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I got a general question, and it might be dumb and I dunno if it applies more to grappling than other MA's, but do you guys THINK a lot when you fight/roll? Do you actively decide on a plan and follow it through, say, on the mat consciously decide to perform a specific sweep and follow up with a specific chain of submissions? Because it has occurred to me that I never really think through my grappling, it's just something I do, and I think it might be hindering me. I've got this brain that I'm not really using for anything and it seems like kind of a waste. Today I got caught in a really stupid triangle that I could have easily gotten out of if I had just gone for the right escape, which I know well, but since I was just doing my thing instead of actually thinking it through, I instead tried stacking a dude twice my size, and you can probably imagine the results considering I have the muscle mass of a chemo patient VV Haha, if that actually goes through your mind, that's hilarious. I think my mind just goes into screen saver mode Bohemian Nights fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Jan 10, 2012 |
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Jan 10, 2012 00:18
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oh poo poo this guy is trying to punch me oh christ what do i do jab at him maybe he'll back off oh god i'm tired etc
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Jan 10, 2012 00:23
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Bohemian Nights posted:I got a general question, and it might be dumb and I dunno if it applies more to grappling than other MA's, but do you guys THINK a lot when you fight/roll? Do you actively decide on a plan and follow it through, say, on the mat consciously decide to perform a specific sweep and follow up with a specific chain of submissions? It really depends. On the ground I'm only half thinking/things are much more natural. I'll do a lot of stuff without thinking about it, but sometime I'll walk myself through the steps of an escape or ask myself questions like "ok so, this person is defending well against my guard... What can I do to force him to open up" and try stuff that come to mind. Mostly talk myself through techniques and escapes that I'm less familiar with. Standing up I'm not really natural yet, so there's a lot more thinking. But the better I get the less I think about stuff and just act so... I guess not thinking is mostly a good thing. And a lot of this but replace words like punch by triangle and arm bar and sweep. mewse posted:oh poo poo this guy is trying to punch me
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Jan 10, 2012 00:37
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KingColliwog posted:But the better I get the less I think about stuff and just act so... I guess not thinking is mostly a good thing. This is what I've been assuming, but I was more worried that it was actually a sign of complacency or taking it too lightly. However, I'm not sure when the transition to thinking about setups to being a zombie happened
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Jan 10, 2012 00:41
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Bohemian Nights posted:I got a general question, and it might be dumb and I dunno if it applies more to grappling than other MA's, but do you guys THINK a lot when you fight/roll? Do you actively decide on a plan and follow it through, say, on the mat consciously decide to perform a specific sweep and follow up with a specific chain of submissions? I only think about things when there's a break in the action. Like if I'm trapped in a guillotine, I'm thinking about what to do to escape, etc. But if I'm on top, hunting for submissions, I might have a vague tactical goal (like get to north south, or mount), but I'm really "listening" for what the opponent is giving to me to take as a submission. In guard I have a few go-to setups, like the hip-bump to triangle, so there might be a touch more thinking about when I can set that up to take advantage of that particular combo.
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Jan 10, 2012 00:56
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Bohemian Nights posted:VV Haha, if that actually goes through your mind, that's hilarious. I think my mind just goes into screen saver mode my brain doesn't form the words but that's what i'm thinking. sparring in constant terror probably isn't a good thing for me so i'm trying to do it as often as i can to try and calm down a bit
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Jan 10, 2012 01:04
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mewse posted:my brain doesn't form the words but that's what i'm thinking. sparring in constant terror probably isn't a good thing for me so i'm trying to do it as often as i can to try and calm down a bit Like he said I don't think I form the words really either, just to make sure it's clear. At most if I'm escaping and I'm not familiar with the escape I'm doing I might think "telephone, roll, stack" I don't make full sentences or anything. Slowly becoming a zombie when fighting on the ground is a nice evolution. I can't wait for the transformation to be complete. Zombie rolls are the best rolls. KingColliwog fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Jan 10, 2012 |
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Jan 10, 2012 01:12
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I'm the opposite, I used to overthink when rolling, but I've broken myself out of the habit. I learned a lot of clever tricks but didn't practise them enough for them to actually work with any level of reliability. I've tried to strip down what I know into the techniques that suit my goals best, and then practiced the smaller pool of techniques a lot more until I could execute them subconsciously. I still think when I'm rolling, but it's more about the general flow of the roll, not the techniques. So I decided my goal was to get on top and submit them from mount. Which sounds really obvious, but I was trying to do trickier stuff that I really shouldn't be bothering with until I'm purple at least. So I reduced my entire guard game to full-closed-guard sweeps only, because I have the most success with those. So I have one transition from every guard I know which leads to closed guard, and I try to get really good at those transitions, etc. Now what I do is I really actively think about where I'm trying to get to. I constantly remind myself of the path I want to take, and occasionally stop to think about why something isn't working and if maybe there's a more appropriate sweep I should try to go to. I know that if I have to actively think about a sweep it probably won't work. The only exception is if I learn something new that I think will work well in my game, I'll try that one technique again and again while rolling for a few weeks, and try to figure out why it's not working, and keep practicising it in between rolling, and repeat this until it works and I don't think about it anymore. So yeah, you want to have vagaue tactical goals in mind, and maybe you should be taking mental notes of your weaknesses, moves that failed, positions that are troubling you, but that's about the most thinking you want to be doing.
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Jan 10, 2012 01:27
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Bohemian Nights posted:Most of the time when I grapple it's very fun and playful. I try to be very fluid and roll with the momentum of whatever my opponent is doing. I've got a hierarchy in my mind of what I want to achieve: improving positions, control of their limbs, general dominance of control or pace of where the fight goes. I'll always try to get to my opponents back wherever possible as the most favorable objective (even before a possible submission attempt). That being said, most of the time I'm not really thinking of anything specific while I'm rolling. The only time this changes is when I'm in a dominant position, and I start to look for submissions. Submissions are a very mental aspect for me as I go over the small details of the steps that I've been taught. I guess I like to think of most of my grappling game as creative, flowy, and non-thinking, while my finishing game is analytic, intuitive, and at least attempting to be technical.
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Jan 10, 2012 01:32
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I don't think very much when I roll. If I'm in a position that's both static and unfamiliar i'll try to figure out what to do. Otherwise everything is reaction or at least subconscious.
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Jan 10, 2012 02:00
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I'm usually just panicking and berating myself for not knowing what to do.
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Jan 10, 2012 02:18
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I've actually been thinking a lot about the ideal fighting mindset lately, ever since realizing that I could see in people's faces (eyes mainly) when they were about to gain or lose "the zone." I believe this is tied to microexpressions caused by changes in mood. In my opinion the zone is a sort of hormonal crossfade between brain chemicals that generate an energetic, hyper-aware mood like adrenaline and testosterone, and those that generate a calm, happy mood like oxytocin, dopamine, and seratonin. I think that the mental progression towards mastery begins when we learn the body mechanics related to our martial arts of choice, then tactics for using those mechanics, then strategies (large-scale/bundled tactics), then learn to access "the zone"/"no-mind"/whatever you want to call it. I'm talking about a place where we've tuned our muscle memory to the right moves, and habitualized our neuronal paths to the right strategies, and then turned off the slow, methodical planning part of our brain and turned on our flowing, creative dancing brains. So basically the ideal mindstate is one where you're not thinking, just feeling a deep sense of (what Buddhists refer to as) awareness and compassion, and your body is acting accordingly. However, it can only be achieved through careful physical and mental conditioning to learn the "feel" of good strategy and tactics. I've been taking breakdancing classes lately to try to help myself to synchronize my fightmind and dancemind, and I feel like it's really helping my jits- I can just flow past people if they stiffen up at all, and maintain a constant swinging momentum that makes me way stronger than if I were just trying to move people by bracing against the floor and pushing or pulling them. Finally, this may seem counter-intuitive, but it also really helps to think of your opponent as a person, specifically paying attention to their good qualities and the good qualities of all humanity. You can't ever be compassionate towards a person who you see as nothing more than 'an enemy' (which is why we have such an easier time accessing 'the zone' while training with friends than when fighting randoms). E: Read Nietzsche on dance he talks about this stuff in a way that really makes sense to me. Ridleys Revenge fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Jan 10, 2012 |
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Jan 10, 2012 03:11
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Topical:Wikipedia posted:Four Stages of Competence:
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Jan 10, 2012 03:36
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2. Conscious Incompetence ^^^^ this is like my entire life?
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Jan 10, 2012 03:46
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i prefer this quote to summarize my martial arts career: "as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."
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Jan 10, 2012 03:49
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When I do randori/roll I try to focus on whatever part of my game I am working to improve. For a long time when I started it was just trying to land one of 3 throws or so that I liked. Now that those throws have changed and I have generally improved, I really think about getting my grip safely. (i.e. in right vs right, don't lead with my right hand, lead with the left) Eventually the pattern gets drilled into my mind and I don't have to actively think about what I am trying to work on as much and I can focus on different weaknesses. (i.e. Now that the basic gripping pattern is established, I'm focusing on working more ashi-waza, footsweeps, into my basic gameplay)
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Jan 10, 2012 03:50
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swmmrmanshen posted:When I do randori/roll I try to focus on whatever part of my game I am working to improve. For a long time when I started it was just trying to land one of 3 throws or so that I liked. Now that those throws have changed and I have generally improved, I really think about getting my grip safely. (i.e. in right vs right, don't lead with my right hand, lead with the left) Eventually the pattern gets drilled into my mind and I don't have to actively think about what I am trying to work on as much and I can focus on different weaknesses. (i.e. Now that the basic gripping pattern is established, I'm focusing on working more ashi-waza, footsweeps, into my basic gameplay) I think thats the best way to go tbh. I constantly try to learn/practice 50 new things every session and I absolutely get nowhere. If I ever want to improve its time to really focus on a few things at once.
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Jan 10, 2012 03:54
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Nierbo posted:I think thats the best way to go tbh. I constantly try to learn/practice 50 new things every session and I absolutely get nowhere. If I ever want to improve its time to really focus on a few things at once. It's really hard to chose though at the beggining. It's normal to work on 50 different thing at first, then you'll get good enough at 1 or 2 and work more precisely from there.
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Jan 10, 2012 04:15
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Yeah, I agree. I've been going for over a year now, I feel its about time to start to pick and choose and start getting a 'game'. I practiced seio nage religiously but I don't use it because I'm taller than most of the people so I'm wasting my time. I'm diving into osoto gari lately but the main problem is leaving my right arm behind me as I jump in and I don't point my foot inward either. I'm getting decent chest contact though.
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Jan 10, 2012 04:40
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Guilty posted:If they're getting in on your body in the middle of a kick, then either 1. it's not classic muay thai kick, 2. you're landing the kick wrong, 3. you're arm positioning is bad, or 4. you just have really short femurs. quote:(i.e. for some reason you are leaning your upper body backwards). quote:but since the kick should so naturally return to neutral, dodge/counters tend to be a little rarer or less effective. I disagree. A strong kick that doesn't land on them will overrorate you and land you a bit sideways or even with your back. Of course, you should only be committing to a super strong kick if you know you'll catch meat even if they pop back. Now, let us all bask in the glory of this kick posture: 
kimbo305 fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Jan 10, 2012 |
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Jan 10, 2012 04:41
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Doing a new post since I didn't want to commingle with kickchat above. I'm pretty nearsighted, so between that and opponents having headgear on, I can rarely read their facial expressions. Occasionally, I'll hit someone in the face and you can see that flash of anger that some guys get when they get caught. One guy does this whole body shrug of incredible disdain when I repeatedly hit him with my pussy lead leg kick (when I'm afraid to engage any closer). It's hard to describe how I can read it, but I know he's just thinking, "come on, stop hitting me with that bullshit and really put something together." It doesn't bother me at all, since I'm scoring with my limited game, but I wonder if that sort of overt expression hurts or helps when in a real match. I think it lies closer to the truth than mere showboating.
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Jan 10, 2012 04:49
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That kick posture is sexy, and this is coming from a guy who has no kickboxing/MT experience. I think this is pretty cool too http://i.imgur.com/ZawcO.jpg
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Jan 10, 2012 04:55
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Bohemian Nights posted:I got a general question, and it might be dumb and I dunno if it applies more to grappling than other MA's, but do you guys THINK a lot when you fight/roll? It depends on the level of person I'm rolling with. On the rare occasion I'm better than someone I just kind of flow and if appropriate stop the roll and point out things I see. If it's someone I know is around my level I try to relax and just go with it but have preset situations where suddenly I remember how badly I got beat last time it came up, and to think clearly and be careful. Like, I get swept from half guard with embarrassing ease so when it comes around I concentrate on not loving it up again. If I did the right thing I watched or learned a better method and have it ready to try out, if I get lazy and didn't do anything to fix the issue well it's my best guess to do something different this time. Against clearly better opponents I think constantly about things until the lights start to go out, then I listen to tips they've got.
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Jan 10, 2012 08:06
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kimbo305 posted:I think you can always sneak in a teep to the right hip, though from the guard you prescribe, the attacker can quickly scoop that to their outside. One of the counters we do in Sanshou is to commit to a sidekick to their stomach as soon as they've launched the kick. If you're unlucky, you'll catch an elbow, otherwise you'll land and be able to push off, creating distance and maybe throwing them off balance. I don't understand. Do you mean a teep to the aggressor's right hip or a teep from the defender's right hip? Because if you're teeping a left teep to defend the roundhouse, you won't land anything. If you teep before the roundhouse comes (since the rh is a pretty telegraphed move) then the aggressor doesn't even have time to set up the prescribed defense, and you're already one up. If you look at the picture, basically once he's in this position (with his arm placement a bit better, the only reason why it's down is because it's a photo shoot) the only options are either his hips aren't moving forward (unlikely) and you should rush him down, or to go for the stabilizing leg, or catch and counter quote:common enough if you're fighting on the defensive. quote:I disagree. A strong kick that doesn't land on them will overrorate you and land you a bit sideways or even with your back. Of course, you should only be committing to a super strong kick if you know you'll catch meat even if they pop back. Honestly, if you want one ingrained counter to a right kick, it's either catch and counter of your choice, or an automatic left sweep to the stabilizing leg. I like the catch and sweep or catch and right kick to the thigh. Once again, YMMV in MMA
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Jan 10, 2012 10:36
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On a scale of very difficult to incredibly difficult, how hard is it to catch a kick? I always assumed it would be almost impossible as you wouldn't be used to dropping your guard and plus they'd be pulling it back asap. V cool, thats really interesting. Thanks. Nierbo fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Jan 10, 2012 |
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Jan 10, 2012 12:33
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Nierbo posted:On a scale of very difficult to incredibly difficult, how hard is it to catch a kick? I always assumed it would be almost impossible as you wouldn't be used to dropping your guard and plus they'd be pulling it back asap. Medium difficulty to difficult. It's almost the same motion as clinch swimming or an elbow, and you need to keep it tight, plus they're kicking, so any punches they throw while kicking are going to be rather ineffective if you catch. If you use the catch movement, you can also reset your guard faster usually than they can retaliate. Or if you're worried, you can also catch with the opposing hand. so for a right kick, keep your left hand guard, and either bat with your right hand (i.e. dutch block) and hook under the heel, or (my preference), sweep the right hand under and catch from beneath. Difficulty lies mostly in how good the opposing kicker is. Also, it's actually quite difficult to pull a thai kick straight back or straight out. There's a technique to it that has to be practiced to get out of most catches (brace against the opponent, kick and pull out, or twist and pull down)
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Jan 10, 2012 13:52
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Nierbo posted:On a scale of very difficult to incredibly difficult, how hard is it to catch a kick? I always assumed it would be almost impossible as you wouldn't be used to dropping your guard and plus they'd be pulling it back asap. It's more of a timing thing than anything else. Like the other guy said, a perfect Thai kick is nigh-impossible to just brace and catch because it comes up at you at an angle. Trying to catch anything at that angle is going to leave you with a nasty bruise under the armpit or knocked unconscious. Where kick-catching works best is when you have an opponent who is tired (throwing sloppy kicks) or prefers the traditional kickboxing kick where your shin is either parallel to the ground or chopping down right before impact. In that case, I've been taught to not just brace yourself, but to roll with the kick and move with its path at the last possible second. This negates a lot of the energy and damage of the attack and gives you the opportunity to grab their leg. In addition, because you're already moving across them with their kick, it's incredibly hard for them to stay perfectly balanced. It basically puts you in the perfect position to counter, they're off balance, and you're too far away for them to hit you. If you ever grab a kick, make sure make 2-3 quick steps backwards before countering. They need to be off balance and wasting energy trying to stay up before you can effectively throw any punches or kicks in response. It's the most frustrating thing in the world to see novice kickboxers get punched a whole lot after catching a kick because they stayed in range and one of their hands was down holding the other guy's leg.
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Jan 10, 2012 14:11
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Fontoyn posted:If you ever grab a kick, make sure make 2-3 quick steps backwards before countering. Just pull the leg as hard as you can and immediately throw or push and counter at the same time. If you take a step back, they get a perfect set up for the brace and kick away I was talking about. Besides, if you take too many steps in a k1 ruleset you will get penalized for pile driving or holding and hitting. Catch and counter more than anything needs unconscious repetition, otherwise there's a lot of dumb politics that will kind of screw you. edit: I guess it's really difficult to catch and counter effectively, it's just that it's such a vital skill to learn that you are at a major disadvantage if you don't know it, so everyone drills the gently caress out of it, making it seem 'medium'. The major benefit of the catch and counter, though, is just removing an attack from the opponent. If you spend one round catching kicks, he's going to have to think really hard about when he's going to kick. Guilty fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Jan 10, 2012 |
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Jan 10, 2012 14:35
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I am not a striker but I would imagine there is also a danger of biting on a fake, dropping your hands, and taking a hard shot to the head.
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Jan 10, 2012 19:16
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Xguard86 posted:I am not a striker but I would imagine there is also a danger of biting on a fake, dropping your hands, and taking a hard shot to the head. The catch motion is literally just trapping the kick against your body. Also it's very similar to an elbow so the shoulder never really leaves the chin. So if you can fake a kick and land a hard right faster than the time it takes someone to raise their hand from approximately their nipple to their head, you deserve the win anyways. Or you can use a dutch block trap, or an under catch.
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Jan 10, 2012 20:33
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Guilty posted:If you teep before the roundhouse comes (since the rh is a pretty telegraphed move) then the aggressor doesn't even have time to set up the prescribed defense, and you're already one up. Yes, it's not that you're going through a fully up defense, but that you have a counter to the roundhouse. Guilty posted:so for a right kick, keep your left hand guard, and either bat with your right hand (i.e. dutch block) and hook under the heel, or (my preference), sweep the right hand under and catch from beneath. I find traditonal Thai guys expert at gripping the heel with just one hand. Through the glove, too, which is the impressive part. I think it's all about keeping enough weight from the leg to wedge it into your hand. Guilty posted:The catch motion is literally just trapping the kick against your body. Also it's very similar to an elbow so the shoulder never really leaves the chin. So if you can fake a kick and land a hard right faster than the time it takes someone to raise their hand from approximately their nipple to their head, you deserve the win anyways. Sanshou guys will leave their guard lower to favor the hands for two handed catches (block with left, swing under and up with the right and wedge the lower leg to your left forearm, then sweep, or elbow their thigh, or knee their support leg). While this strategy does leave you more open, a huge priority is reading kicks and adjusting your guard as attacks come. Everybody's go-to when someone keeps their guard too low is the Brazilian kick. And the counter to that is baiting for it and catching the kick high. e: we are taught to take the kick and then trap with the left arm (for rear roundhouse) only as a last resort. Those Thai guys can kick hard. Like that one I caught when sparring the Pradal Serey (Khmer kickboxing) guys a couple weeks ago.
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Jan 10, 2012 20:49
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Apologies if this has been covered, but this thread is huge. Is there a consensus on brand and the best place to buy pads and mitts? I want to get a pair of focus mitts and thai pads as cheaply as possible while still having something decent. Any recommendations?
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Jan 10, 2012 21:03
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kimbo305 posted:I find traditonal Thai guys expert at gripping the heel with just one hand. Through the glove, too, which is the impressive part. I think it's all about keeping enough weight from the leg to wedge it into your hand. kimbo305 posted:e: we are taught to take the kick and then trap with the left arm (for rear roundhouse) only as a last resort. Those Thai guys can kick hard. Like that one I caught when sparring the Pradal Serey (Khmer kickboxing) guys a couple weeks ago. Ehhh, we thais are taught to take the kick and trap with the arms every time. If you brace and roll like Fontyn said, the pain won't even make you grimace. Thai kicks are all about full damage at only one point of the leg anyways, the rest of the leg during a Thai kick doesn't hurt at all. And besides, gives a good show and psychs out the opponent  .
Guilty fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jan 10, 2012 |
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Jan 10, 2012 21:48
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Bohemian Nights posted:I got a general question, and it might be dumb and I dunno if it applies more to grappling than other MA's, but do you guys THINK a lot when you fight/roll? Late on this, not thinking too much, but still too much: "Combination - and side movement! Throw a combination THEN SIDE MOVEMENT. WHY AM I NOT MOVING. TO THE SIDE" *gets tangled on opponent* Followed with "oh god this is exhausting." Or if I'm actually tired, just: *blank* "Oh god I'm tired!" *blank* Then (and god bless every time it happens) maybe once every 100 times it's just: *blank* <- Which is when I'm usually doing pretty good, which isn't very good, but anyway for me it is.
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Jan 10, 2012 23:26
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'I swear to god, if I survive this match I will stop smoking!!!'
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Jan 10, 2012 23:27
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'And drinking them malt liquor forties!!!"
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Jan 10, 2012 23:30
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Guilty posted:The catch motion is literally just trapping the kick against your body. Also it's very similar to an elbow so the shoulder never really leaves the chin. So if you can fake a kick and land a hard right faster than the time it takes someone to raise their hand from approximately their nipple to their head, you deserve the win anyways. Well, that's a new thing I have learned today.
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Jan 10, 2012 23:30
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I learned a ton from Guilty's and kimbo's striking discussion! Hooray! Not that I'd get to try that stuff out any time soon but it's hella interesting.
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Jan 10, 2012 23:44
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Annnd today we learnt the shrimp, closed guard and an armbar from closed guard. There is so so much to learn and not so much time to practise these on a partner outside the class. How do you guys handle so much knowledge coming in? I get after a while it becomes muscle memory but at the moment it is just  and so difficult to remember while rolling. I guess if nothing else this will teach me good time management.
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Jan 11, 2012 01:02
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Antinumeric posted:Slow down. Drill technique. Roll lightly with your eyes closed (with a partner that you're comfortable with).
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Jan 11, 2012 01:11
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