posted:

China dumping tens or hundreds of billions of dollars into pointless white elephants instead of more effective weapons systems isn't scary at all.

Space Gopher posted:

On the other hand, the American reaction (oh god, they're building up one old-rear end Soviet surplus carrier, we have to commission a new class of superdupercarriers at prices even grover might describe as "a bit excessive") is frightening as poo poo.

LavistaSays posted:

On AAS's, phanatics post is true only in todays phase of low level conflict. "never" is a strong word and in a larger scale conflict, who is to say what will be at stake and how we will value lives of service men. Today losing any warship is crazy to even think about, but what will tomorrows war bring us? I also never implied the AAS would be fighting alone, just that it is valued less then a CVN would be.

Throatwarbler posted:

India has an actual carrier air arm that has been used to great effect in multiple wars against a major American ally.

NecessaryEvil posted:

That's sad. My dad was a pilot back in the 80s.

Phanatic posted:

How on earth is that the American reaction? The USN had been planning a new class of carriers since the late 90s, and started funding the CVN-21 program in 2001. It's for three full carriers. You think the Varyag purchase drove that?

Space Gopher posted:

No, but I think that it's going to be used to protect it from any serious cuts no matter how dire the budget situation gets, and to drive very expensive modernization work on both the existing fleet and new vessels.

gohuskies posted:

Harvard trainers doing an exhibition

Phanatic posted:

Another shot of the B-52 doing a flyby of the USS Ranger. The guys on the island reportedly called them after they requested permission for a flyby, B-52 crew said "look down":

Nebakenezzer posted:

This is not just a marine thing; the Navy with all it's carrier groups appears to be dreaming of fighting the Japanese Imperial fleet again.

priznat posted:

One of the missions I've heard mentioned for the possible Canadian amphibious ships (either licensing the Mistral design or building our own) is disaster relief missions like in Haiti after the earthquake.

I don't know if this is a real valid reason to build them, but it's a sell tactic to the public anyway.

Phanatic posted:

If all you're doing is beating up on a third-world nation with no capability to fight back, no navy to speak up, no credible air defense network, no submarines, and no air force worth a drat, you can park yourself right offshore and use helicopters.

Interestingly enough, this is what the U.K. and France both started doing by the end of OOD, because the lack of credible threats meant they could use rotary winged assets to get the most effective precise CAS to the rebels.

[quote="Phanatic"]
A pilot can screw up in a conventional airplane, be 100 feet of the ground with no lift.

Phanatic posted:

There is no, repeat zero, chance that we would attempt to put a few marine battalions on a beach in the face of a credible ASM threat without at least one CVBG in support. None. In a world in which 18 American KIA *in a successful mission* results in a withdrawal from the theater, that is simply not going to happen, and a 'phib with 1000 guys on board is in no way "expendable" in this political reality; the loss of as many troops in a single missile strike as were lost in years of combat in Iraq would an abject, unmitigated political disaster. Even at al Faw in 2003, where there was no ASM threat, there were about half a dozen frigates for NGFS, a Tico for air defense, and, oh yeah, the Constellation, with a bunch of Tomcats and Hornets.

theclaw posted:

China dumping tens or hundreds of billions of dollars into pointless white elephants instead of more effective weapons systems isn't scary at all.

Phanatic posted:

This is starting to remind me of all the arguments about why we should bring the Iowas back as NGFS ships.

Phanatic posted:

I also think that every dime China spends on carriers is a dime it's not spending on submarines, so I hope they spend more money on carriers.

Armyman25 posted:

From my understanding, that's also the same B-52 pilot who later killed himself and his crew trying to loop the aircraft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJb08ZzejAA

gohuskies posted:

Found some good pictures of some planes doing low-level flying, thought I'd post them. There are plenty of crazy acrobatics teams that do low-level flying, I think it's more impressive when it's done not as part of a show but as a part of combat or getting the job done. There are a few in here of guys getting buzzed or exhibitions but most are in the line of duty.



Junkers JU-52 Transport planes in early 1942 flying supplies into the Demjansk pocket.



P-47 attacking a flak tower.



Blenheim lining up the shot on Japanese shipping off Akyab



B-24 bombing the Ploesti refinery



Japanese Betties on a torpedo run off Guadalcanal



P-47 strafing a truck full of ammo



P-47 hit the ground on a strafing run, made it 150 miles home



B-17 in an exhibition



Same pilot in a B-17, pulling out of a exhibition dive. He made out it out of this one, he later died attempting this same dive again



Greek F-4 Phantom almost hits a tree




Harvard trainer buzzing some guys on a beach



Argentine A-4 Skyhawk making a strafing run on HMS Broadsword during the Falklands



B-52 doing a fly-by on CV Ranger during the Gulf War



Harvard trainers doing an exhibition



Avro Lancaster with three engines feathered

iyaayas01 posted:

To add to what Cyrano said, all of which I agree with, just one or two aircraft carriers (and the ability to actually employ them, which is the whole point of the training gained from the Shi Lang/Varyag) completely changes the discussion in China's backyard, as far as Taiwan, the Spratlys, interaction with Japan, and a whole host of other issues. That alone is a pretty big loving deal, seeing as how the East/Southeast/South Asian region is probably the one that will be the most geopolitically important to the U.S. over the next few decades.

Throatwarbler posted:

Regardless of what Jane's Fighting Ships thinks, it's pretty unlikely to me that the ship will be named Shi Lang, because generally speaking the Chinese do not name ships after people. No Chinese warship, communist, nationalist or imperial, has ever been named after a person (maybe with one exception).

iyaayas01 posted:

The USN's current ASW capability is right above its mine warfare capability, which isn't saying much.

slidebite posted:

Meh. It's not the 70s anymore. I too genuinely fear a "jack of all trades master of none" issue, but the F16 has proven to be a pretty capable AC even for roles it was never intended for when it was designed. I would hope being designed as multirole from the getgo, it'll do it pretty well. Maybe that's wishful thinking on my part though.

While I agree the F18 was probably discarded as an option waaaay too early, I am not sure buying 2 fleets of aircraft would have been much smarter or even be politically possible in the future. If we don't do it now, it isn't going to happen... especially when a center/left government gets back into power, which they will.

I can see it now, circa 2028:

Air Force: "We should start preliminary planing to replace or at least compliment our fleet of CF188E/Fs in the coming years as we originally planned in 2011."

Defense Minister de jour: "But we just ordered them 16 years ago! Everything else we've bought since the 60s has lasted us almost 30 years!"

iyaayas01 posted:

This man speaks the truth again. The USN's current ASW capability is right above its mine warfare capability, which isn't saying much.

MA-Horus posted:

Realistically whatever we order will most likely be Canada's last manned fighter.

quote:

UCAVs will take over within the next 30 years, and Superhornets can easily fill that gap.

Suicide Watch posted:

UCAV will not be a good idea. Imagine if Iran hacks and hijacks our entire fleet when theyre en route to strike?

slidebite posted:

I found a thing on ebay
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/1958-Avro-Ar...=item20c01b2a26

Bondafide CF-105 Ejection Seat

The mandatory conspiracy theory doesn't make much sense but it would be an interesting story to find out how it got there. My guess is that it did involve the TSR.2 somehow.

quote:

In the lighter moments of World War II, the Spitfire was used in an unorthodox role: bringing beer kegs to the men in Normandy.

During the war, the Heneger and Constable brewery donated free beer to the troops. After D-Day, supplying the invasion troops in Normandy with vital supplies was already a challenge. Obviously, there was no room in the logistics chain for such luxuries as beer or other types of refreshments. Some men, often called “sourcers”, were able to get wine or other niceties “from the land” or rather from the locals. RAF Spitfire pilots came up with an even better idea.

The Spitfire Mk IX was an evolved version of the Spitfire, with pylons under the wings for bombs or tanks. It was discovered that the bomb pylons could also be modified to carry beer kegs. According to pictures that can be found, various sizes of kegs were used. Whether the kegs could be jettisoned in case of emergency is unknown. If the Spitfire flew high enough, the cold air at altitude would even refresh the beer, making it ready for consumption upon arrival.

A variation of this was a long range fuel tank modified to carry beer instead of fuel. The modification even received the official designation Mod. XXX. Propaganda services were quick to pick up on this, which probably explains the “official” designation

iyaayas01 posted:

grover posted:

Yes, that's it, ekronoplan aircraft carrier about 13:00 in, just look at the motherfucker:








Not much of a runway, but then, you don't really need a runway when your airfield is already flying above your aircrafts' stall speed!

thesurlyspringKAA posted:

Why didnt these just explode at altitude from the pressure?

Ygolonac posted:

It's unlikely that the Spitfire Beerwagon climbed high enough to run into pressurisation issues. The whole "cold enough to chill at altitude" bit doesn't matter as much - I expect that just cruising along in IFR (I Follow Roads) conditions would cool down a keg just from the airflow.

Propagandalf posted:

In the summer in clear weather, you don't get below freezing point till about 10k feet. So if they cruise at 7k-8K, it'll get cold enough. 9K is where you need an oxygen mask for extended periods of time. Go over 10k ft without a mask and you'll pass out in 3-5 minutes.

Propagandalf posted:

In the summer in clear weather, you don't get below freezing point till about 10k feet. So if they cruise at 7k-8K, it'll get cold enough. 9K is where you need an oxygen mask for extended periods of time. Go over 10k ft without a mask and you'll pass out in 3-5 minutes.

Propagandalf posted:

9K usually won't kill you, but after 10-15 minutes you'll start feeling like poo poo. Red/black vision, spotty vision, tunnel vision, slow focusing, diminished reaction time, compromised manual dexterity, numbness in the fingers. It's a lot like being drunk. You really don't want that poo poo at 500mph.

5 minutes at 10k MSL freespace in average weather conditions is about the 'oh poo poo brain damage' point, but it varies based on air pressure and terrain. When you're up on a mountain, you're at lower atmospheric pressure than sea level, but higher atmospheric pressure (thus more concentrated oxygen) than at equivalent altitude in freespace. Air has to push on things that resist to have pressure, when those things are higher in altitude, air pressure goes up correspondingly. Think of it as atmospheric surface tension. This is why you can get people climbing Everest without oxygen or by taking supplemental oxygen every few minutes instead of being permanently hooked up to a tank like fighter pilots.

If you hike up a mountain over the course of a few hours, your body adapts to the pressure and oxygen levels and you won't get life threatening symptoms till even higher. The physical activity helps you adapt over time, since you're using oxygen at a higher rate your body reacts faster to changes. Andeans chew coca leaves to fight off altitude sickness, since it's a mild stimulant it counters a lot of the sluggishness and increases your heart rate- delivering less oxygen but more often, without physical exertion to increase oxygen use rate.

Propagandalf posted:

9K usually won't kill you, but after 10-15 minutes you'll start feeling like poo poo. Red/black vision, spotty vision, tunnel vision, slow focusing, diminished reaction time, compromised manual dexterity, numbness in the fingers.

5 minutes at 10k MSL freespace in average weather conditions is about the 'oh poo poo brain damage' point, but it varies based on air pressure and terrain.