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The clone numbers wouldn't have been so bad if all the clones were treated as elite commando and infiltration units and the vast, vast, vast, vast bulk of the fighting was done by everyday ordinary citizens and militia. But the movies and shows did a really bad job of it.
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Jan 23, 2012 05:56
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WhyteRyce posted:The clone numbers wouldn't have been so bad if all the clones were treated as elite commando and infiltration units and the vast, vast, vast, vast bulk of the fighting was done by everyday ordinary citizens and militia. But the movies and shows did a really bad job of it.
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Jan 23, 2012 06:01
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Flagrant Abuse posted:Isn't that how the EU explains it as long as you ignore KT's drivel? I've never really been interested in that era aside from Coruscant Nights, so I don't know for sure. Some EU novel really try hard to do that, but we all know how the novels hold up against the movies and TV shows.
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Jan 23, 2012 06:54
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The EU bless its heart tries so hard to retcon George Lucas's bullshit. But it's a lost cause.
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Jan 23, 2012 06:56
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Esroc posted:Can someone explain to me the, timeline I guess, of the creation of the Clone Army? I've always been a bit confused on that matter. I know Palpatine orchestrated the creation of the army so that he would have one to command once he rose to power but I've been unable to sort out the exact sequence of events. I know he somehow used Dooku and Sifo Dyas to do it, but how did he convince Sifo Dyas to go along with it without the Jedi Order finding out? Why did the Jedi not even know about it until the Clones strolled up on Coruscants doorstep? And why the hell did they just shrug and go "Welp, okay!" and use the Army with no real questioning of why it was created in the first place?  HERE BE SPOILERS! Ok, it was actually Plagueis who set things in motion for the Clones, and he approached Sifo-Dyas. Sifo-Dyas was becoming concerned about the unrest in the outlying systems, and knew that the Jedi would not be able to fight a war. Plagueis, in his everyday guise of Hego Damask, approached Sifo and mentioned the idea of forming a army "just in case". If it was never needed, Damask/Plagueis would've absorbed the costs associated. But if it was ever needed, it would be sitting there waiting. Sifo-Dyas thought this was a reasonable idea, and agreed to begin setting things up on Kamino as an intermediary: Damask/Plagueis would funnel Sifo-Dyas money to pay the Kaminoians to begin setting up the facilities to grow, house, and train the clone army. After Sidious recruited Dooku (and the book flat out admits that Palpy considered Dooku a placeholder until Anakin was old enough), Dooku gave Jango his marching orders. Jango went to Kamino, et cetera.
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Jan 23, 2012 06:58
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Hey, maybe if that plot line was in the movies they wouldn't have been so loving stupid.
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Jan 23, 2012 07:13
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Oh, and I should have mentioned this earlier, but anyone planning on picking up Darth Plagueis (But Really It's About Palpatine) should be forewarned: There is a lot of politicking. Of course, seeing as this book covers Palpy's rise to power, it's only to be expected. Still, I just know somebody's gonna pick it up, see the phrase "Taxation of Free Trade Routes" and throw it in anger. And remember, Luceno may not be the best EU author *COUGH*Zahn*COUGH*, but he's hardly the worst *COUGH*Anderson*COUGH* either. Gotta get that cold checked out...
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Jan 23, 2012 09:05
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Ensign_Ricky posted:And remember, Luceno may not be the best EU author *COUGH*Zahn*COUGH*, but he's hardly the worst *COUGH*Anderson*COUGH* either. In my opinion, after reading every novel except Plageuis (which I just started) and Revan, if the entire EU was written by Zahn, Stover, and Luceno then the world would be a better place. And maybe Kemp. Crosscurrent and Rip Tide were fun reads. EDIT: And Jedi Trial by David Sherman and Dan Cragg is by and far the worst EU Book ever. If not the worst book period. I'd read Anderson's entire bibliography before being subjected to Trial again. Esroc fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Jan 23, 2012 |
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Jan 23, 2012 11:03
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Esroc posted:In my opinion, after reading every novel except Plageuis (which I just started) and Revan, if the entire EU was written by Zahn, Stover, and Luceno then the world would be a better place. And maybe Kemp. Crosscurrent and Rip Tide were fun reads. Zahn's writing is good on a technical/storytelling level but I wish he'd write about more than his two pet characters (Thrawn/Mara Jade). At least Allston and Stover can write about things other than their pet characters. And this is coming from someone who likes Mara Jade. I think the only SW thing that Zahn has written that didn't focus on Thrawn or Mara Jade was his 'Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina' story, and even that co-opted two on-screen characters and made them two of his made-up characters from the Thrawn Trilogy in disguise. I always felt that was a bit of a cop-out.
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Jan 23, 2012 11:14
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Xenomrph posted:You meant Allston and Stover. I never found Allston to be that great. Whenever I read his X-Wing novels and then eventually his entries in the Legacy era I didn't even realize they were the same author. His writing style is largely forgettable.
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Jan 23, 2012 11:19
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Mr. Funny Pants posted:What I've always thought was ridiculous was the quantity of clones. 10 million? Are you making GBS threads me? That wouldn't be enough soldiers to take one planet, never mind fight on thousands of them. Come on George, would it have killed you to add a few zeros and make it plausible? Well, if you don't mind me spergin' out for a bit, you have to remember that each individual clone was the pinnacle of human ability. Programmed and designed specifically to be perfect at their job. So one clone could easily be worth five or more regular soldiers. Couple that with each platoon having a Jedi General, whom is easily worth 20 soldiers by him or herself. With that number increasing if the General is a Master. Plus, I don't think it was "thousands" of worlds. More like hundreds. The major battles of the Clone Wars took place on very few worlds (in comparison to the size of The Galaxy, at any rate). A cursory glance at Wookiepedia supports this. You can also assume that the Republic rarely, if ever, had to occupy a planet cleared of the Separatists. With the adversary being droids, there was no need to capture any enemy to keep tabs on. They'd just wipe the planet clean of them and move on. EDIT: Going through the trouble to research this and type it up has helped me realize why I'm divorced though, so there's that. Esroc fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Jan 23, 2012 |
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Jan 23, 2012 12:01
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Hey, maybe if that plot line was in the movies they wouldn't have been so loving stupid. I think it's still a stupid explanation. The fact that it's now Emperor Palpatine's Sith Master fooling a Jedi master into creating an army with the timeless argument of "why not, what harm can it do?" does nothing to change the stupidity of it all. Like how the Jedi just accept the army without any kind of research. Which brings me to a question: What's up with Order 66? I've seen discussions about whether it was a subconsciously planted order (which would explain why the Jedi couldn't use Force telepathy(tm) to see it coming) or just a regular one. Wookipedia tells me it's the latter. This means that the Clones had a manual they had to learn by heart where it reads "Order 66: If the Chancellor orders you to kill Jedi, you do it without question, right away". Is there any explanation about how the Jedi missed this? The article says the order has been "sufficiently buried among the other one hundred forty-nine orders so as to almost escape notice", which means that the Jedi at least had a chance to look at it, and which is also pretty ridiculous. Supposedly the Jedi just went tl;dr after they read 50 orders, and when they came to the "kill all Jedi immediately"-order their ADD was kicking in? What did the Kaminoans have to say about this? You'd think that they would say something to the Jedi about it.
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Jan 23, 2012 12:24
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^^^^ According to the vast majority of the EU (largely thanks to Karen Traviss' relentless efforts) the clones weren't given any sort of subconscious programming, they were just following orders. However, the ROTS novelization by Stover, which was apparently given a line-by-line readover and approval by Lucas, specifically does state that Order 66 was programmed into the clones. Personally I think this is one area where Lucas (if he did indeed approve Stover's change) is in the right. I would have thought Traviss would agree, as it removes from the clones any agency they had in committing such a heinous act. But I'm guessing she either didn't want to write anything that would make her beloved clones less than human, and in her own little Star Wars universe the clones all hate the Jedi so much they of course wouldn't object. But it still comes off to me as strange that Traviss basically gives credence to the whole "I was just following orders" defense (also ironic given how on her website, she says that fans of the Jedi are literal Nazis). Also, the Clone Wars show is apparently going to be "explaining" Order 66 in a future episode. I can't imagine a way that that will come off well. Ensign_Ricky posted:Oh, and I should have mentioned this earlier, but anyone planning on picking up Darth Plagueis (But Really It's About Palpatine) should be forewarned: There is a lot of politicking. Of course, seeing as this book covers Palpy's rise to power, it's only to be expected. Still, I just know somebody's gonna pick it up, see the phrase "Taxation of Free Trade Routes" and throw it in anger. Like Esroc, I think that Luceno is one of the top three or four EU authors, and I think he handled politics really well in Cloak of Deception (it's as close to a political thriller as Star Wars has), so that doesn't worry me at all. And I also have never gotten the love for Allston. I met him at a convention once and he's a really nice guy, but I think his plots aren't amazing and his humor is pretty awkward. Also he's hugely tainted by his involvement in the clusterfucks of Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi. He may be the best of the four authors involved in those series, but he still has to shoulder a ton of the blame for just how truly bad those series are.
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Jan 23, 2012 15:01
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Chairman Capone posted:According to the vast majority of the EU (largely thanks to Karen Traviss' relentless efforts) the clones weren't given any sort of subconscious programming, they were just following orders. However, the ROTS novelization by Stover, which was apparently given a line-by-line readover and approval by Lucas, specifically does state that Order 66 was programmed into the clones. I have heard good things about the ROTS novelization, and this is one of them. I have also heard lots of bad things about Karen Traviss, and this is one of them. The clones hated the Jedi? To such an extent that they'd willingly follow any order that told them to kill them? How does that work out when the proficiency with which Jedi can sense stuff has been overblown so much by the EU and prequels? This explanation makes the Jedi appear like inept morons even more than any other, because they willingly lead a bunch of hostile people of dubious origin into battle. I could accept sneaky Palpatine or whoever implementing this order secretly into the Clone's subconsciousness. A secret order that gives him absolute control over the Clones makes sense, because they are his babies, his means to seize the throne. Making it a regular order doesn't make sense on any level whatsoever. Did Palpatine or whoever just hope that the Clones turned out like they did? Did he foresee it? Did he have the brilliant idea to "hide" the order by just writing lots of other orders and hope that the Jedi are too lazy to read all of them and think about what they mean? quote:Also, the Clone Wars show is apparently going to be "explaining" Order 66 in a future episode. I can't imagine a way that that will come off well. Yeah, looking at how they explained the prophecy about balance I'm not very hopeful, either.
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Jan 23, 2012 15:28
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Grendels Dad posted:Did he have the brilliant idea to "hide" the order by just writing lots of other orders and hope that the Jedi are too lazy to read all of them and think about what they mean? This is actually exactly what happened. It of course is from one of Traviss' books. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Contingency_Orders_for_the_Grand_Army_of_the_Republic:_Order_Initiation,_Orders_1_Through_150
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Jan 23, 2012 15:38
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Grendels Dad posted:I think it's still a stupid explanation. The fact that it's now Emperor Palpatine's Sith Master fooling a Jedi master into creating an army with the timeless argument of "why not, what harm can it do?" does nothing to change the stupidity of it all. Like how the Jedi just accept the army without any kind of research. As far as why the Jedi accept it, I can't say. Darth Plagueis ends about a week after TPM. So while the clone plan is underway, it's still a long way from fruition. And Luceno also hints that Order 66 is a subconsciously programmed thing as well.
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Jan 23, 2012 16:47
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It would have made more sense if Order 66 was a blanket order along the lines of, "In the event your Jedi leader is revealed to be a Sith or otherwise a traitor, you are ordered to exterminate with extreme prejudice." Which makes sense. It's not as though the troopers would get the order and then sit their Jedi general down to figure out the truth. It would basically be out there in plain sight with the assumption that it will either never be used, or used maybe once. The Republic justifies it because they need to have a check on the Jedi's power, and the Jedi (reluctantly?) accept it because they know there's a sith out there somewhere and he probably has infiltrators. unlimited shrimp fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jan 23, 2012 |
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Jan 23, 2012 16:51
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SpaceMost posted:It would have made more sense if Order 66 was a blanket order along the lines of, "In the event your Jedi leader is revealed to be a Sith or otherwise a traitor, you are ordered to exterminate with extreme prejudice." Which makes sense. It's not as though the troopers would get the order and then sit their Jedi general down to figure out the truth. This makes sense, sort of. In this scenario Palpatine would basically act as some sort of General Ripper issuing orders which, once given, cannot be verified, specified or withdrawn. It still leaves the question open how Palpatine was in the position to have a direct com-link to every single Clone Trooper squad and was able to issue that order to all of them. I mean, this order is basically a huge red "I'm in charge now!"-button, and people just seem to have left it in Space Hitler's office. Maybe he told the right people that the Jedi were after their fluids 
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Jan 23, 2012 17:21
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Did his ascension to Roman-esque Dictator happen before or after the clone army was brought online? If the order of events was: Clones are trained & conditioned > clone army is deployed against the separatists with the Jedi as commanders > Palpatine becomes a dictator ... There's not much the Jedi could have done short of quitting the war and abandoning the Republic. I that case, I assume the combination of not wanting to abandon the Republic + not being able to detect Palpatine's sith-ness, made them stick around.
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Jan 23, 2012 17:30
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Chairman Capone posted:
Having just finished Plagueis, I find myself appreciating Luceno more. I feel if I stay away from the multi-author series (NJO and Legacy I guess?) I'll be able to maintain my enjoyment of his books. As I explained Star Wars EU to my girlfriend last night, finding a good Star Wars book gives the same sort of feeling that eating a plain salad would - if you had previously been feasting on plates of dog poo poo, that salad is going to taste divine. quote:In the realm of EU authors, my stereotypes of the "readable" authors are as follows: SpaceMost posted:Did his ascension to Roman-esque Dictator happen before or after the clone army was brought online? If I recall correctly, you're right about the order of events. Clones were bred/trained ~ 10 years before they were needed, when Palpatine was still the Naboo Senator. After the Naboo blockade in TPM, the vote of no-confidence in Valorum results in Palpatine becoming Supreme Chancellor. Then the army is "found" and used, but I don't think Palpatine received his emergency powers until AotC? Fuzzy on that part, but having just finished Plagueis an hour ago the rest is clear. In my quick Wookipedia search about the Clone Army, I found out that Sifo-Dyas was killed by Dooku, who then saved his body until the banking clan used his blood to make Grievous. What the gently caress.
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Jan 23, 2012 18:16
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Chairman Capone posted:This is actually exactly what happened. It of course is from one of Traviss' books. One thing I genuinely liked about this is order 65: "See? If the Senate votes me out, they can arrest or even kill me. Now isn't it only fair to add the same precaution for you Jedi?" Add ten or more like these (for ordinary military commanders, for other clones, for senators, for heads of state...) and it's much more likely the significance of order 66 gets lost in the muddle.
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Jan 23, 2012 18:41
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omg car crash posted:I just can't believe they took the idea about Revan more less not actually falling to the dark side but instead waged a war to create a galaxy strong to defeat to Sith and replaced it with him getting MIND CONTROLLED by Darth Emperor of the Imperium of Mankind. Such a terrible cop-out. Chairman Capone posted:The absolute weirdest thing about those episodes, though, is that somehow they got Liam Neeson to voice Qui-Gon's Force ghost. I still can't imagine how they possibly did that. I know I'm going to be dissapointed.
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Jan 23, 2012 18:44
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SO after a brief discussion of Star Wars in the general chat thread I decided to do a rewatch of the Original Trilogy. Currently on Empire and hearing Obi Wan's disconnected voice really helped cement the fact that Ewan MacGregor did an amazing job of becoming Alec Guinness while adding enough of his own flavour. Like, the voice is pretty much dead-on. Also, I have a new appreciation A New Hope. I always 'really liked it', but it ended up being caught somewhere in the middle for me. As a kid, Jedi was my favourite. When I grew up Empire became my favourite. Rewatching the original was kind of revelatory. I truly appreciated the attack on the Death Star on more than a visceral level. I always preferred the attack on the Death Star in Jedi, but Hope has such a tighter more economic version of it without overwhelming itself. While the space battle in Jedi is still great, it's really a tipping point into 'too much', which is basically the motto for any of the fight scenes in the prequels. I was also able to appreciate the fast and efficient storytelling--it's really amazing how quickly things move once they meet Han and Chewie--without sacrificing any character details. The way they layer the characters on is fantastic. There's enough time to develop everyone as the plot builds. We go from the robots to Luke, from Luke to Obi Wan, from Obi Wan to Han, from Han to Leia. And it works so well. I was also way more aware of the racial connotations of the different species' in the film and it added more to my 'experience' of the film than any book, video game or wiki ever could. I really think it may be my new favourite.
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Jan 23, 2012 18:52
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McGann posted:Luceno stuff If you've only read The Rise of Darth Vader and Plagueis by him, I think you're missing out as Rise of Darth Vader is one of, if not his absolute weakest book (although I haven't read his Millennium Falcon book). I loved Cloak of Deception and Labyrinth of Evil, which are his set-up novels to TPM and ROTS, respectively. They actually both also work hard to explain a lot of the problems with TPM and connect it more to the other prequels, when it tends to usually get left out. As I said, Cloak also works as a good political thriller of the stripe that TPM should have been. The Unifying Force was also a great book, especially given how it has to wrap up the entire earlier NJO while telling its own story. With that in mind I think Luceno hit it out of the park, and its bittersweet ending especially would have been a perfect place to end the EU (especially considering the poo poo that came after). His Agents of Chaos books aren't as good, but I don't think they're as terrible as a lot of people think. Luceno was close friends with Brian Daley, and Agents of Chaos was intended to be a spiritual sequel to Daley's Han Solo Trilogy (revisiting a lot of places and characters, the focus on Han on his own rather than with his family). Read with that in mind I think makes it a lot more enjoyable.
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Jan 23, 2012 19:14
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Millenium Falcon sucked. The entire book is one huge lead-up to what the characters continue to claim will be a discovery of great importance to the Galactic Alliance. And then they find it and it's a giant goddamn Republic seal. Congratulations you found yourselves a new wall poster and all you had to do to get it was put yourselves, your granddaughter, and your antique ship in mortal danger. 
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Jan 23, 2012 20:48
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Sean Stewart wrote the best EU book 
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Jan 23, 2012 21:00
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Also Jedi owned the Falcon. I'll let that sink in for a bit.
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Jan 23, 2012 23:12
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Chairman Capone posted:His Agents of Chaos books aren't as good, but I don't think they're as terrible as a lot of people think. Luceno was close friends with Brian Daley, and Agents of Chaos was intended to be a spiritual sequel to Daley's Han Solo Trilogy (revisiting a lot of places and characters, the focus on Han on his own rather than with his family). Read with that in mind I think makes it a lot more enjoyable. In that didn't Han paint the Falcon black and go on some emo leave-me-alone manchild adventure abandoning his family without a thought? Agents of Chaos 1 was the only NJO book I couldn't sell in a garage sale.
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Jan 23, 2012 23:35
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Throb Robinson posted:Also Jedi owned the Falcon.
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Jan 24, 2012 00:00
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Just wanted to make sure that we're all aware of this thread. I watched up until 3PO and R2 make it out of the escape pod and almost died laughing like 3 times, especially at the sound effects for Leia loading the plans into R2. Can't wait to watch the whole thing later!
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Jan 24, 2012 00:08
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Xenomrph posted:I haven't read 'Milennium Falcon' (yet, I do have a copy I got for cheap) but I'm not seeing the problem with that. Yes but you're Xenomrph.
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Jan 24, 2012 00:12
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Edit; never mind, ignore this.
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Jan 24, 2012 04:22
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arioch posted:Yes but you're Xenomrph. 
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Jan 24, 2012 05:24
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I mean, Han did lose Chewie and that was kind of a big deal with him. That kind of excuses some of his action in Agents of Chaos.
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Jan 24, 2012 06:48
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Just wanted to make sure that we're all aware of this thread. This is way old, I watched the premier in a cinema. It still kicks arse though, in a very geeky way.
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Jan 24, 2012 08:54
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Been reorganizing my bookshelf today and looking at my old, battered collection of Star Wars books. I've got about 80% of the stuff from Truce at Bakura through to the start of the NJO and about a third of that. I think I'll keep the choice bits from that and try and get the rest of the NJO at least, but is there anything redeemable about LotF/FotJ? Anything at all? Feels like ages since I read a good Star Wars book, though I suppose Zahn has done Outbound Flight and Allegiance which I've yet to read.
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Jan 24, 2012 10:05
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Sodomy Non Sapiens posted:Been reorganizing my bookshelf today and looking at my old, battered collection of Star Wars books. I've got about 80% of the stuff from Truce at Bakura through to the start of the NJO and about a third of that. I think I'll keep the choice bits from that and try and get the rest of the NJO at least, but is there anything redeemable about LotF/FotJ? Anything at all? Feels like ages since I read a good Star Wars book, though I suppose Zahn has done Outbound Flight and Allegiance which I've yet to read. Allegiance and Choices of One (his newest) are pretty cool.
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Jan 24, 2012 10:18
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Outbound Flight is almost painful to read with how Zahn puts Thrawn on the biggest pedestal he could find and then boosts it into orbit. He even seems to realize this and tries to lampshade it by giving him flaws and emotions which don't work at all because they just result in him doing more awesome poo poo. I'm reading Survivor's Quest now and it isn't bad, but it's painfully obvious that Outbound Flight was a lame attempt at a duology by purposely leaving details out of the previous book. At most the thing should have been a novella, at almost 500 pages it's a snore.
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Jan 24, 2012 10:54
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Chairman Capone posted:I loved Cloak of Deception and Labyrinth of Evil, which are his set-up novels to TPM and ROTS, respectively. They actually both also work hard to explain a lot of the problems with TPM and connect it more to the other prequels, when it tends to usually get left out. As I said, Cloak also works as a good political thriller of the stripe that TPM should have been. Kindle loaded with Cloak of Deception and Labyrinth. Thanks for the recommendation! Though i'm barely into Deception...and evidently (wookipedia tells me) this Captain Cohl and his Hawkbat has nothing at all to do with the Wraith Squadron "Hawkbat". I could have sworn that Aalston wrote about them impersonating a pirate group and operating under their name, but wookipedia makes no mention of a connection. So coincidence? Been a while since I read any of the Wraith books.
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Jan 24, 2012 17:57
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McGann posted:Kindle loaded with Cloak of Deception and Labyrinth. Thanks for the recommendation! Though i'm barely into Deception...and evidently (wookipedia tells me) this Captain Cohl and his Hawkbat has nothing at all to do with the Wraith Squadron "Hawkbat". As I recall, the Wraiths came up with the Hawkbats name on their own, they didn't impersonate anybody. In-universe, it's not hard to imagine two differnt groups naming themselves after the same animal. Whether the author off Cloak of Deception meant it as a nod to Aalston is anyone's guess, he may have just gone down a list of Star Wars animals and picked one.
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Jan 24, 2012 19:42
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