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Tarezax posted:I remember it being phrased as "how the water gets in and the poo poo gets out". Terry Pratchett posted:I was once on a panel as some international fantasy convention where the creation of fantasy cities was discussed, and some of the Americans weren't very impressed when I said that you had to start out by wondering how the fresh water got in and how the sewage got out. But worrying about the fresh water is a major concern of all cities. The sewage hasn't always been quite such a problem because someone somewhere has generally made some money out of taking it away, or there was a handy river. World building from the bottom up, to use a happy phrase, is more fruitful than doing it from the top down. How do the million inhabitants get fed? How are they policed? What kind of politics evolve?
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Jan 14, 2012 19:39
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Dead Alice posted:Does every city have a King of the Golden River? Only the ones where the handling of waste is not controlled as a government monopoly, or has been so tied up in miles of regulation, red tape and kickbacks that an honest (mostly) merchant has to either give up or knuckle under. That is the most interesting element of Vetinary; total dictatorial power handled in a way to enforce the rule of law and not the rule of a single power-maddened loon. And how does it survive past Vetinary's death?
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Jan 15, 2012 06:18
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Desiree Cousteau posted:Only the ones where the handling of waste is not controlled as a government monopoly, or has been so tied up in miles of regulation, red tape and kickbacks that an honest (mostly) merchant has to either give up or knuckle under. He passes his power onto the one man who thinks as straight as a corkscrew: Moist. And he sets Vimes to watch him.
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Jan 15, 2012 06:38
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And also secretly he becomes a zombie or something so he can keep an eye on things and subtly intervene if needed. Vetinari cannot truly die. And if you suggest otherwise I shall put my fingers in my ears and go lalalala.
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Jan 15, 2012 06:49
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Vimes doesn't have that many years left in him, himself.
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Jan 15, 2012 06:52
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Which is why Vimes has set Carrot to watch him. I always wondered if Pratchett was setting up Moist as a foil to Carrot for the theoretical power struggle when Vetinari dies. And speaking of Death, I honestly expected a totally different story for Snuff. Did anyone else think it was going to be Vimes' last story, his cigar being...snuffed out?
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Jan 15, 2012 08:20
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wheatpuppy posted:And also secretly he becomes a zombie or something so he can keep an eye on things and subtly intervene if needed. Vetinari cannot truly die. And if you suggest otherwise I shall put my fingers in my ears and go lalalala. I believe he's on good terms with a certain lady vampire.
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Jan 15, 2012 09:07
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Or the Guilds and the Watch and the Wizards realize that the City worked excellently as is and simply go on playing off each other into the cobble-stoned road of infinity.
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Jan 15, 2012 10:03
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Mister Roboto posted:Did anyone else think it was going to be Vimes' last story, his cigar being...snuffed out? Yes, I totally did. Posted about how sure I was a few times as well. I think Angua is being set up to be the new smartarse bastard who none of the Guilds want to rile up rather than Carrot. She takes after Vimes more at least.
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Jan 15, 2012 13:57
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I've got to be honest and say that I don't think Vetinari is grooming Moist as a successor simply because maintaining stability is not what Moist does. Moist is a reformer, for him it's all about kicking things up and changing them around. Look at how he was at the start of Making Money with the post office nice and stable he was doing silly things to liven up his day, though a large part of that was the absence of Spike. He's still a vital part of whatever Vetinari's future plans are of course, before he can die or retire Vetinari needs to vitalise and modernise the pillars of the city, first the post office, then the banks and now he's looking at the tax system.
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Jan 15, 2012 14:36
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Vetinari seems, to me, to be arranging matters so that they will perpetuate themselves. It's exactly how I'd always pictured him thinking, too. Detail follows, it will probably spoil many books so I've just blacked out the whole thing: If you've got The Watch functioning properly, people won't be committing "big" crimes. The guilds self-regulate through infighting, all of them slapping down any single one that gets too strong. Moist makes changes for the better, but is held back by the guilds and the watch. Vimes and/or The Watch will slap down anyone trying a military coup, but the city has a strong army/workforce in the golems anyway. It also has a supply of cheap labour in the goblins. Speciesism is on the way out (especially after Snuff). Hell, the city even has the Device that looks like it's going to power the whole thing on its own. Pratchett has even stated in a few novels that Vetinari actually does almost nothing other than prod things gently when they go off-kilter - and he won't have to do that any more if he gets everything balanced. And yeah, he would make a pretty great vampire lord.
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Jan 17, 2012 04:26
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I'm waiting for the books to touch on Vetinari's darkest secret, to be honest. He's spent his life trying to stabilize the city - at first, through big events like assassinating Winder and through making a power play to become Patrician himself. Then he influences matters through smaller and smaller events, as he gets more experienced and subtler, until finally he does nothing more than, for example, suggest to Sybil that Vimes takes a holiday on the family estate. Eventually everything will be stable and prosperous once everything's in equilibrium. Vetinari is a Balancing Monk.
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Jan 17, 2012 20:49
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Penguingo posted:I'm waiting for the books to touch on Vetinari's darkest secret, to be honest. This is brilliant. Vetinari is possibly my favorite character in all of the books. Does this make me weird?
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Jan 19, 2012 01:10
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John Charity Spring posted:More like Space Invaders mixed with TIE Fighter, something like that. It's clear reading it that Pratchett knew/knows his poo poo when it comes to games, it's just that stuff like the fake manual and system requirements for the game in question at the beginning of the book no longer apply at all. And the reams of film references are probably a bit beyond most kids today - even though it's all stuff like Aliens, I'd wager most 10-year-olds nowadays aren't particularly aware of 80s action/sci-fi. I know this is a bit late, but the Johnny and the Bomb 3-part miniseries is frankly brilliant. They even managed to find two good child actors (Johnny and BigMac) and none of the cast is awful.
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Jan 19, 2012 02:15
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I just realized last night I never got the latest Discworld book and am now rather entrenched in Snuff, laughing my rear end off. I didn't care wildly for Unseen Academicals, but Snuff is thus far fantastic. Pratchett's still got it.
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Jan 21, 2012 19:58
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Zorak posted:I just realized last night I never got the latest Discworld book and am now rather entrenched in Snuff, laughing my rear end off. I didn't care wildly for Unseen Academicals, but Snuff is thus far fantastic. Pratchett's still got it. I honestly think you're the only fan I've seen who actually said Snuff was funnier than UA.
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Jan 21, 2012 20:24
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Mister Roboto posted:I honestly think you're the only fan I've seen who actually said Snuff was funnier than UA. Snuff rules, UA drools.
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Jan 21, 2012 20:33
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Mister Roboto posted:I honestly think you're the only fan I've seen who actually said Snuff was funnier than UA. I thought Snuff was better than UA. I wouldn't say either one of them was laugh-out-loud funny.
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Jan 21, 2012 20:34
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Mister Roboto posted:I honestly think you're the only fan I've seen who actually said Snuff was funnier than UA. I think the dialog is a lot wittier and amusing in structure, and frankly, I find the characters a lot more interesting (Vimes is as great as ever, and he and Wittikins have good chemistry, if you will). The primary cast in Unseen Academicals, beyond the wizards, were rather on the dullish side.
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Jan 21, 2012 23:35
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I cannot remember the name of a single person in UA, and that is a first for me. I know there was Football Guy, Blondie, Sorta-Agnes-Nitt and The Goblorc, but bugger me if I can remember their names. I keep thinking the orc was called Mr Pin for some reason. I'd have much rather read a book about Mr Pin.
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Jan 21, 2012 23:38
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Unseen Academicals suffered a bit from the Going Postal-style "protagonist effortlessly rolls over anything in his way" syndrome, and the non-wizard cast all merged into one weird morass of fake working-class accents, but if you can't remember the antics of the UU faculty then I think you might be in trouble. You know, like that bit where they blustered amusingly. Or had an argument. Or spoke to Hex. Or... uh. Oh god it's true, nothing memorable happened in the entire book  Mr Pin was in The Truth, by the way. He's the one that looks like a bit like Steve Buscemi when you read about him. e: UU was still better than Snuff, though. That's not to say I didn't like the books - just that they were enjoyably good rather than the straight-up fantastic of earlier ones where character building was more important than hammering the discworld to fit into a "modern world" mould. Inexplicable Humblebrag fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Jan 22, 2012 |
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Jan 22, 2012 00:58
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Nilbop posted:I keep thinking the orc was called Mr Pin for some reason. He's Mr Nutt. You're confusing him with Mr Tulip and Mr Pin, the "New Firm" enforcers in The Truth.
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Jan 22, 2012 01:09
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Jedit posted:He's Mr Nutt. You're confusing him with Mr Tulip and Mr Pin, the "New Firm" enforcers in The Truth. Oh, I knew who they were.
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Jan 22, 2012 01:14
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UA is still a solid book, but it is definitely one of the weaker of the Discworld novels. I'm surprised I couldn't remember Mr Nutt's name, the other lad was Likely? or something? Dave Likelys lad? poo poo I have no idea.
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Jan 22, 2012 02:20
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Penguingo posted:Oh god it's true, nothing memorable happened in the entire book Hicks the necromancer, with his acceptable level of evil and slipping flyers for plays into people's pockets was the breakout character of UA for me.
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Jan 22, 2012 02:25
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I've just never really enjoyed the UU staff. They've never seemed all that funny to me and while I've liked things witht hem in them, it's only been with the wizards as side characters, like Lords and Ladies.
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Jan 22, 2012 02:35
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Yes they are top-of-the-tree side characters. Mustrum Ridcully is so perfectly formed it is absolutely uncanny.
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Jan 22, 2012 04:20
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Penguingo posted:Oh god it's true, nothing memorable happened in the entire book
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Jan 22, 2012 21:03
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Nilbop posted:Yes they are top-of-the-tree side characters. Mustrum Ridcully is so perfectly formed it is absolutely uncanny. I've always thought of him as Teddy Roosevelt the Wizard.
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Jan 23, 2012 06:21
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Canemacar posted:I've always thought of him as Teddy Roosevelt the Wizard. I've never thought of it in those exact terms, but now that I hear it, "Teddy Roosevelt the Wizard" is really drat close to how I pictured him too.
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Jan 23, 2012 06:47
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Yeah, that's an absolutely dead-on description.
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Jan 23, 2012 06:51
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Nilbop posted:Yes they are top-of-the-tree side characters. Mustrum Ridcully is so perfectly formed it is absolutely uncanny.
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Jan 23, 2012 06:59
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Pratchett claims that he's always hearing from cops who insist they know a Nobbs or a Colon, and usually from an obvious Nobbs or Colon.
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Jan 23, 2012 07:10
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ConfusedUs posted:I've never thought of it in those exact terms, but now that I hear it, "Teddy Roosevelt the Wizard" is really drat close to how I pictured him too. I always imagined him as basically being Brian Blessed.
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Jan 23, 2012 11:07
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I was just reading Guards! Guards! again for probably the thousandth time, and I noticed something I never noticed before. Spoilers for some of the Guards books follow. Before Carrot has any inkling that he's the rightful heir (has it ever been actually established beyond a doubt that he is? I can't remember), just after the point where Errol defeats the big dragon, the guards start running towards the palace. Vimes asks if anyone's still got a sword, and Carrot says "You can use mine". Major loving foreshadowing there....
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Jan 24, 2012 01:02
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I've a question about Dark Side of the Sun. Is this some sort of Anti-Dune story? Or is it more of an Norstrillia plot, or some combination of the two? When I read it originally I thought it was a wierd inversion of Dune, the theocratic rule, the planet is all wet, the Goo, the plucking of pearls from the dragons... But then Dom Sablos also travels offworld which Mauve-Bib never does, and that part, with the shielding of the ships from hyperspace, the sentient planet, the robots, all seem more Cordwainer Smith-y. Even the tone makes me think more of Norstrillia. With robots taking the place of sub-people like C-Mell.
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Jan 25, 2012 17:44
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I wasn't so sure of Snuff myself, it was nice to see vimes' home life expanded upon but overall I thought he was too smart in the book. He never REALLY seemed to be in danger and he always had Wilikins there to back him up anyway. One of the reasons I thought Nightwatch was great was because he was stuck trying to preserve the future he had and his 'almost breakdown' where he just needed something he could hold to show it was still possible really moved me. But it never felt like there was any real danger for him.
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Jan 25, 2012 21:26
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Agree completely, KayGee. Vimes should've SUFFERED from the Summoning Dark, not benefited. Just imagine how different the book would've been if Vimes had LOST all his night vision instead. I swear I predicted that was actually going to be the theme of Snuff when I heard the title--the snuffing out of Vimes' light. He'd have to cope with being a night watchman who was blind at night, relying on that talent of reading the ground he has. Sort of going back to his roots instead of becoming supercop. Perhaps it could work as a metaphor for his career being snuffed out as well. AND it could've fit the themes of racism in the blunt but fitting message that in the dark, we all look the same. A big part of Pratchett's writings has ALWAYS been that things come at a price. Vimes beat an ancient curse, but where's the price? I'm hoping, but I'm probably wrong, that Pratchett is building up Vimes' infallibility deliberately just to break it down for Vimes' exit from the world--imagine everything falling apart, his city powers, his titles, his family, and he hits rock bottom, just like we found him...and we see him rebuild from scratch just to show how much he's changed since his drunken days. That'd be a great perfect bookend to end Vimes on.
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Jan 25, 2012 21:34
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Mister Roboto posted:A big part of Pratchett's writings has ALWAYS been that things come at a price. Vimes beat an ancient curse, but where's the price? Vimes benefits from the Summoning Dark because of his job. As a nightwatchman his power is symbolically tied to the night, so when he uses it during the day he is technically making the day part of the night - which in a way is summoning the dark. The price he pays is that because he can do this, he can never actually stop being a copper, and he pays that price every day.
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Jan 26, 2012 00:06
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Presto posted:The great thing about a lot of Pratchett's characters is that you probably know someone like them. The world is filled with Nanny Oggs and Mustrum Ridcullys and Sergeant Colons. I, for example, am related to a whole clan of Granny Weatherwaxes. It was terrible, every single one of my aunts knew what I was doing before I did. And my uncles and cousins and brothers-in-laws all have the single attitude of, "get out of the way and let it by". It is kind of funny though. I think none of my aunts quite understand why they don't get along with their daughters-in-laws.
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Jan 26, 2012 02:31
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