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Engineer Lenk posted:The only reason I like to differentiate between wait and stay is so I won't poison my cue - my dog has a bit of a creeping start-line 'wait' in agility. I've found that wait (until I tell you you're free to go) is a bit trickier to reinforce and proof than stay (right there until I get back to you and release you). Maybe it's because I'm not familiar with agility commands, but I don't really understand what you mean? You're saying wait is a long distance type cue where as stay means stay put until you are physically back with the dog?
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Jan 18, 2012 02:00
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Ginny Field posted:We have been making an effort to keep things calm, and I have Ginny tethered so I can gently pull her back when I see her start to show signs of excitement. We have been bringing them together for short intervals and praising the hell out of them for positive body language, sniffs and tail wags, and then separating them again. You want to be very careful with tethering and pulling on an over-excited dog because if it is associated with something bad (stopping play, being forced to disengage) it can lead to leash reactivity. I personally use tethering as well, but after seeing how pulling on a leash, even gently, started triggering reactivity in my dog, I started really working on desensitizing her to pulling by doing it randomly and treating. I also worked a ton on backaways, which is where I take a few steps back and call my dog so that she will come over and sit in front of me voluntarily. Backing away excitedly works better than just calling, though you can certainly work on that as well. If you can get Ginny to come without pulling, that is the best thing (even if you still need a leash as a cue, my dog comes when I pick up her leash, which we still use for safety reasons). several wet dogs posted:Japanese Spitz!!!! I have never read that particular Ian Dunbar thing, but I understand how frustrating it can be when people tell you that things need to go perfectly or else all is lost. My dog is super reactive and people were always telling me that one freak out would set her back years. Since, for a while, she was having a freakout a day, this was not encouraging. I felt much better when I decided that life wasn't perfect and I couldn't control everything. So take the book parts from the book and ignore anything that stresses you out because it will hurt more than help. I own an American Eskimo and I believe they are similar in temperament to the Japanese Spitz (they certainly look the same!). Eskies are pretty sensitive, harsh training methods and other trauma can get to them more readily than a more easy-going breed. So I would be careful, don't push your dog, and do counter-conditioning when necessary. When we first got my dog, she was very aggressive about getting attention from us. She would get over-excited and jump and nip at us. If she didn't get attention or what she wanted, she would nip and bark and ignoring her did nothing. So we decided to use time-outs. She was put in the bathroom (we used a tether for a long time until she learned to go in there when directed) and that was her 'calm' space. If she calmed, she was let back out. This did wonders for her anxiety as she was always barking at windows. In addition to timeouts, I played a lot of 'sit quietly' games. She would often demand attention when I was sitting at my desk working, by jumping on me and scratching at my arms. So I would sit with treats and throw her one whenever she sat or laid down. I also taught her to sit for attention. It took consistency for a couple months, but now she sits by my chair and waits patiently for me to give her attention or lays under my desk if she doesn't need something. So I would try teaching some alternate behaviors and using time-outs for really obnoxious behavior. You can also play calming games where you ramp your dog up with play and then ask then for a down in a relaxed position (as you are doing with sits). The trick is to actually train your dog to get in a relaxed position (by rewarding them for relaxing 'accidentally') instead of just holding a jittery sit or down. Those things should help you with the over-excitement, but you also just want to keep an eye out for growing reactivity. Try to learn your dogs body language and assess whether your dog is stressed. If stressed, then try counter-conditioning and don't push your dog in stressful situations, let her retreat instead. Your trainer should be able to help you assess if your dog is just over-excited or is becoming a bit fearful. Also, where are my Japanese Spitz pictures???
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Jan 18, 2012 02:18
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Toxx posted:Maybe it's because I'm not familiar with agility commands, but I don't really understand what you mean? You're saying wait is a long distance type cue where as stay means stay put until you are physically back with the dog? Exactly. This was actually a holdover from my CGC class- the instructor suggested it because it's easier to bomb-proof the stay when the dog is expecting you to come back and reward in the stay. I also tend to change the excitement level around the two commands - wait is really high-energy, with the intent that the dog will book it as soon as they're released.
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Jan 18, 2012 02:21
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Kiri koli posted:You want to be very careful with tethering and pulling on an over-excited dog because if it is associated with something bad (stopping play, being forced to disengage) it can lead to leash reactivity. I personally use tethering as well, but after seeing how pulling on a leash, even gently, started triggering reactivity in my dog, I started really working on desensitizing her to pulling by doing it randomly and treating. I also worked a ton on backaways, which is where I take a few steps back and call my dog so that she will come over and sit in front of me voluntarily. Backing away excitedly works better than just calling, though you can certainly work on that as well. If you can get Ginny to come without pulling, that is the best thing (even if you still need a leash as a cue, my dog comes when I pick up her leash, which we still use for safety reasons). Thanks for this, I honestly never considered that it could lead to leash reactivity. Ginny is very in tune with me, so I can usually just make a noise or say her name when I see her starting to fixate on Burt and she will break away from him and return to my side. She's very interested in him, but tends to rush at him with her tail wagging, which puts him on the defensive. And she's kind of an idiot about doggy body language, so she doesn't get his "back the hell off" signals and instead gets pissed off when he sasses back at her. I can easily call her off when she notices him and rushes at him of her own accord, but an external event like a doorbell ringing puts them both in a zone where I might as well not exist. I like the idea of backing away excitedly, because I can guarantee that it will catch Ginny's attention and she'll probably think of it as a game. Should I be treating her when she disengages from Burt as well as when she behaves appropriately towards him?
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Jan 18, 2012 03:24
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Ginny Field posted:I like the idea of backing away excitedly, because I can guarantee that it will catch Ginny's attention and she'll probably think of it as a game. Should I be treating her when she disengages from Burt as well as when she behaves appropriately towards him? I would definitely treat her when she disengages because it's basically her recalling to you despite a strong distraction. I would also probably attempt to reward her for responding to 'back the hell off' signals appropriately without your intervention. I know that you can capture and use calming signals to get a dog to relax, so I would imagine you can also train appropriate responses to other dog's giving a signal. This is moving into theoretical territory for me though because I've never owned two dogs at once, so maybe someone else can help on the rewarding appropriate play/behavior with more than one dog present issue. If Ginny likes games, you can also turn 'Touch' into an exciting recall. Teach Ginny to really enthusiastically smash your hand with her nose and then start doing it from a distance. If she likes jumping, you can put your hand up high. My dog loves Touch and will run over and jump/twist all over the place to get at my hand.
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Jan 18, 2012 03:52
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Kiri koli posted:I have never read that particular Ian Dunbar thing, but I understand how frustrating it can be when people tell you that things need to go perfectly or else all is lost. My dog is super reactive and people were always telling me that one freak out would set her back years. Since, for a while, she was having a freakout a day, this was not encouraging. I felt much better when I decided that life wasn't perfect and I couldn't control everything. So take the book parts from the book and ignore anything that stresses you out because it will hurt more than help. Interestingly, after making this post my other housemate came home, who Pomegranate usually chases into the garden to bark at. I decided to back off and observe and after some mild curiosity and one or two barks at the watering can he calmed down and I successfully called him back to me. My housemate was adding a gate to the garden fence and I managed to get Pomegranate to ignore it almost completely while we played a game of fetch (when we put up the fence it didn't go so smoothly). I think it's possible he's been picking up on my anxiety, and in retrospect I do tend to stand up suddenly when people enter the kitchen to stop him from getting through the door. I might try sticking with this hands off approach until he gets out of hand again. I already praise him when ever he's sitting quietly beside me or calmly enjoying a toy but I'll try upping the ante with those games, thanks! I also want to teach him the speak/quiet command but I'm afraid he'll wind up barking more hoping for treats, haha. I haven't been taking as many pictures as I should, but here's one I managed to get before he tried to eat the camera: 
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Jan 18, 2012 04:17
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I'm having trouble training my pitbull Daisy to lay down on command. I've been using a clicker to train her to sit, stay, leave it, and crate but I just can't seem to lure her to get into a down position. I've tried luring her with using the downward "L" across her nose and out but she either just ends up bending down and sniffing at my hand and then licking my face or physically gets up to get it when it gets farther than she can sniff. Am I stuck with trying to capture the position when she's lying down naturally? She's always either in her crate or on the futon next to my desk when she's in a natural down position. Would clicking for this just lead to encouraging her to be in the crate/on the futon? I want to capture the behavior but not in context with the location.
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Jan 18, 2012 13:34
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several wet dogs posted:I haven't been taking as many pictures as I should, but here's one I managed to get before he tried to eat the camera: Sooo cute.  It sounds like you're going to be fine, I just want to stress that you are absolutely correct that your anxious will filter down to your dog. One of my books about reactivity (Click to Calm, I think?) actually starts out in the intro talking about how the author was always anticipating her dog's reactions and tensing up or pulling on the leash. The dog picks up on that and is then guaranteed to react, which just reinforces the owner's own anxiety. It's often unconscious and I've heard many times that dogs make a ton of progress when their owners realize what they're doing and cut it out. So definitely stick with a relaxed approach. As far as teaching speak, it's one of those cues with you want to make sure you only reward when you ask for it, so as not to spiral into your dog barking just because sometimes it randomly gets him a treat. Most dogs would get that, I think, though there are plenty of other reasons they might bark.
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Jan 18, 2012 14:51
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I started teaching Oliver "watch me" by rewarding for eye contact. I took him outside to the back of our apartment parking lot, and had success in using treats to distract him from people walking past and trying to reinforce "Watch me" when he started focusing on someone. The parking lot setup worked well since the people walking past were close enough he could see them but far enough away he didn't get too excited. I'd like to try to teach him to "watch me" and focus on me and/or my bf when someone passes us on the sidewalk, rather than get all intense about the person. Also, I'm having the same trouble as Sagers in teaching "down". He already knows sit, but I haven't been able to lure him into a down without his butt popping off the ground. After a few attempts he just seems to give up like he think I'm teasing him 
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Jan 18, 2012 16:05
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For people having difficulty teaching 'down', try propping up one leg so that it makes a 'tunnel', with the dog on one side and treat on the other, so that the dog would have to lie down to crawl under. It's how I taught Lola, because when she was younger she was too small to get it the traditional way.
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Jan 18, 2012 16:10
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Down issue havers, have you tried capturing it? I've found if you start rewarding them for an action they do normally they are a lot more likely to offer it during training. You can also shape it slowly by rewarding any small movement towards lying down starting with the head moving down, then the elbows starting to bend, when both shoulders move down, then finally they should eventually offer a full down. You can also try luring the dog under your leg so they are forced to go down in order to get through. Reward as soon as the shoulders go down and fade out the leg as soon as your dog starts to get it. All of these methods are outlined here (you might have to scroll up a bit).
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Jan 18, 2012 16:16
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rivals posted:I need some advice on recent changes in Kaidan's behavior. I've never really thought he had separation anxiety but I think he might be developing it (?) but I'm not sure. The worst that's happened before is that he didn't do well in his crate for a couple weeks right after we moved to this house (over a year ago now), and of course if he doesn't get enough exercise which has only happened once because something came up and we had to leave the house on short notice so we have a hole in the carpet to show for that one. Yeah, it sounds like he might be uncomfortable. Maybe consult a vet to talk about pain management. How does the muscle look in his back end? Still there? Or is it decreasing? I recently picked up an exercise ball for Cohen, and I think you could probably get some benefit out of it for Kaidan too. It's like a giant yoga peanut thing from Fit Paws. If you're interested I can give you a link. They work by gently exercising muscles with minimum impact, which is probably what a dysplastic dog needs. BeavisNuke posted:I didn't want to make a new thread for this so I thought I'd ask the community here: So, as you've been told by now, alpha rolling your dog is not helpful. What I believe you're experiencing is bitch aggression - it's common in GSDs, and can pop up in any breed. It won't get any better without proper professional help. And, unfortunately, any professional I've talked to about bitch aggression has told me that it's their least favourite issue to deal with since it can be so finicky and often impossible to fully resolve. So go talk to a professional, and keep your dogs separated until then. When they fight the stress that is brought about by the squabble hangs around for days afterwards, making them more likely to fight again. This can be a very serious problem, and you're not well equipped to deal with it. Toxx posted:
Your Petsmart trainer sounds like he/she sucks. I've heard rather positive things about some locations' trainers, and the chain itself uses reinforcement-based methods to teach, but... yeah, I would not continue with them beyond what you've already paid for. I've never heard about walking into a dog to get it to sit from a down. It sounds awkward and confusing for the dog. In my classes we lure dogs from a down to a sit, then quickly fade the lure. I would do it your way, and if your girlfriend wants to it her way, so be it. My money is on you getting better, more reliable results faster. Regarding sit/stay/wait, it's up to you. With my dog, sit means sit until I release in formal training situations (and down means down until, stand means stand until...). She also understands stay and sometimes I use it interchangeably. I never bothered training wait. As for as command intonation goes, all my cues with my dog are quiet and soft sounding (I'm not a loud person to begin with). My hand signals are barely flips of the wrist, and most of the time people across the room can't hear my verbal cues - and yet my dog responds very well. She responds so well because I didn't need to convince her I meant business - I convinced her she wanted to what I said. You can do the same via careful control of reinforcement and using loads of games and other fun motivation during training.
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Jan 18, 2012 17:06
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That post was getting long, so I've broken it into two.Ginny Field posted:We just adopted a second dog, a seven-year-old beagle named Burt. He and Ginny got along fabulously at the shelter; romping and playing in the exercise pen like old friends. When I was introducing a new dog into my house I kept them completely separated for a good 3 weeks or more. I think your guys need more time just getting used to another dog being there before you let them mingle together again. Work on playing with Ginny while the new dog is present but separate so he can get used to her excitement levels. This may take several days/weeks of intense effort. Also work on desensitizing each of them to the other's noises. If one barks, grumbles, growls or groans, toss the other a treat. Sagers posted:I'm having trouble training my pitbull Daisy to lay down on command. I've been using a clicker to train her to sit, stay, leave it, and crate but I just can't seem to lure her to get into a down position. Try using more valuable treats if she gives up following the lure. Work on a soft, warm surface. Move the treat in an "L" shape (as you are) but consider putting the L on a bit of an angle so you're pushing the treat a bit into her chest, then pulling it out. Move the treat SLOWLY. If you decide to try capturing it, try it in a room where things are boring and she might lay down on her own. Obviously the moment she does you need to mark it, jackpot like crazy, and reset the exercise quickly. If you're finding the dog pops up out of a down too quickly, feed a long line of treats one after the other while it's in proper position, and try to get that release in (okay!) before the dog pops up on its own. Again make sure you're on a soft warm surface so the dog's happier to stay there longer.
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Jan 18, 2012 17:22
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a life less posted:Yeah, it sounds like he might be uncomfortable. Maybe consult a vet to talk about pain management. How does the muscle look in his back end? Still there? Or is it decreasing? I recently picked up an exercise ball for Cohen, and I think you could probably get some benefit out of it for Kaidan too. It's like a giant yoga peanut thing from Fit Paws. If you're interested I can give you a link. They work by gently exercising muscles with minimum impact, which is probably what a dysplastic dog needs. His muscles have been staying really strong, I've been walking him 2+ miles a day on soft ground. I'm just having a hard time reconciling the fact that he doesn't behave like this if one of us is in the living room at all, but yeah I'll try giving him Rimadyl more often and seeing if that helps. If you could share a link for that it would be great. We have an old egge we got Eris a long time ago and Kaidan never showed interest in it, maybe if this is a bit different we can try to get him interested in it. On a slight derail, I think we're aiming this coming summer or next winter for his surgery, not sure yet if they'll want to do one side or both. We have a lot of big life stuff coming up that won't allow us to do it earlier, sadly.
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Jan 18, 2012 18:24
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rivals posted:His muscles have been staying really strong, I've been walking him 2+ miles a day on soft ground. I'm just having a hard time reconciling the fact that he doesn't behave like this if one of us is in the living room at all, but yeah I'll try giving him Rimadyl more often and seeing if that helps. If you could share a link for that it would be great. We have an old egge we got Eris a long time ago and Kaidan never showed interest in it, maybe if this is a bit different we can try to get him interested in it. On a slight derail, I think we're aiming this coming summer or next winter for his surgery, not sure yet if they'll want to do one side or both. We have a lot of big life stuff coming up that won't allow us to do it earlier, sadly. I got mine from Clean Run when they were having a free shipping sale. You might be able to find one locally for cheaper. They're still unreasonably expensive. If you don't think it's pain-related you can try to manage him so you don't set him up for his apparent behaviour chains. It could be weather related (the cold may exacerbate the pain, or he may be more energetic because of it). Try more time-killing chews, and otherwise keeping him busier in his down time.
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Jan 18, 2012 18:54
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Thanks for the link and the suggestions! Those balls look pretty cool so I might pick one up for him. I'll definitely be trying some various things. It's been difficult lately because our backyard is unusable but we're looking to move within the next couple months so a lot of stuff will be easier and more fun again. We can't take him to the dog park so he really hasn't had a chance to just go all out and run in a really long time. I've been looking for hydrotherapy locations nearby but the only one in the immediate area closed in 09, the next closest ones seem to be an hour+ away.
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Jan 18, 2012 19:39
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a life less posted:Thank you, that clarified a lot of what I had been thinking.
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Jan 19, 2012 08:33
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I have a dog, border collie mix, 14 months old. I also have two cats, a friendly large one and a not so friendly small one. The big guy is 8-ish (we have had him since '04, and I think he was a bit under a year when he strolled into our yard) and the little one is 13-ish. There have always been some altercations with the cats, who did not like the idea of a dog. Then the big one decided that a puppy was really a kind of cat toy and he could bat it around, and the dog is always ready for any kind of play, so that kind of worked. But the other cat really hates that dog. Now most of the time they coexist to the point that they can all three sleep on the couch at the same time, just inches from each other. But at other times the dog acts aggressive, particularly toward the smaller cat. All the cats I've had in the past have been able to defend themselves well from all the dogs I've had, and in fact the dogs were a little nervous about the cats and gave them respect. But this dog does not. A couple of times recently he's basically gone after the smaller cat with lots of snarling and barking. Now. When he's done that, my husband has corrected him and yelled at him. I don't know if that's the right thing to do, because I have heard that you shouldn't correct dogs that way when they do aggressive things because they will learn to hide their early stages of aggression, but all the examples I've found have to do with people (i.e., they hide the early stages, then they bite somebody). Does this work for cats too? I should note that the cats have high places to jump to, and they have claws. (Every once in awhile they will fight each other, rather noisily, and this is the kind of thing that will definitely attract the dog as if he wants to get in on it. And then he gets yelled at.)
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Jan 19, 2012 10:10
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a life less posted:When I was introducing a new dog into my house I kept them completely separated for a good 3 weeks or more. I think your guys need more time just getting used to another dog being there before you let them mingle together again. Work on playing with Ginny while the new dog is present but separate so he can get used to her excitement levels. This may take several days/weeks of intense effort. Also work on desensitizing each of them to the other's noises. If one barks, grumbles, growls or groans, toss the other a treat. Thanks, that's very helpful. We had a good day yesterday; everyone was calm and they sniffed each other a few times through the gate. I look forward to seeing them play again the way they did the first afternoon at the shelter, but right now it's way more important to me to get him integrated into the household with the least amount of stress on everyone. I really like your suggestion of letting Ginny get good and riled up while he's present but separate. I'm going to get to work on that tonight when I get home.
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Jan 19, 2012 11:55
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Rhymes With Clue posted:Now. When he's done that, my husband has corrected him and yelled at him. I don't know if that's the right thing to do, because I have heard that you shouldn't correct dogs that way when they do aggressive things because they will learn to hide their early stages of aggression, but all the examples I've found have to do with people (i.e., they hide the early stages, then they bite somebody). Does this work for cats too? I should note that the cats have high places to jump to, and they have claws. (Every once in awhile they will fight each other, rather noisily, and this is the kind of thing that will definitely attract the dog as if he wants to get in on it. And then he gets yelled at.) You're pretty much right. If he keeps getting punished around the cat, he'll start to associate a negative experience with the cat. What I would start doing is praising and treating whenever he is calm around the cat. If he glances at the cat but doesn't go for it, treat/praise, and so on. Ideally don't have them in a situation where you know the dog will/can go after the cat. If he looks like he's about to go for the cat, distract him and redirect him to something else (like playing with a toy, or whatever else he really likes). I don't really have much in the way of experience of keeping a dog from pestering a cat because mine is good about leaving them alone, so if anyone has some better advice please chime in.
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Jan 19, 2012 16:39
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So my dog has picked up a weird behavior in the past 6 months that I want to stop. We always keep a bowl of food out for the dog and she just seems to eat when she is hungry; She has access to food basically continually. The doctor has never mentioned her being over/under weight, and is in pretty good health. There hasn't been any recent changes in the house or her life. Ever since we brought her home (5 years ago) she has had the habit of hoarding dog treats in out of the way nooks. In couch cushions, under drapes, basically anywhere we don't commonly traffic. She recently took it up a notch. She takes a few pieces of kibble and stashes them around. The problem is that she will end up leaving them in walkways or on the hardwood floors in addition to furniture. These are brown kibbles on dark floors, so they're basically invisible until you step on them. Someone likened it to a kid leaving lego blocks around, they hurt a lot. How can I stop this behavior? I don't see any obvious reason for her to be doing this
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Jan 20, 2012 04:16
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I forgot to mention we tired restricting her food to breakfast/lunch/dinner times and the first thing she does with the new bowl of food is hoard
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Jan 20, 2012 04:24
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I would recommend you switch to scheduled feedings. I don't see a way to really train this out, but you can manage it by simply not leaving out excess unwanted food. Put food down, leave it out for 15 minutes and pick up whatever is left over, repeat again next meal. After a few days of this most dogs pick up on the new schedule pretty well. Free feeding devalues food, which is one of the most powerful tools we have for dog training, so in general I try to discourage the practice. So, I'm biased. Also, vets are kind of lovely about talking to clients about their overweight dogs. If you want an honest opinion feel free to post photos up here and we'll let you know.  Edit: Seeing your 2nd post, try feeding her in a crate then (or a closed room), so she can't wander. a life less fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Jan 20, 2012 |
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Jan 20, 2012 04:28
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Urgh I have a problem. Lola has never really liked the vacuum. I did desensitising out the rear end with her when she was a pup, and she never really progressed past the point where she was okay to hang out while I vacuumed but would move if it came within a metre or so. I always made a point of never chasing her with it either. Then a couple of weeks ago, Lola was in her crate and decided she wanted a toy or bone (can't remember) that Jess had picked up. She shot out, and ran right into the vacuum as I was liftin it up (it was still running). She screeched and fled to the other side of the room. We took it slow. She would be on one side of the room while I hoovered the other, then we'd swap. She seemed okay and would play with Jess. Then I got ill, and didn't vacuum for about 5-6 days as opposed to my usual daily routine. She's regressed pretty badly. Pacing, unable to settle even when the vacuum was at the other side of the room. Unable (or unwilling) to chew the peanut butter smeared kong or chew bone I gave her, which she usually loves. I finally tried smearing a small handful of peanut butter across the entirety of my palm and fingers and she was willing to lick that (whilst I had the vacuum on and moving slowly at arm's length) but she nipped quite a lot and wasn't willing to stay for long. She probably licked the pb for about two minutes total and then got too upset and moved away to pace and shake. I don't know what else to try  the only other thing I can think of doing is just taking her out of the room whenever I have to vacuum. It's too depressing seeing her tremble and pace and cower, and it can't be good for her general state of mind if that happens daily. Urgh.
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Jan 20, 2012 14:51
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Fraction posted:She probably licked the pb for about two minutes total and then got too upset That could be your problem. I think you'd probably be best doing desensitisation sessions for 30 secs max. One minute + would probably put just about any dog into overload. Do you have another room to put her in while you vacuum in the meantime? A yard? She'll bounce back eventually I'm sure.
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Jan 20, 2012 15:52
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I'll try the feedings in a cage, thanks!
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Jan 20, 2012 16:46
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NotHet posted:I'll try the feedings in a cage, thanks! Another thing you can do is put the kibble in a food-dispensing toy, like a tricky treat ball or kong wobbler. If you make the meal a game, it might up the sense of urgency to eat it.
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Jan 20, 2012 19:13
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So I'd like to get some opinions on something. We were bad with Psyche and her crate, so now, while she's fine with being in the crate, she is reluctant to go in it. We currently have the crate upstairs in a room that we basically never go in and now she's in there when we're not home. She used to sleep in there at night but now she sleeps in our bedroom. So to make us more motivated to play crate games and work on her issues, I'm going to move the crate downstairs to the living room. This brought up another issue in that we are working on her people skills and specifically her liking at least one person who will be able to watch her when we travel (one of our trainers, for now). Sooner or later that person will need to be able to work with Psyche in the crate, putting her in and letting her out. This is a long way off, but we definitely can't leave it for the last minute, get everything else working, and then go oops, Psyche freaks out whenever anyone approaches her crate. So, for now, crate will be in living room and when we have people over, we will move it to another room. She's used to people being over while she's crated out of sight. So first I'll move her to another room downstairs with the door closed. People will occasionally go to the bathroom next to that room, but otherwise won't be around there. Then once she's good with that, maybe I'll leave the door cracked (I've done this upstairs already). So my question is, do I go a step further than that? I know that seeing people while she's crated is going to be a big issue. During our training sessions, we'll definitely work on crate stuff, but will it help otherwise to work her up to occasionally seeing our guests when we have people over while crated? Or will that just stress her the hell out without any gain? She does bark at guests at first, though not for very long anymore and not if she's tired. I imagine if she can see them and they do something startling, she will bark and maybe freak out. We would obviously do that part very slowly, having her in a position to see people only for a very short time at first. She also doesn't do much in her crate and will often ignore anything I give her to chew or play with.
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Jan 20, 2012 20:52
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Hey PI, long time lurker here who's having some dog related issues. Through PI I've managed to get my current dog to go from a gigantic reactive wuss with no leash skills to a fairly well behaved dog who knows how to play a lot of fun games and control herself when there's tempting squirrels afoot. She's not my problem, this new little dog Rascal is. We got a call from our local rescue asking us if we could foster a sweet JRT mix right before New Years, and we decided that as long as he was fine with Ginger then it could all work out. So far, interaction wise they're fine, he plays a little too rough with her on occasion but that's not our issue. He does not seem to be fully house trained. I contacted the rescue and they said it had not been an issue with the family that had him before ( he was adopted, but two young children chasing him around proved to be too much). They also said he was fantastically crate trained which may have been the case before he was adopted but not so much now. I have a feeling that the family was using his crate as a form of punishment or just always keeping him in there. I toss food, chewies, and tasty bones in there for him and while he'll go in there and grab it out I cannot get him to stay in there for any amount of time. I have no intention of forcing him into it so I've just been praising him every time he looks/goes into it. That however is not the main issue, which is the peeing. I can take a few accidents every now and then, but this is starting to drive me crazy. Even if we don't end up adopting Rascal (which probably wont happen, I love this little dog too much to let him go) I really want him to have as best a shot in a new environment as possible and I think that means no pee. Scheduel wise, I wake up at 7, take both dogs out as promptly as possible, then food. I put down the water bowl for 30 minutes at a time, generally when there's food or super exciting play time involved. I try to take him out every two hours so he can get into a routine, but on days where I work that time is extended to four hours. On those days it's a miracle if I can come home to an accident free apartment, while if there's someone around all day there's no issues at all. I'm fairly sure it's not a bladder size problem, he's gone for more than two hours and has not peed on anything. Please PI, help me out! He hasn't even been here a month and I've gone through two bottles of Nature's Miracle so far.
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Jan 21, 2012 15:52
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Kiri koli posted:So I'd like to get some opinions on something. This sounds like it may be one of those trial and error situations - it's tough to say what might be best for Psyche. I would probably leave her crated/gated in another room out of sight, and maybe have a jar of awesome treats available for your guests to toss her way as they go to the bathroom. It depends on how bothered she is with someone stepping a foot or so into the doorway. A lot of reactivity seems to be based on who was there first. If you're in a room with your dog and you introduce a trigger, the dog is more likely to react than if the trigger was in the room before the dog arrived. So perhaps something else to try is to bring Psyche out once a quiet guest is in the room. Don't let them interact at all - try not to allow Psyche to even look at them - just do some basic, fun OB games then head back to the crate with a jackpot chew. Know thy dog! mufnut posted:Hey PI, long time lurker here who's having some dog related issues. Through PI I've managed to get my current dog to go from a gigantic reactive wuss with no leash skills to a fairly well behaved dog who knows how to play a lot of fun games and control herself when there's tempting squirrels afoot. She's not my problem, this new little dog Rascal is. We got a call from our local rescue asking us if we could foster a sweet JRT mix right before New Years, and we decided that as long as he was fine with Ginger then it could all work out. I'm dealing with something similar: I have a new Chihuahua at my house. This dog is almost 6 years old, and has lived in a house where it was quite normal for the dogs to piss and poo poo on rugs and in the basement. It gets worse in the winter, but it is a year-round issue. When the dog arrived at my house we kept her movement extremely limited - she was not allowed to wander, and if we weren't watching her she was kept in an exercise pen. After 3 weeks of dog-dog interactions going well I gave the Chihuahua more freedom. Unfortunately one cold morning she decided she didn't feel like getting everything out in one go, so she both pooed and peed on my carpet. Over the next week she had a handful more "accidents" on various rugs. It's amazing how quickly a bad habit can be instilled. So we went back to hardcore gating/supervision with frequent potty breaks. It's been two weeks without an accident, and things seem back on track. I found that if she's kept in a room she's familiar with she'll do her best to hold it - so she'll not soil my bedroom, but she'd be more likely to pee in the basement, bathroom or hallway. I was out for 8 hours yesterday, followed by another 5 hours immediately afterwards (a very unusual day, normally there are more people around to help with potty breaks) - I was certain that I'd come home to pee spots in my room, but it was clean! Success. Basically you really need a safe spot for the dog. It can be a room, an exercise pen, or a crate. That'll be home base when you're not around. When you ARE around, you need to tether the dog or otherwise watch him like a hawk so he doesn't have the opportunity to gently caress up. The more mistakes he makes the more deeply the habit to pee indoors becomes ingrained. My general rule of thumb is to wait for a month of zero accidents before claiming the dog is house broken and granting more freedom. Here is a good post written by Mr Furious on the subject: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3364451&pagenumber=39#post394760852 Here's a video on shaping a dog to love its crate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_Gb-TF9c9U A good thing to remember is that carefully controlling the dog's freedom now pays off in the long run with significantly more freedom later, and cleaner carpets. edit: I should also mention, I know that first thing in the morning the Chihuahua needs to pee twice, and poo. Then she'll be good for a few hours. Over the course of a day she can be expected to pee every 2-4 hours if given the opportunity, and will poo 2-3 times. Knowing your dog's bodily rhythms is integral to getting this done right. I also don't limit my dog's water intake. A lot of people swear by it. I personally feel uncomfortable limiting water, so I work around it via heightened vigilance. edit2: It also warms the cockles of my heart to know that all the PI sperg is helping people and their dogs.
a life less fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Jan 21, 2012 |
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Jan 21, 2012 16:30
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a life less posted:This sounds like it may be one of those trial and error situations - it's tough to say what might be best for Psyche. Thanks. We already do have someone come in and then bring her out and that works quite well. She usually gives a small bark or two, but then is fine unless an new trigger is introduced. She's gotten so much better though, that we've started letting her see when the trainer arrives and gets out of her car and comes in the door. I think Psyche definitely will freak out if a person stepped in her room unannounced. I was more thinking that I would be in there with her, ready to feed her and have someone step into view (from a distance) and then slowly work up from there. I'm still debating if it's worth doing though. There's really no reason for any random person to be approaching her while in her crate or for her to be able to see visitors we have over when she's in her crate, so we could just work on her crate skills with specific people that we could potentially dogsit her in the future. I'm thinking it's like approaching the problem from two different angles: in one, we work on her crate skills primarily by trying to get her comfortable with seeing random people she sort of knows about. In the other, we work extensively on her skills with one person and then when she's really good with that person, work in the crate as we would her being able to have that person hold her leash or pet her. I'm leaning toward the latter, now that I think about it more. My dog is a well known freak-outer and that's something I probably want to avoid associating with her crate at all costs.
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Jan 21, 2012 17:10
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Guys what do you do when you just can't get outside to play? For example when it's like 3 degrees outside with a ton of snow? What can I do? Normally for well behaved Loki, I have to get her out for at least an hour with a flirt pole or she's up moving around all night. What can I do indoors to make her tired? I thought about building a spring pole in the rafters of my basement or something?
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Jan 21, 2012 17:34
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Psyche gets a lot of her exercise indoors because of our schedules (it gets dark so early during the winter) and because we don't want to take her out in public during really busy times (the weekends). So we play tug, fetch, and monkey in the middle inside with her. We also play chase, hide and seek, and wrestle. She's a small dog and prefers sprinting-type exercise to sustained activity, so this works really well for her. If you have a basement or other open space, you should be able to get some rousing games going. I don't see why your dog would snub an indoor spring pole if you motivate it. I also send my dog running up and down our stairs for treats and do a lot of tricks (jumping through hula hoops and such). Remember that mental exercise is tiring as well, so you can substitute some challenging training or brain games for a portion of your dog's normal physical exercise.
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Jan 21, 2012 17:48
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a life less posted:Update on our training things. We found a trainer near us that we're going to use for his next step in training. Here's a link to her website http://dogsandkat.com/ I think it sounds great and it's only a little more expensive than the petsmart stuff. We are having trouble with our puppy jumping still. He looks at jumping as, 'I jump, they say off, I get treat' He's doing the inappropriate behavior so he can get his reward. How can we do this more successfully? And should I be worried about my girlfriend saying his commands all stern and strict like? She was saying she had been reading about how it's important that we show the dog who's in charge when they are young. That sounds like dominance theory using different terms. Should I worry about the non-playful commands potentially scarring the dog? When I say off, I just say it like I were talking to him or asking him to sit or anything. When she says off, she makes sure it's a stern no-nonsense command (the same with sit). Now if this just means he stops listening to her, I don't care because I'm pretty sure the new trainer will correct any of this as she appears to be really into ensuring the pup is having a good time. But if it's going to give him anxiety or make him not respond at all, I need to be the one to bring this information forward and I know how that's going to go. 'The petsmart trainer said this and I read stuff on the internet!' My response will be 'but I also read stuff on the internet and I am not a trainer!'
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Jan 21, 2012 18:16
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Toxx posted:Update on our training things. We found a trainer near us that we're going to use for his next step in training. Here's a link to her website http://dogsandkat.com/ I like the look of the training facility. I liked the mention of replacing undesirable behaviours with desired behaviours via reinforcement right on their front page. So, you're seeing a behaviour chain: I jump -> they say off -> I get treat The key is to get that treat in before he has the opportunity to jump. I'm going to use this video to help illustrate my point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc The video revolves around self control around food, but I think it can be adapted to apply to any self control exercise you want. We call it Its Yer Choice (IYC). The #1 most important key with IYC is that you NEVER tell your dog to "leave it" or "off" or whatever. The dog learns what the correct behaviour is from the start without you ever having to say anything. The way you teach it is through babystepping everything. It's super easy to start with - you give the dog the choice to mob your hand or to back off. The split second the dog backs off you mark & reward it, then repeat the exercise. Pretty soon the dog realizes that holding himself back pays off more than mobbing the hand. With jumping it's a bit tougher since the jumping is self-rewarding, so it's a bit more of an attractive behaviour than chewing on a closed fist. But keep IYC in mind going forward. When you find yourself in a position where your dog is likely to jump, give another cue first -- the dog can't jump when his bum is planted on the floor in a sit. You have to reward that sit LIKE CRAZY with a constant stream of treats. (See above re: replacing one behaviour with another at your new school.) After a while of paying big reinforcement into sitting when you come home (or other situation where he's likely to jump) you can start fading the sit cue. This is where IYC comes back into play. No cue. Simply wait out for the correct behaviour. If he's just not getting it, go back to cuing it, but try to get it faded. Have him sit for everything he might want: attention, dinner, going outside. Eventually it becomes a "say please" behaviour: a polite way to ask for something. Regarding the way your girlfriend is giving cues, I think it will be detrimental to her relationship with the dog, but it won't impact your relationship with the dog. Dogs don't generalize well, and are well known for behaving one way with one person, and another way with another person. You absolutely do not have to be stern with your commands. I think it's more beneficial to be singsongy and lighthearted. The compliance doesn't come through intimidation, but through convincing your dog he wants to do what you want him to do (reinforcement!). Intimidation suggests that the dog needs to comply or else. What is your "or else"? What happens if you need your dog to do something and he's out of your direct control (like off leash at a park)? Intimidation sure as heck won't convince your dog to leave his buddies and come back to you if he can evade your "or else"s. Here's a kikopup video addressing this very thing: http://youtu.be/6cdcyrOMehg I think the video could be a bit more polished, but there's a link to something more cohesive in the description. Your description of your girlfriend's behaviour reminds me of someone I met in the park a while ago. This woman had a lovely Border Collie mix, and she was telling me how well he listens. She turns to her dog and shouts, "SPARKY SIT! SIIIIIT SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!" And the dog sits, and she turns to me happily. It was like this for every cue. "COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOME COME COME COOOOOOOOOOOOOOME!" "LEAAAAVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Luckily this dog was pretty resilient, but she sounded hugely intimidating and angry. I was getting better responses from my dog, and was using my normal intonation and body language. Same result, though I sure as heck felt better about my approach (and I had to repeat myself way less).
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Jan 21, 2012 18:53
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a life less posted:
Thank you so much for a good starting point! I'm definitely on board for the safe room, the two dogs only have access to the workout/dog play area during the day, although it seems he only really does it when we're out at work. I will be keeping him tethered to me when I am at home tho for just in case. I also feel a little iffy on limiting water, but it seems to be the only thing that helps while I'm at work. Maybe I can leave a smaller amount than a full bowl and see how it goes? Again, thanks A Life Less, I've actually been following your posts for months and they've really helped me make a difference in Ginger's (my dog) training so here's hoping I can do the same for Rascal! edit: I know they're not puppies but they might still explode so here you go! 
mufnut fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jan 21, 2012 |
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Jan 21, 2012 22:14
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When we tell Hurley to sit, he will automatically go into a lay. While that is kind of what we want, we want him to sit first. How do I train this and reinforce it?
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Jan 21, 2012 23:02
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Edit: ^^ Maybe luring with a treat in a closed fist and capturing the behavior?a life less posted:The #1 most important key with IYC is that you NEVER tell your dog to "leave it" or "off" or whatever. The dog learns what the correct behaviour is from the start without you ever having to say anything. Thanks for the links and the info. It was quite helpful. I started working on proofing his sit and down today while throwing toys and sticks and he seemed to understand that staying in the position meant he got his treats. In regards to the IYC, if I work with him on that and she still tells him off and leave it etc - are the two different training methods going to affect each other? I really don't give a poo poo if she says off and leave it to him still, as long as he understands what's going on (He stops jumping). (E.g. If I work on IYC and she still works on off/leave it) Basically I will be going uphill when saying 'The internet!' vs 'dogtrainer we've gone to in real life' I'd just rather pick my battles
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Jan 21, 2012 23:08
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Toxx posted:Edit: ^^ Maybe luring with a treat in a closed fist and capturing the behavior? Is there a video I can watch somewhere of this technique? I'm having trouble picturing it and I want to do it right.
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Jan 21, 2012 23:14
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get out posted:When we tell Hurley to sit, he will automatically go into a lay. While that is kind of what we want, we want him to sit first. How do I train this and reinforce it? If he lays down, he gets no reward. Don't try to fix his position, or lure him back into a sit or anything. Just give a lighthearted "oops" and end the exercise. You can try again momentarily. The criteria you maintain will dictate the quality of the behaviour in the future. Messy/lazy criteria = messy/lazy sits. Or you may have to go back to the very beginning and retrain him that sit means sit (lure on the nose, pull up). Sometimes dogs mix up cues, and you need to train them all over again. If he's absolutely convinced that "sit" means to lay down, go back to preschool with him and work it up again. Toxx posted:Thanks for the links and the info. It was quite helpful. I started working on proofing his sit and down today while throwing toys and sticks and he seemed to understand that staying in the position meant he got his treats. In regards to the IYC, if I work with him on that and she still tells him off and leave it etc - are the two different training methods going to affect each other? I really don't give a poo poo if she says off and leave it to him still, as long as he understands what's going on (He stops jumping). (E.g. If I work on IYC and she still works on off/leave it) What will work against you is if the dog is still jumping up on her/other people. If she's able to stop him before he jumps then it'll all be fine. But it sounds like she's being too reactionary (reprimanding bad behaviour, or only cuing off once he's already up). With self rewarding behaviours like jumping I really think that everyone needs to be on the same page. It shouldn't be too tough to mention to her that you want to catch the good behaviour before he has a chance to make a mistake and jump. Suggest to her that she cues an alternative behaviour preemptively and reward lots. I don't think it particularly conflicts with the information she's been given by the trainer.
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Jan 21, 2012 23:20
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