|
Found this gem on Gaia today  This is a grown woman reacting to someone telling them that in order to improve as an artist, they need to draw from life. the kawaiiest fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Jan 22, 2012 |
#
?
Jan 22, 2012 23:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 12:14 |
|
|
the kawaiiest posted:Found this gem on Gaia today Don't most manga artists draw from life at first? At the very least, I'm pretty sure the professional artists do.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2012 23:27
|
|
|
the kawaiiest posted:Found this gem on Gaia today Oh, Gaia. I don't regret leaving you one bit.  Well, maybe I do a little for reasons that those quotes show nicely.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2012 23:42
|
|
|
Lance Streetman posted:Don't most manga artists draw from life at first? At the very least, I'm pretty sure the professional artists do. Oh god, no. Most manga artists learn by copying other artists, which is why most manga artists are loving terrible, professional or otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2012 23:48
|
|
|
Heresiarch posted:Oh god, no. Most manga artists learn by copying other artists, which is why most manga artists are loving terrible, professional or otherwise. I could probably count the number of good manga artists in one hand.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2012 23:52
|
|
|
the kawaiiest posted:plagiarizing the poo poo out of everything they can get their hands on. I would call most of those references rather than tracings-- if you overlay the photo with the drawing, the lines don't quite match up. That one guy's tiny head is hilarious, though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 00:07
|
|
|
RoeCocoa posted:I would call most of those references rather than tracings-- if you overlay the photo with the drawing, the lines don't quite match up. the kawaiiest fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Jan 23, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 00:14
|
|
|
the kawaiiest posted:Referencing isn't copying an image exactly. Those may not be traced, but it's definitely plagiarism. I'm sure you could find 100's of images of basketball players in almost identical poses.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 00:33
|
|
|
Corridor posted: JacquelineDempsey posted:To add to the "where do these people come from?" discussion: as someone who grew up without the internet, I blame the internet. Does anyone else pushing 40 in this thread agree? I hung with the geeky D&D, LARP, SCA, comic book-reading, sci-fi watching, con-going crowd, and I never knew anyone as remotely crazy as some of the piss-drinking furry otaku soul-bonding freaks in this thread. This this this. Looking back, I can identify a lot of the personality traits in these horror stories in people I knew back in the day, both in geeky subcultures and in the music scene, etc.-- the kid in high school who had a 'Satanist' coven, the goth chick in college who described herself as a 'psychic vampire', but none of them were able to marinate in their crazy so completely. Only the Rocky Horror people came anywhere close, and they mostly just had bisexual drama with their fellow fat drama club rejects!
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 00:58
|
|
|
Rawrbomb posted:I'm sure you could find 100's of images of basketball players in almost identical poses.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 01:08
|
|
|
the kawaiiest posted:plagiarizing the poo poo out of everything they can get their hands on. Why are the manga figures' heads so tiny? The artist is clearly using reference images, they should be able to see right there what the proportions should be. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 01:31
|
|
|
Heresiarch posted:Oh god, no. Most manga artists learn by copying other artists, which is why most manga artists are loving terrible, professional or otherwise. The other thing that most "manga is a style!!!" fangirls ignore is that manga style is optimized for speed. A lot of the stylistic shortcuts are because manga artists need to produce pages and chapters at an insanely quick rate compared to Western comic art, so the style evolved to be quick and efficient to draw. Someone who's not under those deadline constraints and spends a week on a single awful character portrait has no excuse for using the same shortcuts besides raw laziness or mimicry.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 01:41
|
|
|
beckyogg posted:Why are the manga figures' heads so tiny? The artist is clearly using reference images, they should be able to see right there what the proportions should be.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 02:04
|
|
|
the kawaiiest posted:This is a grown woman reacting to someone telling them that in order to improve as an artist, they need to draw from life. God drat. Once again: I'm glad the Internet wasn't around when I was a stupid teenager. Back then, I raged against not being able to draw in "my style"* when my art teacher at the time told me I had to draw from life. Since I didn't have a hugbox circlejerk to turn to, I relented. I started sketching from life, gradually got used to it, bought some good anatomy books, brought my sketchbook along any time I visited a zoo or museum, went on to take four years of figure drawing in college, and I have never ever regretted it since. My art may be impressively mediocre (I am 33 and still learning), but at least I know how that eyeballs are an actual sphere, hands and feet have a lot of fiddly little bones inside them, and a wing isn't just a pile of fluff that magically grants flight. * - Though to be fair to my younger self, at least I was taking artistic cues from the likes of Chuck Jones and Tex Avery rather than Learn to Draw Generic Manga Mania Volume XVII. (NOTE: I don't hate Manga.)
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 02:19
|
|
|
Antivehicular posted:The other thing that most "manga is a style!!!" fangirls ignore is that manga style is optimized for speed. A lot of the stylistic shortcuts are because manga artists need to produce pages and chapters at an insanely quick rate compared to Western comic art, so the style evolved to be quick and efficient to draw. Someone who's not under those deadline constraints and spends a week on a single awful character portrait has no excuse for using the same shortcuts besides raw laziness or mimicry. The styles typically seen in weekly publications for teenagers are abbreviated for production speed, but not all manga is like that. Not surprisingly, most American fans are only familiar with manga from weekly publications for teenagers.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 02:22
|
|
|
the kawaiiest posted:Not just by copying other manga artists but also by plagiarizing the poo poo out of everything they can get their hands on. Did you just use Takehiko Inoue as an example for a bad artist?! Read Vagabond, and then stand in the hall. beckyogg posted:Why are the manga figures' heads so tiny? The artist is clearly using reference images, they should be able to see right there what the proportions should be. It's because Slam Dunk was his debut work and he was young and inexperienced when he drew that stuff. Every artist has to go through that phase. Inoue is one of the most skilled comic artists alive today. Ententod fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Jan 23, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 02:25
|
|
|
Ententod posted:Did you just use Takehiko Inoue as an example for a bad artist?! Read Vagabond, and then stand in the hall. I disagree that he's "one of the most skilled comic artists alive today" but that comes down to personal taste. Ethics don't, though, and plagiarism is plagiarism no matter how good the artist doing it is. See also: David Mack, Greg Land. Edit: and also http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/07/28/swipe-file-jon-schiller-design-and-capcom/ etc etc. This kind of poo poo happens all the time and it's really pathetic. the kawaiiest fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jan 23, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 02:43
|
|
|
the kawaiiest posted:I've read Vagabond. I own it. I fail to see how his later work somehow makes his old work good or his plagiarism acceptable, though. You implied he couldn't draw people when he wasn't tracing pictures, which is crazy unfounded. The fact that you think he shouldn't have used those references doesn't make that implication any more correct. Also picking out an artist's decade old work to demonstrate how they are a hack while at the same time being aware that same artist later went on to become awesome is pretty weird and illogical.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 03:20
|
|
|
the kawaiiest posted:Not just by copying other manga artists but also by plagiarizing the poo poo out of everything they can get their hands on. Oh, if only I had a copy of Even A Monkey Can Draw Manga around to excerpt from, since they were talking about this stuff back in the late eighties...
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 03:21
|
|
|
Ententod posted:You implied he couldn't draw people when he wasn't tracing pictures, which is crazy unfounded. The fact that you think he shouldn't have used those references doesn't make that implication any more correct. quote:Also picking out an artist's decade old work to demonstrate how they are a hack while at the same time being aware that same artist later went on to become awesome is pretty weird and illogical. Sorry I don't like your favorite manga artist or something but I think you're taking this a little too personally. It's okay if you like the guy, whatever works for you. Just don't act as if I'm a horrible person for pointing out the fact that the guy plagiarized some NBA photos and for not being particularly fond of his recent work. Edit: I'm derailing this thread, sorry guys! Ententod, let's take this to PMs if you wanna keep talking about it. Back on topic, same crazy woman on Gaia 
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 03:41
|
|
|
the kawaiiest posted:Sorry I don't like your favorite manga artist or something but I think you're taking this a little too personally. It's okay if you like the guy, whatever works for you. Just don't act as if I'm a horrible person for pointing out the fact that the guy plagiarized some NBA photos and for not being particularly fond of his recent work. I did not critizise you for either of these things, I have to say it kind of irritates me when somebody misrepresents my position only to go "oh well discussion's over" right after. But yeah whatever.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 03:59
|
|
|
I actually don't know much about Gaia other than the name and the fact that it used to be popular with teenagers or whatever, but my god the posting is always the dumbest, most incomprehensible crap around. Little wonder they take this sort of thing so seriously.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 04:02
|
|
|
I don't think I've ever seen a post on Gaia that didn't make me want to rail at the KIDS THESE DAYS like a porch-bound old man. It's like a terrible version of that line from Dazed and Confused: I keep getting older, but the kids on Gaia somehow stay the same age, and it's a deeply stupid one.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 04:07
|
|
|
Ententod posted:I did not critizise you for either of these things, I have to say it kind of irritates me when somebody misrepresents my position only to go "oh well discussion's over" right after. But yeah whatever. Anyway, here's another gem from the same woman on Gaia  This is her art 
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 04:20
|
|
|
the kawaiiest posted:This is her art Well hell, no wonder she's not so keen on criticism. After all, one cannot improve upon perfection.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 04:24
|
|
|
I like how there's enough room between those eyes to drive an 18-wheeler. Awesome!
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 05:02
|
|
|
the kawaiiest posted:This is her art
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 05:07
|
|
|
Antivehicular posted:I like how there's enough room between those eyes to drive an 18-wheeler. Awesome! 
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 06:01
|
|
|
I hope someone quoted her statement of "I'll argue against anything you have to say" and replied with "Drawing anime is a legitimate way to improve your skill as an artist."
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 06:39
|
|
|
As an artist who has worked professionally in the past, I can say that no illustrator in the business would knock someone for using a photograph as reference. For instance, that post about the Slam Dunk manga where the artist used actual players as reference. Any professional illustrator who looked at that would say "Well..yeah. How else are you supposed to get the reference?" Very few, if any, illustrators draw 100% out of their heads if they're rendering anything remotely realistic. My entire career it has been drummed into me to reference reference reference. Now, I will admit they usually say to take your OWN reference. For instance, grab some friends to go play basketball and take pictures of them. So they might get a gripe or two for googling refs. But looking up basketball players on google isn't really doing much more than cutting out the middle-man. EDIT: Of course this is assuming that the photos are only REFERENCE, for anatomy and whatnot. And not traced. We don't trace, ever. Tracers should be lynched. Esroc fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Jan 23, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 06:43
|
|
|
Esroc posted:As an artist who has worked professionally in the past, I can say that no illustrator in the business would knock someone for using a photograph as reference. For instance, that post about the Slam Dunk manga where the artist used actual players as reference. Any professional illustrator who looked at that would say "Well..yeah. How else are you supposed to get the reference?" That and there's something to be said for referencing professional basketball players because their form is going to be much more polished than a bunch of random people at the park.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 06:48
|
|
|
cuntvalet posted:That and there's something to be said for referencing professional basketball players because their form is going to be much more polished than a bunch of random people at the park. Good point. I often use photos of body builders off of Google when I draw for various Superhero comics, because my group of friends don't have a single decent muscle between all of them. They'd be useless for such a reference.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 06:50
|
|
|
I am trying so hard not to derail this thread. I am not arguing against reference. There's a difference between referencing and literally copying a photograph, and without permission to boot. The first is fine, the second is unethical and can get your rear end sued or at the very least fired. Those images are copied, without permission, and the artist stated several times that he never used reference for that manga. I said he was plagiarizing and that is wrong. I never said that using reference is bad. Edit: I'm also an illustrator and I use reference. It's just that what that dude was doing wasn't referencing, not as I learned it and not as I know that any other artists use it. Taking a single photograph and copying it? That's not how it's done, and if you're going to do that then at least take your own photos or ask the photographer for permission. the kawaiiest fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Jan 23, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 06:54
|
|
|
the kawaiiest posted:There's a difference between referencing and literally copying a photograph, and without permission to boot. The first is fine, the second is unethical and can get your rear end sued, too. I will admit that referencing is a fine line. Too close to the photo, and you're copying it. But too different from the photo and you may as well not use it at all. It's all a balancing act. A grey area.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 07:00
|
|
|
Esroc posted:I will admit that referencing is a fine line. Too close to the photo, and you're copying it. But too different from the photo and you may as well not use it at all. It's all a balancing act. A grey area. This is proper referencing. What Inoue did is not. It's the same kind of poo poo that David Mack did some time ago.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 07:04
|
|
|
Once I read a published and quite expensive picture book that was pretty much an illustrated exploration diary... like Dinotopia, but more cartoony and fairylandish. I was kinda liking it until I got to one image of a merman that was clearly traced from Alan Lee's drawing in Fairies. I wanted to point it out to someone but didn't have internet at the time. I hope the douche got canned for it. He was a good artist, too. No idea why he then stole from one of the most famous picture books in the genre. Unless all his drawings were traced from other poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 08:11
|
|
|
I think Denise was jealous that Uglynoodles and I could draw way better than she could (can). I came from drawing realistic horses, so I was awesome at shading. Uglynoodles was (and is) just awesome. Denise just doesn't want to put the effort forward to learn. Anyway. I remembered something. Hey Kat, Gackt is in love with me! So, back when I was still in high school (probably around '06), Parrier started her Gackt Phase. Suddenly she's listening to Gackt non-stop. Buying all the CD releases, that movie he made (Moonchild, I think its called? TOO LAZY TO GOOGLE). The whole shebang, as usual. And then she meets him on the Astral Plane or whatever. From what I gather, he's got this backstory (hell, maybe Parrier made the whole thing up) where he was rly a French vampire that was 300 (400?) years old. Which, of course, would work beautifully in with her prior fascination for French vampires (Lestat). To be fair, I didn't mind too much watching her google image search "naked gackt". Dude's pretty easy on the eyes. Don't care too much for most of his songs, though. Never really got into them, despite pretty music videos. Anyway. On her trip to Japan, she went to his concert. Parrier: It's his RETIREMENT concert. THE LAST GACKT CONCERT EVER. Me: Hasn't he retired like... 3 times now? Parrier: THIS IS 4 REAL. HE TOLD ME. Well, Parrier went into the concert with the belief that, since she'd been chatting/sexing with Gackt all over the Astral Plane, something might 'trigger' in Gackt's head and he'd, I dunno, marry her? I'm not sure where she was going with this. Needless to say, that didn't happen. BUT! She left her e-mail with one of his entourage or something.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 08:21
|
|
the kawaiiest posted:This is her art Jesus Christ how is it even possible to be this bad? I understand being inexperienced, I understand having dumb ideas, I understand having no concept of theory, but sheesh, even if I were putting pencil to paper for the very first time, only rarely saw real humans in the flesh, and had never heard or read a word of theory or advice, I would think I'd AT LEAST be able to realize that eye is way too far to the left before drawing it just by looking at the "nose" and the other eye.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 09:09
|
|
|
Electric Pope posted:Jesus Christ how is it even possible to be this bad? I understand being inexperienced, I understand having dumb ideas, I understand having no concept of theory, but sheesh, even if I were putting pencil to paper for the very first time, only rarely saw real humans in the flesh, and had never heard or read a word of theory or advice, I would think I'd AT LEAST be able to realize that eye is way too far to the left before drawing it just by looking at the "nose" and the other eye. I dunno, I was about this bad when I was about twelve and using pictures from Sailor Moon as a reference. And I have incredibly poor pen control. But the thing about someone who draws like this is that not only are they not trying to draw a real human, they don't see how the drawings are based on real humans. They don't see how real humans relate to their 'art'. It's about copying the way the lines in whatever picture they like does it. There's just really no understanding of the concept that these patterns of lines are supposed to be a stylized representation of a real person.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 09:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 12:14 |
|
|
Electric Pope posted:Jesus Christ how is it even possible to be this bad? quote:Yeah... we are working our way up to an online shop.... right now we are showing them for free on our website... and just trying to build a fan-base? I guess.... not that its working to well... but, I Think they are awesome.. lol... It just never ceases to amaze me how delusional these kids are. I mean, I remember drawing horrible crap when I was in my teens, but I never thought I was any good at drawing, because I'd see other people's drawings and that would make me realize that mine were awful. These kids seem to be unable to do that, it's like they look at their lovely art and see a James Jean or something. This isn't even Dunning-Kruger anymore, it's like it's worse somehow. I swear, anime and the internet have broken an entire generation. Possibly two.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2012 09:56
|
|