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Vinterstum posted:Well, who's fault is it that there's such a *massive* difference (on average) between a fresh graduate and someone who has just one year of experience? As long as that divide is as large as it is (and it always has been large), of course graduates are going to have a really hard time getting a foot in the door when the market is going through a tough time. Who gives a poo poo whether it's private or public sector? It's just universities in general being completely unable to keep up and stay in touch with the industries (with some exceptions). Though cutting funding obviously isn't the answer. It may be a disconnect between the expectations of the degree and the expectations of the field. When I was an undergraduate I had similar conversations with the head of the program and it basically came down to the fact that the University program was in Computer Science. It was a science degree to teach you how to think in terms of Computer Science. It was not a vocation degree for how to sling Java and use Source Control. It's designed for people who want to do research in Computer Science, to go on and get their masters and PhD in said field. Could that be the disconnect you're seeing? Did you go to a program to be "Game Industry Programmer" or to be a "Computer Scientist"?
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Jan 11, 2012 17:51
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Monster w21 Faces posted:Grats to my friends at Avalanche for the official announcement of their New York studio. Gah, stupid OTHER Avalanche developer messing with my head.
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Jan 11, 2012 17:59
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Shalinor posted:I have a friend from LU, Senior Combat Designer, who's trying to find work. He's had a somewhat unlucky run of interviews with his top choices (the lead designer wasn't actually in the interview / hiring freezes / etc), so I'm seeing what other studios I can drum up for him. Id is still hiring. They just had some layoffs but that was really more about cutting under-performers. (for some reason this always gets a vitriolic reaction but cutting the bottom 5% chaff is a good thing) Btw I love your new avatar.
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Jan 11, 2012 18:08
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oswald ownenstein posted:Id is still hiring. They just had some layoffs but that was really more about cutting under-performers. (for some reason this always gets a vitriolic reaction but cutting the bottom 5% chaff is a good thing) do you work there/have friends that work there? Because that was not the impression I got from polycount's thread about it.
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Jan 11, 2012 18:13
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Shalinor posted:It's getting a bit stupid, yes. Half the studios out there, including startups, seem to have forgotten that Jr Programmers and Jr Artists do in fact exist and can be useful. Here's a perspective from a studio that LIKES hiring junior people that we can train to be badasses.. It's often not as cost effective as you'd think because of all the incidental costs of hiring somewhat regardless of their salary - medical, dental, equipment, licenses, cost of other employees' time to train and advise and review, etc. So with the glut of unemployed people with studio experience, it's a losing proposition for new grads when we can hire someone else for just a salary uptick (while all the fixed costs remain constant). Plus the outsourcing quandary you mention - right now it's incredibly cheaper for us to outsource character art to China rather than try to hire and train a ZBrush artist for instance.
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Jan 11, 2012 18:51
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icking fudiot posted:So with the glut of unemployed people with studio experience, it's a losing proposition for new grads when we can hire someone else for just a salary uptick (while all the fixed costs remain constant). Plus the outsourcing quandary you mention - right now it's incredibly cheaper for us to outsource character art to China rather than try to hire and train a ZBrush artist for instance. EDIT: VV Yes, that, precisely. Trial employment for those that fall somewhat below what you're hire as a non-Jr, which you might call an "Internship" in local university internship listings. 3-month terms, renewable, etc. It isn't a stable job with great benefits, but they're juniors - of course it isn't. You'd lose some time training them, yes, but outsourcing isn't without cost either. There's substantial benefit to direct supervision and interaction. Shalinor fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Jan 11, 2012 |
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Jan 11, 2012 19:03
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Shalinor posted:Would this still hold true if you treated Jr positions as contractors? That is, no benefits and limited term, jr level wages, and the standard "and if you work out, we'll hire you on once we promote you beyond Jr." This is why internships (temp positions, basically, not actual educational internships, generally) are so awesome. I'm leaving school with almost a year of industry experience on titles like Everquest 2 and a new, unannounced next-gen console title with Disney. They take a chance on hiring me, but I've earned $10-$15 an hour with no benefits, so I'm loving cheap. I get experience, they get cheap labor, especially if I'm good, and if I'm not, the 3-month contract ends and I go away. The internship also acts as the "trial period" if they're looking to hire permanent positions. This system is why I'm coming out of school without any need to list school projects on my resume. When I was looking for internships last spring, I went through the entire list of developers on GameDevMap and there's only a tiny tiny fraction of studios that offer them and I find that weird. It's definitely something that I will be advocating wherever I end up.
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Jan 11, 2012 19:17
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Is UI an easier field to break into? I see tons of open positions for that. I imagine it is because it is not as "glamorous" as other jobs.
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Jan 11, 2012 19:29
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Chernabog posted:Is UI an easier field to break into? I see tons of open positions for that. I imagine it is because it is not as "glamorous" as other jobs. Tools tools tools. If you want something valued but un-glamorous that's the way to go.
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Jan 11, 2012 19:47
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Shalinor posted:Would this still hold true if you treated Jr positions as contractors? That is, no benefits and limited term, jr level wages, and the standard "and if you work out, we'll hire you on once we promote you beyond Jr." Somewhat, since you still have to get them a workstation and licenses for whatever software they need, but it's definitely lessened. We've actually had trouble getting this stuff going after the move to So Cal - in North Carolina there were so many tech schools nearby we had guys lining up to do contract gigs to get their foot in the door, but out here much less so (and it's hard to sell someone on relocating themselves for contract/junior level work usually). Art has been easier to recruit for though.
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Jan 11, 2012 19:58
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Question for you hiring managers and other job-decision-making-types: How favorably or unfavorably do you view someone who doesn't currently live in the city or even the state in which you're located? I ask because I'm all the way out in Georgia, but without a lease or other permanent residence and with all my stuff already packed up, so I'm extremely mobile, willing and able to move pretty much wherever. If it is an issue, that I don't live where the jobs are (or, I'd be passed up for candidates who are more local), how can I convey that I'm way less of an investment to get moved out to the job location than most other folks in my situation?
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Jan 11, 2012 20:18
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lavhoes posted:Question for you hiring managers and other job-decision-making-types: Put it in your cover letter. That said, for the right candidate it doesn't really matter where you are. If you're junior, ya - they may not be willing to pay relocation. Hell, sometimes even if you're fairly senior. But you might be surprised.
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Jan 11, 2012 20:24
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lavhoes posted:Question for you hiring managers and other job-decision-making-types: In all my years, probably 80% of our candidates don't live anywhere near Boston and it never comes up. Don't sweat it.
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Jan 11, 2012 20:49
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oswald ownenstein posted:Tools tools tools. If you want something valued but un-glamorous that's the way to go. Are you talking about programming? I was talking about art. The other position I have seen that seems to be sought after is technical animator but that's something I don't really want to do (or know how to).
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Jan 11, 2012 20:52
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oswald ownenstein posted:Tools tools tools. If you want something valued but un-glamorous that's the way to go.
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Jan 11, 2012 20:57
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OneEightHundred posted:I actually like writing tools, but the irony is that it's hard to make any actual demo out of them. Well it's like any other software experience then, no? If you can describe in detail what your tool does and perhaps even provide a few shots of the interface (assuming you slapped together a little GUI for it) you should be good to go. Also, tools programmers are like clerics in everquest - highly sought after. If you're good it's like being a hot female irl playing a cleric - highly lusted after.
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Jan 11, 2012 21:11
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Backov posted:Put it in your cover letter. What would be a good way to phrase it? Everything I come up with sounds too desperate and pleading. Need more "I'm a great candidate because I could be moved out there in two weeks" and less "I can move! Please hire me! I'll do anything!" devilmouse posted:In all my years, probably 80% of our candidates don't live anywhere near Boston and it never comes up. Don't sweat it. This is encouraging, but from the last place I did an art test with,it seemed like being from out of town was a big deal. When I followed up with them about the art test, I mentioned I was already moving to that city anyway (g/f at the time was going to law school there), and they seemed surprised, despite me having already mentioned this in my cover letter. Then they threw my name back into the consideration pile, briefly, before going with someone already living in that city. Just to hedge my bets, I'd like to tactfully mention that I'm a loading van away from being wherever. Chernabog posted:Are you talking about programming? I was talking about art. The other position I have seen that seems to be sought after is technical animator but that's something I don't really want to do (or know how to). He probably means tools art. I did a bunch of tools art on my last project (as a Jr., I bounced around and did a lot of jobs the other artists didn't want), and it was actually a lot of fun. Figuring out ways to make the tools easier with a concise visual language was more enjoyable than I thought it'd be, and the main UI guy and I got a lot of compliments on our hard work. It could be rewarding, definitely something to check into.
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Jan 11, 2012 21:17
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oswald ownenstein posted:Well it's like any other software experience then, no? Backov posted:That said, for the right candidate it doesn't really matter where you are. If you're junior, ya - they may not be willing to pay relocation. Hell, sometimes even if you're fairly senior.
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Jan 11, 2012 21:20
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lavhoes posted:He probably means tools art. I did a bunch of tools art on my last project (as a Jr., I bounced around and did a lot of jobs the other artists didn't want), and it was actually a lot of fun. Figuring out ways to make the tools easier with a concise visual language was more enjoyable than I thought it'd be, and the main UI guy and I got a lot of compliments on our hard work. So what does that entail? Do you program the tools?
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Jan 11, 2012 21:53
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Chernabog posted:So what does that entail? Do you program the tools? Nah, just draw the buttons, icons, layout, etc. Basic design work, sometimes with a bit of flare if allowed to make the tool easier and a bit more fun to use. Staring at drab-grey screen after drab-grey screen is demoralizing, and having an attractive color-coded program made productivity go up a bit.
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Jan 11, 2012 21:55
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lavhoes posted:Nah, just draw the buttons, icons, layout, etc. Basic design work, sometimes with a bit of flare if allowed to make the tool easier and a bit more fun to use. Staring at drab-grey screen after drab-grey screen is demoralizing, and having an attractive color-coded program made productivity go up a bit. One of the bits that vastly increases productivity (speaking as someone whose custom tool gained it thanks to a lot of complaining) is context-sensitive coloration. Essentially we've got three coloration modes: data is set to default value, data is non-default but has not been edited this session, and data has been edited this session. I can open a record and instantly see 90% of the information just by what's blue and what's grey. And when I go to save the record, everything I've changed is green and I can easily review it. But yeah, give your UI designers and your tools programmers a hug or bake them cookies or give them beer or something. They deserve it - it's a thankless job and is made worse by the fact that everyone around them gets to do amazingly cool stuff and they don't.
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Jan 11, 2012 22:25
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wodin posted:One of the bits that vastly increases productivity (speaking as someone whose custom tool gained it thanks to a lot of complaining) is context-sensitive coloration. Essentially we've got three coloration modes: data is set to default value, data is non-default but has not been edited this session, and data has been edited this session. I can open a record and instantly see 90% of the information just by what's blue and what's grey. And when I go to save the record, everything I've changed is green and I can easily review it. Hahaha, this is almost exactly what we did for the tool we were working on, except we also had maybe 50-60 different states to address on top of that, and only so many colors. We had to do a lot of brainstorming and workarounds to get it all working, but the system we wound up going with was drat near perfect, with minimal amount of bitching. I consider that a win. When our main UI designer left for greener pastures, a bunch of us took him out to the Vortex here in Atlanta and bought him a ton of beers and the biggest goddamn fried-egg-grilled-cheese-sandwich-quadruple-decker cheeseburger on the menu. I think that thing was called the quadruple bypass. The guy was totally worth it; he was a brilliant UI designer, and made productivity throughout the office shoot through the roof. Nicest guy to work with, too. Shame he wound up moving all the way back to Canada; I miss the hell out of that guy.
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Jan 11, 2012 22:37
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wodin posted:But yeah, give your UI designers and your tools programmers a hug or bake them cookies or give them beer or something. They deserve it - it's a thankless job and is made worse by the fact that everyone around them gets to do amazingly cool stuff and they don't.  e: including the thread title. See? I've been vindicated already. OneEightHundred fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Jan 11, 2012 |
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Jan 11, 2012 22:38
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Chernabog posted:Is UI an easier field to break into? I see tons of open positions for that. I imagine it is because it is not as "glamorous" as other jobs. UI art is probably a little easier to get into than other areas (assuming you have skills/experience in graphic design or motion graphics/2d animation), since the people doing the hiring tend to have less knowledge of those areas compared to 3d. I play a game with my art director that involves me making up graphic design laws/terms and seeing if he can figure out when I'm bullshitting or being for reals. Anyway it's a lot of fun if you are like me and crave variety, and never really specialized in one area but sort of dabble in everything. While "I made Marcus Fenix" is more inherently glamorous than saying "you know the things that float on the screen that tell you how many bullets you've got? THAT'S ALL ME", there is something to be said for the fact that your art is the first thing every player always sees, and in some cases it is there in every single frame of the game. It's also pretty cool being so tightly involved in every aspect of a screen's creation -- I get to co-design screens, make the concepts, make the final art, animate them, and sometimes script them. There aren't many other areas of AAA development where you have that sort of freedom of follow-through. I actually turned down an invitation to switch over to the 3d art team for this project because it seemed less fun (for me personally) to take someone else's concept, sculpt it, and then pass it off to someone else to animate. Special bonus: it's also cool being the person that management turns to for all of the other random poo poo by virtue of being the de-facto in-house graphic designer (for studios too small to have a marketing asset team) -- publisher pitch docs, advertising, company t-shirts, christmas cards, etc.
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Jan 11, 2012 22:51
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Good UI design rarely gets the love it deserves. But bad UI design can absolutely ruin games/tools/programs/anything.
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Jan 11, 2012 23:05
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I'm not sure UI work is for me, but I might see if I can cure Skyrim PC's consolitis when the tools come out.
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Jan 11, 2012 23:11
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I think I could take to UI work well. I get way too much enjoyment out of redesigning my portfolio website every year.
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Jan 11, 2012 23:23
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lavhoes posted:What would be a good way to phrase it? Everything I come up with sounds too desperate and pleading. Need more "I'm a great candidate because I could be moved out there in two weeks" and less "I can move! Please hire me! I'll do anything!" I'm currently looking for challenging work/a rewarding position/synonym/etc all over (X)(the world, northern Florida, etc) and can relocate on short notice for the right opportunity. Qualify it. Put your worth (felt or not) into the statements you make in a resume. Don't brag, but never self-deprecate.
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Jan 11, 2012 23:33
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I have done a little bit of UI and I think it is pretty fun. The only reason I haven't applied for any of those positions is because I don't have a UI portfolio so I might have to do that if I decide to change.
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Jan 11, 2012 23:33
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I'd think "UI" these days would mostly mean "Flash" with pretty much everybody using Scaleform.
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Jan 11, 2012 23:35
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lavhoes posted:How favorably or unfavorably do you view someone who doesn't currently live in the city or even the state in which you're located? Good people are hard to find. We've set up our hiring strategy to do as much over the phone or remotely until we're sure we want to fly someone in for an interview, but hopefully by that time they've proven themselves through tests and so forth of being somebody we'd probably want on the team anyway. Other than green card issues (and hoping people would like to move to where we are, Dallas is a bit of a hard sell), where you're coming from doesn't matter.
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Jan 11, 2012 23:56
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OneEightHundred posted:I'd think "UI" these days would mostly mean "Flash" with pretty much everybody using Scaleform. ... but that said, if you can pick up Flash as an UI artist, and thus transform into a technical artist, it would certainly be a handy feather in your cap.
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Jan 12, 2012 00:02
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Has anyone actually signed up for AudioGang? It's linked in the OP as a resource for game audio, but it's a pretty steep paywall just to investigate.
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Jan 12, 2012 00:07
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Shalinor posted:Yes and no. Yes, it means Flash, but no, a UI artist won't always be expected to know Flash. It would depend on the size of the studio and the complexity of the UI in question. UI designer/artists are pretty technical, I'd say knowing flash is a must since even if you're using some sort of home-brew toolset the concepts of scripting are going to be the same. For UI knowing flash and LUA is pretty essential. For any major game your UI designer/artist is going to be expected to know how to script their UI and not just make bitmaps.
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Jan 12, 2012 00:11
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Sigma-X posted:UI designer/artists are pretty technical, I'd say knowing flash is a must since even if you're using some sort of home-brew toolset the concepts of scripting are going to be the same. ... that said, our team arrangement was odd and I wouldn't say it was a great setup. Our UI was also stupidly complex for all the wrong reasons, and wasn't procedurally driven in the least. Just saying that such positions do exist. EDIT: Fun exercise - go through screenshots of LEGO Universe, and try and find any two windows with identical close buttons. When you can find no two such windows, contemplate what this means. Shalinor fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Jan 12, 2012 |
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Jan 12, 2012 00:35
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BizarroAzrael posted:I'm not sure UI work is for me, but I might see if I can cure Skyrim PC's consolitis when the tools come out. This one I think is pretty much perfect: http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=667 But you're probably interested in doing it yourself though.
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Jan 12, 2012 01:05
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Right, so, I just signed up for a college course in Foundation Game Art with the view to completing this and going on to the next course, which is obtaining a Bachelor's in Game Art. I hope this looks good on a resumée once I'm all done with it, it's a four year commitment and stuff. At the very least, the time with the college will help me come up with a (hopefully) killer portfolio. It'd be nice to work in-house somewhere. Dream big, right? 
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Jan 12, 2012 01:05
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Tetrad posted:Good people are hard to find. Dallas a hard sell?? Are you kidding? People flock here in droves and there aren't many other cities that win out - Cali perhaps, or if you're a 22 year old hipster that must live in ~Austin~ but the cost of living can't be beat considering the poo poo pay for game devs.
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Jan 12, 2012 02:19
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Hughlander posted:It may be a disconnect between the expectations of the degree and the expectations of the field. When I was an undergraduate I had similar conversations with the head of the program and it basically came down to the fact that the University program was in Computer Science. It was a science degree to teach you how to think in terms of Computer Science. It was not a vocation degree for how to sling Java and use Source Control. It's designed for people who want to do research in Computer Science, to go on and get their masters and PhD in said field. Could that be the disconnect you're seeing? Did you go to a program to be "Game Industry Programmer" or to be a "Computer Scientist"? Personally the latter (there weren't a plethora of alternatives back then); but I've heard identical complaints from colleagues who had more game-oriented degrees, and I've seen the same with plenty of interns. Yes, that's the reason I usually hear. It also doesn't make much sense, given the very low percentage of Computer Science students who actually end up in academia. Whether that's just poor communication from the side of the Universities, or that there still aren't many good alternatives for studying actually industry-focused programming, I have no idea. Whatever the reason, the reality remains that most programming graduates today (game-dev focused or not), are very under-prepared for professional development. Assuming they don't pick this up on the side, which to be honest is what's true for most people who get hired by the industry straight out of university anyway: They get hired based on the strength of their side projects. And for my specific example, it doesn't make much difference. Whether you're writing code for a thesis, writing code for a website, or for a AAA game, you equally need source control . It should be the first thing universities teach after Hello World.
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Jan 12, 2012 02:31
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Vinterstum posted:Whatever the reason, the reality remains that most programming graduates today (game-dev focused or not), are very under-prepared for professional development. Assuming they don't pick this up on the side, which to be honest is what's true for most people who get hired by the industry straight out of university anyway: They get hired based on the strength of their side projects. In the past, all new graduates I've hired were previously our interns. I can say I've never hired a graduate who wasn't -- it's just the way it's worked out.
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