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I didn't interpret the text as rape, I think that's a bit of a stretch and a little out of line with his character. Shenkt doesn't seem to enjoy killing or inflicting pain at all and hints at regretting becoming what he is.
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Jan 19, 2012 00:32
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Definitely did not get the impression that there was any rape going on with Shenkt.
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Jan 19, 2012 00:41
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I think you're thinking of:quote:"Normally I am a taciturn man. Too much time spent alone, perhaps." He flashed his corpse-smile at her. "But I find you ... bring out the best in me. The mother of my children is the same. You remind me of her, in a way." And then the next section starts with her trying to close her fist. So, no immediate rapey vibe, although it seems like it might have gone there if she'd stayed and decided she didn't want to bang him--the fist closing scene shows that he doesn't really take "no" for an answer as a matter of policy. He's not portrayed in a sympathetic way, that's for sure. Then as it goes on the book then goes on to slowly show him as more and more of a moral character, until by the end he's practically the hero of the book, and while you're "in it" you tend to (or at least I did) either forget how morbid his entrance was, or almost feel bad for thinking he was a bad guy to begin with. Which, to me, in this series, means that he's probably going to be most awful, moralizing, evil gently caress since Hitler (or Bayaz if you prefer).
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Jan 19, 2012 01:02
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He may end up being one of the few strongly moral characters in the series. Abercrombie loves to play with inverted tropes and gradual reveals, so with Bayaz you had this kind, grandfatherly old wizard type who ends up being an ammoral nation builder who couldn't give two hoots about anyone's life under his "protection." Shenkt starts off as this menacing, monstrous creep and ends out the book with a pretty different image.
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Jan 19, 2012 01:15
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Above Our Own posted:Shenkt was barely developed at all and came off as just a carbon copy "inscrutable badass" archetype to me. I feel the author left hooks in for further development but we haven't seen it yet. Morveer on the other hand you really get to see the entirety of his character as it's slowly unveiled: he's a sociopath, unaware of his own incompetences, incredibly narcissistic, but ultimately very much an idealist. I couldn't say half as much for Shenkt. I think I mentioned it long ago in this thread but this is my major problem with Shenkt. He is the ultimate bad rear end and and he never stumbles, which doesn't really fit in Abercrombie's world. Even Bayaz had poo poo go downhill on him multiple times throughout the course of the trilogy.
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Jan 19, 2012 01:19
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:I think you're thinking of: Yep, totally my bad. Glad he wasn't as much of a creeper as I recalled.
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Jan 19, 2012 01:28
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So, I read the first book, and I've gotten a bit into the second. And I'm really not sure if I'm crazy about the story or if I can finish it. I got to the part where Ferro is about to run again, they're on the plains and she just stole food. This will be the fourth time now, the last 3 times she almost died and was saved, and the person saving her almost died once. And she's loving running again. This sort of seems to be a recurring theme. None of the characters seem to evolve in any way. Ferro makes the same stupid mistakes constantly, and is still the sniveling worthless jackass she was 500 pages ago. So is Jezal. He hasn't done a single redeeming thing in a book and a half, no growth, nothing. Glotka I can sort of forgive for turning everyone he speaks to into his enemy that wants to kill him, but it's still sort of grating because it's so unrealistic. Bayaz seems like an rear end in a top hat most of the time, the whole government is corrupt and worthless, the inquisition are unrealistically out of control and backwards/corrupt. No matter how many times the characters are saved/helped/survive hardship, none of them never stop being cartoonish assholes constantly. I mean maybe i'm way off base, but typically in a book you'll have some of the main characters mature and become protagonists. I think that really hits the nail on the head for me. This story has zero protagonists outside of Logan, and he hasn't even had a single chapter yet 200 pages into the second book. So that leaves us with a couple of minor characters; West who is an alright guy and Dognose and his pals who are interesting. The Union so far seems to deserve to fail as it has nothing redeeming about it, all the leaders are comic book evil or incompetent. So in essence, there's barely anyone in the book I have any sympathy for, the country they are fighting for deserves to burn, and no characters are growing at all. Their all the same people they were on page one., to me. So my question is, do any of these fucks redeem themselves? I can't read anther 400 pages of a bunch of dipshits dipshitting around for a year. I needed to rant, thank you. Umph fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Jan 19, 2012 |
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Jan 19, 2012 08:30
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Umph posted:
You are missing the point. Almost every character goes through an arc where they almost become a better person, even Jezal in the second book, but they always return to being who they were at the beginning or worse (Shivers, Monza, and Logan). Glokta is the only character who ends up a better person, because he halfway accepts himself and learns to love someone else. Its a really pessimistic outlook at humanity, but it works for me, and it counters the typical fantasy arc where everyone ends up being these perfect and fulfilled human beings by the end of their arcs. MartingaleJack fucked around with this message at 10:47 on Jan 19, 2012 |
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Jan 19, 2012 10:45
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Umph posted:So, I read the first book, and I've gotten a bit into the second. And I'm really not sure if I'm crazy about the story or if I can finish it. If you want a fairy tale that ends on a positive note, Abercrombie isn't going to be for you. That said, many of the characters do undergo drastic positive changes. Some head the other way, some try to be better and fail, some never change. That's life.
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Jan 19, 2012 15:59
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BananaNutkins posted:You are missing the point. Almost every character goes through an arc where they almost become a better person, even Jezal in the second book, but they always return to being who they were at the beginning or worse (Shivers, Monza, and Logan). Glokta is the only character who ends up a better person, because he halfway accepts himself and learns to love someone else. I wouldn't even put Gloktra out as a better person. He's still utterly awful. He's a sadist and a torturer. I understand what Abercrombie is trying to do with this characters in the First Law trilogy, and appreciate it as a longtime reader of formulaic fantasy. But yeah if you're going to be looking for a positive character you won't be finding one.
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Jan 19, 2012 23:29
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:So, no immediate rapey vibe, although it seems like it might have gone there if she'd stayed and decided she didn't want to bang him
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Jan 19, 2012 23:46
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I read that as "you remind me of someone I love, so I will help you. Here's a pipe, it will help with the pain. I know you can't hold it so I will help you with that too". Unless there's something contextual I'm forgetting about that scene, there's nothing rapey even remotely implied!
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Jan 20, 2012 00:08
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Zeitgueist posted:I wouldn't even put Gloktra out as a better person. He's still utterly awful. He's a sadist and a torturer.
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Jan 20, 2012 23:28
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The Dogman is what I'd consider the only genuinely good person amongst the main characters. He pays for this by being constantly poo poo on by events throughout the series.
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Jan 21, 2012 00:31
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What? In The Heroes he becomes king of half the North!.
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Jan 21, 2012 01:04
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Grand Prize Winner posted:What? In The Heroes he becomes king of half the North!. Which he doesn't want and certainly isn't prepared for. He's a follower, not a leader, and is to his credit well aware of that from the get-go. Though you could argue that despite being a reluctant leader, he's actually a very good one. Also, the rump North is a Union puppet state, with all that entails.
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Jan 21, 2012 05:59
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:The Dogman is what I'd consider the only genuinely good person amongst the main characters. That's what makes Dogman the best. He doesn't crumple into a state of pathetic self-pity like Shivers, Jezal, etc. do when their good intentions are met with a load of poo poo. Hell, Dogman (and later Shenkt, though in a smaller capacity) is probably why I don't avidly dislike this series given how much I generally detest pessimism and nihilism in media.
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Jan 21, 2012 08:15
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Above Our Own posted:He also spares innocents frequently even at great personal risk as the books go on. He's by no means a good guy (and is fully cognizant of this), since those don't exist in Abercrombie's worlds.
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Jan 21, 2012 08:29
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This is a series about The entire world and all the people in it being the playthings and/or creations of two immortal mages who are both so amoral that after five books I'm still not sure who's truly more evil. Good things are only allowed to exist if they somehow serve the ends of the pair of ageless beings. And even if something should happen that is not related to their ommiscient plan and eternal war it's brought into them or stamped out ruthlessly. If you are looking for positive growth and changes...you've got the wrong book. Also, in my re-read I picked up two more Magis to add to the list I posted earlier. DarkCrawler posted:1: Bayaz - First of the Magi That's (three) more of the order of the Magi we haven't heard of or I have missed. Or better said, of the twelve apprentices of Juvens since Yoru Sulfur is apparently a full-fledged Magi in his own right? Khalul's primary apprentices probably too? And I hope we get to see more of Bayaz's apprentices then the three that we already have. Khalul had a hundred, so Bayaz must have more as well...Yoru only seems to be the first or the best or both. There is at least three more books coming, any about where they are set in? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Jan 24, 2012 |
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Jan 21, 2012 22:30
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You've got Zacharus on there twice, so we're really missing two of them.
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Jan 22, 2012 00:46
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Didn't Abercrombie himself comment at one point that he had difficulty keeping track of all those mages? I'm doubtful that we'll see much more impact from the unnamed rest of Juvens' old crew.
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Jan 22, 2012 03:16
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Juaguocio posted:You've got Zacharus on there twice, so we're really missing two of them.
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Jan 23, 2012 18:22
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How did that happen? I even gave the copies new numbers! 
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Jan 24, 2012 08:59
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I'm more interested in what happened to Bedesh (one of the least mentioned sons of Euz), there isn't any specific reference to him dying or anything. He seems to have settled up north and be distantly related to Logen, going by their similar ability to speak with the spirits anyway.
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Jan 24, 2012 16:08
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I am still of the opinion that Bayaz has him imprisoned somewhere. He tells Logen that he is the last human he knows of with this ability but then later tells him he had other plans if Logen died. Then again Bayaz is a lying piece of poo poo so who knows.
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Jan 24, 2012 16:18
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I feel like the whole subplot with Tolomei in the trilogy is really poorly thought out and isn't developed well in the story. It leaves a lot of questions: How can Bayaz feel secure just locking her in the House of the Maker? It's clear from the text that Tolomei knows way more about the house and its secrets than Bayaz, and Bayaz is aware of this. So he locks her in a place containing artifacts of incredible power that he does not understand and he has no confidence that she doesn't know another way out? You dumb, wiz. Secondly, what's her endgame? Find the seed and open the gates to hell-world or whatever? I really hate the "corrupted and wants to unleash ultimate evil" character motivation, it's lazy writing and about as cliche as you can get, and Abercrombie makes long winded blog posts about how much he hates fantasy cliches. It doesn't fit in with the morally ambiguous ethos he's got going in in the series. And then there's the 'fact' that Bayaz is nearing a thousand years old and has spent the majority of it coercing and manipulating the fate of nations and yet he isn't deft enough to notice the character changes in his own apprentice who he's been around constantly? You'd think someone with such a long history of high level politics and betrayal would have learned to keep a watchful eye on his close associates. Anyways, love the author, dig the books and everything. Just a few things that popped out to me.
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Jan 24, 2012 16:44
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Above Our Own posted:How can Bayaz feel secure just locking her in the House of the Maker? It's clear from the text that Tolomei knows way more about the house and its secrets than Bayaz, and Bayaz is aware of this. So he locks her in a place containing artifacts of incredible power that he does not understand and he has no confidence that she doesn't know another way out? You dumb, wiz. He was Kanedias's apprentice for years and much more older and knowledgeable then Tolomei when he was hanging around the House so it's not like he doesn't know the place's secrets either. And the whole "unbreakable door" thing was pretty well established in my opinion. Above Our Own posted:Secondly, what's her endgame? Find the seed and open the gates to hell-world or whatever? I really hate the "corrupted and wants to unleash ultimate evil" character motivation, it's lazy writing and about as cliche as you can get, and Abercrombie makes long winded blog posts about how much he hates fantasy cliches. It doesn't fit in with the morally ambiguous ethos he's got going in in the series. Revenge, and pact that she made with the Other Side to have her resurrected? I think that's a pretty good motivation...growing up in the House of the Maker probably did not instill her with a very good opinion about humanity either, especially when "humanity" in Midderland back then meant bunch of sheepfuckers that Bayaz would create the Union out of hundreds of years afterwards. Above Our Own posted:And then there's the 'fact' that Bayaz is nearing a thousand years old and has spent the majority of it coercing and manipulating the fate of nations and yet he isn't deft enough to notice the character changes in his own apprentice who he's been around constantly? You'd think someone with such a long history of high level politics and betrayal would have learned to keep a watchful eye on his close associates. Umm, he says that he had noticed it for like weeks, since he got turned. He was just monitoring him and figuring out what's his game. He thought he was an eater though, not Tolomei.
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Jan 24, 2012 17:50
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It's still a fair chance that Tolomei knows and understands things far better about the House than Bayaz does, and since there's also tons of potent weapons and tools for, you know, creating armies and whatnot, it seems like a really boneheaded decision just to leave her in there in the heart of his precious union capital.
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Jan 24, 2012 18:59
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Above Our Own posted:It's still a fair chance that Tolomei knows and understands things far better about the House than Bayaz does, and since there's also tons of potent weapons and tools for, you know, creating armies and whatnot, it seems like a really boneheaded decision just to leave her in there in the heart of his precious union capital. What other choice did he really have at the time?
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Jan 24, 2012 20:42
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Also, we don't really know what he's been doing all this time, so...maybe he has devised a better solution for her.
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Jan 24, 2012 21:08
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Remember, Bayaz was in such a hurry that he locked Yulwei in there with her. It wasn't a calculated plan, just a desperation move. Either Bayaz has taken care of the situation in the meantime, he trusted Yulwei to do it, or Yulwei and Tolomei made up during their ten+ years of incarceration and are going to emerge as allies out to gently caress up Bayaz in a future book. I don't know if we're still spoilering stuff, but I figured I'd be sure.
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Jan 25, 2012 02:28
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Above Our Own posted:I feel like the whole subplot with Tolomei in the trilogy is really poorly thought out and isn't developed well in the story. Yeah I can agree with that. TFL spoilers She gets reincarnated by making a deal with blah blah on the other side just so she can get revenge. Yet she has several opportunities to gently caress him over and she just lets him live for no apparent reason. Her character motivation is supposedly revenge but she doesn't bother despite it being simple for her to renege on her end of the deal. quote:I am still of the opinion that Bayaz has him imprisoned somewhere. He tells Logen that he is the last human he knows of with this ability but then later tells him he had other plans if Logen died. Then again Bayaz is a lying piece of poo poo so who knows. Yeah I don't know if its one of those first book things he just glossed over or if its supposed to be an important point for later on.
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Jan 25, 2012 16:42
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Another big problem with Tolomei is that she really came out of nowhere. That might make for an interesting plot twist if you like comic-book quality plot lines but there was no chance for character development. I bet Abercrombie just wanted a cool fight scene in the House of the Maker. To the author's credit his work after TFL doesn't really have anything like this. The plot twists in Heroes/BSC all flow naturally from the narrative.
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Jan 25, 2012 16:53
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Above Our Own posted:Another big problem with Tolomei is that she really came out of nowhere. That might make for an interesting plot twist if you like comic-book quality plot lines but there was no chance for character development. I bet Abercrombie just wanted a cool fight scene in the House of the Maker. She didn't really come out of nowhere, exactly. She was another one note character that existed only as a counterpoint to the dramatized version of her life (as told by Bayaz), throwing even more doubt on any of what Bayaz has said about her. It really just reinforces that he's a manipulative dick, and has always been a manipulative dick.
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Jan 25, 2012 19:00
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She's not really a counterpoint, though. It would have been better if she had been. From the text I infer that she really was this naive creature of supreme innocence who was corrupted by DARK FORCES into a being bent on ultimate destruction. Bayaz' account of her personality is completely honest as far as he knew. If they had cut the whole CORRUPTING EVIL element out and revealed that she really wasn't innocent, maybe she was helping Bayaz plot to kill Juvens/Kanendias or something then you'd be right and I would personally like the character a little more.
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Jan 25, 2012 20:20
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The Gunslinger posted:Yeah I can agree with that. TFL spoilers She gets reincarnated by making a deal with blah blah on the other side just so she can get revenge. Yet she has several opportunities to gently caress him over and she just lets him live for no apparent reason. Her character motivation is supposedly revenge but she doesn't bother despite it being simple for her to renege on her end of the deal. I think that while she is driven by revenge, she is also supposed to have been driven completely insane by the voices / demons / other side and was more or less just doing their bidding.
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Jan 25, 2012 20:30
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Bizob posted:I think that while she is driven by revenge, she is also supposed to have been driven completely insane by the voices / demons / other side and was more or less just doing their bidding. Really? If so, I missed that completely (or have just forgotten). I actually need to reread the relevant parts of the 2nd and 3rd books, since I actually forget a lot of the progression (for instance, I can't remember what happens to Tolomei after Bayaz pushes her out of the House of the Maker, and she doesn't die)... As for the idea of locking her in at the end, I think that makes sense. The geometry of the place is apparently non-euclidean, so maybe by locking the door at the end he closes every exit from the place (so that Tolomei can't just, say, jump out). And the place was built by the Maker, which means it's still mostly beyond Bayaz (unless he learned enough of the maker's gift, but doesn't want to go through the effort to ever recreate it), so it could very well be a permanent prison for Tolomei and Yulwei.
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Jan 25, 2012 20:44
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It is entirely possible that I just made that up like I made up the Shenkt-rapey vibe thing. My reading comprehension is apparently not so good.
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Jan 25, 2012 20:54
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Bizob posted:It is entirely possible that I just made that up like I made up the Shenkt-rapey vibe thing. My reading comprehension is apparently not so good. I'm honestly blanking on so much of Last Argument, since I think I only read that one once (as opposed to the others, which I think I reread multiple times while waiting for him to release the next book). I was gonna say that it would be great if there was a wiki for the First Law stuff (I dunno what to call the whole setting), due to how long it's been since I read, but that gave me mad deja vu and it turns out my first post in this thread, like a year back, was "I don't remember too much, it's been a while...there should be a wiki!" That said, apparently some did make a wikia for this, but there is zero content (maybe not enough sperglords? Maybe it was created by a dick? who knows!). Slanderer fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Jan 25, 2012 |
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Jan 25, 2012 21:06
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From what I remember, Tolomei is the way she is because of how Bayaz treated her. He seduced her then threw her off the top of the tower and then lied about it - she's nurtured a hatred for him after his betrayal for thousands of years. She's not been driven insane by demons, but more just by the millennia of suffering and hate. And is using demons to get her revenge rather than being prompted by them to pursue her revenge.
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Jan 25, 2012 21:22
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