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BizarroAzrael
Apr 6, 2006

"That must weigh heavily on your soul. Let me purge it for you."
I'll ask here since I expect several people in the thread have done this before, how do you deal with a long distance move on shortish notice? I may be starting in Newcastle in less than 2 weeks and I need to arrange accommodation, meaning viewings and the like, but it's far enough that a day trip isn't going to work with the amount of travel. I get some money from work to help with the relocation, I just need to figure the most effective thing to do. Staying in a hotel until I find somewhere might work, but it's not cheap, but I suppose it can't work out worse than rushing into a commitment to a place that turns out not to work in some way. I'm going to try calling some of the letting agencies they recommended and see if there is anything on offer short-term, so I can perhaps move with a car full of my stuff and have some time to pick somewhere more permanent, and rent a van to fetch the rest of my stuff. Or I can just sink a couple of hundred pounds into visiting for a couple of days and viewing all that I can, which might put me in the right place straight away but might not, and could end up being a bit of a mad rush.

Not much time if I want a few days grace in a new place before starting work. Magic: Dark Ascension preview events are that weekend so I'm going to want to play with the cardboard crack.

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Chainclaw
Feb 14, 2009

BizarroAzrael posted:

I'll ask here since I expect several people in the thread have done this before, how do you deal with a long distance move on shortish notice? I may be starting in Newcastle in less than 2 weeks and I need to arrange accommodation, meaning viewings and the like, but it's far enough that a day trip isn't going to work with the amount of travel. I get some money from work to help with the relocation, I just need to figure the most effective thing to do. Staying in a hotel until I find somewhere might work, but it's not cheap, but I suppose it can't work out worse than rushing into a commitment to a place that turns out not to work in some way. I'm going to try calling some of the letting agencies they recommended and see if there is anything on offer short-term, so I can perhaps move with a car full of my stuff and have some time to pick somewhere more permanent, and rent a van to fetch the rest of my stuff. Or I can just sink a couple of hundred pounds into visiting for a couple of days and viewing all that I can, which might put me in the right place straight away but might not, and could end up being a bit of a mad rush.

Not much time if I want a few days grace in a new place before starting work. Magic: Dark Ascension preview events are that weekend so I'm going to want to play with the cardboard crack.

When I was relocated, I just asked the place hiring me for a recommended apartment complex, did all the paperwork remotely, and moved in when I got out there.

You can also look into extended stay hotels, or just crash on someone's couch for a few weeks.

PDP-1
Oct 12, 2004

It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.
When I last had to move cross-country on short notice for a job I used PODS, you might try checking around for your local equivalent. Just call them up and they drop a standard sized shipping container in front of your house. Put just what you need to live in your car and everything else in the shipping container and then call them again and they'll come pick it up and store it until you are ready to have it delivered to a permanent address.

I'd also second asking the HR folks at the new job if they could recommend an apartment complex with one caveat - try to get yourself or an HR rep to choose the unit instead of leaving it up to the landlord. If you let the landlord choose your unit they'll give you the least desirable, hardest to rent thing they have available. I made this mistake and ended up with a scenic view of the garbage dumpster and air conditioning system. :v:

aas Bandit
Sep 28, 2001
Oompa Loompa
Nap Ghost

BizarroAzrael posted:

how do you deal with a long distance move on shortish notice?

The last time my wife and I went through this, we just grabbed a year lease on a big storage space, and an apartment relatively close to work (close enough so I could just bike to work), and then spent a year getting used to the area and figuring out where we wanted to live, (and making friends with a realtor, and looking at houses) before finally making our final choice. Much less stress and no possibility of making a horrible and expensive mistake.

FreakyZoid
Nov 28, 2002

Ask HR if there's anybody already working there who has a room to let for a few months.

floofyscorp
Feb 12, 2007

BizarroAzrael posted:

I'll ask here since I expect several people in the thread have done this before, how do you deal with a long distance move on shortish notice? I may be starting in Newcastle in less than 2 weeks and I need to arrange accommodation, meaning viewings and the like, but it's far enough that a day trip isn't going to work with the amount of travel. I get some money from work to help with the relocation, I just need to figure the most effective thing to do. Staying in a hotel until I find somewhere might work, but it's not cheap, but I suppose it can't work out worse than rushing into a commitment to a place that turns out not to work in some way. I'm going to try calling some of the letting agencies they recommended and see if there is anything on offer short-term, so I can perhaps move with a car full of my stuff and have some time to pick somewhere more permanent, and rent a van to fetch the rest of my stuff. Or I can just sink a couple of hundred pounds into visiting for a couple of days and viewing all that I can, which might put me in the right place straight away but might not, and could end up being a bit of a mad rush.

Not much time if I want a few days grace in a new place before starting work. Magic: Dark Ascension preview events are that weekend so I'm going to want to play with the cardboard crack.

When I moved down south on about two week's notice I was lucky enough to have friends in the area I could stay with for a couple of days right at the start, but after that I moved in for a while with some then-strangers from the new company and made some great friends! Definitely get HR bods to ask around for you; if the company is any size at all there'll usually be people looking for housemates or with a spare room you can have for a while.

I've also had good success with spareroom.co.uk, both letting and renting, so that's worth checking out :3:

The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?


Hair Elf

Shalinor posted:

In happier news, the IGF finalists were announced today:

http://igf.com/2012/01/2012_independent_games_festiva_3.html

... and we're not in the list. Not exactly surprising :v: But hey, we've got a long way to go until the 2013 IGF, and by then... hey, who knows.

I got really excited becuase I thought one of the student finalsists was made by a friend of mine, but it is just something with the same name :smith:

Whatever, I've got another friend who's game is likely gonna get him his third student IGF finals and oh god I feel like such a failure compared to my friends :negative:


Jizzle Drizzle posted:

So I just finished a phone interview for an SDET position at Microsoft Games. It looks like they're going to want to fly me out there for an in person interview. Anybody have any tips for how not to screw it up?

I'm a recent CS grad, and have made lots of games for my classes, but never did any internships, so I don't know a whole lot about professional development.

PM me. I've got some stories to tell about my interview for SDET at Microsoft games.

The Glumslinger fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Jan 18, 2012

Senso
Nov 4, 2005

Always working
For jobs, I once moved from Canada to France on 10 days notice. A few years later, to Vietnam on about 2 months notice. :)
In the Vietnam move (I'm still there), we just stayed at the hotel for 2 weeks until we found an apartment. Gave everything away or put stuff in storage and flew out! Workplace took care of visas and all the paperwork, which helps to no end.

Leif.
Mar 27, 2005

Son of the Defender
Formerly Diplomaticus/SWATJester

Akuma posted:

Argh! Does anyone else use Basecamp for work? The downtime on the writeboards lately is driving me craaaazy.

Yes, and it's annoying.

Limp Wristed Limey
Sep 7, 2010

by Lowtax

BizarroAzrael posted:

I'll ask here since I expect several people in the thread have done this before, how do you deal with a long distance move on shortish notice? I may be starting in Newcastle in less than 2 weeks and I need to arrange accommodation, meaning viewings and the like, but it's far enough that a day trip isn't going to work with the amount of travel. I get some money from work to help with the relocation, I just need to figure the most effective thing to do. Staying in a hotel until I find somewhere might work, but it's not cheap, but I suppose it can't work out worse than rushing into a commitment to a place that turns out not to work in some way. I'm going to try calling some of the letting agencies they recommended and see if there is anything on offer short-term, so I can perhaps move with a car full of my stuff and have some time to pick somewhere more permanent, and rent a van to fetch the rest of my stuff. Or I can just sink a couple of hundred pounds into visiting for a couple of days and viewing all that I can, which might put me in the right place straight away but might not, and could end up being a bit of a mad rush.

Not much time if I want a few days grace in a new place before starting work. Magic: Dark Ascension preview events are that weekend so I'm going to want to play with the cardboard crack.

You might not want to move to Newcastle itself. When I started working in Newcastle (right on the quayside), I moved my family from Sheffield to Chester-le-Street, its cheaper and a 10 minute train ride into Newcastle. I think my weekly train ticket was something like £17. Luckily we knew some people we could stay with for a couple of weeks while we looked. Probably your best best would be to get a hotel for a week and look at everywhere you can.

A Sloth
Aug 4, 2010
EVERY TIME I POST I AM REQUIRED TO DISCLOSE THAT I AM A SHITHEAD.

ASK ME MY EXPERT OPINION ON GENDER BASED INSULTS & "ENGLISH ETHNIC GROUPS".


:banme:
Is Softimage used much in the games Industry? Just I am on an internship with an animation company so I will probably be learning to use it soon.

Owers
Nov 13, 2004

I want to be lean and mean.
The only place I'm aware of that uses Softimage is Valve Software. There was even a free limited version of Softimage released years ago for Source mod development.

Monster w21 Faces
May 11, 2006

"What the fuck is that?"
"What the fuck is this?!"

Senso posted:

For jobs, I once moved from Canada to France on 10 days notice. A few years later, to Vietnam on about 2 months notice. :)
In the Vietnam move (I'm still there), we just stayed at the hotel for 2 weeks until we found an apartment. Gave everything away or put stuff in storage and flew out! Workplace took care of visas and all the paperwork, which helps to no end.

Where the hell are you working?

Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005
the only other place I've heard of using XSI/Softimage personally is EA Chicago before they closed, but I've heard stories of other places using it.

The major barrier/issue to it's use is that many old studios have legacy toolsets built for 3ds Max/Maya and so making the transfer over the XSI is difficult, even though ICE is awesome and their modeling tools are pretty solid.

mutata
Mar 1, 2003

I know of a couple more studios that use it other than the ones listed, so it isn't unheard of, just rare.

The Kins
Oct 2, 2004

Owers posted:

The only place I'm aware of that uses Softimage is Valve Software. There was even a free limited version of Softimage released years ago for Source mod development.
I'm pretty sure they use Maya nowadays.

GeeCee
Dec 16, 2004

:scotland::glomp:

"You're going to be...amazing."
I recall that Kojima Productions used it for MGS3 onwards.

Hughlander
May 11, 2005

BizarroAzrael posted:

I'll ask here since I expect several people in the thread have done this before, how do you deal with a long distance move on shortish notice? I may be starting in Newcastle in less than 2 weeks and I need to arrange accommodation, meaning viewings and the like, but it's far enough that a day trip isn't going to work with the amount of travel. I get some money from work to help with the relocation, I just need to figure the most effective thing to do. Staying in a hotel until I find somewhere might work, but it's not cheap, but I suppose it can't work out worse than rushing into a commitment to a place that turns out not to work in some way. I'm going to try calling some of the letting agencies they recommended and see if there is anything on offer short-term, so I can perhaps move with a car full of my stuff and have some time to pick somewhere more permanent, and rent a van to fetch the rest of my stuff. Or I can just sink a couple of hundred pounds into visiting for a couple of days and viewing all that I can, which might put me in the right place straight away but might not, and could end up being a bit of a mad rush.

Not much time if I want a few days grace in a new place before starting work. Magic: Dark Ascension preview events are that weekend so I'm going to want to play with the cardboard crack.

I've done it several times with basically the same Modus operandi, set a start date for 3 weeks, give 2 weeks notice. Arrange for new company to pay for movers, have movers show up last week of work to pack and load. Finish work, fly out/drive out to new place, start looking for housing, get bank account etc... Sometimes if I knew someone there ahead of time I would open a PO Box in the new town and have everything forwarded there. Other times I'd arrange for up to a month of corporate housing and have my mail forwarded to that. In that week I'd either find an apartment to rent and tell the truck where to deliver my stuff to, or realize I'm going to buy and have the movers move it into storage with a second delivery in the contract. (I'm not paying for it, why not.) Usually in that month I can find a place, buy it, and have the movers deliver to it without having to pay anything out of pocket for either the corporate housing or the moving costs.

Did it for NY => CO with a flight out and a rental, CO => CA driving, CA => NV driving, NV => CA driving, CA => WA driving.

Monster w21 Faces
May 11, 2006

"What the fuck is that?"
"What the fuck is this?!"
Ubisoft Vancouver is dead.

In other news Ubisoft has sold 25 million loving copies of Just Dance.

Odddzy
Oct 10, 2007
Once shot a man in Reno.

M4rk posted:

Take it, dude. It's not like you'd never see your girl again, and the game looks somewhat promising...though I'm still placing my bets on Tribes over Planetside and Warface. Nothing like going 300 sanics.

I disagree.

The question you've gotta answer is do you love her? going in a long distance relationship will cause a lot of stress and with the hardships you've been through in the past year I feel like you should really give it a good thinking. Kind of unhelpful advice since you must already know this but to help you out you can weight the pros and cons by writing them on a piece of paper and choosing once you've got a clear picture. Using that method helps stopping the circular arguments.

Monster w21 Faces
May 11, 2006

"What the fuck is that?"
"What the fuck is this?!"
I think I do. I've been in love a number of times in my life but this is the first stable, healthy non head hosed relationship I've had.

I know I would enjoy working on Warface a whole lot and the team at Crytek seem awesome.

However my gf just enrolled in University last September for her nursing degree and she's told me numerous times that it's something she never would have dreamed of doing if I hadn't of been there to support her. I don't know how she would cope with everything if I wasn't there to support her emotionally and financially.

I don't want to look back at my life in ten years and regret picking my career over helping her do what she wants to do with her life.

I don't want to be that guy but I'm also dealing with my own personal day to day depression and the recent loss of my father, a trauma that I didn't exactly deal with properly as I went straight back to work because I didn't want co-workers to think I was taking advantage.

I'm in a bind.

thermal
Feb 24, 2008

Monster w21 Faces posted:

I don't want to look back at my life in ten years and regret picking my career over helping her do what she wants to do with her life.

Well, only you know your personal details, but from the 80,000' view this sounds totally retarded. As you get older you'll naturally have fewer volatile relationships just out of maturity of both parties. Starting your career at a bad-rear end studio rather than hanging on to a random chick is a no-brainer decision if you really want to be in the industry.

And you said this is just the chance to apply, not a job offer? OMG just do it.

Monster w21 Faces
May 11, 2006

"What the fuck is that?"
"What the fuck is this?!"
The last time I applied for Crytek there were several hundred applicants. I was the only one they interviewed in person, they even flew me out there but the job went to someone already at the studio.

I probably have a higher than normal chance of getting at least another face to face if I apply.

Happy Blue Cow
Oct 23, 2008

I have moooore respect for
Mr. Carpainter then others. Even if I become someone's steak dinner, I'll still respect him.

Monster w21 Faces posted:

I think I do. I've been in love a number of times in my life but this is the first stable, healthy non head hosed relationship I've had.

I know I would enjoy working on Warface a whole lot and the team at Crytek seem awesome.

However my gf just enrolled in University last September for her nursing degree and she's told me numerous times that it's something she never would have dreamed of doing if I hadn't of been there to support her. I don't know how she would cope with everything if I wasn't there to support her emotionally and financially.

I don't want to look back at my life in ten years and regret picking my career over helping her do what she wants to do with her life.

I don't want to be that guy but I'm also dealing with my own personal day to day depression and the recent loss of my father, a trauma that I didn't exactly deal with properly as I went straight back to work because I didn't want co-workers to think I was taking advantage.

I'm in a bind.

LDR's is a whole other can of worms, that applies to any industry/profession/job, let alone the video games industry. There's so many factors and variables (How long to be apart? How far away? How much in love? How tolerant you both are? How your personalities are? etc.. etc..) that I don't think anyone here can give you proper advice without it being skewed slightly based on their own personal life experience. You're going to have to make this call yourself.

But what I can give you is some anecdotal evidence; two of my co-workers in the games industry that I know personally and both had to deal with LDR's.

One designer friend had a girlfriend of 3 years, who he has said multiple times that he was going to marry her. She also worked in the games industry as a programmer, and what ended up happening was that it was actually SHE who got a 'dream' job offer in the U.K (also in the games industry). I talked to him about it, and he said they'll make it work out, skyping each night, and all that jazz. Now I don't know the details, but it just didn't work out, the LDR was too much of a strain on their relationship and they broke up.

Contrarily, another designer friend of mine had a girlfriend of 1 year, and he moved abroad to work for his 'dream' job in the games industry. They had a LDR for over a year, until she actually moved here, and they've been together since.

So all this to say that it can work out, just as much as it cannot work out.

EDIT: Further anecdote, that designer friend who wanted to marry that girl and then broke up, has since found another girlfriend and they are in a very healthy relationship.

So all this to say that everything has a way of working itself out :shobon:

Happy Blue Cow fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Jan 18, 2012

Chasiubao
Apr 2, 2010


Monster w21 Faces posted:

Ubisoft Vancouver is dead.

In other news Ubisoft has sold 25 million loving copies of Just Dance.

drat :sigh:

Shalinor
Jun 10, 2002

Can I buy you a rootbeer?

Monster w21 Faces posted:

However my gf just enrolled in University last September for her nursing degree and she's told me numerous times that it's something she never would have dreamed of doing if I hadn't of been there to support her. I don't know how she would cope with everything if I wasn't there to support her emotionally and financially.

I don't want to look back at my life in ten years and regret picking my career over helping her do what she wants to do with her life.
Do credits transfer between the Uni there and wherever you'd be for Crytek? Could you move out, see how it goes, and move her out there after her first year? Also - unless the pay is poo poo, you would still be able to offer financial support. That's one of the sacrifices you could make in exchange for trying to keep the relationship stable, and one reason for taking the job.

... also also, there is almost no way to break into the industry without moving, so think long and hard about this. If this is what you want, it will likely HAVE to involve a move.

On the other hand, how long is her schooling? Nurses can work basically anywhere.

EDIT: Wait, for some reason I thought you were breaking in. If you're already in? Screw it, stick with the girl.


Unrelated, but, anyone curious about 38 Studios should go try the demo for Kingdom of Alamur. It's... surprisingly competent. If they can get traction with it, this could finally make a name for their studio beyond "those guys who moved to Rhode Island that were founded by a baseball player." It certainly FEELS like a game made with world-class talent hired from around the world.

The lack of press for it is worrying, though. The only reason I even tried the demo was because I heard about the Mass Effect 3 unlocks. I didn't even know what "Kingdom of Amalur" was, or that it was an action RPG, and it's releasing Feb 7th. Theoretically, I AM the target market, but no buzz, no nothing until now. (Basically, if anyone here's from 38 Studios - good luck, game's awesome at least!)

Shalinor fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Jan 18, 2012

Akuma
Sep 11, 2001


Wait why are people acting like this is his chance to break into the industry? He's been in it for ages? Is currently in it?

Whut.

devilmouse
Mar 26, 2004

It's just like real life.

Shalinor posted:

Unrelated, but, anyone curious about 38 Studios should go try the demo for Kingdom of Alamur. It's... surprisingly competent. If they can get traction with it, this could finally make a name for their studio beyond "those guys who moved to Rhode Island that were founded by a baseball player." It certainly FEELS like a game made with world-class talent hired from around the world.

Fun fact! Kingdoms isn't being made by the RI people. It's the studio that was Big Huge Games who was working on an RPG they originally started on like 5-6 years ago for the Wii. When BHG was about to go belly up, 38 swooped in and bought them and had them rebrand their game with their MMO's IP.

edit: It's a pretty sweet game regardless of the gossip though!

devilmouse fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Jan 18, 2012

Fizzle
Dec 14, 2006
ZOMG, Where'd my old account go?!?

Shalinor posted:

Unrelated, but, anyone curious about 38 Studios should go try the demo for Kingdom of Alamur. It's... surprisingly competent. If they can get traction with it, this could finally make a name for their studio beyond "those guys who moved to Rhode Island that were founded by a baseball player." It certainly FEELS like a game made with world-class talent hired from around the world.

The lack of press for it is worrying, though. The only reason I even tried the demo was because I heard about the Mass Effect 3 unlocks. I didn't even know what "Kingdom of Amalur" was, or that it was an action RPG, and it's releasing Feb 7th. Theoretically, I AM the target market, but no buzz, no nothing until now. (Basically, if anyone here's from 38 Studios - good luck, game's awesome at least!)

I heard nothing about this game until listening to the IGN Game Scoop podcast (I was out of everything else, and I had a long drive) and I think they interviewed a couple of the guys on the project. The amount of lore/backstory they seem to have in this game is impressive. I'm very interested

What's also really interesting is that they're making an MMO set in the future of the game as well. They mentioned the teams having to work together for continuity.

Enough of this derail. I've just found myself laid off and attempting to find another position... Hope something comes up soon, though I'm beginning to think I should focus my efforts more on my Cisco certifications I half completed before being hired out

FreakyZoid
Nov 28, 2002

I would stick with your current place. If things don't work out there are a load of other studios nearby. In Nottingham, not so much.

Also Dundee to Nottingham is a 7 hour or so train journey. That'll kill you on any weekend you try and meet up.

Monster w21 Faces
May 11, 2006

"What the fuck is that?"
"What the fuck is this?!"

FreakyZoid posted:

I would stick with your current place. If things don't work out there are a load of other studios nearby. In Nottingham, not so much.

Also Dundee to Nottingham is a 7 hour or so train journey. That'll kill you on any weekend you try and meet up.

It's Frankfurt.

FreakyZoid
Nov 28, 2002

In that case I definitely wouldn't bother :)

Pixelboy
Sep 13, 2005

Now, I know what you're thinking...

Monster w21 Faces posted:

Ubisoft Vancouver is dead.

yeah, I work two floors up in the same building. Went out for drinks with a bunch of them last night.

A bunch of them were Propaganda / Disney refugees, too. Twice in as many years for them -- pretty rough.

Odddzy
Oct 10, 2007
Once shot a man in Reno.

thermal posted:

Well, only you know your personal details, but from the 80,000' view this sounds totally retarded. As you get older you'll naturally have fewer volatile relationships just out of maturity of both parties. Starting your career at a bad-rear end studio rather than hanging on to a random chick is a no-brainer decision if you really want to be in the industry.

And you said this is just the chance to apply, not a job offer? OMG just do it.

Do you work in the industry? don't take it the wrong way but you seem kind of infatuated with it and it's the kind of attitude that shines a lot in people that want to but are still in school or only entertain an interest in games. A good relationship can be worth more than a job depending on the quality of the significant other.

mutata
Mar 1, 2003

If it came down to a choice between my girl and getting into the industry, I would choose my girl. No brainer. If you find a good one, hold on and everything else can go to hell. :)

Jizzle Drizzle
Feb 7, 2005

SKIBI DOO BOP I’M DA SCAT MAN

crazylakerfan posted:

I got really excited becuase I thought one of the student finalsists was made by a friend of mine, but it is just something with the same name :smith:

Whatever, I've got another friend who's game is likely gonna get him his third student IGF finals and oh god I feel like such a failure compared to my friends :negative:


PM me. I've got some stories to tell about my interview for SDET at Microsoft games.

PM sent and thanks for the tips. Also, what book do you guys recommend for testing, if any. I've been looking at How We Test Software at Microsoft and How to Break Software, and I'm not sure if one's better than the other, or if I should even bother reading any book on testing methodology. I'm only really familiar and comfortable with unit testing, since I was a grader for a course that involved it, so I don't know really what more there is to know or what else is important to know.

Again, thanks for any help you guys can offer!

floofyscorp
Feb 12, 2007

Purely anecdotal, but I went for the LDR option when it came to my first job in the industry. I'd been together with my boyfriend for 4 years at the time and we were long-distance for another 2 before he moved down here last year.

...Then I broke up with him and am typing this from amidst the smoking wreckage of my life but that probably didn't have much to do with being long-distance all that time :(


Point being, LDRs can definitely work for some people if they work at it. They do suck a lot but it can be worth it for the right job I think.

Monster w21 Faces
May 11, 2006

"What the fuck is that?"
"What the fuck is this?!"
I REALLY like Crytek.

Mega Shark
Oct 4, 2004

Monster w21 Faces posted:

I REALLY like Crytek.

That's the thing about really liking a job like this: It's almost never an easy choice when you're established in a location and you have lots of personal relationships.

I wish you the best in your decision if they make an offer.

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The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?


Hair Elf

Jizzle Drizzle posted:

PM sent and thanks for the tips. Also, what book do you guys recommend for testing, if any. I've been looking at How We Test Software at Microsoft and How to Break Software, and I'm not sure if one's better than the other, or if I should even bother reading any book on testing methodology. I'm only really familiar and comfortable with unit testing, since I was a grader for a course that involved it, so I don't know really what more there is to know or what else is important to know.

Again, thanks for any help you guys can offer!

I got How to Break Software before my internship interview, and that one was pretty dense and for the most part, wasn't particularly useful for the SDET at Game Studios interview. Never read the other one, but it is probably more applicable.

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