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So apparently there are some racism problems going on. Apparently he recently removed a reference to Dave being white from the comic after this sort of blew up. Not really sure how to feel about that. (It is probably being blown out of proportion but at the same time it's a bit upsetting)
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Jan 16, 2012 23:27
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everyone knows John and Jade are both Asian they have buck teeth. Three buck teeth.  Dad is still white though
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Jan 16, 2012 23:31
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Just when I thought the fanbase couldn't get more retarded... 
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Jan 16, 2012 23:33
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Starmaker posted:So apparently there are some racism problems going on. Is Hussie seriously arguing that it's racist to point out that John looks and acts white? Not that I think the comic is racist for not having explicitly non-white characters, but  .
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Jan 16, 2012 23:36
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Tollymain posted:Just when I thought the fanbase couldn't get more retarded... Actually it's hussie being stupid here. He's blowing up in response to someone legitimately calling him on bullshit by calling them a racist and then scurrying to cover his arse by retroactively removing references to character race. It's embarrassing. he should have just said "I guess they're pretty white-looking but I think there's enough leeway in the character designs to have your own interpretations" rather than "If you think they look white clearly you are a bigot."
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Jan 16, 2012 23:38
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Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with Hussie's response here. Especially considering how internet savvy he is, it's kind of astounding he'd think he could get away with changing the text of a comic. I hope he owns up to it and admits his mistake.
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Jan 16, 2012 23:42
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Ugh, Andrew, did you really have to pull the "You're the real racist" card? There's colourblindness as in "be fair and even-handed in representing and interacting with all races". And then there's colourblindness as in "I can't tell when there's racial implications to anything ever LA LA LA", and it really seems like he's doubled down on the latter. Supercar Gautier fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jan 16, 2012 |
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Jan 16, 2012 23:44
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creationist believer posted:Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with Hussie's response here. Especially considering how internet savvy he is, it's kind of astounding he'd think he could get away with changing the text of a comic. I hope he owns up to it and admits his mistake. Either that or he's just doing it to continue pissing off people who got worked up over the issue in the first place. Normally I'm not one to say "he's just trollin" whenever Hussie does something off-kilter, but it feels a little more likely here to me. Maybe because feeble callouts of media with insufficient diversity or whatever as racist lost its ability to engage and entertain ages ago.
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Jan 16, 2012 23:45
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That's mostly everyone's issue, I think, just that one post and how he worded it. Anyways, more readings here (it's his girlfriend's, who is once again doing damage control. Dammit Hussie stop being such an incendiary weirdo). It seems like most of what can be said has already been said in the vast tumblr space. I just thought people might like to know that there is apparently a thing going on. (I hope this doesn't become a scandal, but at the same time I'd implore people to not just immediately dismiss people with concerns about racism as being oversensitive. Racism is a real, living, and important problem and often their feelings of offense are legitimate!) VVVVV That's really my issue here, he's just handling things so poorly. I think if he just admitted his mistake and apologised a lot of people would be satisfied. It would be weird to see him apologise, though, but first time for everything, and so forth. Starmaker fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Jan 16, 2012 |
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Jan 16, 2012 23:45
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There wouldn't even be a problem if Hussie just said "Yeah all of these characters are white because I wrote it that way" so the fact that he's felt the need to cover his arse in such a dumb, dumb way to deflect a non-issue is pretty absurd.
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Jan 16, 2012 23:48
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To be honest, I'm just resigned to the fact that Hussie might be a little racially insensitive. Cool guy and all - I'm willing to think it's more ignorance than deliberate hate (privileged viewpoint though that is) - but often he gets a little bit dodgy when it comes to matters of race. Given he tends to draw black black people, I'm pretty sure that none of the homestuck cast is black, since they don't look like offensive stereotypes. I'm amazed the tumblrati haven't made more of this, to be honest - this, and the 'epic rape joke xd' humour of the older Stoner Lou comics. Though perhaps Hussie was being ... ironic? 
WINNERSH TRIANGLE fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 16, 2012 23:57
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It seems like a more realistic answer would be "They can't be a multitude of races because they're related. But you could probably imagine John/Jade/Jake/Jane as asian if you want." Not as POST-RACE UTOPIAN as he might be gunning for, but not unreasonable. I mean, there are really no mental backflips you can do to imagine, say, Dave as black. Basically, I think he's got the kind of well-meaning but damaging naivete about race representation issues that privilege affords, and he's digging his heels in.
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Jan 17, 2012 00:01
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I was gonna post the original L'il Cal comics but I was beaten. Hussie seems to have suffered from a bout of what they call "hipster racism" -- admittedly he's moved away from that a bit, as the most egregious examples are confined to his older material. Meanwhile, I'm just gonna leave this here. quote:As fans, sometimes we need to remember that the things we like don’t define our worth as people. So there’s no need to defend them from every single criticism or pretend they are perfect. Really loving something means seeing it as it really is, not as you wish it were. You can still be a good fan while acknowledging the problematic elements of the things you love. In fact, that’s the only way to be a good fan of problematic things.
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Jan 17, 2012 00:06
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The thing is, this aracial comment isn't even a new thing. Someone asked him what race the kids were a long time ago, and he said "the only race they obviously aren't is black" in his standard formspring flippancy. Even then it didn't really make a lot of sense. I mean, for one thing I don't know a lot of asian people who are blond, like Dave and Rose are, and John explicitly saying Dave is white, even though you could just say that he wouldn't even know since they were just friends over the internet. It could just be he wasn't really thinking of the kids race as being important to the story so he just never considered it. I think his response, like changing a part of the text and such, is a bit reactionary, and I'm more surprised by what he was thinking even doing it, as it's obvious the kinda reaction he would get. If he'd just blown this offin his standard sarcastic Hussie manner it probably wouldn't even be a Thing. EDIT: For reference, for those too lazy/ dont care to google, all his old Q&A stuff is archived here: http://www.mspaforums.com/showthread.php?42662-Formspring-Archives The relevant question: AH's Old Formspring posted:Q: Is Jade asian? Is this supposed to be a racist social commentary sort of thing? Rohan Kishibe fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 17, 2012 00:09
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Supercar Gautier posted:It seems like a more realistic answer would be "They can't be a multitude of races because they're related. But you could probably imagine John/Jade/Jake/Jane as asian if you want." Not as POST-RACE UTOPIAN as he might be gunning for, but not unreasonable. I mean, there are really no mental backflips you can do to imagine, say, Dave as black. A combination of that, and his general 'I'm a cool rude dgaf dude with a 'tude' demeanour that he works so assiduously to keep up, I think. The notion that he'd back down to an internet person, even if they're in the right, is fairly unlikely. He's certainly onto an interesting idea about homestuck deliberately catering for author input, and people seeing their own issues and escapism reflected in the comic, and I think there's certainly evidence of him fostering that (god tier troll hoodies, get one for your starsign, come, get 'em while they're hot). It's successful, too - everyone and their dog has a fan-troll or three, it seems. You could do something interesting with a 'post-race utopian' sburb variant (and artstyle, maybe?), it's just that so far, Homestuck has not been that webcomic, and the whitewashing issue has been a problem.
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Jan 17, 2012 00:10
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I gotta say, I'm incredibly disappointed by his response, possibly enough to make me fed up with the whole thing (which has been losing its luster for me for a while anyway). Considering some of the canon art that's been in the flashes and whatnot, I find it fairly audacious for anyone, least of all Hussie, to assert that the main kids aren't white. Even if they aren't, and can be 'anything', they still look white in coloring and facial structure. Why should a person of ambiguous race have to look like a white person by default? And then it's the reader's fault for "misinterpreting" this? Give me a break. Oops now I'm racist for assuming that clearly white characters are white Grantaire fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 17, 2012 00:23
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creationist believer posted:Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with Hussie's response here. Especially considering how internet savvy he is, it's kind of astounding he'd think he could get away with changing the text of a comic. I hope he owns up to it and admits his mistake. The way that he acts, he's going to hold on to the idea that he is right and everyone else is wrong until he dies.
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Jan 17, 2012 00:25
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I came to this thread hoping to get away from all the silly bickering that's going on in Tumblr. Can we please not be just like them, guys? 
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Jan 17, 2012 00:33
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people posted:racism Yeah the race response is pretty lovely, but then, Hussie has proven himself to be up his rear end about stuff like that before, so I wish I was surprised. It would have been better to just not say anything than to make the post he did because at least then he wouldn't look quite as much up his own rear end. Daius posted:There wouldn't even be a problem if Hussie just said "Yeah all of these characters are white because I wrote it that way" so the fact that he's felt the need to cover his arse in such a dumb, dumb way to deflect a non-issue is pretty absurd. Basically he should have done this with maybe a possible caveat of "but if you picture them differently I'm not going to tell you no, fire away," not "they're COMPLETELY ARACIAL and if you think they're coded white, the racist is you." dumb brunette fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 17, 2012 00:33
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Graceful Graveler posted:I came to this thread hoping to get away from all the silly bickering that's going on in Tumblr. Can we please not be just like them, guys? How is anything being said here "silly bickering"? The criticisms people are posting are pretty measured and rational, sorry if even that bothers you.
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Jan 17, 2012 00:34
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Supercar Gautier posted:How is anything being said here "silly bickering"? The criticisms people are posting are pretty measured and rational, sorry if even that bothers you. Ack, you're right. I just get so tired of seeing actual bickering everywhere else that I just start to glaze over even legitimate arguments. Sorry. 
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Jan 17, 2012 00:39
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Graceful Graveler posted:I came to this thread hoping to get away from all the silly bickering that's going on in Tumblr. Can we please not be just like them, guys? Yeah, Gautier's got a point - while I'm not a great fan of tumblr culture, it's not right to suggest that race issues are 'silly bickering'. Besides, I actually find it all quite interesting as a critique on the level of abstraction in homestuck, and the sort of assumptions that underlie it (note, for instance, that despite the alleged 'race neutral' nature of Homestuck, a good majority of the offical fanart (calendars, etc) has portrayed them as white). And besides, love Hussie, love his Weird Arrogant Pomposity (did I mention that he was a sociopath? Yeah, totally. Saw him at a con once.). It's all part of the Andrew Hussie experience.
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Jan 17, 2012 00:41
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I have to say that post was not a very well-considered move on Hussie's part, yeah. It's fair enough if he wants his characters to be more or less race-neutral, but the work won't quite support that reading even if all explicit references are removed. (And, really, I think it'll suffer if he does that.) His standoffish manner doesn't help - not that that's new, but it's more of a problem when the situation is a bit more delicate than the usual matter of somebody being unhappy with a drawing he made or something. (The post reblogged here makes some good points.)
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Jan 17, 2012 00:52
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Yeah, this whole race thing is a disaster. The bit of retconning Hussie is doing saddens me. Hussie, you're not Tim Buckley, you're better than this! In happier news, I've started my third contest entrant! After I finish this one I'll be ready to submit all three songs. "Handmaiden of Death"
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Jan 17, 2012 00:59
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Dropping this racist-rear end comic.
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Jan 17, 2012 01:07
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Ugh, the retconning bit is the worst part. Just let it go, Hussie. It really doesn't matter. I don't see how this had to be an issue, or even warrant a response, in the first place.Hanks Lust Cafe posted:Dropping this racist-rear end comic. Hoping this is sarcasm.
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Jan 17, 2012 01:28
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As much as I don't want to drag this any further, but what even elicited this response from Hussie? His tumblr post didn't explain where the argument came from, at all. I mean, basically everyone is being completely stupid, I just want to know who was being stupid first.
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Jan 17, 2012 01:39
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Hamiltonian Bicycle posted:His standoffish manner doesn't help - not that that's new, but it's more of a problem when the situation is a bit more delicate than the usual matter of somebody being unhappy with a drawing he made or something. (The post reblogged here makes some good points.) Yeah, his normal demeanor works when he's answering questions about troll sex (or height, remember that's how this all started?) but it really doesn't work on serious issues like race. This is exactly why I didn't want On the bright side, his gf seems to be handling this (mostly) with the respect it deserves, and she's been very active. There's no way Andrew isn't aware of the situation, so hopefully he'll do the grown up thing (or she convinces him to) and gives a respectful response. I know it would really break character, but I think he has it in him. E: or at the very least I hope he just leaves it alone and lets it blow over, and never makes a reference/incites a reaction/trolls his fans on this subject ever. Starmaker fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 17, 2012 01:39
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I don't see this going anywhere good. Thinking an update needs to happen. Dirk: Neigh like a horse and poo poo on your editing hardware.
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Jan 17, 2012 01:39
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Well Manicured Man posted:Yeah, this whole race thing is a disaster. The bit of retconning Hussie is doing saddens me. Hussie, you're not Tim Buckley, you're better than this! What about the Zillyhoo one? Honestly it feels like a stronger Homestuck composition than Queen Me, and of all of your recent stuff I imagine it being the easiest for Hussie to try to fit an animation to. It maybe doesn't fit the restrictive album theme exactly, but it would be hard to turn it away after listening. I wouldn't pass up the chance of it making it all the way. Anyway, liking Handmaiden, but it feels like it's missing an instrument. Something in very low pitch brass for the first half and alternating with the percussion in the second?
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Jan 17, 2012 01:40
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thanks alot assbag posted:As much as I don't want to drag this any further, but what even elicited this response from Hussie? His tumblr post didn't explain where the argument came from, at all. Hussie said something about race being whatever you wanted in a previous tumblr post where he said "I was just joking about Gamzee being the shortest troll, do whatever the gently caress you want with heights/chubby characters/race for the kids, I honestly could not care less." Someone apparently brought up the race thing and that led to what we have now. EDIT: Here is the entry and this is the relevant text: Hussie posted:This is generally true of physical traits. The basic element of abstraction in HS disallows clear cut answers on a number of things. People responded to this with "but they're coded white," which resulted in his terribly short-sighted response. dumb brunette fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 17, 2012 01:48
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Prison Warden posted:The thing is, this aracial comment isn't even a new thing. Someone asked him what race the kids were a long time ago, and he said "the only race they obviously aren't is black" in his standard formspring flippancy. Even then it didn't really make a lot of sense. I mean, for one thing I don't know a lot of asian people who are blond, like Dave and Rose are, and John explicitly saying Dave is white, even though you could just say that he wouldn't even know since they were just friends over the internet. It could just be he wasn't really thinking of the kids race as being important to the story so he just never considered it. Maybe I'm a sucker, but I'd buy the explanation that he did consider the kids' race and explicitly decided to keep it abstract. With the exception of the lighter-colored hair the kids' original designs, behavior, and lifestyles are so rooted in the abstract and the absurd that it seems reasonable enough to say that they are not necessarily representative of any particular race. And he used to be a lot cagier about Dave/Rose's hair color, too, although admittedly there aren't an awful lot of non-Northern European options there outside of albinism or freakishly early graying. Or originally dye, I guess, although that got nixed in the ectobiology lab. A lot of the problems with the aracial thesis arise from the ectobiology sequence, come to think of it--my memory's fuzzy, but I think maybe on his old old formspring he once mentioned something about the kids' relationships not being set when he initially designed them? Anyhow, that's kind of my point: the problem is, regardless of what Hussie originally set out to do vis a vis the kids' race, there's no denying that over the course of the comic he's sort of painted himself into a white corner. I mean, you can take John's appearance on page 1 and say "This is an abstract person with no racially identifying traits other than non-black skin", but when you get to later flashes where John is rendered with detailed features and with enough color depth that he could have skin tone that argument kind of collapses. That's hardly the only example, either, as evidence by the flare-up over racially identifying language that has crept in.
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Jan 17, 2012 01:56
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Pedantic assholes can't let non-issues lie and now everyone's a racist, nobody is happy and we all go to bed without supper. I guess the moral is that you should never try and please everyone when it comes to something as world shakingly important as cartoon characters.
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Jan 17, 2012 01:59
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This is typical Hussie and it isn't going to prevent me from continuing to read and enjoy his comic, but I think he could have at least waited a day.
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Jan 17, 2012 02:07
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On the bright side, I actually like what he retconned "white" in that Dave conversation to and think it does support the aracial thing he apparently wants to shoot for. I don't really mind that it's a retcon if it actually is an improvement on that front. His response is ridiculous though. Passionate, but sort of over the edge of reason.
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Jan 17, 2012 02:31
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He's handling it better than I would. If I had the entire Homestuck fandom watching my every move I'd be losing my poo poo all the time.
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Jan 17, 2012 02:33
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SynthOrange posted:He's handling it better than I would. If I had the entire Homestuck fandom watching my every move I'd be losing my poo poo all the time. I would freak out. I would, like, live in a box by now, just so I didn't have an address for them to find. But yeah it must be hard. Imagine all the petty disagreements you have with people suddenly being tied to like, the image of your huge and effort-strewn brainchild, especially on a subject as hot as race. I would probably just go silent and that's exactly what a lot of well-known creators do, just to avoid situations like this one. Android Blues fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 17, 2012 02:35
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Android Blues posted:I would freak out. I would, like, live in a box by now. A box...fort?
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Jan 17, 2012 02:35
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MrBims posted:What about the Zillyhoo one? Honestly it feels like a stronger Homestuck composition than Queen Me, and of all of your recent stuff I imagine it being the easiest for Hussie to try to fit an animation to. It maybe doesn't fit the restrictive album theme exactly, but it would be hard to turn it away after listening. I wouldn't pass up the chance of it making it all the way. I wanted to create new songs for the contest that didn't rely on explicitly or heavily or remixing existing compositions by the people on the music team because I felt that it was preventing me from moving forward compositionally, so I don't really want to use older works for the contest. I feel that the truest test of my skill for this contest would be to create a song inspired by Homestuck that wasn't just another remix of Doctor or a medley of Homestuck songs.
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Jan 17, 2012 02:42
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I want to keep on musicstuck, and not racestuck, so I'll just plop this down here. The Auto-Responder theme went down in flames after a computer meltdown. Luckily I had some backups, but it was a dead-end anyway and I need to re-do some things. In the meantime I felt like making something more soothing, and this happened. It still doesn't have a name, and I can't really think of one at the moment. I should mention it's based on Feferi though.
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Jan 17, 2012 02:52
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