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Cichlidae
Aug 12, 2005

ME LOVE
MAKE RED LIGHT


Dr. Infant, MD

Wolfy posted:

Also consider that even if we were sure some of our older overpasses were going to crumble, we wouldn't have the money to fix it. Somehow the right wing has successfully convinced people that infrastructure improvements are associated with lovely union employees and their lovely pensions. There's no support for the massive investment we so desperately need.

We'd find the money pretty quickly if something major broke. As horrible as it sounds, it'll take a major disaster to make people realize we need to fund infrastructure.

SPEAKING OF MAJOR DISASTERS, I got the State's report on the October blizzard this year and the damage it caused. Here are some highlights.





The Report posted:

This event appears to have represented the ideal combination of seven different factors (any one of which
taken alone occurs frequently in October) that have only come together once in 361 years to produce a perfect
storm for the destruction of trees and powerlines. The following seven factors resulted in the unprecedented
snowfall and resulting damage:
1. High pressure located in Northern New England, with cold air advection into Southern New England just as
the storm arrived, prevented warmer air from being pulled into the storm from warmer water offshore;
2. Temperatures remained within a few degrees of 32 F during the storm which allowed snow to adhere to
objects without melting and falling to the ground;
3. The long duration of moderate to heavy snow lasting over 12 hours without interruption;
4. Light winds less than 15 mph during the accumulation process;
5. Nearly full foliage on most trees;
6. Saturated soils as a result of T.S. Irene and the remnants of T.S. Lee (which may have delayed the seasonal
dropping of leaves) which resulted in many trees being uprooted;
7. Heavy overgrowth of trees resulting from the absence of a major hurricane for nearly 60 years.
Since the record of storms in Connecticut shows no storms that equal this event in the past 361 years the estimated
return frequency of this event is assumed to be greater than 361 years. Further research using statistical analysis is
recommended to more precisely define the return frequency.

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NightGyr
Mar 7, 2005
I � Unicode
I got onto the cross Bronx today, straight into bumper-to-bumper traffic, and the variable message sign helpfully warned me "nyc gridlock alert day today, use mass transit".

1. How are things like gridlock alerts decided? Or is that every day on the cross Bronx?

2. Do signs actually make a difference, or is it more of a perception issue, like with signs announcing the arrival of the next train or bus?

Volmarias
Dec 31, 2002

EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...
There's a powered road sign near my home that says "Distracted Driving Awareness Month". The irony is delicious.

Cichlidae
Aug 12, 2005

ME LOVE
MAKE RED LIGHT


Dr. Infant, MD

NightGyr posted:

1. How are things like gridlock alerts decided? Or is that every day on the cross Bronx?

It's pretty easy to tell, usually, if you're in the control center watching cameras. If you wanted definite criteria, you could go with delay time, density, or length of queue. I'm not sure what NYC does.

NightGyr posted:

2. Do signs actually make a difference, or is it more of a perception issue, like with signs announcing the arrival of the next train or bus?

A little of both. It helps more, of course, when the sign is in advance of the delay. I've seen a significant percentage of people divert when I put up a delay advisory.

Volmarias posted:

There's a powered road sign near my home that says "Distracted Driving Awareness Month". The irony is delicious.

Looks like you're more aware now! :P

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

THis is a stupid question but no amount of googlin' or reading 100+ meg traffic handbooks will tell me how thick and how far apart double yellow lines should be. I'm sick at home and unable to just run out and measure some my self. I'm guessing about 5" thick and maybe 1' apart ? Is there a specific standard?

less than three
Aug 9, 2007



Fallen Rib

Baronjutter posted:

THis is a stupid question but no amount of googlin' or reading 100+ meg traffic handbooks will tell me how thick and how far apart double yellow lines should be. I'm sick at home and unable to just run out and measure some my self. I'm guessing about 5" thick and maybe 1' apart ? Is there a specific standard?

Based on page 172 in Canada it's 100mm (3.93")

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

So .625mm in N scale, uhg that's thin! Looks like I'm going to need a new paint pen. But drat it I will have fully realistic roads!!

**EARTH SHATTERING UPDATE**
My yellow gel pen is .6mm I'm GOLD

Now I just need to figure out which streets need double yellow and which need single yellow. They're pretty much all just downtown 2 lane streets with street parking. I'm guessing single yellow is fine for that?

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Dec 22, 2011

Cichlidae
Aug 12, 2005

ME LOVE
MAKE RED LIGHT


Dr. Infant, MD

Baronjutter posted:

So .625mm in N scale, uhg that's thin! Looks like I'm going to need a new paint pen. But drat it I will have fully realistic roads!!

**EARTH SHATTERING UPDATE**
My yellow gel pen is .6mm I'm GOLD

Now I just need to figure out which streets need double yellow and which need single yellow. They're pretty much all just downtown 2 lane streets with street parking. I'm guessing single yellow is fine for that?

Ours are 4" wide, with a 4" gap, so the same as Canada's. And single yellow line is outlawed in the latest MUTCD, so use double everywhere.

Edit: Unless you have passing zones, a raised island, or a two-way left turn lane.

Cichlidae fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Dec 22, 2011

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


Cichlidae posted:

We'd find the money pretty quickly if something major broke. As horrible as it sounds, it'll take a major disaster to make people realize we need to fund infrastructure.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Cichlidae posted:

Ours are 4" wide, with a 4" gap, so the same as Canada's. And single yellow line is outlawed in the latest MUTCD, so use double everywhere.

Edit: Unless you have passing zones, a raised island, or a two-way left turn lane.

Single yellow seems to be what 90% of the street around here have. Either no line, single yellow, or when there's 4+ lanes double yellow. Why are they outlawing them? Single yellow = you can pass if safe double yellow = DON'T TREAD ON ME. How will they show lines you can pass on? Dashed yellow?

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Dec 22, 2011

Cichlidae
Aug 12, 2005

ME LOVE
MAKE RED LIGHT


Dr. Infant, MD

Baronjutter posted:

Single yellow seems to be what 90% of the street around here have. Either no line, single yellow, or when there's 4+ lanes double yellow. Why are they outlawing them? Single yellow = you can pass if safe double yellow = DON'T TREAD ON ME. How will they show lines you can pass on? Dashed yellow?

They have either:

Solid yellow on one side, dashed yellow on the other: passing is allowed in one direction.

Dashed yellow single line: passing is allowed in both directions.

Single yellow continuous lines are no longer allowed, unless there's an island to the left. Towns who do that will be liable for accidents and may miss out on federal funding.

Volmarias
Dec 31, 2002

EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...

Baronjutter posted:

Single yellow seems to be what 90% of the street around here have. Either no line, single yellow, or when there's 4+ lanes double yellow. Why are they outlawing them? Single yellow = you can pass if safe double yellow = DON'T TREAD ON ME. How will they show lines you can pass on? Dashed yellow?

I've never seen a single yellow, at least not that I can remember.

If you're drawing yellow lines, it seems to be double lines, always. If the line on your side is dashed, you can pass. If it's solid, you can't pass.

So, it's possible to have dash-dash, dash-solid, solid-dash, or solid-solid.

I've got my own question, however! I've noticed the traffic cameras put up around highways, and I'm curious if the police ever ask to watch them, or ask you to watch out for certain cars, or have them hooked up to image recognition software to just auto-scan the license plates or what?

lavaca
Jun 11, 2010
British Columbia has a lot of single yellow lines (sometimes even on highways) so I guess the Canadians haven't outlawed them yet. I think it's just a way to indicate that a street is designated as an arterial without giving the illusion that it's a major road. Seattle uses dashed lines do to that.

Cichlidae
Aug 12, 2005

ME LOVE
MAKE RED LIGHT


Dr. Infant, MD

Volmarias posted:

I've got my own question, however! I've noticed the traffic cameras put up around highways, and I'm curious if the police ever ask to watch them, or ask you to watch out for certain cars, or have them hooked up to image recognition software to just auto-scan the license plates or what?

Yes, they certainly do. As a rule, we don't use them for enforcement unless someone's doing something that severely endangers the motoring public. For example, when there's a police chase in progress, we'll track the vehicle because there's a good chance it will cause an accident. Same goes for a wrong-way driver. We definitely won't zoom in far enough to identify people or license plates.

The police can see the cameras, though, just like any member of the public. They often request live feeds. What they see, though, is just what we see. They have no control over the cameras and they certainly can't give out tickets based on something they notice there.

Chaos Motor
Aug 29, 2003

by vyelkin

Wolfy posted:

Somehow the right wing has successfully convinced people that infrastructure improvements are associated with lovely union employees and their lovely pensions. There's no support for the massive investment we so desperately need.

Honestly, can you blame them? Think about the road work you've seen. Sixty guys standing around and ten working. I support more investment in infrastructure, absolutely - but while the public perception is wasted labor, that's not going to happen, and Unions insisting on twelve man crews for a two man job doesn't help the situation. People don't know the source of the problem, so they blame the most visible representation of the problem - laborers assumed to be Union, standing around on the job site.

PS I love those "Union" stickers that say "DO NOT PLACE ON IMPORT" inside the letters, stuck to a Ford built in Mexico, while a Toyota built in Ohio is "not allowed" the sticker.

Chaos Motor fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Dec 22, 2011

vanity slug
Jul 20, 2010

Today I found out that there's no grace period in Barcelona when a trafic light switches to red. It's really instantaneously green on the sides.

That was some fun biking.

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

by Smythe
Aren't most traffic cameras too low res to properly identify license plates even if you did zoom all the way in?

Cichlidae
Aug 12, 2005

ME LOVE
MAKE RED LIGHT


Dr. Infant, MD

Install Gentoo posted:

Aren't most traffic cameras too low res to properly identify license plates even if you did zoom all the way in?

The ones we used in Rhode Island weren't good enough to read plates. They had excellent optical zoom, but lousy resolution and were highly compressed.

smackfu
Jun 7, 2004

Driving on several highways in CT lately (like 84 in Waterbury), I've noticed faint rough thin white lines spaced maybe a foot apart, parallel to the direction of traffic. Seems to be on all lanes too.

Ring a bell? Maybe the result of some kind of survey truck or something?

Bathroom Surprise
Feb 15, 2005

Pretreating the road for ice/snow

GWBBQ
Jan 2, 2005


smackfu posted:

Driving on several highways in CT lately (like 84 in Waterbury), I've noticed faint rough thin white lines spaced maybe a foot apart, parallel to the direction of traffic. Seems to be on all lanes too.

Ring a bell? Maybe the result of some kind of survey truck or something?
7 parallel but slightly squiggly lines? That's the liquid salt solution they use now that they stopped sanding highways due to environmental impact.

smackfu
Jun 7, 2004

I'm sure that's it. Thanks.

Choadmaster
Oct 7, 2004

I don't care how snug they fit, you're nuts!
Salt doesn't have an environmental impact? I'd expect sand to be better.

Cichlidae
Aug 12, 2005

ME LOVE
MAKE RED LIGHT


Dr. Infant, MD

Choadmaster posted:

Salt doesn't have an environmental impact? I'd expect sand to be better.

Salt is used in reduced amounts in public water supply areas. We generally use CaCl2 on the road, though the extra calcium leads to problems in the water. I guess people decided that the public safety benefits of using salt vs. sand outweighed the environmental impacts.

These days, we're trying to come up with safer salt alternatives. I'm not entirely up to date on that field, but I'm sure someone here can lend a hand.

Edit: I should mention as well that sand fills up catch basins pretty quickly, whereas salt just dissolves.

Cichlidae fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Dec 23, 2011

NihilismNow
Aug 31, 2003
Last winter after the government ran out of salt some municipalities resorted to bath salts. I can't imagine that was very good for the environment though it sure smelled nice.

(they also opened a salt mine that was supposed to stay closed due to environmental effects and basically told them "Produce to the limit!", when people can't drive many things become possible)

NihilismNow fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Dec 23, 2011

Jasper Tin Neck
Nov 14, 2008


"Scientifically proven, rich and creamy."

Cichlidae posted:

These days, we're trying to come up with safer salt alternatives. I'm not entirely up to date on that field, but I'm sure someone here can lend a hand.
In addition to good old table salt or sodium chloride (NaCl) you have calcium chloride (CaCl2) which depresses the freezing point of water further than NaCl does. However, because of the higher chlorine content it's also a worse groundwater contaminant than NaCl and pure poison for reinforced concrete and steel structures. It also costs about 7 times the price of normal salt. It's possible to use sodium formate (HCOONa) in areas where groundwater contamination is a risk, but it's not very common since it's about 20 times more expensive than normal road salt.

Calcium chloride is also very hygroscopic i.e. it's very good at drawing moisture from it's surroundings. So good, in fact, that it can gather enough humidity to dissolve itself. This is very useful in binding dust on gravel roads.

Cichlidae
Aug 12, 2005

ME LOVE
MAKE RED LIGHT


Dr. Infant, MD

Jasper Tin Neck posted:

Calcium chloride is also very hygroscopic i.e. it's very good at drawing moisture from it's surroundings. So good, in fact, that it can gather enough humidity to dissolve itself. This is very useful in binding dust on gravel roads.

Ah, that explains why we use it for dust control on road projects. We tend to use water instead, though, which is bid in Megagallons. Nice.

Outcast Spy
May 7, 2007

How could you be both?
There's a new-ish I-75 ramp and adjacent continuous flow intersection in Ohio that's apparently causing problems:

The DDN article says that the traffic through the interchange is at 85% of 2035 projections and the continuous flow intersection is "malfunctioning." Here's the map:

http://g.co/maps/g4nwv

The satellite imagery is out of date and it doesn't show that there is a traffic light between the interstate ramps and the Austin/741 intersection, and another just north of the the Austin/741 intersection, since that area is becoming a shopping center.

The news has never reported exactly how the continuous flow intersection is malfunctioning, just that they're going to try to adjust it somehow. I mostly drove through it from the south, turning right onto Austin. Not very momentous. I do remember that when traveling east on Austin to turn right onto 741, there is only one right-turn lane and it backs up pretty bad, blocking the right-hand through lane.

I've been wondering how they're going to fix it since most of the businesses that are moving in to the shopping center aren't even there yet, and traffic will probably increase when they arrive.

Tots
Sep 3, 2007

:frogout:
I'm road tripping right now and am coming up on a 2 to 1 lane merge due to.constriction. Driver just said that traffic will move faster if two lanes are utilized until the merge point. I say the sooner everyone merges the faster the traffic will move. Who's right?

Dominus Vobiscum
Sep 2, 2004

Our motives are multiple, our desires complex.
Fallen Rib

Tots posted:

I'm road tripping right now and am coming up on a 2 to 1 lane merge due to.constriction. Driver just said that traffic will move faster if two lanes are utilized until the merge point. I say the sooner everyone merges the faster the traffic will move. Who's right?

The driver is right. Zipper merging is more efficient. If there's no congestion, it doesn't matter. However, if everyone is merging before the merge point and there is congestion, then you run into the problem of wasted space on one lane, people running up to the merge point and then getting stuck or trying to edge into the lineup, and a greater difference in speeds between the two lanes.

SneezeOfTheDecade
Feb 6, 2011

gettin' covid all
over your posts

Tots posted:

I'm road tripping right now and am coming up on a 2 to 1 lane merge due to.constriction. Driver just said that traffic will move faster if two lanes are utilized until the merge point. I say the sooner everyone merges the faster the traffic will move. Who's right?

As far as my understanding goes:

* For an individual car, he's right;
* For traffic overall, you're right.

That is: traffic overall will move faster if everyone merges as soon as possible, since most of the movement delay is due to letting people near the merge point join the main traffic flow.

However, an individual car can leapfrog the line by staying in the closing lane until the last possible moment. Doing this will almost always put you in a position in traffic ahead of where you would have been had you merged early, and since you will have traversed the intervening distance more quickly, you will ultimately move more quickly if you drive as far as you can in the closing lane before moving.

It's sort of a tragedy of the anticommons: each driver's right and desire to travel individually as quickly as possible slows down traffic on the whole. And sadly, most drivers aren't thinking about traffic as a whole when they're driving; they're thinking about how to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible.

Dominus Vobiscum posted:

The driver is right. Zipper merging is more efficient. If there's no congestion, it doesn't matter. However, if everyone is merging before the merge point and there is congestion, then you run into the problem of wasted space on one lane, people running up to the merge point and then getting stuck or trying to edge into the lineup, and a greater difference in speeds between the two lanes.

The problem here is that zipper merging is a Platonic ideal. In actual practice, you run into the same problem that I mentioned above - the individual driver wants to get from A to B as quickly as possible, which means that cars in the continuous lane are reluctant to let cars in the merging lane merge. Zipper merging works wonderfully if everybody is on board - but in practice, almost nobody ever actually is.

SneezeOfTheDecade fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Dec 27, 2011

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


In proper zipper merging, there isn't one continuous lane. There are two continuous lanes.

Zipper merging at the merge point has been proven time and time again to be the fastest way to move traffic when two lanes compress into one.

SneezeOfTheDecade
Feb 6, 2011

gettin' covid all
over your posts

KozmoNaut posted:

In proper zipper merging, there isn't one continuous lane. There are two continuous lanes.

You forgot your ":smug:".

KozmoNaut posted:

Zipper merging at the merge point has been proven time and time again to be the fastest way to move traffic when two lanes compress into one.

quote:

Zipper merging works wonderfully if everybody is on board - but in practice, almost nobody ever actually is.

You're absolutely correct that in tests and simulation, zipper merging wins every time.

In the wild, you'd be lucky to find 30% of drivers to whom "zipper merging" may as well be a Martian concept. You get drivers who refuse to let mergers in, mergers who try to slip in with the (unrelated) merger in front of them, convoys that need to merge together, people who just let everybody merge in front of them in an attempt to "clear" the merging lane...

Until most drivers know what a zipper merge is, how to execute it, and that it's effective, I maintain that it simply isn't as efficient in practice as it is in simulation.

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


I'm not trying to be smug here. In my real-world experience, no matter which lane I'm in, merging works best and fastest if both lanes are used.

By letting in one car from each lane, you avoid the sudden braking that happens when people drive really close to stop others from merging in front of them. This creates more situations where someone brakes, the guy behind him brakes a bit harder and so on, until traffic stops complete further back.

Like I said, based on my own experience, zipper merging works best as long as the ordinary driver to dickhead ratio isn't too skewed. The worst dickheads are the ones who deliberately try to block you from merging. gently caress those assholes.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Chaos Motor posted:

This is why local cops generally cannot enforce immigration issues.

Ahahahahahahaha [/Arizona]

Grand Fromage posted:



This needs to be the wallpaper for this thread.

Chaos Motor
Aug 29, 2003

by vyelkin

KozmoNaut posted:

Like I said, based on my own experience, zipper merging works best as long as the ordinary driver to dickhead ratio isn't too skewed. The worst dickheads are the ones who deliberately try to block you from merging. gently caress those assholes.

I do that, when I've witnessed the car in question zoom down an empty lane, ignoring dozens of merge openings, only to run up on the cones and try to force their way over into the merge lane by endangering others and using their vehicle as a weapon. So if you're one of those guys who'd rather be first, than merge in an orderly fashion, I'm that rear end in a top hat.

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Chaos Motor posted:

I do that, when I've witnessed the car in question zoom down an empty lane, ignoring dozens of merge openings, only to run up on the cones and try to force their way over into the merge lane by endangering others and using their vehicle as a weapon. So if you're one of those guys who'd rather be first, than merge in an orderly fashion, I'm that rear end in a top hat.

Just to clarify, those guys are dickheads as well.

I was referring to the dickheads who deliberately speed up and block you while you're in the process of matching your speed to gap so you can merge safely.

Chaos Motor
Aug 29, 2003

by vyelkin
Well those guys can burn in hell. It is incredibly frustrating when you're trying to merge or change lanes or anything and someone boxes you in, sits on your flank, or changes speed to thwart you.

GWBBQ
Jan 2, 2005


There should be some sort of license that allows people who have been evaluated and proven to be considerate drivers to call for close air support. Blocking people trying to merge? tailgating? going 45 in the passing lane? your rear end is toast.

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Cichlidae
Aug 12, 2005

ME LOVE
MAKE RED LIGHT


Dr. Infant, MD
We're delving into some game theory here. One experimental way to facilitate merging is to not have a through lane: neither lane has priority over the other.


Connecticut's alternate merging sign.

There's only limited evidence, but from what I've seen, this type of treatment results in fewer conflicts. If there's no obvious winning lane, drivers aren't tempted to cheat. I'm not sure of the legal ramifications, though, in the case of a sideswipe. Neither lane has the right-of-way, so perhaps it would depend on who was ahead.

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