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Fate doesn't control anything. It seems clear to me reading this story that Miura is trying to state that over and over but people miss that.
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Dec 17, 2011 03:20
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temple posted:Fate doesn't control anything. It seems clear to me reading this story that Miura is trying to state that over and over but people miss that. Yeah, fate turns into an empty concept when it applies to everything. Even if you are in a world where human concepts turn into real forces, you can completely remove yourself from its power simply by not believing in it.
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Dec 17, 2011 03:33
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I agree. I don't see how you look at Gut's life and say Fate guided it. In every situation where he should lose, he defies expectations. Not because he's the hero but because Guts IS pure defiance.
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Dec 17, 2011 04:24
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temple posted:I agree. Unless causality meant that he was intended to defy fate. That's the thing: if you're fated to defy fate, it doesn't loving matter what you desire. You will ultimately do what is "fated", since fate is more just temporal causality. Things happen as they have to. Choice enters in, but only because your choice whatever it is will be the "fated" one.
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Dec 17, 2011 05:44
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Well that's self contradictory. Either Miura doesn't know what fate means or he is discrediting it.
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Dec 17, 2011 12:47
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Zorak posted:Unless causality meant that he was intended to defy fate. I think this applies: http://oglaf.com/sooth/
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Dec 17, 2011 13:53
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temple posted:Well that's self contradictory. Yes? Guts was born from a corpse - he was never supposed to even exist, yet he was instrumental in "priming" Griffith for the fated Eclipse. After the Eclipse he is virtually an extra-dimensional being, yet continues to impact reality. Skull Knight compares him to a fish jumping to escape the river of causality, the implication being that the outline of the fish's airborne trajectory and the rough time and place of its inevitable re-entry is determined by its movements within the waters of fate.
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Dec 17, 2011 17:46
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So...does fate have any causal power? Like, if we were to look back on the events of WW2 for instance, and say "fate caused it", are we just ascribing an empty concept ontop of a series of events? Because I can look back on these events and understand them without ever needing to refer to fate for, say, the Nazis decision to invite the USSR. To bring it a bit closer to Berserk talk, let's say Hitler 'resided outside of fate.' So WW2 is now a fated story with one actor outside of it. What does that change? If you do accept that Hitler lies outside of Fate's action, all of the events of Hitler's life are exactly the same as if Hitler resided inside fate's sphere of influence. I know this is pretty esoteric, but I honestly find this stuff fascinating.
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Dec 17, 2011 20:44
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Nebakenezzer posted:To bring it a bit closer to Berserk talk, let's say Hitler 'resided outside of fate.' So WW2 is now a fated story with one actor outside of it. What does that change? If you do accept that Hitler lies outside of Fate's action, all of the events of Hitler's life are exactly the same as if Hitler resided inside fate's sphere of influence. That's pretty much how I look at the events of Berserk so far. Skull Knight is fairly unfettered wrt: fate, whuch allowed him to... play a pivotal role in the advent of Fantasia. Which would have happened anyway, one way or another. It seems that any outside action upon anything within the flow of causality is subject to some degree of predetermination, simply because everyone except a handful of actors is subject to a common subconscious. Assuming the Idea of Evil is not completely apocryphal, it is completely circular - both indirect product and and indirect producer of everything within Berserk's causality. EDIT: Fate is a Thing in Berserk because causality itself (Idea) appears to have agency, though it most likely does not. Things happen, and are fated to happen because they do happen. Are there any examples of anything not going according to fate in any meaningful way in Berserk? Apologies if this doesn't make much sense, I am way too tired for this LordMune fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Dec 17, 2011 |
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Dec 17, 2011 21:41
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LordMune posted:Yes? A thing to remember of the "born of the corpse" thing is that that's metaphorical and that people say "you're a non-person", not that he's literally a non-person and born literally of some undead thing. His mother died while she was pregnant and he managed to survive against "all odds". That's really it.
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Dec 17, 2011 22:01
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Zorak posted:A thing to remember of the "born of the corpse" thing is that that's metaphorical and that people say "you're a non-person", not that he's literally a non-person and born literally of some undead thing. His mother died while she was pregnant and he managed to survive against "all odds". That's really it. Yes, that's quite right. But it also establishes and illustrates Guts as being "outside" of the currents of fate, and his escape from the Eclipse adds to that. Guts' birth is probably a bit more important (on several thematic levels) than people have traditionally given it credit for, since Miura explicitly re-visits the "tree, death and birth" motif for Fantasia. EDIT: Though that he "survived against all odds" despite his mother being dead is a potentially deceptive understatement. She didn't die in childbirth and she didn't pass away while pregnant - she was hanged. To me that seems thematically significant, but the sheer brutality of it could just be a case of early Berserk grittygrimdark-ery. EDIT: oh my god I am so sorry for all this sperging LordMune fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Dec 17, 2011 |
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Dec 17, 2011 23:30
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I think people are tripping over the allegorical nature of the story with Miura's intentions. Sure Guts is a non-person which implies his freedom from fate. But fate is just as much as a villain as anything else in the story. Fate is what screwed everyone over until they met Griffin and Griffin was a screwed out his destiny as well until he met the God Hand. But just as Guts can kill "immortal" demons, pre and post Eclipse, I think Guts is going to destroy fate. So, fate is established as something that Miura is challenging, not confirming. So when people go fate this and fate that, you are buying into what the God Hand said. But just look at Guts and you will see its all bullshit.
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Dec 18, 2011 00:56
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temple posted:So when people go fate this and fate that, you are buying into what the God Hand said. But just look at Guts and you will see its all bullshit. When you put it like that, the whole thing sounds like it's all about the power of belief, true or false. Meh, maybe I'm overthinking this. Maybe fate is just whatever the will of Godhand is, who is using Griffith to change the nature of the world so they have the same sort of power in the real world as they do in the spirit world.
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Dec 18, 2011 20:03
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I think the idea is that things happen as they "should," but constantly have to work AROUND Guts (who hates how things "should" be), who can jump in and out of it (like a fish jumping out of water), with there being the very real possibility that somewhere along the way, he can change the entire course of the river as he becomes a bigger and bigger "fish" in the story. He started off as one really strong kid that just survived despite the odds, but has been gaining more and more in power to the point where he can actually challenge Zod form 2, etc., all due to his stubborness and rage. If he grows to the point where he can challenge the Godhand, then he gets to the point where he can completely break everything, as opposed to now, where it just kind of works around him.
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Dec 20, 2011 22:29
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How about we just split it halfway and say that Guts' fate is to be the baddest motherfucker ever to walk the ground of Midland, and that all else will come as a result of that?
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Dec 20, 2011 23:14
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How about Guts is so badass, fate had to go back to its desk and re-write some things.
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Dec 20, 2011 23:39
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Darko posted:I think the idea is that things happen as they "should," but constantly have to work AROUND Guts (who hates how things "should" be), who can jump in and out of it (like a fish jumping out of water), with there being the very real possibility that somewhere along the way, he can change the entire course of the river as he becomes a bigger and bigger "fish" in the story. edit: And using the word causality makes people put on their philosopher hats and say "Ahh ~Causality!~" But I think Skull Knight and Miura is using causality in the sense of a flow of events that are out of our control. Caska didn't ask to be born female, Griffith didn't want the kid to die in his battle, Guts didn't mean to kill Gambino; but poo poo happens that we can't control. So life is a stream of events that we see deeper meaning in but sometimes a person comes along that lets us, for a little, see it for what it is. temple fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Dec 21, 2011 |
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Dec 21, 2011 00:25
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Erm, I think you mean "Casualty".
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Dec 21, 2011 06:58
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Soulcleaver posted:Erm, I think you mean "Casualty". You appear to have been a casualty of causality.
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Dec 21, 2011 07:15
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Christ, I'm sure I just posted this a couple of pages ago but it's really quite simple (to me at least): Humans have a collective consciousness that is manifested as the Idea of Evil. The Idea of Evil is Fate/God/Destiny. Let's not say causality because I think that's a good term to reserve to say what must happen (since nothing should exist outside of cause and effect). In the real world we only have what I'm calling causality - there is a set of events that will certainly occur. There is no actual thing as probability, it's just a concept we've made up to help us predict things (unless you want to get into quantum physics, in which case it is still arguable). What I mean by this is when you flip a coin you say there's a 50/50 chance but if you somehow go back in time and recreate the event exactly it will always be the same. There was always a "1/0 chance" you just never have enough information to predict it perfectly. In the Berserk world this causality of course still exists but there's another layer on top of it which is Fate/The Idea of Evil. It shapes the world based on the feelings of the collective human consciousness. The reason it is called the Idea of Evil is because it suggests that the basal essence of humans is negative but it also says to Griffith that it's power can be used for good. Now Guts isn't going against causality since that's impossible but he is going against Fate. The way he's going against it is debatable, I like to think it's by him being mentally strong enough that he single-handedly warps the Idea of Evil, since it's based on human emotions and he's human, actively changing Fate. (Basically this:) Ka0 posted:How about Guts is so badass, fate had to go back to its desk and re-write some things. It's also possible though that when he was branded he became separated from the Idea of Evil, or perhaps he was just an anomaly and was always separate due to his birth (or something). Whatever the case read chapter 83 if you haven't already because it sheds light on a lot of things (like why Femto is such a dick). http://eatmanga.com/index.php/Manga-Scan/Berserk/Berserk-083/001.jpg?action=big&size=original
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Dec 21, 2011 08:47
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Okay so I started a re-read of Berserk since this thread got me to check it out again. Holy loving poo poo this manga is  when it's not piddling around doing retarded poo poo with boats and mermaids.Seriously, I loving love how most of the world is relatively sane and yet Guts is constantly like "NOPE, CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER HOW GIANT MY TESTICLES ARE"
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Dec 21, 2011 19:00
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I didn't really like the boat fight with the pirates either. Mermaids kind of came out of nowhere but this is a place with elf kingdoms so it's not so out of place. Edit: Btw is Fade to Black the perfect Berserk song? Ulio fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Dec 22, 2011 |
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Dec 21, 2011 20:51
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Ulio posted:Edit: Btw is Fade to Black the perfect Berserk song? I think the only appropriate soundtrack for berserk is the most epic thing you know, and it's definitely a personal thing. This worked pretty well for me.
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Dec 22, 2011 16:06
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Unacknowledged posted:I think the only appropriate soundtrack for berserk is the most epic thing you know, and it's definitely a personal thing. This worked pretty well for me. Any Inon Zur is a good call. May I suggest anything off of Icewind Dale 2? Ulio posted:Edit: Btw is Fade to Black the perfect Berserk song? I prefer this.
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Dec 22, 2011 20:09
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Nothing else matters cover sounds a bit too up beat but the Inon Zur stuff is boss. Weird that Origins had better music than DA2 despite having the same composer. The anime itself has some good tracks, Gatts theme especially.
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Dec 22, 2011 22:24
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Everything about Slayer (this link could be Griffiths theme, read the lyrics) screams Berserk to me.
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Dec 22, 2011 23:01
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZFcawd5Q_Y Forces or nothing.
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Dec 22, 2011 23:16
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Soulcleaver posted:Erm, I think you mean "Casualty". "Causality" = fate, destiny, or more literally the concept of "one thing causes another." "Casualty" = in modern English, a victim who died. It used to mean chance or fortune, as for instance here, but that's archaic.  EDIT: Unless you're making a "Guts kills stuff dead!" joke, in which case I'm a dumbass.
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Dec 22, 2011 23:33
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How about this: http://tubedubber.com/#22lRpLAwY04:iZFcawd5Q_Y:0:100:0:67:1
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Dec 23, 2011 00:22
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A.S.H. posted:Everything about Slayer (this link could be Griffiths theme, read the lyrics) screams Berserk to me. The lyrics do seem straight out of Griffith's imprisonment. The high audio quality Forces is definitely awesome. In that movie trailer Charlotte doesn't look like herself.
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Dec 23, 2011 00:37
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Ever since I saw this classic a few years back  , Berserk has always been like that to me.
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Dec 23, 2011 04:21
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:"Causality" = fate, destiny, or more literally the concept of "one thing causes another."
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Dec 23, 2011 09:50
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Check out these actual film clips from the movie. Anyone who speaks Japanese will also get to hear some insight about what the voice actors think about their characters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8KM9y89OfY&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MwqJ5s3MdEY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2FRIpn3Nqk&feature=related
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Dec 23, 2011 17:33
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Ccs posted:Check out these actual film clips from the movie. Anyone who speaks Japanese will also get to hear some insight about what the voice actors think about their characters. ...Holy gently caress the animation looks great.  Can't believe I'm getting this excited over a loving anime movie, but god drat I can't wait for this poo poo to be out.
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Dec 24, 2011 01:26
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Interesting article about how they're integrating the CG into the final product. Seems like they're doing a really good job. From what Google translate tells me they're spending time trying to synch the frame rate of the CG to traditional, and compositing the two when the CG doesn't look right. http://cgworld.jp/feature/making/berserk01.html
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Dec 28, 2011 23:05
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I hope they put some of the first couple volumes in the movies. The fight against the Count is crazy badass and ends with one of my favorite moments in the entire series, so it'd be a shame if the movies completely ignored that.
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Dec 28, 2011 23:28
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WickedIcon posted:I hope they put some of the first couple volumes in the movies. The fight against the Count is crazy badass and ends with one of my favorite moments in the entire series, so it'd be a shame if the movies completely ignored that. From what's been out there, it doesn't look like the fight with the Count or the Snake Baron dude will be in it, which is unfortunate but given that the movies are apparently focusing squarely on the Golden Age, it isn't too bad. I'm hoping they still keep in Guts childhood, as I'd imagine it would only take a few minutes out of the movie to get through. Would be kind of weird if they moved it to another film.
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Dec 29, 2011 05:24
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You are all missing the point that what will save the day of the current arc is I don't think Berserk is intended to have more than a veneer of philosophy. Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Dec 30, 2011 |
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Dec 29, 2011 07:35
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Laphroaig posted:You are all missing the point that what will save the day of the current arc is I agree. People will read what they want into it. I see it as a great story, great characters, with the bonus of a mythology that I can sink my teeth into. And not to derail, but I am a fan of your user name/user pic combo. Nice!
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Dec 30, 2011 08:29
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Awesome Welles posted:From what's been out there, it doesn't look like the fight with the Count or the Snake Baron dude will be in it, which is unfortunate but given that the movies are apparently focusing squarely on the Golden Age, it isn't too bad. I think we can safely assume the rear end rape wont be in the movie at least! I think it's kind of a shame the "Black Swordsman" stuff probably wont be animated again. I'm HOPING what will maybe happen is that they'll basically do the series chronologically and therefore eventually incorporate The Count into the story where it would go in the timeline, in the movies after the Golden Age ones. Unfortunately though, that would be weird, as it works at its best when it's a complete mystery who Femto and the Godhand are and why Guts is intent on killing that man. The other alternative would be a separate OVA, but I dunno if that ever happens as an accompaniment to movies, rather than TV series. I do hope we can see that iconic scene of Guts forcing himself up the stairs animated someday.
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