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I also think, and this might just be armchair sociology, that the majority of the comic's readers are people with the same racial privilege as Hussie has (if only because nerd culture requires a degree of material participation/attention-payin' participation that white people can afford better than non-white people because, just as an example, a black man makes 74 cents for every dollar a white one makes) and consequently a lot of the discussions of these issues are gonna be sorta privilege-blind.
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Jan 17, 2012 08:41
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Mazerunner posted:But we only have Hussie's word that they are a-racial, which isn't really backed up by their depictions. They all have light skin and Dave and Rose have light hair. Nobodies going to look at them and think, "oh, they are abstract representations that could be of any racial background", they're going to think that they're white. Especially when the actual black people in homestuck are brown. If you add in their backgrounds and characterization the overwhelming interpretation is white people in white culture (or a white person's interpretation of black culture). Well, I have met people who've chosen to think of John and Jade as asian, not my thing, but who are we to say they're wrong. We both agree that Dave is blond yes? I don't believe that's ever been explicitly stated in the story. I know at the time when Hussie canonized it it hadn't. If we were to go by the literal view in the story one would conclude Dave has white hair. Hussie hasn't said that's wrong for you to think that way, but as the author he's decided that Dave is blond. If you accept that, and that Kanaya is a troll lesbian, then it doesn’t seem like a stretch to accept his canon on the kids ethnicities.
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Jan 17, 2012 08:44
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Pleasant Friend posted:We both agree that Dave is blond yes? I don't believe that's ever been explicitly stated in the story. I know at the time when Hussie canonized it it hadn't. If we were to go by the literal view in the story one would conclude Dave has white hair. Actually it was fan-canonized that dave was a redhead and Hussie said "Yeah sure whatever" and then made him officially blonde later on. If you look at some older fanart there's a lot of redheaded Daves.
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Jan 17, 2012 08:58
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Pleasant Friend posted:Well, I have met people who've chosen to think of John and Jade as asian, not my thing, but who are we to say they're wrong. Oh yeah, John and Jade can be read as Asian fairly easily, but you'd rarely find anyone who interpreted them as black. And if you did, then you'd have to consider Nanna and Grandpa as black- possibly changing the nature of their childhood growing up in turn-of-the-century southern USA. Even Grandpa Harley's depiction leans towards the White Big Game Hunter type. Could there be an Asian or Black 'BGH' type dude? Sure, but it's pretty implausible, simply because its a very, very Eurocentric character arch-type. So a lot of readers are going to think, "no way could Jake/Grandpa be anything other than white", and its absurd to consider that racist because that's what the history of that arch-type is. As for the other points, sure there is no canon confirmation that Dave is blond, or Kanaya a lesbian- but they can easily be inferred from the source, without Hussie's indirect comments: -Rose is blonde, Dave and Rose are twins, it follows that Dave is blond as well -Kanaya has only shown romantic interest in women, which reads as potentially bisexual or lesbian, but its not much of leap to choose lesbian. Even her connection to Vampires (and romantic novels about them) has lesbian connotations considering that lesbian vampires was a whole thing in literature for a while- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian_vampire So in those cases we're taking Hussie's word, but its only a confirmation of what we already knew/suspected. Not so much with a-racial kids. Even then, the two statements 'Dave is blond' and 'Dave is a-racial' are mutually exclusive. Either we go with what is reasonable based on the actual work, or we throw out every descriptor based on only the author's word.
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Jan 17, 2012 09:06
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Cyrai posted:As much as this can be derailed, I'm not sure I can agree with this position. Issues like racism, even if this is not racism, are things that can crop up in a huge variety of places that involve every level of society. Those sorts of issues are fixed by confronting them wherever they pop up, not by taking them to a separate forum. FronzelNeekburm fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 17, 2012 09:25
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Mazerunner posted:So in those cases we're taking Hussie's word, but its only a confirmation of what we already knew/suspected. Sockser was right about blond hair Dave being a very controversial choice. It at the time red hair Dave had been almost universally adopted. Like the current headcanon of Gamzee being tallest. This is a similarly controversial, but not logically impossible, idea that Hussie has endorsed all along. Yes, traditional media would cast these characters with white rolls. Also I acknowledge they are living in western, traditionally white households. It’s very reasonable to conclude they’re white. But, when you know the abstract nature of this comic, one where white hair is blond and it is not a 1:1 parallel with earth. How anyone could object to this “aracial” notion? It doesn’t prevent anyone from viewing the characters as they like; it only opens the possibilities, which is more interesting.
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Jan 17, 2012 09:31
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FronzelNeekburm posted:It's strange going from the general Web comics thread, where discussion the past few days has centered on how it is okay for someone dealing with depression to simply be creative from his own perspective, for his own reasons, and not have to be a standard-bearer for all possible advocacy and treatment, to this thread, where a guy writing a story about kids blowing up frog-worlds must, after 6000 pages, "check his privilege" and start portraying real-world cultures and ethnicities in a sensitive and balanced manner. It's not so much about that (well, I'm sure it is for some people) as it is about the idea that these characters are explicitly designed as ethnicity-less. As I said earlier, Hussie's position makes more sense to me now that he's at least acknowledged that they don't come across neutral; but for a while many people were getting the impression that he was completely brushing off any such suggestion and calling them bigots for thinking it. That is problematic and it's not surprising or deplorable that there was a bit of a brouhaha over it.
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Jan 17, 2012 10:08
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FronzelNeekburm posted:It's strange going from the general Web comics thread, where discussion the past few days has centered on how it is okay for someone dealing with depression to simply be creative from his own perspective, for his own reasons, and not have to be a standard-bearer for all possible advocacy and treatment, to this thread, where a guy writing a story about kids blowing up frog-worlds must, after 6000 pages, "check his privilege" and start portraying real-world cultures and ethnicities in a sensitive and balanced manner. Its one of the strengths of the SA subforums is that we can discuss this sort of thing inbetween mass avatar buys.
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Jan 17, 2012 10:37
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FronzelNeekburm posted:It's strange going from the general Web comics thread, where discussion the past few days has centered on how it is okay for someone dealing with depression to simply be creative from his own perspective, for his own reasons, and not have to be a standard-bearer for all possible advocacy and treatment, to this thread, where a guy writing a story about kids blowing up frog-worlds must, after 6000 pages, "check his privilege" and start portraying real-world cultures and ethnicities in a sensitive and balanced manner. Hamiltonian Bicycle hits it on the head, I think; like a lot of these things, the original position isn't too bad; no-one's really made a massive issue of it before. But it's Hussie's reaction to it, and his berserk 'no, have you perhaps consider that it is you who is the racist one' reaction (while leaving his girlfriend to spend hours and hours being conciliatory and understanding for him, nice one Andy  ), is a bit dodgy. All he'd have had to do would be say 'OK, my foul' and it would be OK. It also doesn't look particularly good given his previous portrayals of race (which, however ironic, boils down to 'look at these hilarious looking/talking black people) - while Homestuck alone in a vacuum might be more convincingly 'colorblind' (in itself a dodgy concept, but the most recent response suggests he was trying to do something with that), overall it comes across as a little bit more questionable. I think all of the people in this thread saying 'yeah, what's the big deal' aren't particularly helping - while it's certainly possible to throw around these accusation in bad faith, and troll Hussie (I'm not up on my tumblr culture to know), dismissing someone's uncomfortableness over issues of race and whiteness is a kinda lovely, not to mention goony, thing to do.
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Jan 17, 2012 10:38
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So if Hussie is orange, and he is white, and Davesprite is light orange, then Dave must be nigh-albino, the proof is in the comic. Also explains the sunglasses.
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Jan 17, 2012 11:26
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WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:Hamiltonian Bicycle hits it on the head, I think; like a lot of these things, the original position isn't too bad; no-one's really made a massive issue of it before. But it's Hussie's reaction to it, and his berserk 'no, have you perhaps consider that it is you who is the racist one' reaction (while leaving his girlfriend to spend hours and hours being conciliatory and understanding for him, nice one Andy If the "Minority Perspectives" thread in Games has taught me anything, overanaylzing some semi-hipster's views on race is more goony these days. You mean a guy that writes a webcomic where a character is obsessed with old, 90s era things that white people like (or like making fun of) like mediocre Hollywood movies, Gushers and has a friend who's primary joke is to make lovely, white-sounding raps doesn't have the best nor progressive views on race? What a surprise!  I still don't get why he had to post that response in the first place tho. As others have said, discussing race is pretty much walking on eggshells. Even when he's doing his "hur hur hur I am the smartest and most arrogant man ever" Tumblr/Formspring persona, he should know that there are limits as to what to discuss. The internet is a lot more sensitive about things like race than it has even a few years ago, and responding to a troll post about racism with a mixture of arrogance and "ur the real racist!!!!", along with a dash of ignorance about race, is a big no-no these days. It might've been acceptable or funny a few years back, but today? Hell no. closeted republican fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 17, 2012 11:28
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snucks posted:let me tell you about white people. What the gently caress is this, why does it exist and oh gently caress I'm actually burning with anger that people would actually do something so... I could have died perfectly happy never knowing that this existed. It's a public restaurant for god's sake. ActionZero fucked around with this message at 12:55 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 17, 2012 12:52
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I have never been more interested in the homestuck fanbase than i am now. This series attracts people who tend to enjoy typing giant opinion filled infodumps, but usually its relating to such topics as 'why i think nepeta was the best character' and 'why the troll romance system is an excellent literary device' and 'why my fantrolls are the best.' Now that discussion has had a reason to turn to a real world topic with real world ramifications, its fascinating to see everyone's interpretations and opinions, especially since this is the first time a lot of people may be viewing the infallible hussie as anything other than an authorial god.
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Jan 17, 2012 14:00
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He has probably been saving this one up for a while. Whenever people start talking about how well he's handled gender diversity and sexuality, someone ends up mentioning how ethnic diversity is nil. There's no way that this is the first time he's been faced with this argument. And I don't think many people were expecting him to give this kind of answer when they were so heavy-handed with their criticisms before seeing the full picture. It's important to accurately dissect people's arguments rather than dismissing them as privileged and unworthy of fair analysis. That completely undermines evidence based arguments. It's an unfair presupposition to say that someone like him can never pin his opposition as racist. And it's a fallacy to assume that a minority can never have a racist opinion, even if it's somehow well-meaning or emotionally fueled. One group calls him a racist for making an implicitly white cast, and he provides an argument for why it's racist to assume it's obvious that he intended for the kids to be white. He goes on to say that it isn't cool to undermine the fan artists that think the kids align with a particular race (or weight, or whatever). That's one specific assertion and not just someone screaming "Yer all the racists!" As long as everybody is submitting reasoned arguments, nobody should be accused of dismissing the other's side. Disagreement does not equal dismissal. The race of the individuals participating in this discussion shouldn't even come up because you can cite people of all colors on all sides of the debate. Is it racist for a Taiwanese lesbian(ctrl+f) to agree with Hussie? That's a trick question because this can only be discerned by the strength of Hussie's argument, and what exactly he is arguing for and against. I think some frustration that is occurring has been incited by him quoting that post from Tumblr, suggesting that he only sought to make an example out of this person's wrongness. But he mentioned before quoting it that there was a faction of people who share the opinion of the person he quoted. Sometimes you have to quote someone to fill in your readers about what you're arguing against and so it doesn't look like you're shadow boxing with non-existent opinions. We're getting a strong dose of authorial intent here— something that we don't get from many other authors who write adventure stories as popular as this one. It's cool that he's comfortable with doing that. The ideological rift that this will create is unfortunate, but hopefully the fans can get back to business, which is reading about an apocalyptic creation tale that treats everything humorously. Homestuck still has quite a ways to go. While the play-by-play discussion over authorial decisions is interesting, I don't think anybody should draw stone-etched conclusions about what he's trying to achieve with this story until it's over. ^This too was previously mentioned by Andrew during Hivebent when people thought he wasn't treating sexuality fairly. "Wait until the story is over."
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Jan 17, 2012 14:45
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Pleasant Friend posted:Yes, traditional media would cast these characters with white rolls. Also I acknowledge they are living in western, traditionally white households. Obviously it's possible for individuals with these characteristics and backgrounds to be some race other than white. I think the problem a lot of people are having is the implication that western/caucasian culture is being used as the default blank slate here. It's kind of disingenuous to write kids with european surnames and white suburban cultures and then claim that not only are they supposed to be blank, non racial characters, but that it is actually racist to assume they're meant to be white. Again, not saying the dude's a racist, but I can see where people are coming from here.
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Jan 17, 2012 14:46
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Hussie's first response was a little strange but in my opinion his follow-up post cleared things up. And holy gently caress I wish people would stop caring about this as soon as possible. To change the subject: does it seem to anyone else that Act 6 is again experiencing the same story expansion as what seemingly happened with Act 5 Act 1? Like at start it seemed like Hussie wanted to just speed through all the introductions and plot events, but now we're getting into lengthy non-story pesterlogs and intermissions and comedy portions all over again. And to clarify, I do not think this is a bad thing at all! It's just a little funny seeing Hussie get carried away just like he did before.
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Jan 17, 2012 14:49
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Cukel posted:And to clarify, I do not think this is a bad thing at all! It's just a little funny seeing Hussie get carried away just like he did before. Which probably means Act 6 won't be finished for two years I guess. E: vvv I was thinking of that panel pretty much the whole time during this whole mess. Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 17, 2012 15:02
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What. It's just Hussie. Not perfect, but not a racist either. What's the big deal? We all need to settle down here. I think its a bit odd how people are genuinely arguing the man's intentions and ideals, namely whats going on in his head, as well as the fact that people are jumping ship simply because 'racism', whether it was real or not, was mentioned in regards to Homestuck. His responses are coming from an artistic standpoint, but due to his not caring it comes off as an excuse. Once again, I give him reasonable doubt. He's human. Seriously, racism is an issue. That never stopped being a thing. This, however, isn't nearly as bad as other instances that currently exist. But yeah, this thread feels as though it's slowly spiraling in a direction that one would generally consider A Bad Thing. I'll come back when we all cool down and stop  about Hussie's use of a generalizing word in regards to race.
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Jan 17, 2012 15:07
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Nate RFB posted:Which probably means Act 6 won't be finished for two years I guess. I suppose it's because at first he has just the outline of the plot in his head, but as he introduces new characters he starts to enjoy writing them more and more and comes up with more and more ideas what to do with them. Maybe the Act 6 intermissions are because he learned something from Act 5 Act 1 and wants to counteract the frustration of not getting to read about your favorite old characters for a long time.
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Jan 17, 2012 15:10
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Pleasant Friend posted:Sockser was right about blond hair Dave being a very controversial choice. It at the time red hair Dave had been almost universally adopted. Like the current headcanon of Gamzee being tallest. See, but Dave being blond or Dave being a redhead is a relative non-issue, since neither affect how he interacts with the culture and society around him, since they're both white people hair colours! But yes, attempting to show a-racial kids is a good goal. Its just that what Hussie is considering to be a blank slate- isn't. The characters (kids and guardian versions) are explicitly shown or mentioned as white or light-skinned several times, and they're written very much as white people in white households. And yeah, there's an abstraction of their physical features, but its hard to make the connection that pure white means ANY colour, rather than an abstracted version of lightish skin, especially when say, the Prospitians (white) are coloured the same way, and all the real world white people have matching stylization, but all the real world black people are shown with brown skin. Can you still consider the kids as any race? Sure, but only by overcoming or ignoring the various in-comic cues and hints, and its pretty silly for Hussie (from his position of priviledge) to say that anyone who can't is the real racist. I mean, what does it matter if someone wants to think of Dave as Latino, or Jade as Middle-Eastern or whatever? It doesn't! And nobodies objecting to the notion of a-racial characters in and of itself, but instead to the idea that Hussie has successfully depicted them as a-racial, which many people disagree with. but seriously how can gamzee be the tallest troll? he can't even ride a unicycle!!! that would make everyone else like, three feet tall edit: see but I think its kind of absurd that people think that the conversation is going on too long, or that people care too much, or that its going in a bad place. everyone's been respectful so far and I personally think some meaningful discussion is taking place. one person's mentioned leaving, but maybe they were joking???? if we get to like, Dickwolf levels of terrible or it drags on and on, then yeah, sure shut it down but there's no reason to pre-emptively shut down a civil conversation based on some notion of a hidden time limit Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 17, 2012 15:17
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I find it so hilarious that in all this talk of is hussie racist, isn't he, what does it all mean,   etcetera...people are just dropping the term 'white privilege' like it's nothing. Like that in itself isn't a massively loaded racial term and probably quite offensive TOO. Can't we all just get back to talking about whether we think Gamzee is trying to make the dead bodies have sex with each other or something else equally bizarre?
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Jan 17, 2012 15:33
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Mazerunner posted:See, but Dave being blond or Dave being a redhead is a relative non-issue, since neither affect how he interacts with the culture and society around him, since they're both white people hair colours! Uh, redheads have their own fair share of problems in society. Don't write them off so hastily.
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Jan 17, 2012 15:36
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Did Hussie have a meltdown or something? What the hell is going on here
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Jan 17, 2012 15:43
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Armadillos! posted:people are just dropping the term 'white privilege' like it's nothing. Like that in itself isn't a massively loaded racial term and probably quite offensive TOO. Hahaha, what? No, privilege is a real thing and acknowledging its existence isn't 'probably quite offensive'. Also, pointing out that someone has privilege isn't the same as calling him a racist. Like, at all.
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Jan 17, 2012 15:43
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Armadillos! posted:people are just dropping the term 'white privilege' like it's nothing. Like that in itself isn't a massively loaded racial term and probably quite offensive TOO. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3331921 You should go here to find out more about all the poo poo you, as a white person, are statistically likely to not have to deal with. Because corporations can't get away with basically enslaving you beneath society's noses like they can with black people.
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Jan 17, 2012 15:48
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TOAST7312 posted:But yeah, this thread feels as though it's slowly spiraling in a direction that one would generally consider A Bad Thing.  This is some pretty drat civil discourse we've got going on here, things were much worse when we descended into Vriska Chat.I think more than a few people have nailed it re: the gap between Hussie's intent and the actual results, as well as his reactions, so I'm pretty willing to shrug and move on, provided the minor meltdown doesn't intrude even further into the comic like it did with Troll Romance.
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Jan 17, 2012 15:57
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Mazerunner posted:But yes, attempting to show a-racial kids is a good goal. Its just that what Hussie is considering to be a blank slate- isn't. The characters (kids and guardian versions) are explicitly shown or mentioned as white or light-skinned several times, and they're written very much as white people in white households. And yeah, there's an abstraction of their physical features, but its hard to make the connection that pure white means ANY colour, rather than an abstracted version of lightish skin, especially when say, the Prospitians (white) are coloured the same way, and all the real world white people have matching stylization, but all the real world black people are shown with brown skin. Dave's hair color is the same as his skin color, which is the same color as Jake's jacket/overshirt, which fans usually interpret as darkish green, which is the same color as Jake's shorts, which are khaki, which are the same color as Jade's original skirt, which is typically interpreted as blue, which is the same color as Rose's skirt, which is pink, which is the same color as Dave's pants, which are variously gray or black or blue jeans, except when they're also khaki, which is the color of the kids' old t-shirts, which might be white or might be colored with their associated theme colors. These colors all get filled in by reader expectations, which is, after all, Hussie's argument--there isn't anything necessarily white about John's blank skin except what people put there. Just like his shorts aren't necessarily blue or khaki or whatever people feel like imagining them as, but only a few people seem to picture him as having literally white shorts and I don't think anybody draws John wearing shorts the color of light pink flesh.  The problem, again, is that despite Hussie's original intent he's gradually let this stuff get pinned down, just like Rose/Dave originally had indeterminate nonblack hair color that could very well have been anime blue but eventually got defined as natural blonde. He could have picked a more neutral background color, but the fact remains that John's original sprite is background-colored. Unfortunately this visual nuance gets lost as the rest of the world gets colored in, and John goes from being colorless to distinctly white.
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Jan 17, 2012 16:27
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fake-edit: ^^^^^^^ good points in this post right here I actually read Jade as Asian when she was first introduced and we didn't know what her name was (beyond "Farmstink") and was a bit disappointed to find out her last name was "Harley" rather than "Chiang" or "Nguyen" or "Kimura" or something else appropriately Asian with six letters. Does that make me a Real Racist? Perhaps, but I guess if nothing else this whole thing does reassure me that I wasn't the only one. The character designs are a bit hard to read as black, mostly due to the hair (again, maybe I'm being a Real Racist by saying this and I admit this possibility), but a reading of the Prospit dreamers as any other race would have been possible if their (forum-chosen) names weren't the most blatantly WASPy whitebread sequences of two words imaginable. Blame the MSPAF for that.
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Jan 17, 2012 16:47
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Captain Oblivious posted:http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3331921 You fit your forum name well. Maybe many caucasians have a good shot at a better deal of things. Maybe more so that people of african descent. But that doesn't mean that it's that way for ALL 'whites'. Painting broad strokes about an entire race like that? 
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Jan 17, 2012 16:50
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closeted republican posted:Nannasprite suggesting that there was a previous session with her in it when UU confirmed that there wasn't). Hmmm... I don't remember this ever happening, at all. I agree that handling Jade whole sleeping thing better could be done easily, as it is it seems to really come out of nowhere. There are some other little obvious inconsistencies thought he story too, like Karkat knowing some human movies like Serendipity for example, when the timeframe means there's no way he could have seen it. I think the intermission works fine as is, there are one or two hints throughout the story that suggest SOMETHING is happening before the twist at the end. You see Spades as an exile when they go leaping around the timeline, they have the barcode on their wrists and so on. Not much but enough to make you realise there is a homesuck connection there, well before the end. Mazerunner posted:Like could Dave/Dirk be black? Sure, but most of their supporting characterization is that of a white person who's appropriated bits of black culture. Considering them as black trades that interpretation for one that I think is much worse- I mean, they live in a lovely apartment, obsessed with rap/mixing, no parents, settle disputes with violence, brother produces pornography, etc. lovely apartment? In B1 at least Bro makes a few thousand dollars a month and owns the entire top floor of their apartment block, the apartment doesn't seem that lovely. Mazerunner posted:See, but Dave being blond or Dave being a redhead is a relative non-issue, since neither affect how he interacts with the culture and society around him, since they're both white people hair colours! Here in Scotland, those ginger fuckers are treated like the scum of the earth they are. Unless Dave's social position reflected the daily beatings he'd receive, I wouldn't find Dave sociological background to be in any way realistic or convincing!
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Jan 17, 2012 16:53
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Gabriel Pope posted:Dave's hair color is the same as his skin color, which is the same color as Jake's jacket/overshirt, which fans usually interpret as darkish green, which is the same color as Jake's shorts, which are khaki, which are the same color as Jade's original skirt, which is typically interpreted as blue, which is the same color as Rose's skirt, which is pink, which is the same color as Dave's pants, which are variously gray or black or blue jeans, except when they're also khaki, which is the color of the kids' old t-shirts, which might be white or might be colored with their associated theme colors. These colors all get filled in by reader expectations, which is, after all, Hussie's argument--there isn't anything necessarily white about John's blank skin except what people put there. Just like his shorts aren't necessarily blue or khaki or whatever people feel like imagining them as, but only a few people seem to picture him as having literally white shorts and I don't think anybody draws John wearing shorts the color of light pink flesh.   Maybe you are arguing that his concept just doesn't work because people will draw the conclusion that they are Caucasian anyway, or that Hussie has underlying opinions about their skin tones and hair. I don't think he literally means that he doesn't have a vision for what he feels the characters would look like in color. He has said that he imagines Dave is blonde and was surprised by how much red-headed Dave fanart there is out there. But that's an observation, not a command. People still do other things with the characters, whether implying that their vision is canon, or are just having fun with what-if scenarios for the characters.  And that's pretty freakin' cool. Spellman fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 17, 2012 16:59
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Prison Warden posted:Hmmm... I don't remember this ever happening, at all. I think that was about this page - Nannasprite implies the echeladder was relevant in her youth, which I suppose could be interpreted as a misplaced reference to Jane's adventures. Armadillos! posted:You fit your forum name well. Maybe many caucasians have a good shot at a better deal of things. Maybe more so that people of african descent. But that doesn't mean that it's that way for ALL 'whites'. Are you really doing this? Really?
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Jan 17, 2012 17:00
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Armadillos! posted:You fit your forum name well. Maybe many caucasians have a good shot at a better deal of things. Maybe more so that people of african descent. But that doesn't mean that it's that way for ALL 'whites'. Please don't do this. Arguing against privilege is way beyond the scope of this thread or even this subforum, and you're going to be fighting a frustrating (for everyone), uphill battle if this is how you are going to approach the topic anyway. There is no shortage of people willing to talk about it over PM over relevant threads.
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Jan 17, 2012 17:00
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Gabriel Pope posted:
This is really the thing. In, say, Problem Sleuth, it wasn't so much of an issue because everyone was literally a stick figure. They could be "aracial" insofar as they were all (game) abstractions prior to being characters, as evidenced by their names. (The sole exception, I guess, might be Fiesta Ace Dick? Who became a parody of a stereotype, I guess?) There's a way in which the PS characters can go without race, anyway, because in a vague way they aren't even human. This is why I partially buy Hussie's idea of his initial "aracial" conception -- if he could do it in the previous Adventure, why not this one? Well, because the character of these characters superseded their abstraction. They're not stick figures, and they have names, and most of all, they're recognizably human. The level of verisimilitude is upped, and even if they all begin as little abstractions, the depth, complexity, and length of Homestuck has assured that all of the signifiers Andrew intended to "float" have instead been collectively quilted with implicit racial identities. EDIT: In retrospect the best way to have handled this, if Andrew wanted the kids to be "aracial", is to make it both explicit and a running joke. Make the kids and the narrator consistently evasive about their race in obvious or absurd ways -- what he seems to want, retroactively, with the scrambled "white" reference to Bro. Think of the way Springfield in The Simpsons is geographically everywhere and nowhere in the US, and it's constantly pointed out. Of course it's a lot easier to do this with place rather than with race, but anyway: this whole episode demonstrates why trying to keep issues of race "open" by just not addressing them is not the best plan. EDIT 2 \/\/\/: Yeah, the Trolls actually fill out my above suggestion fairly well. The hemospectrum is their basis for racial construction (blood as opposed to skin color) and it's constantly treated as ridiculous bullshit. H.P. Shivcraft fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 17, 2012 17:06
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Spellman posted:I follow, but there is a difference between white and Caucasian. Here are two Caucasian Easter Eggberts that have different skin hues. Yeah, that is interesting, and honestly seeing the various interpretations of the Trolls as humans people have is really, really loving awesome. But that's the thing, the trolls, with their yellow eyes, uniform grey skin and hair, pull off a-racial far better than the kids do. Like the black Rose there is a very cool take on the character, but its very much a 'what if', since she's been canonically shown to have blonde hair. I guess you could still read Rose as black, but stuff like her being blond, or described as pinkish and whatnot will be far more jarring, to the point that people will revise their perception of her to be white.
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Jan 17, 2012 17:18
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:provided the minor meltdown doesn't intrude even further into the comic like it did with Troll Romance. People keep bringing up Troll Romance like it was some kind of incident. Is there some story behind this that I'm not aware of? I thought the joke was just that it's a ridiculous way for a society to be structured and an affectionate parody of shippers' obsession with pairing off characters in weird ways. Same with the Attic I guess, anyone care to explain that? also: Commutator posted:Totally loving that this is happening on MLK day. It must have been the spirit of that illustrious civil rights crusader that moved Hussies hand to retcon Dave to not be white! Equality has at last been achieved. Hussie posted:It’s like I was suddenly possessed and spurred to passionate oration by MLK’s legendary ghost. Nailed it.
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Jan 17, 2012 19:57
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Commutator posted:People keep bringing up Troll Romance like it was some kind of incident. Is there some story behind this that I'm not aware of? I thought the joke was just that it's a ridiculous way for a society to be structured and an affectionate parody of shippers' obsession with pairing off characters in weird ways. Short version: during Hivebound people were getting antsy because the story wasn't moving along very briskly and instead of finding out about all the cliffhangers we left the kids on we were learning about these 12 alien dumbasses, and also their completely stupid romance system what the hell Hussie? Hey why are you even bringing romance into this comic canonically anyway this is terrible you have ruined Homestuck forever!!!!! This necessitated Andrew stepping in (with the Attic interlude) to say hold on to your loving horses folks because this is my story and I'm telling it at the pace I want with the elements I want.
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Jan 17, 2012 20:08
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Mazerunner posted:Like the black Rose there is a very cool take on the character, but its very much a 'what if', since she's been canonically shown to have blonde hair. I guess you could still read Rose as black, but stuff like her being blond, or described as pinkish and whatnot will be far more jarring, to the point that people will revise their perception of her to be white. The blonde hair thing could be explained by saying she dyed it. It's not unusual for black women to dye their hair blonde.  quote:as well as the fact that people are jumping ship simply because 'racism', whether it was real or not, was mentioned in regards to Homestuck. It's just your average internet overreaction to something that people don't like. Give them a few days, and I'm sure almost all of them will be fanatic about it again.
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Jan 17, 2012 20:09
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Armadillos! posted:You fit your forum name well. Maybe many caucasians have a good shot at a better deal of things. Maybe more so that people of african descent. But that doesn't mean that it's that way for ALL 'whites'. Society overwhelmingly favors white heterosexual males. Deal with it. Anyhow, does anyone have a link to whatever Hussie said that sparked this...whatever this is?
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Jan 17, 2012 20:20
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Captain Oblivious posted:Society overwhelmingly favors white heterosexual males. Deal with it. Just the last three posts on his tumblr.
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Jan 17, 2012 20:22
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