|
You know, this is actually a nice parallel to the other Heart player. Nepeta couldn't bring herself to confess to Karkat, and Dirk is having a hard time confessing to Jake.
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 09:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 04:02 |
|
|
QueerPope posted:Unless we get a callback to the I Am Not A Homosexual conversation. The thing I think would be most hilarious, and I'd deeply like to see, is Dirk doing a callback to that line but with "heterosexual" instead. Dolash posted:Also there's a lot more relationship shtick with these new kids over the original four kids. Maybe less than the trolls, but certainly quite a bit. I think it might be a result of them being older, especially following what the auto-responder just said about not having any strong 'feelings' about anyone and being the 13-year-old Dirk. Yeah I think it's definitely a result of them being older. Everyone but Jane is almost 16, while Jane herself is 15 and a half. By that age, a lot of kids have started dating and thinking about things like that. EDIT: Boneless Jogger posted:Another thing to glean from this update is that Roxy's browser is Nix, which means her Denizen is probably the same. Also this is pretty cool! It makes sense for a Void player, too. dumb brunette fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Jan 24, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 09:25
|
|
|
QueerPope posted:I think this is a funny case of fandom predicting canon incredibly fast and accurately. They weren't even trying to think of why Jake/Dirk would be canon (they didn't even know Dirk's name) but they drew fanart of it and now it will be canon. I think it's more like fandom influencing canon. Hussie has said before that fans more often inspire future things instead of predicting they will turn out to be true, I think that's initially how Tavros wound up as a cripple. This instance however, is not really sitting well with me, it feels like Andrew is directly pandering to a particular clique of fans that should never be pandered to (the yaoi fanatics).
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 09:31
|
|
|
AH posted:[On more romance being in the comic] If so, it wouldn’t be for the shippers. The shippers are already up to their necks in romantic nonsense. It would be for the non-shippers, who try to avoid that stuff as best they can. If I did as you say, there would be no escaping it anymore. Hussie!!!!  Silva posted:I think it's more like fandom influencing canon. Hussie has said before that fans more often inspire future things instead of predicting they will turn out to be true, I think that's initially how Tavros wound up as a cripple. Theories about Bro's sexual orientation go back to pretty much his introduction, a million years ago. Hussie actually going with it is no different than going along with any other longstanding fan theory. Not all gay characters are pandering  (although I agree that yaoi fans are terrible and should never be pandered to, and in fact should all be lit on fire, but I don't think this is pandering. And Dirk being attracted to Jake is no different/no more pandering than Jane being into him. Whether or not you want that at all is a different story altogether.) Also, Hussie on androgyny. He seems to be going a bit out of his way to be extra sensitive now. Honestly, this probably isn't that terrible a change (but it's ok Andrew, we don't think you're a bigot, you can calm down a bit) e: bad at spellins Starmaker fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Jan 24, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 10:22
|
|
|
Starmaker posted:Also, Hussie on androgeny. He seems to be going a bit out of his way to be extra sensitive now. Honestly, this probably isn't that terrible a change (but it's ok Andrew, we don't think you're a bigot, you can calm down a bit) On the other hand thon is a great word and now I want to drop it into all my sentences.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 10:25
|
|
|
Yeah, I'm honestly a little bemused at the assumption that Dirk being gay is "pandering," partly because "pandering" is the last thing I'd call Hussie as a writer and partly because just because a dude is gay doesn't mean he's fangirl bait. Nobody accused Hussie's confirmation of Kanaya being a lesbian as being fan bait, even though people were definitely theorizing that she was only into girls for a really long time before it was set in stone. I like that Dirk is gay, personally, and yeah this stuff goes back to way back when Bro was introduced and Hussie has said something about hints being strewn everywhere even back then, so I think accusing him of pandering to yaoi fangirls is a little silly.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 10:34
|
|
|
dumb brunette posted:I like that Dirk is gay, personally, and yeah this stuff goes back to way back when Bro was introduced and Hussie has said something about hints being strewn everywhere even back then, so I think accusing him of pandering to yaoi fangirls is a little silly. I know I said way back when the theory was really seeming to gain ground that I didn't want him to be gay (and then was called a homophobe, even though I'm gay myself...) and part of that was because I didn't want the kids being sexualized, in any way, and I guess him being gay made it closer to home. But it actually makes him a lot more relatable! Like, I see a lot of my own 16-year-oldness in his problems and struggles. Considering each of these kids apparently only has three friends, him being attracted to his only male friend doesn't seem that unlikely! And for a gay teenager, there is surprisingly large overlap between friends and romantic interests (actually that's probably true for any teenager regardless of orientation). I guess what I'm trying to say is I actually like this development, and for me it's a lot less about sex and romance than it is in someone having problems that I've been through myself. I feel sorta guilty enjoying this despite myself, but it's actually kinda nice being able to relate in a real way to even one of these ridiculous, larger-than-life characters.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 10:59
|
|
|
e: quote is not edit Might as well make use of this post then, VVVVVVV I agree and probably made myself sound like an rear end there, oops! I guess I just meant more that his motivation to talk on this issue was likely due to the recent past. It is good that he is doing this, and I didn't mean to criticize him for it! I just hope it is not only to dispel concerns or whatever and is actually sincere. If he learned a lesson/this has absolutely nothing to do with what happened before, then great! That is super great. Starmaker fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Jan 24, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 11:05
|
|
|
dumb brunette posted:Yeah, I'm honestly a little bemused at the assumption that Dirk being gay is "pandering," partly because "pandering" is the last thing I'd call Hussie as a writer and partly because just because a dude is gay doesn't mean he's fangirl bait. Nobody accused Hussie's confirmation of Kanaya being a lesbian as being fan bait, even though people were definitely theorizing that she was only into girls for a really long time before it was set in stone. Yeah. Plus it's real cool that as soon as we get a gay male character, and any attention is paid at all to his romantic interests/flirting (which was totally cool for the straight B2 characters - we can talk about their teenage flirting 'til the cows come home), it's all suddenly 'oh no pandering to the tumblr crowd, why can't he just shut up about it, and just don't mention it'. I get that we have some reason to doubt Hussie's ability to be really sensitive about issues, and maybe it would be better if he just didn't deal with Dirk's interests, but if he can write it funnily/convincingly/non-offensively, then I don't think we should basically erase gay people from the comic. Just because the tumblr crowd are baying at the door, doesn't mean we should ignore him. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I just think it's important to remember that it's not really OK to firmly shove a character's sexuality back into the closet and neuter him for any reason. quote:Also, Hussie on androgeny. He seems to be going a bit out of his way to be extra sensitive now. Honestly, this probably isn't that terrible a change (but it's ok Andrew, we don't think you're a bigot, you can calm down a bit) If he can write amusingly and informedly about this, in a non-offensive way - and I think the way he handles it here is pretty cool - then I don't think we should criticise that as 'extra sensitive', or 'getting fraught' about the issue - it's just being a decent person about pronouns.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 11:08
|
|
|
Starmaker posted:I know I said way back when the theory was really seeming to gain ground that I didn't want him to be gay (and then was called a homophobe, even though I'm gay myself...) and part of that was because I didn't want the kids being sexualized, in any way, and I guess him being gay made it closer to home. Having a character be gay doesn't 'sexualize' them any more than having them be straight, though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 11:17
|
|
|
I honestly don't care if Dirk is gay, straight, asexual, bi, or somehow, all of the above. I know this is selfish, but I just can't make myself care about teenage relationship angst. Back to the video game rule breaking and the universe destroying!
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 11:28
|
|
|
Pet grammar peeve here. :> English has widely-used, singular gender-neutral pronouns. "They" and "their." You can find examples of this usage in Shakespeare. It was correct hundreds of years before anyone thought to say it was incorrect. 18th century grammarians tried to ban this usage because Latin doesn't have an equivalent, but they failed. People have consistently used the singular "they" in published literature for nearly half a millennium. So if someone tells you that the "default" in English is "he," they're echoing an arbitrary rule made up by a stuffy prescriptivist two centuries ago. In real English, as it is used in virtually every field of published writing, the "default" or gender-neutral singular pronoun is "they."
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 11:37
|
|
|
The Sezza posted:Having a character be gay doesn't 'sexualize' them any more than having them be straight, though. I already went through all this. Basically what Bobulus said. I didn't care about any of it and the whole straight romance thing just seemed like a necessary shoehorned story element. Whether Dirk was straight or gay I didn't care, I didn't want to know about his romantic life (and him being gay made it closer to home, so I'd end up thinking about it despite myself). Except Hussie's actually fleshing this out a bit more and I've gotten over my reservations, their sexuality is actually a fairly important part of their characterization! Just look at Roxy. But yeah people basically misinterpreted what I said before and are apparently doing it again. I just can't talk about this stuff without somehow being offensive. e: ^^^^^ Yes that is true, and I remember learning in highschool that "he" was the default then unlearning that in university. The thing about "they" is that it's vague, and usually used for "gender unknown." A lot of the ze/zir/whatever intentions is that nowadays we're more aware of intersexed and transsexual people, where their gender is known and it is neither male nor female. "They" is for either, ze/zir/etc is for neither. Also, "they" is distancing and impersonal. No one would really want to be referred to as "they" in the singular. It's not nearly as bad as "it," which is downright dehumanizing, but it's much more distancing than "he" or "she." This is another thing these new terms seek to remedy. Starmaker fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Jan 24, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 11:42
|
|
|
Zoolooman posted:18th century grammarians tried to ban this usage because Latin doesn't have an equivalent, but they failed. People have consistently used the singular "they" in published literature for nearly half a millennium.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 11:43
|
|
|
Paul.Power posted:Between this and the taboos against split infinitives and ending sentences with prepositions, Latin-loving 18th century grammarians have a lot to answer for. No poo poo. Everything they banned is widely used. Certain ideas can only be expressed in English with a split infinitive. Many sentences ending with a preposition would become nonsense if they were shuffled to avoid the "mistake."
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 11:46
|
|
|
Starmaker posted:The thing about "they" is that it's vague, and usually used for "gender unknown." A lot of the ze/zir/whatever intentions is that nowadays we're more aware of intersexed and transsexual people, where their gender is known and it is neither male nor female. "They" is for either, ze/zir/etc is for neither. "They" isn't used for "gender unknown" and it is not vague. "They" is used to refer to any person without requiring reference to any gender whatsoever. Examples: "Why aren't you on the phone with the customer?" "They hung up." Certainly the speaker knows the gender of the customer, but they'll happily refer to them with a gender-neutral pronoun. "Who was at the door?" "Pizza delivery. I gave them a tip on your credit card." Again, the speaker knows the gender of the delivery person, but because the pronoun is referring to the gender-neutral noun, "pizza delivery," the speaker uses "them." This isn't an argument against the creation of pronouns indicating other gender states. I think we could use them. But if your reason for creating them is because we lack a gender-neutral singular pronoun? Then I'm telling you, that's not a good reason. Again, pet grammar peeve. Zooloo fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Jan 24, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 11:57
|
|
|
Not just the 18th century, really. The idea that prepositions are things with which one should not end sentences is thought to go back to John Dryden (who seems to have mostly invented it as an excuse to put down older authors) and the fear of split infinitives originates in the 19th century. See also: "which" vs. "that" and the bizarre - but frequently encountered - combination of railing against the passive voice and inability to distinguish passive constructions from active ones. I believe Strunk and White are to blame for the latter, at least. (Especially White.)
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 12:07
|
|
|
Just as you'd never use "he" or "she" to someone's face either, of course, but what about to their friends or anyone else who knows them? All your examples were for people who the speaker doesn't know. How do you refer to a friend who is intersexed or transgendered? I've been in this situation, generally they pick a preferred gender and you go with that. But it's not always that easy - many cultures have a third gender (just off-hand the hijra of India) but ours has no conception of it. It's a real thing and not everyone easily fits into one of the two categories. I'm not really a proponent of the new terms, nor am I particularly well-read on the subject, I just know the movement exists for a reason and it can't easily be dismissed on grammatical grounds. These people know the words "they/them/their" exist and can be used in this way, but they find that they fall short for a number of reasons. I was just trying to list the first few that came to mind. e: okay I get what you're saying. Yeah, saying the need for a gender-neutral pronoun is grammatical is pretty much incorrect, for the reasons you gave. The actual reason is more societal/connotative. But yeah it bugs me too when people try to give a grammatical/prescriptivist rationale, because that's pretty much their weakest argument. Okay I'm talking a lot and kinda derailing, but: Hamiltonian Bicycle posted:Not just the 18th century, really. The idea that prepositions are things with which one should not end sentences is thought to go back to John Dryden (who seems to have mostly invented it as an excuse to put down older authors) and the fear of split infinitives originates in the 19th century. I love the history of English grammar because it's so delightfully arbitrary. The split infinitive thing is because you can't split infinitives in Latin, and Latin is the perfect language, and English should model itself on it even though it's Germanic. So since Latin can't, English shouldn't (I also love that in the log between Jane and Roxy, Roxy calls Jane out on it then says it's a bullshit rule anyways. Delightful) Starmaker fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Jan 24, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 12:11
|
|
|
Starmaker posted:I know I said way back when the theory was really seeming to gain ground that I didn't want him to be gay (and then was called a homophobe, even though I'm gay myself...) and part of that was because I didn't want the kids being sexualized, in any way, and I guess him being gay made it closer to home. This sort of feeling is actually very common among LGBT people - I know it's why I always like seeing well-realised gay characters. It's also part of the reason why people tend to get a snippy about it being dismissed as sexualisation - there are a huge number of side benefits to having LGBT characters well-represented across the media spectrum, and this is one of them.  As far as gender pronouns go, I don't particularly like "they" since it feels like it depersonalises people a bit - there's no way of telling between the normal impersonal usage of "they" and the usage that takes the place of a gender pronoun. It's far better than nothing, and I suspect it's the only word with any hope of catching on, but in an ideal world I'd be happier with something like "ze".
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 13:35
|
|
|
Zoolooman posted:Pet grammar peeve here. :>  As for the alternative trigender pronouns: I'm not one to use them myself, but if someone wants to be called "ze" I wouldn't complain. I'm personally in the singular "they" crowd. On Dirk being gay: I actually kind of didn't notice at first, I was like, aww, he has feelings for Jake? That's kind of sweet. It took me a little moment at first to realize, yes, Dirk and Jake are both guys, and yes, this makes Dirk gay or bi. I don't think it's pandering to the yaoi fangirl community at all, just, you know, writing a character. Who happens to be gay. Or bi. On Kanaya being a lesbian: I haven't been following her sexuality very closely, but aren't all trolls bisexual with no concept of homosexuality or heterosexuality? If so then Rose may as well be a guy and Kanaya would still have the same feelings.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 16:39
|
|
|
Lady of the Beech posted:On Kanaya being a lesbian: I haven't been following her sexuality very closely, but aren't all trolls bisexual with no concept of homosexuality or heterosexuality? If so then Rose may as well be a guy and Kanaya would still have the same feelings. Trolls don't have a concept of homosexuality or heterosexuality, but they still have genders, and individuals still have tastes. Hussie kept comparing it to only dating fat people or tall people or something -- it's just how you roll, and people might notice the pattern but they're not gonna label you for it. They still have a Kinsey scale, there's just no societally-dictated "normal" place to be on it. Kanaya only likes the ladies, but this isn't really A Thing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 16:46
|
|
|
Lady of the Beech posted:On Kanaya being a lesbian: I haven't been following her sexuality very closely, but aren't all trolls bisexual with no concept of homosexuality or heterosexuality? If so then Rose may as well be a guy and Kanaya would still have the same feelings. Word of Huss is lesbian, but I'm right there with you. Granted, my gaydar is absolutely terrible, but it just never occurs to me to think of characters in terms of their sexual identity unless they wear it on their sleeve. And I don't think many of them have.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 16:46
|
|
|
Can we stop sperging about the sexuality of fictional characters for a bit and start sperging about the weird-rear end banner ad's that keep poping up on MSPA. Like this one!  Apparently it leads to something called "The Adventures Of Supermom: The Comic" and iv'e really got to say, I'm not sure I want to find out what's on the other side.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 16:47
|
|
|
I don't even have a dog in this fight in any way, but I always prefered "they" over "ze/zir" and the like for the sole reason that ze/zir/etc looks and sounds super dumb. It's like a four year old thought "You know what makes everything cooler? The letter Z!"
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 16:49
|
|
|
Aren't MSPA ads like really expensive or something? How/why exactly is the creator of The Adventures Of Supermom: The Comic shelling out the big bucks to promote... well, that?  e: VVVVVVVVVV Point of order: "sex" vs "gender." They definitely have genders because there are demonstrably girl trolls and boy trolls, and that's how Kanaya can still be a lesbian. Whether they have sexes is the thing we definitely don't wanna get into. loquacius fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jan 24, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 16:50
|
|
|
Lady of the Beech posted:On Kanaya being a lesbian: I haven't been following her sexuality very closely, but aren't all trolls bisexual with no concept of homosexuality or heterosexuality? If so then Rose may as well be a guy and Kanaya would still have the same feelings. But Kanaya is it, that's for sure. Even if she doesn't exactly know or specifically identify as a "lesbian" (because that's not even a word in troll language) she only appears to be attracted to... do trolls even really have genders what with how they reproduce? God let's not get into that debate--- female looking trolls and females of other sentient species it appears.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 16:50
|
|
|
loquacius posted:Aren't MSPA ads like really expensive or something? How/why exactly is the creator of The Adventures Of Supermom: The Comic shelling out the big bucks to promote... well, that? The ads for Project Wonderful are actually per-day rates. You give it a budget to work with and it drains that budget at the rate of one cent over the next-highest maximum bid when you have the highest bid. So you can give it five bucks and do your $500/day ad for like 15 minutes or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 16:55
|
|
|
Factory Factory posted:The ads for Project Wonderful are actually per-day rates. You give it a budget to work with and it drains that budget at the rate of one cent over the next-highest maximum bid when you have the highest bid. So you can give it five bucks and do your $500/day ad for like 15 minutes or whatever. That's great, except I've seen this ad for about three days stright now so either the price went down or the adventures of supermom has proven to be disturbingly succesful.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 17:02
|
|
|
I feel like Calmasis's popularity on Twitter has a lot to do with fan artists venting their frustration at not getting an ~xXelegant bishonenXx~ with Lord English. Like... Skaia's image board has 18 pages of LE's final design, which we've seen since around Halloween. Calmasis, who is at this point just a smug-looking piece of tangential foreshadowing, already has 8 pages and it's been what, a week?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 17:13
|
|
|
MechanicalTomPetty posted:That's great, except I've seen this ad for about three days stright now so either the price went down or the adventures of supermom has proven to be disturbingly succesful. It says the price right under the ad. Right now the horizontal ad right under the comic is only $25.20. The side ads like the one you posted are usually pretty cheap by comparison and right now are only $9.80. Looks like a good time to advertise horrible comics.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 17:35
|
|
|
If having a homosexual character whose orientation (which is, by the way, a far less loaded word than "sexuality") plays a non-zero role in his characterization or narrative panders to people who may or may not go 'Squee!' on Tumblr, then I can only loving assume he has been pandering to the rest of his audience for loving years every time a straight character had any sort of interaction that could even conceivably been about his orientation, overtly or peripherally. It's a two way street, and it's also a ludicrous concept on it's face.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 17:42
|
|
|
I am perfectly willing to believe that Dirk's orientation initially came about because Andrew thought it would be funny for all of Jake's friends to be crushing on him, and then grew from there.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 17:46
|
|
|
I suspect it may have come around from Bro being obsessed with giant dick-nosed puppets with huge asses, moving from a one-note joke when he was a silent, abstracted figure for Dave to contrast himself against to an actual personality trait once he became a protagonist with character development beyond "anime shades and irony".
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 17:50
|
|
|
Prison Warden posted:I don't even have a dog in this fight in any way, but I always prefered "they" over "ze/zir" and the like for the sole reason that ze/zir/etc looks and sounds super dumb. It's like a four year old thought "You know what makes everything cooler? The letter Z!" This isn't a thing. Please tell me this isn't something that somebody tried to start. MechanicalTomPetty posted:Can we stop sperging about the sexuality of fictional characters for a bit and start sperging about the weird-rear end banner ad's that keep poping up on MSPA.  Then I found what the ad actually links to  Now I just don't know what the gently caresse2:Somebody who thinks this is true in any way is fortunate enough to have avoided most of the internet. Mr. D Bewildering fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Jan 24, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 17:52
|
|
|
Nope its totally real. My favorite part is that despite having a supposably gender neutral pronoun in Ze, they still find the need to have a feminine equivalent of Zir. If its a gender neutral pronoun why would you need two of them? I understand the need for a gender neutral pronoun, but they works just fine. The only problem with they is that is sounds like a plural form most of the time, so for example, I have been told we were waiting for "them" to arrive and been surprised when only one person showed up.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 18:10
|
|
|
Talorat posted:Nope its totally real. My favorite part is that despite having a supposably gender neutral pronoun in Ze, they still find the need to have a feminine equivalent of Zir. If its a gender neutral pronoun why would you need two of them? Whoever came up with it certainly has their (heh) heart in the right place. But I really can't help but think of Yivo when I read about it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 18:13
|
|
|
Is there any chance that Dirk's browser/denizen won't be Eros?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 18:52
|
|
|
creationist believer posted:Is there any chance that Dirk's browser/denizen won't be Eros? I'm betting on Galatea.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 18:59
|
|
|
AR's lamentations of being "Just glasses" makes me hope all the more that he somehow gets prototyped with the (eventual) remains of the Brobot.creationist believer posted:Is there any chance that Dirk's browser/denizen won't be Eros? This almost feels like it's too obvious. I'm not sure whether that fact makes it more likely or less likely. Cabbit posted:I'm betting on Galatea. This one is pretty good too.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 19:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 04:02 |
|
|
Lady of the Beech posted:A fellow descriptivist! Hi-loving-five! Descriptive grammar is like an intellectual frog hunt through a verbal jungle. English has very loose grammatical structures with the capacity for an almost endless nesting of constructions. Whole ideas are commonly shoved into the predicate of a passive construction. Rewriting that last sentence to prove it: It's common to shove whole ideas into the predicate of a passive construction.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2012 19:52
|
|