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thrawn527 posted:My impression was that they always planned on making more than one Death Star, and having the first one blown up didn't change that. And to be fair, they did learn from the first one, didn't they? This one wouldn't have the same exhaust port issue, which is why the Rebels had to attack it now, while it was still under construction. Tarkin's monologue at the beginning of ANH clearly shows that fear of the DS was to be the trump card for Imperial control. Multiple stations would not be necessary. The point of the second DS was to replace it. The point of revealing its location to the Rebels was threefold. 1. Get them to commit their entire fleet to destroy it and finally engage/destroy them. 2. Turn Luke as he gave in to the Dark Side out if fear and anger over #1. 3. Make sure many Bothans died to bring the Rebels this information.
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Jan 9, 2012 19:57
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Makes you think how ROTJ could have been a lot better if Lucas actually cared for Star Wars and instead of making a cheesy marketing grab with the Ewoks put a race of normally sized humanoid aliens in their place instead.
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Jan 9, 2012 20:01
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thrawn527 posted:My impression was that they always planned on making more than one Death Star, and having the first one blown up didn't change that. And to be fair, they did learn from the first one, didn't they? This one wouldn't have the same exhaust port issue, which is why the Rebels had to attack it now, while it was still under construction. I mean from more of a story-telling point of view. Much as I love ROTJ (my favorite of the series) I just don't see why it was necessary for the movie. As far as I can tell, it was put there either because Lucas was committed to having the movie end roughly the same was as his original drafts of The Star Wars (where the rebel fleet brings down the DS with the help of some primitive fuzzy aliens), or because you can't have Star Wars without a space battle. It just strikes me as sloppy writing. SeanBeansShako posted:Makes you think how ROTJ could have been a lot better if Lucas actually cared for Star Wars and instead of making a cheesy marketing grab with the Ewoks put a race of normally sized humanoid aliens in their place instead. Hey, I like the Ewoks! 
NGL fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jan 9, 2012 |
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Jan 9, 2012 20:02
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SeanBeansShako posted:Makes you think how ROTJ could have been a lot better if Lucas actually cared for Star Wars and instead of making a cheesy marketing grab with the Ewoks put a race of normally sized humanoid aliens in their place instead. I'd be happier if he had just stayed with his original choice for Jedi, the Wookiees. I don't remember why he changed it anyway (Other than marketability, I would assume)
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Jan 9, 2012 20:22
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Locutus of Bald posted:I'd be happier if he had just stayed with his original choice for Jedi, the Wookiees. I don't remember why he changed it anyway (Other than marketability, I would assume) The official story is that the race was supposed to be technologically primitive, but since Chewbacca has been shown to be technologically proficient (e.g. repairing C-3PO, piloting the Falcon), it implies that Wookiees are technologically advanced. Another reason is that Lucas knew plenty of little people were available, but it's much harder to find a group of incredibly tall folks. (In ROTS, there were only a handful of Wookiee actors, as I recall.)
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Jan 9, 2012 20:32
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Locutus of Bald posted:I'd be happier if he had just stayed with his original choice for Jedi, the Wookiees. I don't remember why he changed it anyway (Other than marketability, I would assume) Well, the original choice for Jedi was a race called the Ewaks, and the moon was a moon surrounding the capital planet, where two Death Stars were. But that script was so crazy and different than what we got, it's hard to say it would have been better. Obi-Wan-ghost-Force-field and lava pit final battle just sounds too stupid to be filmed. But I've gone into all that before.
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Jan 9, 2012 20:47
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Someone in SA once did a pretty in-depth overview or summary of the first script SW stories. It was so loving strange. I think that was you thrawn527? VVV Yeah that is it. Thanks for reposting. euphronius fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Jan 9, 2012 |
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Jan 9, 2012 20:49
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euphronius posted:Someone in SA once did a pretty in-depth overview or summary of the first script SW stories. It was so loving strange. I think that was you thrawn527? I wrote one for ROTJ, if that's what you mean, not the other movies. Here's what I posted on that (almost one year ago to the day, actually): Okay, this is probably going to be long, but here we go. (I'm paraphrasing most of this from The Secret History of Star Wars, so if you've read this, there's nothing new here. If you haven't read it...do it, it's great.) The vast majority of the movie takes place on Had Abbadon, the capital of the Galactic Empire. (One assumes this was still the name of the capital, even if unspoken, until Zahn named it Coruscant in Heir to the Empire) Which, admittedly was described as a planet covered in cities and enshrouded in smog, so it had that which stayed the same come prequel time. There's two Death Stars under construction, and they're orbiting the green moon above Had Abbadon. At the beginning of the movie, Leia and a group of Rebel troops, undercover as Imperial troops, sneak into the moon. The plan is to assault the Imperial capital and destroy the Empire. Darth Vader and Jerjerrod then land on the capital planet and meet with the Emperor. Here we see the Emperor for the first time. In order to reach him, they have to go to his grand palace and then travel many miles underground. His throne is so far underground it sits atop a lake of lava. The Emperor tells Vader his powers are weak and that Luke has grown in power and must be destroyed. When Vader disagrees, he's choked. He says that Luke is the Emperor's to destroy, and orders Vader away. He then tells Jerjerrod to watch Vader, and that he doesn't actually plan to destroy Luke, but make him replace Vader. This whole thing sets up a different Vader than we see in Jedi. Vader is not turned back at the end, he plans for most of the movie to have Luke kill the Emperor and rule with him. Lucas starts humanizing Vader much earlier in the movie. Then we go to Tatooine where Luke is dreaming of Vader, Ben, and Yoda. In the dream, he yells at Ben for not telling him the truth, and Yoda says that soon he'll join Ben (you know, as a dead guy), and that he'll be stronger then and able to help Luke. Then we get Luke and Lando rescuing Han from Jabba, without Leia, but similar other than that. They go and join up with the Rebel Fleet, while on the way Luke has a vision of Ben that reveals the whole Leia sister thing. Meanwhile, Leia, on the green moon, meets the "Ewaks", who are pretty much the same as the Ewoks. (The Wookiees may have been originally planned, but by the time they get to the script stage, it's short furry merchandising machines.) Luke, who at first doesn't think he's ready to fight Vader, has a vision that Leia is in trouble and that the attack on Had Abbadon will fail, so he decides he has to help. They're ambushed, and everyone else escapes, while Luke surrenders. Vader gets to Luke before Jerjerrod can, and tries to tempt him with the dark side. This whole scene is similar to the scene in Jedi, until Jerjerrod enters, yells at Vader, and Vader kills him. Then he takes Luke to see the Emperor. Then the Ewaks and Leia blow up the communications disk on Had Abbadon, and the Rebel fleet shows up to start the battle. Then things start getting loving weird. As Vader is escorting Luke to the Emperor, Obi Wan's ghost appears. He says he's there to save Vader, and that if he turns to the good side, he'll pass through the Netherworld when he dies and Obi Wan will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force so that he will retain his identity. Vader just refuses and takes Luke to the Emperor's lava lair. They talk about Luke and the Dark Side, Luke refuses, then Obi Wan shows up again, followed by Yoda, and the Emperor freaks the gently caress out. He orders Vader to destory Luke, and Luke and Vader fight, while jumping from rock to rock over a river of lava. (Yeah, Lucas really wanted to work this in at some point.) Luke cuts off Vader's arm, but refuses to kill him. When the Emperor tries to shoot lightning bolts at him, he's protected by a Force Ghost shield. Whenever the lightning comes at him, the images of Obi Wan and Yoda appears. But eventually Luke falters, Vader grabs the Emperor, and they both fall into the lake of lava. The movie would end with Luke telling Leia she's his sister, and then Obi Wan appears in flesh and blood, not as a ghost, followed by Yoda, and then finally Annikin (that was the spelling the script) Skywalker. Apparently killing the Emperor brought those three back to life. Or something. The basic plot is still the same, and while I'm sure some parts had to be changed due to budget (the Imperial Capital, lake of lava) Vader is seen struggling with his issues throughout the entire script. Also, Jerjerrod is portrayed as someone to be feared. Even Vader is cautious around him. The opening scene we know in Jedi is in the script, except it's Jerjerrod talking to Vader, with Vader bowing before him. Vader then talks about how upset he is that the Emperor refuses to talk to him, with Jerjerrod brushes off with a "Well, he's really busy, you know?" The scene ends with Vader saying to himself, "Luke, beware, you are the Emperor's prey now." The second draft goes even more into this, with Jerjerrod taking Luke before the Emperor. When Vader finds out he breaks his neck with his bare hands, and then goes to the Emperor. Luke meanwhile is on a lava island, when Obi Wan shows up...in the flesh, not as a ghost. A lot of other crap happens the same, then Luke and Vader fight, with Obi Wan and the Emperor just kind of watching. The Emperor eventually shoots lightning at Obi Wan, but Luke (and Force Ghost Yoda) block it. Then Vader and the Emperor do their tumble into the lava. Obi Wan then says, "It's in Yoda's hands now." Presumably he's talking about saving Vader's soul, because at the end, Yoda and Annikin show up, very much not dead. Some parts of this version I like. For example, when Obi Wan said he would become more powerful than Vader could possibly imagine, in this version that actually means something. But most of this was changed in meetings with Kasdan, Marquand, and Kazahjian into the movie we got. Really, I just find this stuff interesting because you can slowly see the movie we saw emerge from what was kind of a retarded script, full of one-ups. (Oh yeah? Now there's 2 Death Stars!)
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Jan 9, 2012 20:53
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Of course nothing about Han, Jabba and the Saarlac.
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Jan 9, 2012 21:01
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euphronius posted:Of course nothing about Han, Jabba and the Saarlac. In the first script, Leia wasn't with them, but everything else is pretty much the same as we got in the movie.
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Jan 9, 2012 21:03
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NGL posted:Hey, I like the Ewoks! They can stay and be the tiny trading race that gets the poo poo kicked out of them by the Empire for not going away.
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Jan 9, 2012 21:18
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So I saw that there are three novels based on The Old Republic, one of them about Revan. It looks interesting because Revan is the most important person to that setting. Has anyone read it? Is it any good? How about the other novels?
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Jan 9, 2012 22:24
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BigRed0427 posted:So I saw that there are three novels based on The Old Republic, one of them about Revan. It looks interesting because Revan is the most important person to that setting. Has anyone read it? Is it any good? How about the other novels? Still haven't been able to get my hands on Revan, but. All of them tie into the The Old Republic MMO.Fatal Alliance is the first one and actually a really decent book. It has a lot more control over the characters and they are well done. Really well worth the read. Deceived on the other hand is a different matter. While its a fun read and well written the characters go from being your run of the mill Jedi, to drat near Force Unleashed video game levels. It does future one of the main villains from ToR heavily so if you have any interest in the game its worth a pick up. Not the worst of the EU or the best but I think they are slightly above average.
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Jan 9, 2012 22:38
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BigRed0427 posted:So I saw that there are three novels based on The Old Republic, one of them about Revan. It looks interesting because Revan is the most important person to that setting. Has anyone read it? Is it any good? How about the other novels? The first one sucks rear end. Deceived is tolerable, but there is a really unbelievably lovely scene regarding a jedi free falling from orbit after their ship got blown up and using the force to land softly, and I haven't read Revan past the first chapter, but from what I hear it is not very good (though it does deal with some characters from KOTOR1/2 and sets them up).
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Jan 9, 2012 22:47
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LLJKSiLk posted:The first one sucks rear end. Deceived is tolerable, but there is a really unbelievably lovely scene regarding a jedi free falling from orbit after their ship got blown up and using the force to land softly, and I haven't read Revan past the first chapter, but from what I hear it is not very good (though it does deal with some characters from KOTOR1/2 and sets them up). Luke does this in a novel. I don't remember which one cause I read it years ago when I was a teenager, so one of the older ones. He freefalls from orbit in a meditative state and brings his X-wing gently down with him. It was when I first realised Star Wars books were lovely. Because in the book I read before that Luke is on top of a building and thinks "Its to far to jump down, even for a Jedi." And I though, dude you just floated down from orbit...someones not keeping track of what powers these guys have.
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Jan 9, 2012 22:57
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That was Courtship of Princess Leia.
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Jan 9, 2012 23:36
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arioch posted:That was Courtship of Princess Leia. I think that is one of the only ones I only read once. It was pretty bad. Though it did give us Dathomir, the Night Sisters, and other interesting back stories on Yoda and Warlord Zsing's fine mustache. I sort of enjoyed the books about Corellia wanting to be independent and the hypocrisy of the New Republic trying to force them to stay.
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Jan 9, 2012 23:51
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LLJKSiLk posted:I sort of enjoyed the books about Corellia wanting to be independent and the hypocrisy of the New Republic trying to force them to stay. One: It's more accurate to describe it as Corellia wanted all the benefits of being in the Republic without any of the responsibilities. Two: Those books were even worse than the bug orgies that preceded them.
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Jan 10, 2012 00:28
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Flagrant Abuse posted:Two things. Well, he could also be referring to the Corellian trilogy. But that has the people behind the Corellian Independence movement actually using a superweapon to blow up entire solar systems. So. (But I should remind everyone here that the same people were THEN behind the new Corellian Independence movement in the series you're referring to)
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Jan 10, 2012 01:16
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thrawn527 posted:(The Wookiees may have been originally planned, but by the time they get to the script stage, it's short furry merchandising machines.) I don't really buy the Ewok = merchandising thing. I mean as a kid I didn't like the Ewoks because they where boring teddy bears with soulless eyes (now with new soulless CG eyes!), I would have actually wanted a stuffed Wookiee. I think its more likely that the same cash got about 3 Ewok costumes for every Wookiee costume.
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Jan 10, 2012 03:52
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The Ewoks were originally more feral and vicious looking.
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Jan 10, 2012 03:55
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Jigoku San posted:I don't really buy the Ewok = merchandising thing. I mean as a kid I didn't like the Ewoks because they where boring teddy bears with soulless eyes (now with new soulless CG eyes!), I would have actually wanted a stuffed Wookiee. George Lucas' love of midgets.
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Jan 10, 2012 04:09
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 This is what happens when it actually snows in West Texas.
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Jan 10, 2012 04:47
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TOOT BOOT posted:The Ewoks were originally more feral and vicious looking. That would have been awesome. Thousands of those ripping the baddies a new hole while taking horrible losses would have underlined the sacrifice and kicked rear end. Think the arachnids VS the fortress in Starship Troopers. Also would have been believable as an example of the Emperor's arrogance as opposed to an entire military detachment going retarded in the face of a few dozen pygmy Sasquatches.
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Jan 10, 2012 05:37
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Jigoku San posted:I don't really buy the Ewok = merchandising thing. I mean as a kid I didn't like the Ewoks because they where boring teddy bears with soulless eyes (now with new soulless CG eyes!), I would have actually wanted a stuffed Wookiee. Well, I was born in 1983, and as a kid I loved the Ewoks. I even owned the Ewok village. Of course, I probably would have owned a Wookiee village too. My opinion on the Ewoks is based on the facts that I owned a ton of Ewok action figures as a kid. But that's just me.
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Jan 10, 2012 15:38
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I think I saw the Ewok movies before I even saw Star Wars. Later, I got them when they came out on DVD... and holy poo poo, are they bad.
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Jan 10, 2012 15:50
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thrawn527 posted:Well, I was born in 1983, and as a kid I loved the Ewoks. I even owned the Ewok village. Of course, I probably would have owned a Wookiee village too. I actually have two Ewok villages, one from growing up and the other when I absorbed a friend's collection. I use the other as a stand-in for Kashyyyk. Fun fact: The Ewok Village playset was slightly retooled and sold as a Sherwood Forest playset for the Robin Hood line back in 1991. And yes, the Ewok movies were pretty terrible. Except Wilford Brimley. He's awesome.
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Jan 10, 2012 15:55
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Gammatron 64 posted:I think I saw the Ewok movies before I even saw Star Wars. Yeah, the same thing happened to me. I loved at least the first one when I was a kid, then someone got me the two of them on DVD a couple of years ago, half as a joke. I was so excited when I started watching, and was amazing how quickly that faded. Holy poo poo, the spider scene in the first one, which actually scared when I was a kid, was pretty terrible. The whole thing is just terrible. I've still never watched the second one all the way through, even knowing that it stars Wilford Brimley.
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Jan 10, 2012 15:55
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thrawn527 posted:Yeah, the same thing happened to me. I loved at least the first one when I was a kid, then someone got me the two of them on DVD a couple of years ago, half as a joke. I was so excited when I started watching, and was amazing how quickly that faded. Holy poo poo, the spider scene in the first one, which actually scared when I was a kid, was pretty terrible. When's the last time you saw the Droids cartoon? Holy Christ was that terrible.
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Jan 10, 2012 15:57
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NGL posted:When's the last time you saw the Droids cartoon? Holy Christ was that terrible. Not since I was like 5. And I'm going to keep it that way, after how poorly watching the Ewok movie went.
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Jan 10, 2012 16:01
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thrawn527 posted:Not since I was like 5. And I'm going to keep it that way, after how poorly watching the Ewok movie went. A wise decision.
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Jan 10, 2012 16:12
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I never got some of the criticism of Thrawn, especially how he is some god-like know-it-all because he studies art. He is wrong in the trilogy quite often. Sometimes he gets it completely wrong (anything involving Noghri), sometimes he gets it mostly wrong but jumps to a conclusion that still makes things difficult for the protagonists. A lot of the time it's just him using shrewd observation and collected knowledge to come to a reasonable conclusion. The Bilbringi thing happened because his formerly fruitful source of information dried up at the same time the New Republic started stopped being secretive and started blasting "WE ARE GOING HERE" information. Thrawn merely assumed it was all lies and misdirection and if the NR was going to all that trouble for misdirection, they'd probably go for the biggest target. And even with the perfect trap setup, he still messed it up because he didn't account for the smugglers he pissed off (another thing he mishandled throughout the trilogy). It's even said in the last book that he wasn't infallible and they needed to stop treating him as such because that was half the problem.
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Jan 10, 2012 16:50
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NGL posted:When's the last time you saw the Droids cartoon? Holy Christ was that terrible. I have that on DVD, too. Unfortunately. I like it how they only released a couple episodes on DVD and VHS though, and didn't bother to even release the whole series. Nobody cares to see the whole thing, not even die hard Star Wars fans. I think Droids lasted one season before it got poo poo-canned. Even back in the 80's, Lucasfilm was wildly stupid. They would have made a killing if they did a show to sell action figures ala G.I. Joe or Transformers. Kids loved Star Wars, so a Saturday morning cartoon based around the exploits of Luke, Han and Leia would just make sense. I would have been all over that. Most kids would. Of course... they never did it. They made cartoons based on the Droids and Ewoks. What the gently caress? It still kinda boggles my mind that they have NEVER done a cartoon about the rebellion. Instead Lucas opts to make a SECOND Clone Wars cartoon. Lucas must really, really hate the OT. gently caress, you could probably even still get Mark Hamil to do the voice of Luke!
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Jan 10, 2012 17:04
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Gammatron 64 posted:
To be fair, the second Clone Wars show has some great moments. I've only watched the first season, but there are some golden episodes in there. I think you'd probably enjoy Rebellion , the continuation of Empire. It has "wtf" moments like every EU piece but overall I think it's pretty great for people who want more military-centric OT stuff, rather than Jedi Jedi Jedi Jedi and PT PT PT PT. Though I might be remembering through rose-glasses, when I did my speed-run through all the EU Material I was also smoking a lot of weed.
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Jan 10, 2012 17:47
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McGann posted:To be fair, the second Clone Wars show has some great moments. I've only watched the first season, but there are some golden episodes in there. Yeah, seasons 1 and 2 of The Clone Wars were pretty good. Way better than the prequels (although there were some weak points). It started to go downhill in s.3, though. There were only 5 episodes that I would consider "decent" (the 2 at the beginning with the clones and and the Savage Oppress arc, even though it's a really stupid name).
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Jan 10, 2012 17:57
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NGL posted:Yeah, seasons 1 and 2 of The Clone Wars were pretty good. Way better than the prequels (although there were some weak points). It started to go downhill in s.3, though. There were only 5 episodes that I would consider "decent" (the 2 at the beginning with the clones and and the Savage Oppress arc, even though it's a really stupid name). Well that's a bummer. I was told Season 1 was decent and it got better from there, but at that point I don't think S3 had really gotten started (besides a couple episodes). What's the general SA opinion on the Tartakovsky series? I've heard good things, but not from any sources I trust (this thread). edit: with all this Thrawn discussion, I'm sitting on the Amazon "Heir" 20th Anniversary page, wanting to order it with a Christmas gift card...but I'm held back by the nagging thought that when I re-read it (sober) I might be disappointed. poo poo.
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Jan 10, 2012 18:09
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The Tartavosky series owned, hard. So many of the episodes had memorable scenes and really fleshed out some characters. Grievous really felt like a jedi-killing badass, instead of some chump with a smokers cough. I remember at least one episode going without any dialouge and it was really cool to see that in a show designed for younger people. Mace Windu and Yoda both had great moments and anakin's fall to the dark side actually makes a little bit of sense.
VaultAggie fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jan 10, 2012 |
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Jan 10, 2012 18:19
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Usually when the Tartavosky series comes up here someone complains about how it makes the Jedi into supermen who can leap over tall buildings in a single bound and do all the spinny flippy twirly poo poo we knock the prequel trilogy for doing in its lightsaber fights, but it's a cartoon, and what's the point of doing a cartoon if you're just going to do the same things you could do in real life? At least in the Tartavosky series the hyperkinetic animesque fight scenes felt appropriate. That is to say, yes, it is awesome. Also in the second volume Anakin and Obi-Wan have more chemistry than in all the prequel movies combined. They actually feel and act like good friends, not an exasperated mentor and a whiny pupil.
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Jan 10, 2012 18:29
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I was actually just thinking about the Tartarovsky series - specifically, I was thinking about one scene in one of the earlier shorts where an ARC troop transport ship gets shot down and the clones all just stand there calmly like commuters riding the subway as their transport careens to the ground. In the very next short, we see the droids leaning away from incoming missiles - an instinctual, human-like reflex that offers them no protection whatsoever. The robots act more like people than the people do.  EDIT: Also, those cartoons introduced us all to Asajj Ventress, for whom I am as gay as one can be for a cartoon character. Pththya-lyi fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Jan 10, 2012 |
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Jan 10, 2012 18:55
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The Tartarovsky series is the only good thing of the Clone Wars in my own opinion. I just wish the DVDs weren't expensive for me  .
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Jan 10, 2012 19:39
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