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-Inu- posted:Send it to Shoei. It's completely free. They will x-ray it and tell you if it's still sound. I sent my crashed helmet to them and it turned out to still usable. The way you crashed was low speed and it looked like your helmet impacted the ground in a way that could have compressed the EPS liner, whether you can see it or not. This is really good and useful advice. I have an extra helmet (also a Shoei) that's in terrific shape, but I don't wear it because it bruises my forehead. I keep it for passengers. I could put up with it for a few days while I get my other helmet inspected. I'll look into it tomorrow. -Inu- posted:Why are you running such sticky tires on the street? Power One's are legitimately the worst choice for a street tire due to the way Michelin race tires are affected by heat cycling. Race tires in general are a terrible idea on the street because as you found out, you will never get them up to temp. Even running a N track pace won't get them fully heated. I've ran takeoff Power Ones and Power Races on the street and they were honest-to-god the worst experience I have ever had with tires. Hahaha, I knew I'd get this from somebody :p Come on man, I'm just experimenting here. Some guys I ride with (who race, or do regular track days) convinced me to try them. I had the same concerns you described above, but had a chance to buy 'em cheap. I liked them enough to take my time to dig around for another good deal on them. For me it was a VERY noticeable improvement in grip and handling. No chicken strips, and my knee sliders started getting scuffed. Could be all in my head, false confidence. My rear tire is pretty much toast, so I'm going to try a Power Pure next. It's supposedly similar to the Power One, but a little better for the street, I think I'll like it.
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Jan 12, 2012 08:06
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My opinion is that race tires will heat cycle to death before they wear down which makes them a questionable choice for street rubber. I don't think their cold grip is that different than that of a normal street tire, but street tires will not heat cycle to death. Why don't you just get Pilot Powers if you want inexpensive good street rubber? I guarantee you're not so pro at riding that you'll outride the performance that Pilot Powers give you - street or novice/intermediate trackdays. I normally wouldn't tell you what to run if you're happy, but you just posted a video of you lowsiding and then blaming your tires, so maybe you need to rethink your approach. You also mentioned that all your friends are also crashing, so maybe their advice isn't infallible. 
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Jan 12, 2012 14:01
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WildWanderer posted:Crayvex As long as you know what's going on and you aren't just making excuses. Too many people blame cold tires, gravel, target fixation, painted lines, etc. for just riding too drat fast or over their skill level.  Also, were you just showing off for the camera? 
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Jan 12, 2012 14:03
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Bugdrvr posted:God drat it and I was crash free for so long (15 years!). Just wanted to reply to this even though its kinda old and has probably been resolved by now anyway, as it sounds pretty much exactly like my crash about a year and a half ago. Same exact situation, speeds, etc. The CHP officer was a little more professional, in that he didn't immediately make a determination and tell me I was at fault. Went through the other person's insurance, didn't seek any medical attention, got my settlement for the bike, physical injury and gear as three separate checks within a couple weeks. Basically had a couple phone calls with hers and my insurance companies, and mine stuck up for me and told them to gently caress off regarding me accepting any liability. Ponied up for the report a week or two later, and I was determined to be at fault, being a "small and difficult to see vehicle traveling at an unsafe speed for the conditions." V  V
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Jan 12, 2012 15:54
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Hey guys, I didn't mean to come off sounding smug or standoffish here. The last thing I want to be is that arrogant goon who won't take advice. The only reason I posted here in the first place is because I wanted to show you a somewhat funny video of what I consider to be the least-serious crash possible. I think that's my first mistake. I should have posted this in the motorcycle pictures and videos thread. I didn't even intend to turn my wreck into a discussion in the first place. Let me try and fix by giving you a serious, and detailed assessment of what happened from my point of view. My experience as a rider: I have been riding for about 2.5 years. In that time I have not owned a car and relied on my motorcycle/bicycles as my primary mode of transportation. I also ride from California to Pennsylvania to visit my family each summer. I have crossed the US 5 times so far. I am also involved with a well-organized group of local sport bikers and regularly join them for group rides. We do out best to be safe, but still ride aggressively and challenge each other. I have owned my Ducati Monster 900 since November of last year and have put about 18,000 miles on it. (it has just a smidge under 28,000 total miles on it now) What happened? Leaving a shopping center parking lot, I entered a turn at low speed, but lost traction in my rear wheel causing my bike to lowside. What caused the accident? Rider error. - My rear tire was cold and in poor condition (worn past the wear bars) and also not intended for street use. - I leaned into the turn a little too hard. - I also gave the bike a little too much throttle a little too early. Damage - Snapped front brake lever (replaced) - Scuffed, possibly damaged helmet. Injuries - None What can I do to avoid this in the future? - Replace my rear tire at my soonest convenience. Other than that, I feel like I take the necessary precautions to consider myself a safe rider. I ride my motorcycle almost every day, and I think it would be foolish not to expect accidents to happen. Sorry if that was overkill, but I felt like it was a good idea to be as detailed as possible.
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Jan 12, 2012 17:05
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WildWanderer posted:Hey guys, I didn't mean to come off sounding smug or standoffish here. The last thing I want to be is that arrogant goon who won't take advice. We're all still learning. You know what happened and thanks for sharing the video. I didn't mean to beat up on you. Personally I'm just sick of riders not taking the blame for their avoidable*** accidents. For example, when I started riding nearly a decade ago I low sided when I went into a 90 degree right turn too hot. I should mention that there was a car making a left turn in front of me that made me panic and grab the front brake. Who was to blame? At the time I was mad at the other driver but only later did I realize that I was too hard on the throttle, too overconfident in my ability, and I should have guessed that the car with the left turn signal on was going to try to turn. It was avoidable and I was a retard. Confident, cocky, lazy, dead. *** single vehicle accidents where there wasn't a turned over semi leaking diesel, marbles, or ball bearings in a blind curve.
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Jan 12, 2012 20:16
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WildWanderer posted:What can I do to avoid this in the future? You were good up until here. This has nothing to do with your rear tire. It has everything to do with not correctly judging the available amount of traction. That can happen on any tire, in any condition, and the correct way to stop the accident in the future is to be more mindful of the conditions, not replace your rear tire. It came out fast enough that you obviously were paying zero attention to how hard you were getting on the gas with respect to the conditions. I say this having run pretty much exclusively race takeoffs in all conditions for the last 2 years. They're fine as long as you respect the available traction. The tire, heat cycling, etc. is not the problem.
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Jan 12, 2012 20:42
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The hivemind's inability to allow somebody to even acknowledge another factor in a crash other than their own failures is getting a little silly. I totally disagree with not getting proper tires for the task at hand though. You're banking against your inexperience and rubber is a hell of a lot cheaper than flesh and plastic.
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Jan 12, 2012 23:03
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Bixington posted:The hivemind's inability to allow somebody to even acknowledge another factor in a crash other than their own failures is getting a little silly. It's because he didn't crash because of cold tires, he crashed because he was careless with the throttle. I have ridden the same tires he's running for thousands of miles, in all conditions, on half a dozen different bikes. If I can pull stoppies with them on an 94 Honda F2 in the rain, 3 blocks from my garage, there's no problem with the grip level on the tires. Saying "tires were the problem!" just means he's gonna crash again down the road when he overrides the traction limits of another set of tires in the cold and damp because he's not changing the behavior that leads to crashing, he's focusing on the tires giving up grip without looking at WHY they gave up grip. The tire failed because he asked it to do something unreasonable, not because the tires are inherently flawed. Ask your bike to do unreasonable things repeatedly, and you'll crash. Ask your bike to do unreasonable things with better tires and you'll just crash while going faster. Tires don't protect you when you make stupid decisions on a bike.
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Jan 12, 2012 23:28
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As I said, acknowledging anything other than rider error as part of the problem is beyond us, apparently. Nearly every accident is avoidable with rider skill, but when experience and forethought fail it's often accompanied with other factors. I've wrecked dirt bikes and street bikes, and the end blame is always on me, but its bullheaded to never even consider admitting that some other part of the equation existed to push the event past a rider's abilities. With more appropriate tires he may not have wrecked, even if the wreck was still 100% his fault regardless. They were still part of the problem. You may be Dr. StonerRossiAgostini, but the average rider probably shouldn't be using trackday tires for daily riding as it makes it all that much easier for them to outride their skill.
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Jan 13, 2012 03:26
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Z3n posted:
He said tires were part of the problem. More appropriate tires sure would help, no doubt there. Yes, there was rider error, but the margin of error would sure be wider with appropriate rubber. Or, you're saying we should all ride around on track tires, because if we're good enough riders to be worthy of the privelege of riding a motorcycle, all of our accidents during winter will be at low speeds because we'll be riding within the specs of the tire. Why even buy soft tires when you can just be a better rider and not have to worry about ever overriding traction on tires not designed for the cold? You're arguing against better tires under argumentum ad consequentiam. You're saying "Why get better tires if that will just increase the speed at which the rider loses grip in the cold because he'll surely just do it again?" This makes no sense.
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Jan 13, 2012 04:17
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Bixington posted:As I said, acknowledging anything other than rider error as part of the problem is beyond us, apparently. Safe riding is learning how to compensate for the "other parts of the equation". Over time, even good tires wear out, and grip is reduced. Sometimes you have to ride in the rain, the cold, and those things reduce grip too. Managing available grip is a basic skill of safely riding a 2 wheeled vehicle. The truth is, the conditions are an unchanging fact that you cannot modify once you're on a bike. The only thing you can change is how you ride given the conditions. The second you ride off, it's up to you to evaluate the conditions given the current setup of your motorcycle, and adjust accordingly. He failed to do that, and crashed as a result. Saying "well, the tires just didn't grip enough" is only looking at the symptom of his error in judgment, not the error in judgment itself. And letting that error in judgment go unaddressed under the guise of "it was because of the lovely tires!" means he will repeat that same crash in the future. I did this repeatedly in the past, and crashed multiple times because I always looked at the symptoms of my crashes rather than the causes of my crashes. Finally, based on my experience on DOT race tires, the video and how quick the bike went out from under him, I don't think that different tires wouldn't have avoided that crash. The best sport touring tires in the world won't save you when you hammer the throttle over a painted line in the cold and wet.
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Jan 13, 2012 04:18
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Geirskogul posted:He said tires were part of the problem. More appropriate tires sure would help, no doubt there. Yes, there was rider error, but the margin of error would sure be wider with appropriate rubber. quote:What can I do to avoid this in the future? quote:Or, you're saying we should all ride around on track tires, because if we're good enough riders to be worthy of the privelege of riding a motorcycle, all of our accidents during winter will be at low speeds because we'll be riding within the specs of the tire. Why even buy soft tires when you can just be a better rider and not have to worry about ever overriding traction on tires not designed for the cold? What I'm saying is really simple: If you don't ride with respect to the conditions, you will crash. He's going to crash again if he doesn't adjust his perspective on riding in crappy conditions, regardless of the tires he runs. quote:You're arguing against better tires under argumentum ad consequentiam. You're saying "Why get better tires if that will just increase the speed at which the rider loses grip in the cold because he'll surely just do it again?" This makes no sense. I'm saying that there is a core flaw in his approach to "avoiding this accident in the future", because the best tires still can't compensate for bad judgement.
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Jan 13, 2012 04:26
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Z3n posted:
THAT'S NOT EVEN WHAT'S AT ISSUE HERE. Here's a quote from his post: quote:What caused the accident? Yes, he knows it was rider error. A better tire can help, though. Why the gently caress are you arguing against it? We all know it was rider error. Rider error rider error rider error. But an inappropriate tire doesn't help the situation. I don't think you even read his entire post, or else you would have seen this, and not argued like a madman that there's no reason at all to change the tires. He knows he made mistakes controlling the bike! You're the only person where who thinks he thinks new tires are the fix-all solution. Everyone else, including him, knows that the lack of appropriate riding for the conditions was the major factor. Do you get it? EDIT: VVVV God dammit I remember why I had you on my ignore list now. It's because you don't live in the same universe as the rest of the human world where putting better equipment on your bike could be considered a good thing. Queen_Combat fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Jan 13, 2012 |
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Jan 13, 2012 04:36
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Geirskogul posted:THAT'S NOT EVEN WHAT'S AT ISSUE HERE. Here's a quote from his post: quote:What can I do to avoid this in the future? I'm saying that thinking that an accident caused by rider error can be fixed by "better tires" and not "It's time to re-evaluate how I ride in lovely conditions" is going to crash again. He understands the crash occurred because of rider error, but he then assumes that the crash was inevitable. He says that he feels like he rides safely and that crashes are a part of "safe riding". I think that's bullshit. Geirskogul posted:You're the only person where who thinks he thinks new tires are the fix-all solution. Everyone else, including him, knows that the lack of appropriate riding for the conditions was the major factor. Do you get it? All I have to go off is what he says. He says "Rider error caused the crash, but to stop it in the future, I'm going to change tires. Otherwise, I feel like I'm a safe rider". I disagree. Z3n fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jan 13, 2012 |
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Jan 13, 2012 04:50
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Z3n posted:All I have to go off is what he says. He says "Rider error caused the crash, but to stop it in the future, I'm going to change tires. Otherwise, I feel like I'm a safe rider". I disagree. I read his stuff more as "I gave it 100% throttle when I knew the tire would only support 90% throttle and crashed. I'm going to replace the tire, so I know it take 100% throttle. I'm at fault here, because I failed to manage traction on this worn tire." As in, the crash was inevitable in the same way not turning and hitting a wall is. It's the your fault you hit the wall, but removing the wall removes the cause of the crash, and it's OK to bemoan the wall being there.
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Jan 13, 2012 05:02
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:I read his stuff more as "I gave it 100% throttle when I knew the tire would only support 90% throttle and crashed. I'm going to replace the tire, so I know it take 100% throttle. I'm at fault here, because I failed to manage traction on this worn tire." My problem is that if you have expectations like you can get 100% traction when you're riding in cold, lovely weather, you're eventually going to crash for the same reason again. Maybe he gets it and this is all moot(moot) but I've seen far too many people crash because they have "cold tires" or "worn tires", fix the "problem", and then crash again in the exact same way within the next year. And they always follow the same pattern: "Yeah, I hosed up but new tires and it'll all be good!". It's about looking at the greater context that the crash takes place in, and reasonable expectations around how you can and can't ride in different conditions. If you don't make that bigger picture the primary focus of your approach to safe riding, you'll repeat the same mistakes, and crash again. I've done it, and I've seen it happen over and over. Hopefully this is all irrelevant and he gets it, if it's not, then hopefully he'll realize that the adjustment to avoid this type of crash in the future needs to take place with the rider, not the bike. Z3n fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Jan 13, 2012 |
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Jan 13, 2012 05:13
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Geirskogul posted:EDIT: VVVV God dammit I remember why I had you on my ignore list now. It's because you don't live in the same universe as the rest of the human world where putting better equipment on your bike could be considered a good thing. No, it's because I've watched riders endlessly upgrade their bikes in an attempt to address the problems with their riding, and as much as I love buying their cheap crashed bikes, Wild Wanderer seems like a good guy and I don't have much use for a M900 right now. 
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Jan 13, 2012 05:31
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Z3n posted:No, it's because I've watched riders endlessly upgrade their bikes in an attempt to address the problems with their riding, and as much as I love buying their cheap crashed bikes, Wild Wanderer seems like a good guy and I don't have much use for a M900 right now. In your opinion, then, is it a good idea to forgo the tire replacement in favor of a helmet (if needed) to get more experience riding on bad tires in poor weather with compromised traction? The alternative is to get a better tire and learn how to deal with poor weather and compromised traction. Just with more margin for error, maybe? Maybe so much margin that errors don't happen again? I'm sorry. I'm trying to see both sides of this argument and have come out all confused about who's saying what.
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Jan 13, 2012 05:36
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Z3n posted:No, it's because I've watched riders endlessly upgrade their bikes in an attempt to address the problems with their riding, and as much as I love buying their cheap crashed bikes, Wild Wanderer seems like a good guy and I don't have much use for a M900 right now. This doesn't mean there's no reason for a better tire, though, which is what you're claiming. You don't make sense in your arguments.
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Jan 13, 2012 05:40
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Man, you're building a box for yourself that doesn't exist. Here's the breakdown: -Get a new tire -Wear your spare helmet while your main is getting checked out. -If it comes back bad, then buy a new one, or don't. You can send the helmet off and buy a new rear at the same time. Then save up to get a new lid.
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Jan 13, 2012 05:48
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:In your opinion, then, is it a good idea to forgo the tire replacement in favor of a helmet (if needed) to get more experience riding on bad tires in poor weather with compromised traction? You should always attempt to have the best equipment you can possibly afford, but the best equipment isn't a replacement for cultivating the safest possible approach to riding. You don't need to be on a clapped out bike with lovely tires while riding in lovely weather to know that you should ride slower when conditions suck. The thing about motorcycles is that there is never enough margin in the equipment alone to keep you completely safe. You can't haul balls around and you can't give it a fistful of throttle when the conditions are crappy without eventually ending up on the ground. The takeaway from that shouldn't be that crashes are inevitable, but rather that you need to slow down when you are in a situation where conditions could turn crappy quickly. This is advice that applies across the board in riding, be it in blind corners, approaching intersections where someone is waiting to turn left, in intersections where there are painted lines, manholes, and fluid spills that could cause you to lose grip. Regardless of what he does with the bike, the helmet, or the tires, he needs to understand that this accident was preventable, crashes do not have to be a part of street riding, and that judgment is far more important than the conditions of your tires, or the bike you ride. Geirskogul posted:This doesn't mean there's no reason for a better tire, though, which is what you're claiming. You don't make sense in your arguments. He can, or cannot replace the tire, but I can say with absolute certainty that if he keeps riding without respecting the conditions he's riding in, he will crash again. It's just a matter of time. Thusly, his choice of tire is irrelevant if he doesn't feel like he needs to change how he rides, because it's still very easy to lose traction with aggressive throttle application when conditions are lovely, regardless of what tires you run. I'm not saying he should or shouldn't replace the tire, I'm saying it doesn't matter if he doesn't change his approach to riding in bad conditions.
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Jan 13, 2012 06:01
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Well yeah. We can pick this apart all we want. I am a very experienced rider, and even though there were some risks that contributed to my accident, I was aware of all of them and know how to manage them. This accident was 100% avoidable. The fact is that no matter what you do, there are two risks that cannot be avoided. 1. Motorcycles are operated by human beings. 2. Motorcycles only have 2 wheels. It doesn't matter what bike you ride, or how skilled or careful you are. Murphy's law applies. I was back on my bike the next morning for 2 reasons. 1. I wore proper safety gear so I was not injured. 2. I chose bike that is easy and inexpensive to repair after a lowside. To be honest, I don't think this is an example of a motorcyclist "loving up." This was an example of a motorcyclist being prepared, thus a minor accident did not prevent him from getting back on his bike the next day.
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Jan 13, 2012 06:29
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Z3n, I agree with you about a lot of things, a lot of the time, but you are out in left field here. You are generalizing incorrectly about his riding "attitude" based on one fifteen second snippet of his riding. Additionally, those are likely the worst 15 seconds to judge by. I have to admit that I'm maybe taking this a little personally, too, since you called me out in much the same way when I dumped my BMW at similar speed in similar conditions (old tires, wet road, slowing at 5-10mph ) waaay back in October of 2009. The implication of what you are saying is that it wouldn't have happened to "a better rider". Well, I've taken the MSF (twice, once on their bike, once on mine), I bought a bike on a fly and ride, and rode 800 miles home. I've played in the dirt and on muddy forest roads , I've cut through on sidewalks and short stairs between parking lots. I've hooned with a lady on a KTM supermoto until I ran out of gas. And every time I get on the bike (which is not nearly as often as I'd like), I'm still scared shitless the whole time I'm riding that the bike is going to fling me off mercilessly and without warning right into another eight hundred dollar medical bill because nobody has sent me that "better rider" card in the mail yet, and I still from time to time make micro mistakes despite my best efforts to be the best rider possible. I find it exceedingly difficult to believe that all of you who's opinions I respect in this forum make zero micro mistakes, ever. Or that there is zero possibility that the error chance that they represent won't stack up until you miss your "save vs. Diesel" roll at some point. Need to tighten up your line making that right onto main street? Micro mistake. Case the jump? Micro mistake. You just HAVE to give a rider a little slack in the cases, or you wind up like me. I have a hilariously fun bike that I put maybe 50 miles on last year because I have so little confidence in the intersection between the contract patch and my ability to avoid making another ill timed micro mistake the throws my rear end to the ground a second time. Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Jan 13, 2012 |
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Jan 13, 2012 07:05
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Z3n posted:
Did you read the linked "argumentum ad consequentiam?" You're arguing against possible consequences, and that is preventing you from making any rational discussion about NOW. What happens now, and what the conversation was about until you went hog wild, is basically what invision posted. That's it. There's no reason to be high-and-mighty about technique, because that has already been discussed and agreed upon. We all know what happened, and the causes. Now you're berating multiple people for one mistake that everyone knows all the conditions to, and is actually irrelevant to what you're talking about. Are you  ?invision posted:Man, you're building a box for yourself that doesn't exist. Here's the breakdown: I wish I could be this concise, because this post sums everything relevant up nicely. Queen_Combat fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Jan 13, 2012 |
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Jan 13, 2012 07:06
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Z3n posted:All I have to go off is what he says. He says "Rider error caused the crash, but to stop it in the future, I'm going to change tires. Otherwise, I feel like I'm a safe rider". I disagree. Observation changes the thing observed. What was it we were supposed to glean from this video if there wasn't a crash? Carpenter crack avoidance techniques? A nighttime tour of beautiful downtown Pomona? Mad skillz yo? I know that moto idiocy would exist without Youtube. I'm sure some goon's great-great-grandpa tried to see if a Flying Merkel could actually fly. But ubiquitous cameras have undeniably done more harm than good where newer riders are concerned. In my case, I don't even need a camera--another rider behind me can be enough. I absolutely make more mental errors and behave unnaturally when every lane choice, line choice, and flick of the wrist is being critiqued. Try to enter a roadway clearly marked "Do Not Enter?" CHECK! Blow through a solid red? DONE! Have I ever been that brain dead riding solo? Hail naw. Get rid of the fourth wall here and we have an unscathed Ducati. Still, I salute the rider for owning up and concluding that he, like old Gus Grissom, just plain screwed the pooch. That's a rare thing in an ego-intensive pursuit. The more subtle lesson to be learned from Gus is this: no one gives a poo poo if the hatch/tire malfunctioned, because you're solely responsible for the success or failure of the mission, whether you're returning from orbit or from the mall.
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Jan 13, 2012 07:22
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Jabs posted:Z3n, I agree with you about a lot of things, a lot of the time, but you are out in left field here. You are generalizing incorrectly about his riding "attitude" based on one fifteen second snippet of his riding. Additionally, those are likely the worst 15 seconds to judge by. What I'm trying to get at here is that he needs to worry about judgment he applies towards riding much more than the mistakes that lead to a crash. This is how I break down a crash analysis: The first phase of crash analysis is when you look at a crash and can identify final event that put the rider on the ground: In this case, the back tire lost traction. The second phase is when you can identify what actions led to that result: He hammered the throttle over a situation where traction was likely compromised already, an intersection with painted lines, in cold and potentially wet conditions. Switching the tires is trying to stop the incident in phase one. It might work, but you're reacting to the problem, and reacting to a problem isn't the most effective way to stop accidents. If you're in traffic, this is equivalent to cruising along until someone merges into you and then reacting. Saying "rider error" is trying to address it in phase 2. "I hammered the throttle, and the bike slid, and I crashed". If you're in traffic, this is driving next to a car, and looking out for them to merge into you, not being surprised when it happens, and having a plan ready for when they do it. The third phase is when you start looking at the rider and why they put themselves in that situation. Why did he hammer the throttle there? Was it because the camera was on? Because he was tired? Because he wanted to get home quickly? Riding angry, happy? Ignorance of the effects of lovely weather? In traffic, this is where you start look at the flow of traffic and say: what can I do now to minimize my risk in the future? This is when you're next to the car, you move in anticipation of them merging without looking, and they merge in front of you or behind you rather than with you. Prediction and diffusion of future risk through superior judgment. There's a saying: "Superior riders use superior judgement to avoid situations that require superior skill". Hammering the throttle when it's cold and lovely is something that's quite likely to cause a need for superior skill to handle the resulting drift without lowsiding. The point that immediately follows is that he should be looking at that situation and looking at himself and saying "Why did I do that?". I'm trying to get to the phase 3 evaluation of the crash here. This accident occurred because of rider error, but the rider error occurred because of a lapse in judgment. He says the accident was preventable, and it was: What caused that lapse in judgment that led to him hammering the throttle? How can he adjust his riding mindset to compensate for that urge to hammer the throttle in whatever the situation was in his head that started the chain of events that put him on the ground? I'm trying to get him to take a step back, generalize the situation out more, and apply that awareness to his riding as a whole. The next time the desire to hammer the throttle comes up, it should be tempered by the memory of this accident, it should lead to a second evaluation of the conditions, of the road, of the bike, of the quality of his tires, and that split second evaluation is often the difference between noticing how slick the painted lines look and slowing down a bit, and a crashed bike. Geirskogul posted:Did you read the linked "argumentum ad consequentiam?" You're arguing against possible consequences, and that is preventing you from making any rational discussion about NOW. What happens now, and what the conversation was about until you went hog wild, is basically what invision posted. That's it. There's no reason to be high-and-mighty about technique, because that has already been discussed and agreed upon. We all know what happened, and the causes. Now you're berating multiple people for one mistake that everyone knows all the conditions to, and is actually irrelevant to what you're talking about. Are you What I'm pointing out is there is a larger lesson about judgment, not technique, to apply to his overall riding in this crash. The thing I'm trying to make him aware of has nothing to do with skill, nothing to do with riding ability in terms of bike control, and everything to do with fine tuning your control of yourself on the motorcycle, and how you can use that to be a safer rider. That you're talking about technique shows that I'm failing to get the point through to you. It's about the mental processes that lead to the technique errors, and how changing those processes means the errors never have a chance to take place. Marv Hushman posted:The more subtle lesson to be learned from Gus is this: no one gives a poo poo if the hatch/tire malfunctioned, because you're solely responsible for the success or failure of the mission, whether you're returning from orbit or from the mall. This. And the most important thing in keeping your missions successful isn't the equipment...it's the mind that chooses how to approach each situation. Jabs: Get yourself into an environment where the consequences of those micro mistakes are minimized. A parking lot, a dirt lot, get geared up and go play, get more comfortable on the bike in an environment where you can make those mistakes. I still make those mistakes all the time while I ride...Most of them just get caught before they actually make it through to the controls. When they don't, good judgment comes into play, choosing to brake a little earlier, slow down a bit, not push the limits in a place where a micro mistake can be deadly. I'm not perfect, I make a lot of mistakes: That's why I have trained myself to think things out as best I can in advance, so I can anticipate mistakes before they happen, train better habits, and be a safer rider as a result. Z3n fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Jan 13, 2012 |
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Jan 13, 2012 10:01
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I agree with what Z3n is saying about crash analysis. Also, he's pushing the "technique and mindset" agenda because, as he stated, there is human tendency to blame the equipment and not the rider. Nobody is saying that better tires will not improve anything at all, but in the scope of this accident, I agree that, by far, the greatest risk was what was being asked of the bike, and not the shoes it was wearing. WildWanderer posted:I am a very experienced rider, and even though there were some risks that contributed to my accident, I was aware of all of them and know how to manage them. It also doesn't help that while WildWanderer on one hand says it's his fault (and, to his benefit, does state he gave too much throttle and lean), he then says stuff I listed above which appears to put him more in the camp of "Welp, it was just some bad luck!" which won't really help in preventing future accidents if riding habits are not changed. In my view, it IS an example of a rider loving up because, short of some condition that is completely unforeseen and unavoidable (ball bearing in blind corner example as stated earlier), this was something that shouldn't have happened in the first place. He also mentions in his original post how another rider lowsided and points out his race tires as if that was some kind of cause of the accident rather than rider error. Later, he hints at his ability to remove chicken strips and scorch his knee sliders as signs of riding skill. Maybe I just assume the worst due to the people I meet, and how I thought I rode, but the motorcycle world seems so full of people who think they are better than they really are. I certainly was before my first trackday, where I encountered people who really knew what they were doing and made me realize how much farther I have to go. I've used a motorcycle as main transportation (don't own a car), ridden in all sorts of weather, and owned all sorts of bikes, and only consider myself an intermediate rider, despite having comparable experience to WW. Sure, you could accuse me of never giving people the benefit of the doubt when attributing blame for a crash, but I've seen modern motorcycle tires and chassis perform amazing things that I cannot come close to replicating with my own riding. Every motorcycle I've owned (or will likely ever own) is more capable than I am in using it. That's not say that I don't like using the best tires I can, but I have crashed several times and my initial reaction is always figuring out what I did wrong rather than what is wrong with the bike. Finally, and not to be too hard on WildWanderer, we've all been there, and I certainly would have some dumb crashes to show off if I had a camera on me all the time. It is a good thing that he wore gear and is in the right mindset to share his accident and invite criticism and comments. I also think Z3n's heart is in the right place by pushing the judgment and skills agenda, as I'd rather have a forum of people jumping over riding error and be proactive about that than just recommending better equipment, even if it is inherently biased against the offending riders. FuzzyWuzzyBear fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Jan 13, 2012 |
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Jan 13, 2012 14:56
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Jan 13, 2012 21:57
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SaNChEzZ posted:I'm still waiting for the "I'm a helipcopter pilot" or "I'm a marine" argument next!
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Jan 14, 2012 02:04
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Intense philosophical discussions regarding the nature of motorcycle safety ITT.
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Jan 14, 2012 02:41
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I don't agree with riding like a dong, but I will defend his right to do so to the death.
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Jan 14, 2012 02:54
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Z3n I'm still a little unclear. Could you post another 12 or 13 paragraphs?
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Jan 14, 2012 03:10
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Nah I'm spent.
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Jan 14, 2012 03:12
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Whelp.. left the same shopping center this evening. Didn't wreck. Maybe I did learn something after all.
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Jan 14, 2012 08:37
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For those of us who scrolled past the last few days... good ride 
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Jan 14, 2012 08:51
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drat. You guys are too polite. I can't have luigi30 and crew read posts here like he does about $2500 in spergy road bike light setups as a Speak-n-Spell or Hank Hill over Mumble in BF3. 
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Jan 14, 2012 13:11
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Riding like a dong rules that is all.
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Jan 14, 2012 17:53
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kylej posted:Riding like a dong rules that is all. Only way to ride. Too bad I'm serious to a point.I'm not going back through that clusterfuck but I just have one question - how long did you have on the takeoffs? I've been through multiple takeoff sets without an issue but I do notice that they are retardedly slippery -only until you get them scrubbed in again-, then they are fine.
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Jan 15, 2012 04:26
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Aren't race takeoffs always going to be poo poo in the winter, though, no matter how recent?
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Jan 15, 2012 04:29
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